Do you think I can persuade them from their baptist think or their catholic speak ? no way nellie. !
This may be a little - But I don't think any of us need to go out an convert Christians away from their beliefs. Where the hell did we ever get the idea we need to convert Christians to a more "accurate" (which is not more accurate) form of "Christianity?" Bingo - the way international. In the book of Acts, largely with few exceptions, we see people growing in understanding and relationship with the Lord without someone coming along and telling them how inaccurately wrong they are. I don't even get that impression from Priscilla / Aquilla and Apollos when they taught him. Sounds like to me they had something to teach and laid it out there. Relationship with fellow Christians comes to mind. Everyone has a psalm, doctrine, etc.
Now, with that said there are doctrines in the way international that are ungodly, and binding to the one holding the beliefs, and need to be dumped. An example is the law of believing. I suffered a lot of mental and emotional damage at the hands of that lie when my child was born with health problems. Why? Obviously, if you follow that teaching, it was my fault for believing to bring it on myself, or not having the believing to protect us from it in the first place. Repudiating that garbage has allowed me to quit condemning myself and cope with life, gaining peace in this situation so my wife and I can be the best parents for our child.
They went back in and now never talk to anybody outside any more, and have sunk right back into delusion land.
They call that "Being not unequally yoked with unbelievers."
It's always amazed me that The Way completely disgreards "love thy neighbor as thyself" in word and deed. In fact some of them take it a step further, making disparaging remarks of those not in The Way,... with pride.
They don't really seem to care about what God was asked them to do in this regard, nor do they attempt to follow Christ's example in these matters.
It's always amazed me that The Way completely disgreards "love thy neighbor as thyself" in word and deed. In fact some of them take it a step further, making disparaging remarks of those not in The Way,... with pride.
They don't really seem to care about what God was asked them to do in this regard, nor do they attempt to follow Christ's example in these matters.
They are too busy being arrogant about all they think they know to have time for love, or to even know what it is.
They are too busy being arrogant about all they think they know to have time for love, or to even know what it is.
The Bible says that God is Love... the Way says God can only give "that which He is which is spirit." They don't talk about God giving Love much at all.
And their definition for agape love is completely convoluted and confusing.
You're right, OldSkool. They don't know what it is, and they don't love. In my mind, that means that they don't know God, either.
It's always amazed me that The Way completely disgreards "love thy neighbor as thyself" in word and deed. In fact some of them take it a step further, making disparaging remarks of those not in The Way,... with pride.
If I remember correctly, and maybe it was isolated or a faulty memory (I hope not, I'm still young!).. But I recall when I first got hooked up with TWI that they said the "love thy neighbor" didn't refer to anyone except those in the "household".. That somehow the "neighbor" part was used to signify they were in the "household"... Anyone else hear that?
Clearly this isn't true since Jesus himself clarifies who thy "neighbor" referred to when he shared the story of the Good Samaritan... Yeah, those lowly Samaritans who you hate.. Those who believe differently.. Go figure. Your neighbors!
Sometimes I just stop and wonder how I was so blind!! DOH!
God is also light . . . so love=spirit=light
Ahh, but God is invisible.. So Love=Spirit=Light=Invisible Light, Invisible Spirit, and Invisible Love...
TWI --- said --- "love thy neighbor" didn't refer to anyone except those in the "household".. That somehow the "neighbor" part was used to signify they were in the "household"... Anyone else hear that?
This may be a little - But I don't think any of us need to go out an convert Christians away from their beliefs. Where the hell did we ever get the idea we need to convert Christians to a more "accurate" (which is not more accurate) form of "Christianity?" Bingo - the way international. In the book of Acts, largely with few exceptions, we see people growing in understanding and relationship with the Lord without someone coming along and telling them how inaccurately wrong they are. I don't even get that impression from Priscilla / Aquilla and Apollos when they taught him. Sounds like to me they had something to teach and laid it out there. Relationship with fellow Christians comes to mind. Everyone has a psalm, doctrine, etc.
Now, with that said there are doctrines in the way international that are ungodly, and binding to the one holding the beliefs, and need to be dumped. An example is the law of believing. I suffered a lot of mental and emotional damage at the hands of that lie when my child was born with health problems. Why? Obviously, if you follow that teaching, it was my fault for believing to bring it on myself, or not having the believing to protect us from it in the first place. Repudiating that garbage has allowed me to quit condemning myself and cope with life, gaining peace in this situation so my wife and I can be the best parents for our child.
I thought converting other Christians was a bad idea. I told a lot of people who were unchurched to find a church, particularly if I felt they needed pastoring. TWI was (and is) not a pastoring organization. I really didn't feel like I needed a lot of pastoring, so the lack of it didn't bother me too much.
But when I did need it and didn't get it, my whole attitude about TWI changed.
We too had a baby who ended up having health issues. We (me in particular) were blamed and when I needed my twig, no one was there even after I told them that my take on the situation was completely different. 1. I had been told that I would probably never be able to have another baby and miraculously I got pregnant and stayed pregnant. 2. In the middle of my pregnancy, my husband changed jobs and the medical benefits were fabulous compared to his last job. Treatment for our baby that would have cost us several thousand dollars on his old plan, didn't cost us a dime, which was a miracle. Plus we were told that if he did live that he would probably suffer permanent brain damage, but he didn't. The doctors who treated him told us that his recovery was absolutely a miracle.
Furthermore, as I was being maligned by my "church" family for his health issues, being ignored and shut out, both of our families came to our aid and we were all marveling at how all of these things had fallen into place. The contrast was an eye opener.
I never forgot how I was treated by my church family and that colored every subsequent decision involving TWI.
I'm going to try to bring this back to topic.
Prior to taking PFAL, I probably would not have reacted the way I did. I used to have a fairly high tolerance for that kind of behavior towards me, but I think PFAL got me to actually read the bible and I saw that behavior for what it was. Based upon what I have read here at GSC, I think taking any subsequent classes beyond PFAL wiped out any benefit received from PFAL (which for me was a system of study - flawed as it is). I never took the advanced class and that decision was on the advice of my husband who had taken it before we met. He had taken everything and he never encouraged me to take any further classes beyond PFAL, which he paid for, and I really didn't care to. PFAL was mind numbingly boring and that didn't get me excited about taking anything else.
For me, taking PFAL was a step towards a normal life that I longed for. However, as I observed others, the more classes someone took, it appeared to me that they took a step away from my idea of normal. I didn't want that. There were enough people that we were in contact with that felt the same way that I didn't feel entirely left out.
I never felt led (by the spirit) to take it any further than I did and I never got far enough along in my understanding of "the word" to find out that only leadership could properly lead me.
Twinky winky, luv ya sis, but please bear in mind (some) of us left twi the organization, not necessarily the Word fostered by twi. Me personally, I love most if not all my fellow Christians, but I CRINGE when I hear them saying things like God 'took' so & so home to heaven, or you must be water baptized to be truly saved, or you must keep working to keep your salvation, or you've only been given one of the gifts of the spirit etc.. you know what I mean ??!! Do you think I can persuade them from their baptist think or their catholic speak ? no way nellie. !
Poly,
You know, I don't cringe any more hearing things like that. I don't believe the statements are accurate, but many times people talking about God 'taking someone home' is in more direct need of comfort over accuracy. I've seen a church do water baptisms that are more a membership rite - joining the church. People saying you need to work to keep salvation are at least concerned with living a Christian life and are far better than the TWI examples at high levels that use grace as a license for their vast egos. Gifts of the spirit, people are just unfamiliar with the concept and terms and usually are talking about genetic talent or interests.
So the cringe factor is pretty much gone. Now if we get into Bible studies together on these topics, or get into a more deep conversation about scriptures, absolutely I'll present viewpoints and scriptural references.
But altogether too often in TWI we used knowledge as an excuse for an elitist Christian bigotry of sorts, called accosting people and correcting them 'witnessing', and acted like a bunch of punks in general.
They call that "Being not unequally yoked with unbelievers."
Actually with people like us it's more than that. The roots of this stem in the teachings about 'following the man of God' in Paul's epistles. VPW taught 'the 4 steps down', with the first being turning away from the man of God. They also teach verses in Timothy that people give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and that's why they leave 'the household'. So with scriptural teachings like this, it takes very few outright lies about someone (which TWI leaders are very happy to provide) to trigger the shunning behavior.
The problem with all of this is that it really is a system of lies re-inforcing the megalomaniac behavior of the few at the top.
And the logic is just beyond retarded. For example, a guy leaves the ministry because the president is committing adultery with his wife. He's the one possessed? Really? Another girl is committing adultery with the president. Her husband commits suicide. She marries another in TWI and remains. But she's not the one influenced by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils? Really?
The current BOD chase people out, treat them harshly, play politics, refuse to listen to scripture when confronted with it, frame decisions all around this whole 'following the man of God' concept. And when you look at it rationally, the same scriptures and behavior is found in many extremist cult-like groups. But TWI is the only one right? Really? Because they now enshrine the works of a known drunk, plagiarist, and adulterer? Really?
You know one of the things I do appreciate learning from TWI was the advice of Uncle Harry, when he shared that the Word of God is good common horse sense. And when I apply that standard to what I observe, when something starts smelling more like horse $h1t as opposed to sounding like horse sense, it leads me to the conclusion that what is going on there is not the Word of God.
Several posters have commented on people who have left TWI but haven't left TWI doctrine...you wonder why they left, then.
It really depends on why one left.
I left TWI in 1983 for seven years. The reason that I left had absolutely nothing to do with the teachings, but had everything to do with being treated badly by leadership. I did not attribute this to a pattern, but to this person alone. Because of this, I retained most, if not all the TWI teachings.
When I left again in 2001, I had spent over a year examining TWI doctrines in detail and had lost my confidence in them. I had also seen via Waydale & Grease Spot how the abusive leadership that I experienced was not an aberration, but just the way it was. So when I left the organization I had a lot less waybrain than I had the first time.
Thanx for all the comments, but i don't recall mentioning my trying to 'convert' other Christians ? I don't even try to have 'in-depth communication' with them concerning doctrine ( unless they bring it up, I can't even be bothered) I don't think I even said I kept ALL twi doctrine. Can I not simply be someone who left twi but still enjoys aspects of what I learn't ? or do I have to be a twi AND it's doctrine hater to be accepted here ?? I'm confused.
Thanx for all the comments, but i don't recall mentioning my trying to 'convert' other Christians ? I don't even try to have 'in-depth communication' with them concerning doctrine ( unless they bring it up, I can't even be bothered) I don't think I even said I kept ALL twi doctrine. Can I not simply be someone who left twi but still enjoys aspects of what I learn't ? or do I have to be a twi AND it's doctrine hater to be accepted here ?? I'm confused.
I don't recall you mentioning that either. Yes you can simply be someone who left twi but still enjoys aspects of what you learned. That probably is true of everyone on this site to one degree or another. No you don't absolutely have to hate twi and all it's doctrine to be accepted here, not that being accepted here is any great accomplishment or anything.
You already have a lot going for you and some good respect. You left in-rez due to your own integrety when you encountered some of the evil we speak of. That's formidable. You already shared some great aspects of that and life as a kiwi in twi that we haven't heard around here. That's awesome too.
Don't worry about little disagreements in posts around here. They don't amount to a big deal at all.
If I remember correctly, and maybe it was isolated or a faulty memory (I hope not, I'm still young!).. But I recall when I first got hooked up with TWI that they said the "love thy neighbor" didn't refer to anyone except those in the "household".. That somehow the "neighbor" part was used to signify they were in the "household"... Anyone else hear that?
. . .
Yeah, I believe I remember, fuzzily. . . lcm saying if, for example, two people need help, one's a believer, one's not. . . we are to be especially good unto the household.
Course he always stomped his foot and pumped his fist on the word "household".
Yeah, I believe I remember, fuzzily. . . lcm saying if, for example, two people need help, one's a believer, one's not. . . we are to be especially good unto the household.
Course he always stomped his foot and pumped his fist on the word "household".
'scuze me if I barf at some of the ideas the Forehead had about what consisted of 'being especially good to the household'.
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Pax
When I took the advanced class; it was mostly a lot of superstitious stuff about devil spirits.... probably still is. How people can take that stuff seriously can only be understood by those of us wh
OldSkool
This may be a little
- But I don't think any of us need to go out an convert Christians away from their beliefs. Where the hell did we ever get the idea we need to convert Christians to a more "accurate" (which is not more accurate) form of "Christianity?" Bingo - the way international. In the book of Acts, largely with few exceptions, we see people growing in understanding and relationship with the Lord without someone coming along and telling them how inaccurately wrong they are. I don't even get that impression from Priscilla / Aquilla and Apollos when they taught him. Sounds like to me they had something to teach and laid it out there. Relationship with fellow Christians comes to mind. Everyone has a psalm, doctrine, etc.
Now, with that said there are doctrines in the way international that are ungodly, and binding to the one holding the beliefs, and need to be dumped. An example is the law of believing. I suffered a lot of mental and emotional damage at the hands of that lie when my child was born with health problems. Why? Obviously, if you follow that teaching, it was my fault for believing to bring it on myself, or not having the believing to protect us from it in the first place. Repudiating that garbage has allowed me to quit condemning myself and cope with life, gaining peace in this situation so my wife and I can be the best parents for our child.
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Gen-2
It's always amazed me that The Way completely disgreards "love thy neighbor as thyself" in word and deed. In fact some of them take it a step further, making disparaging remarks of those not in The Way,... with pride.
They don't really seem to care about what God was asked them to do in this regard, nor do they attempt to follow Christ's example in these matters.
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OldSkool
They are too busy being arrogant about all they think they know to have time for love, or to even know what it is.
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JavaJane
The Bible says that God is Love... the Way says God can only give "that which He is which is spirit." They don't talk about God giving Love much at all.
And their definition for agape love is completely convoluted and confusing.
You're right, OldSkool. They don't know what it is, and they don't love. In my mind, that means that they don't know God, either.
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Bolshevik
God is also light . . . so love=spirit=light
that's why you cleaned things till they shined . . . so God could manifest his love . . . till the adversary got it dirty again.
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OldSkool
How could they thinking that Christ is absent!
ROFLMAO!!
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Gen-2
Very good Bolshevik! That made me laugh as well! :)
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TrustAndObey
If I remember correctly, and maybe it was isolated or a faulty memory (I hope not, I'm still young!).. But I recall when I first got hooked up with TWI that they said the "love thy neighbor" didn't refer to anyone except those in the "household".. That somehow the "neighbor" part was used to signify they were in the "household"... Anyone else hear that?
Clearly this isn't true since Jesus himself clarifies who thy "neighbor" referred to when he shared the story of the Good Samaritan... Yeah, those lowly Samaritans who you hate.. Those who believe differently.. Go figure. Your neighbors!
Sometimes I just stop and wonder how I was so blind!! DOH!
Ahh, but God is invisible.. So Love=Spirit=Light=Invisible Light, Invisible Spirit, and Invisible Love...
That was TWI training 102.
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waysider
Too many more times than I care to admit.
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Tzaia
I thought converting other Christians was a bad idea. I told a lot of people who were unchurched to find a church, particularly if I felt they needed pastoring. TWI was (and is) not a pastoring organization. I really didn't feel like I needed a lot of pastoring, so the lack of it didn't bother me too much.
But when I did need it and didn't get it, my whole attitude about TWI changed.
We too had a baby who ended up having health issues. We (me in particular) were blamed and when I needed my twig, no one was there even after I told them that my take on the situation was completely different. 1. I had been told that I would probably never be able to have another baby and miraculously I got pregnant and stayed pregnant. 2. In the middle of my pregnancy, my husband changed jobs and the medical benefits were fabulous compared to his last job. Treatment for our baby that would have cost us several thousand dollars on his old plan, didn't cost us a dime, which was a miracle. Plus we were told that if he did live that he would probably suffer permanent brain damage, but he didn't. The doctors who treated him told us that his recovery was absolutely a miracle.
Furthermore, as I was being maligned by my "church" family for his health issues, being ignored and shut out, both of our families came to our aid and we were all marveling at how all of these things had fallen into place. The contrast was an eye opener.
I never forgot how I was treated by my church family and that colored every subsequent decision involving TWI.
I'm going to try to bring this back to topic.
Prior to taking PFAL, I probably would not have reacted the way I did. I used to have a fairly high tolerance for that kind of behavior towards me, but I think PFAL got me to actually read the bible and I saw that behavior for what it was. Based upon what I have read here at GSC, I think taking any subsequent classes beyond PFAL wiped out any benefit received from PFAL (which for me was a system of study - flawed as it is). I never took the advanced class and that decision was on the advice of my husband who had taken it before we met. He had taken everything and he never encouraged me to take any further classes beyond PFAL, which he paid for, and I really didn't care to. PFAL was mind numbingly boring and that didn't get me excited about taking anything else.
For me, taking PFAL was a step towards a normal life that I longed for. However, as I observed others, the more classes someone took, it appeared to me that they took a step away from my idea of normal. I didn't want that. There were enough people that we were in contact with that felt the same way that I didn't feel entirely left out.
I never felt led (by the spirit) to take it any further than I did and I never got far enough along in my understanding of "the word" to find out that only leadership could properly lead me.
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Gen-2
Oh well - yanno,.... even if it had meant that neighbor = household..... Jesus said "love your enemies"
And
William O'Daniel’s Irish New Testament
An Soisgeul do Réir Lucais
Caibidil 6
28. Tabhruidh bhur mbeannachd don dreim mhalluigheas sibh, agus déunuidh urrnaÃghe ar son na muinntire do nà bhur ndÃoghbháil.
King James Bible
The Gospel of Luke
Chapter 6
28. Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
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chockfull
Poly,
You know, I don't cringe any more hearing things like that. I don't believe the statements are accurate, but many times people talking about God 'taking someone home' is in more direct need of comfort over accuracy. I've seen a church do water baptisms that are more a membership rite - joining the church. People saying you need to work to keep salvation are at least concerned with living a Christian life and are far better than the TWI examples at high levels that use grace as a license for their vast egos. Gifts of the spirit, people are just unfamiliar with the concept and terms and usually are talking about genetic talent or interests.
So the cringe factor is pretty much gone. Now if we get into Bible studies together on these topics, or get into a more deep conversation about scriptures, absolutely I'll present viewpoints and scriptural references.
But altogether too often in TWI we used knowledge as an excuse for an elitist Christian bigotry of sorts, called accosting people and correcting them 'witnessing', and acted like a bunch of punks in general.
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Tzaia
Which I did - while I was saying no, not interested.
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chockfull
Actually with people like us it's more than that. The roots of this stem in the teachings about 'following the man of God' in Paul's epistles. VPW taught 'the 4 steps down', with the first being turning away from the man of God. They also teach verses in Timothy that people give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and that's why they leave 'the household'. So with scriptural teachings like this, it takes very few outright lies about someone (which TWI leaders are very happy to provide) to trigger the shunning behavior.
The problem with all of this is that it really is a system of lies re-inforcing the megalomaniac behavior of the few at the top.
And the logic is just beyond retarded. For example, a guy leaves the ministry because the president is committing adultery with his wife. He's the one possessed? Really? Another girl is committing adultery with the president. Her husband commits suicide. She marries another in TWI and remains. But she's not the one influenced by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils? Really?
The current BOD chase people out, treat them harshly, play politics, refuse to listen to scripture when confronted with it, frame decisions all around this whole 'following the man of God' concept. And when you look at it rationally, the same scriptures and behavior is found in many extremist cult-like groups. But TWI is the only one right? Really? Because they now enshrine the works of a known drunk, plagiarist, and adulterer? Really?
You know one of the things I do appreciate learning from TWI was the advice of Uncle Harry, when he shared that the Word of God is good common horse sense. And when I apply that standard to what I observe, when something starts smelling more like horse $h1t as opposed to sounding like horse sense, it leads me to the conclusion that what is going on there is not the Word of God.
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Oakspear
I left TWI in 1983 for seven years. The reason that I left had absolutely nothing to do with the teachings, but had everything to do with being treated badly by leadership. I did not attribute this to a pattern, but to this person alone. Because of this, I retained most, if not all the TWI teachings.
When I left again in 2001, I had spent over a year examining TWI doctrines in detail and had lost my confidence in them. I had also seen via Waydale & Grease Spot how the abusive leadership that I experienced was not an aberration, but just the way it was. So when I left the organization I had a lot less waybrain than I had the first time.
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polynesian
Thanx for all the comments, but i don't recall mentioning my trying to 'convert' other Christians ? I don't even try to have 'in-depth communication' with them concerning doctrine ( unless they bring it up, I can't even be bothered) I don't think I even said I kept ALL twi doctrine. Can I not simply be someone who left twi but still enjoys aspects of what I learn't ? or do I have to be a twi AND it's doctrine hater to be accepted here ?? I'm confused.
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chockfull
I don't recall you mentioning that either. Yes you can simply be someone who left twi but still enjoys aspects of what you learned. That probably is true of everyone on this site to one degree or another. No you don't absolutely have to hate twi and all it's doctrine to be accepted here, not that being accepted here is any great accomplishment or anything.
You already have a lot going for you and some good respect. You left in-rez due to your own integrety when you encountered some of the evil we speak of. That's formidable. You already shared some great aspects of that and life as a kiwi
in twi that we haven't heard around here. That's awesome too.
Don't worry about little disagreements in posts around here. They don't amount to a big deal at all.
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waysider
Sometimes we're a touchy bunch here, we are, we are.
Glad you've decided to join our little party, I am, I am.
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Bolshevik
Yeah, I believe I remember, fuzzily. . . lcm saying if, for example, two people need help, one's a believer, one's not. . . we are to be especially good unto the household.
Course he always stomped his foot and pumped his fist on the word "household".
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chockfull
'scuze me if I barf at some of the ideas the Forehead had about what consisted of 'being especially good to the household'.
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Bolshevik
He was a show for torment.
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cheranne
Just how much BULL CRAP are these people gonna pack into there brain,on and on and on.....lies.
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Kevlar2000
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JavaJane
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