Teachme, I believe the "something better" in Hebrews 11:40 was the coming Kingdom on earth promised in the OT and the better city, the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked for. There will be the heavenly Jerusalem descending to earth.
I love the book of Hebrews - its an amazing book on our Savior and what he did. Hebrews was written to the Jew and Gentile showing Christ as High Priest.
Here's a list somewhere you may like, I forgot where I got it, but I've kept it in the back of my bible over the last few years.
I. Kingdom Offered - the gospels "Repent, for the Kingdom is at Hand."
II. Kingdom Re-offered to Israel - Acts. The re-offer was ended at Acts 28:28 because, "He came unto His own and His own received him not."
During Acts:
A. Epistles written by the Apostles to the Jews only:
James - Works as outcome of faith
I Peter - Suffering and Glory
II Peter - Prophecy and Day of the Lord
I John - Fellowship
II John - The Truth
III John - Hospitality
B. Epistles written by Paul to Jew and Gentile - during time of RE-offer to Israel. The Gentiel is grafted in, the middle wall in the temple is still,
literally up.
The Jew is First ("To the Jew First")
Romans - Justification by faith - Jew and Gentile
I Corinthians - Carnality and spiritual things
II Corinthians - Ministry and comfort
Galations - Cross of Christ
I Thessalonians - the Coming (Parousia)
II Thessalonians - The revelation from Heaven
Hebrews - Christ as High Priest
III. Kingdom held in abeyance - Acts 28:28 until the "Lord's Day" (Book of Revelation). Israel blinded, Salvation sent to Gentiles.
A. Gospel of the Dispensation of the Mystery
To Gentiles - who's hope is in the heavenlies, or literally, "above the heavens" in "Glory" This truth not found in Moses, prophets, nor in
ministries of Christ or the 12.
Ephesians - In Christ - Heavenly citizenship, blessings and walk
Philippians - Christ within, prize of the High calling
Colossians - Complete in him, Christ as the Head
I Timothy - Doctrine and Godliness
II Timothy - The Crown - these last days (of the grace administration)
Titus - Soundness, Hope
Philemon - Christian Forgiveness.
IV. Kingdom Accepted. The Day of the Lord. From Israel's repentence to the deliverance of the Kingdom to the Father. Promise of life fulfilled.
Ends in New Heaven and New Earth in which dwells righteousness.
Revelation. All prophecy fulfilled. Completes the beginning of Genesis. We now step off into eternity... :)
This is just a list I found somewhere, but I kind of like it. Do I agree with all of it - no, but its a handy little guide and outline. Hope you enjoy it Teachme.
Could that "Above the heavens" in Glory; the north is above all the heavens, because of what is in the north of the north, Yahweh's tent is there, his throne is there, the 24 elders are their. All the angles except for the 1/3 and those that left their first station, are all sitting in the east and west recesses of the north?
This thing in Isa. 14:13; Job 26:7; Ps 75:6- Promotion comes from the north; the immediate place of Yahweh's throne, to which Satan aspires; has anyone stumbled across any of this north stuff?
Trying to build on what Sunesis said, "The laws of physics as we know them will be folded up" if one was standing on the southern egde of the north, looking into the abode, has anyone stumble a crossed, what that new earth looks like?
Did (all of) the early Christians turn away from Paul? This presupposes that the early Christians were a monolithic group that all believed the same thing and that Paul's teachings represented this "same thing".
Did (all of) the early Christians turn away from Paul? This presupposes that the early Christians were a monolithic group that all believed the same thing and that Paul's teachings represented this "same thing".
No, it says "all they which dwell in Asia. The assumption is that Paul is speaking of the church in Asia which would make sense since that is where he carried out the bulk of his ministry. TWI taught that Asia was the known world at that time but there was also Macedonia, Northern Africa, Rome, and probably other places.
I have always found it interesting that the Catholic Church were avid followers of the 12 apostles. Apostolic succession was, and still is, very important to them. They were not followers of Paul.
Thus, you see the Catholics have built their earthly kingdom and at various stages have tried to rule the known world - because they have appropriated Israel's hope (you shall inherit the earth) for their own and applied it to the church of the grace administration.
I have often wondered what Christianity would be like today if they had followed Paul's revelation.
Although, in some ways, that's what was so revolutionary about Luther. He rejected much of the Catholic doctrine. But the problem with Protestantism is you have literally, almost 33,000 denominations - while the Catholics chug along with only one body.
Augustine was a Pauline follower, so were several other early "church fathers" but later, the leadership reverted back to following the 12 apostles and taking the doctrine that was meant for Israel and applying it to the church of the one body.
Interesting food for thought. If they had stuck with Paul, would there have been a crusades? Would there be "warriors" for Christ? Paul taught after the Mystery had been revealed we are to "stand" against the wiles of the adversary and pray - we have been given power to do that - not go out and kill and convert and rule the world (as Israel will do under Christ someday when he returns - see what happens when doctrine gets mixed up?).
If Paul had been followed and people realized their hope was in heaven, would they be going on crusades or inquisitions killing people? Would they not have realized earthly government is just that - earthly government - man trying to keep order. There is nothing spiritual about it. Sometimes we get good ones, sometimes evil ones. We can read the OT to see everything from judges to Kings to Moses - differing types of governments, then ancient rome, greek - Emperors, etc. Man experiments.
I tend to think there is a difference in result depending which view you follow. If you follow Israel's hope - as was made available for Gentiles to be grafted into, you know the earth will be yours someday, so why not try and make as much of it as you can yours - now? If there had been no revelation of that mystery - that would be the logical way to go - follow the commission of the apostles. Many people have this.
If you understand that Israel has been put in abeyance and God and Christ are dealing with the Gentile and one new creation in this age, and our home is heavenly - would we not be a bit more gentle and forgiving as Christians as we look up - to the heavens, instead of to the earth?
Neither Second Temple Judaism nor the Christianity that sprang from it were monolithic. Paul may have felt that the Asian Christians had turned away from him personally, but that doesn't mean they turned away from Christ, or even away from a Pauline form of gentile Christianity. Paul's writings were certainly saved and read in the churches.
All of the churches addressed in Revelation toward the end of the first century were in Asia. In fact, one of them was at Ephesus. There could have been older people sitting in the congregation at Ephesus listening to John's messenger delivering Revelation, who could remember sitting in the same congregation as youngsters listening to Paul's messenger deliver Ephesians.
The body of Christ was much vaster in the 20th century than Wierwille and TWI ever imagined. The same thing was true of the 1st century.
It seems evident that as Paul wrote to several churches, some were perhaps complete failures and some were not. Thus it really depends on to whom were the words specifically concerning.
Also most historical biblical scholars don't believe that 1 or 2 Timothy were written by Paul... Though some say second Timothy might have been written by Paul. Most concur that first Timothy was not written by Paul.
In particular the church of Galatia is not mentioned as being a success. Consider that Galatia was in modern day Turkey and would have had considerable conflicts with the tribes of Ishmael.
As we see today with Sharia law, Galatians apparently did not free them from "the law"...
No, it says "all they which dwell in Asia. The assumption is that Paul is speaking of the church in Asia which would make sense since that is where he carried out the bulk of his ministry. TWI taught that Asia was the known world at that time but there was also Macedonia, Northern Africa, Rome, and probably other places.
Yup, good point...to derail just a teensy bit...Wierwille taught that Asia = Asia Minor, i.e. Turkey, when "Asia" was a province of Rome, that included Ephesus and was only a small part of what we now call Turkey.
Could we get to consumed, by who wrote all this stuff down; should we focus on what Paul announced? But then again, how do we know what was announced? Sunesis left us a helpful guide a while back in this tread, that could help find your answer to your question, who wrote this down there?
It has been established that Paul made an announcement, I am telling that same announcement to dump that spirit teaching; do not play with the announcements?
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Sunesis
Yes, they did. Remember, Isreal rejected its Messiah, and the "last call" so to speak of the Apostles, that if Israel repented, Christ was ready to come back in his glory and they would enter the boo
cman
So what? I don't think Paul's intent was to have anyone turn towards him. Only to hear him out, I would suppose, and not some sort of following as indicated. Furthering my questioning of the reliab
Sunesis
Teachme, I believe the "something better" in Hebrews 11:40 was the coming Kingdom on earth promised in the OT and the better city, the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked for. There will be the heavenl
Sunesis
Teachme, I believe the "something better" in Hebrews 11:40 was the coming Kingdom on earth promised in the OT and the better city, the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked for. There will be the heavenly Jerusalem descending to earth.
I love the book of Hebrews - its an amazing book on our Savior and what he did. Hebrews was written to the Jew and Gentile showing Christ as High Priest.
Here's a list somewhere you may like, I forgot where I got it, but I've kept it in the back of my bible over the last few years.
I. Kingdom Offered - the gospels "Repent, for the Kingdom is at Hand."
II. Kingdom Re-offered to Israel - Acts. The re-offer was ended at Acts 28:28 because, "He came unto His own and His own received him not."
During Acts:
A. Epistles written by the Apostles to the Jews only:
James - Works as outcome of faith
I Peter - Suffering and Glory
II Peter - Prophecy and Day of the Lord
I John - Fellowship
II John - The Truth
III John - Hospitality
B. Epistles written by Paul to Jew and Gentile - during time of RE-offer to Israel. The Gentiel is grafted in, the middle wall in the temple is still,
literally up.
The Jew is First ("To the Jew First")
Romans - Justification by faith - Jew and Gentile
I Corinthians - Carnality and spiritual things
II Corinthians - Ministry and comfort
Galations - Cross of Christ
I Thessalonians - the Coming (Parousia)
II Thessalonians - The revelation from Heaven
Hebrews - Christ as High Priest
III. Kingdom held in abeyance - Acts 28:28 until the "Lord's Day" (Book of Revelation). Israel blinded, Salvation sent to Gentiles.
A. Gospel of the Dispensation of the Mystery
To Gentiles - who's hope is in the heavenlies, or literally, "above the heavens" in "Glory" This truth not found in Moses, prophets, nor in
ministries of Christ or the 12.
Ephesians - In Christ - Heavenly citizenship, blessings and walk
Philippians - Christ within, prize of the High calling
Colossians - Complete in him, Christ as the Head
I Timothy - Doctrine and Godliness
II Timothy - The Crown - these last days (of the grace administration)
Titus - Soundness, Hope
Philemon - Christian Forgiveness.
IV. Kingdom Accepted. The Day of the Lord. From Israel's repentence to the deliverance of the Kingdom to the Father. Promise of life fulfilled.
Ends in New Heaven and New Earth in which dwells righteousness.
Revelation. All prophecy fulfilled. Completes the beginning of Genesis. We now step off into eternity... :)
This is just a list I found somewhere, but I kind of like it. Do I agree with all of it - no, but its a handy little guide and outline. Hope you enjoy it Teachme.
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teachmevp
I remember my long hair days, that hair thing can kinda work a attitude in one's mind? Maybe that is the lesson?
Thanks for the learning, buddy.
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teachmevp
Could that "Above the heavens" in Glory; the north is above all the heavens, because of what is in the north of the north, Yahweh's tent is there, his throne is there, the 24 elders are their. All the angles except for the 1/3 and those that left their first station, are all sitting in the east and west recesses of the north?
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teachmevp
This thing in Isa. 14:13; Job 26:7; Ps 75:6- Promotion comes from the north; the immediate place of Yahweh's throne, to which Satan aspires; has anyone stumbled across any of this north stuff?
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teachmevp
Could our abiding places Yeshua talked about in John, be in that north?
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teachmevp
Trying to build on what Sunesis said, "The laws of physics as we know them will be folded up" if one was standing on the southern egde of the north, looking into the abode, has anyone stumble a crossed, what that new earth looks like?
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Oakspear
Did (all of) the early Christians turn away from Paul? This presupposes that the early Christians were a monolithic group that all believed the same thing and that Paul's teachings represented this "same thing".
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Broken Arrow
No, it says "all they which dwell in Asia. The assumption is that Paul is speaking of the church in Asia which would make sense since that is where he carried out the bulk of his ministry. TWI taught that Asia was the known world at that time but there was also Macedonia, Northern Africa, Rome, and probably other places.
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Sunesis
I have always found it interesting that the Catholic Church were avid followers of the 12 apostles. Apostolic succession was, and still is, very important to them. They were not followers of Paul.
Thus, you see the Catholics have built their earthly kingdom and at various stages have tried to rule the known world - because they have appropriated Israel's hope (you shall inherit the earth) for their own and applied it to the church of the grace administration.
I have often wondered what Christianity would be like today if they had followed Paul's revelation.
Although, in some ways, that's what was so revolutionary about Luther. He rejected much of the Catholic doctrine. But the problem with Protestantism is you have literally, almost 33,000 denominations - while the Catholics chug along with only one body.
Augustine was a Pauline follower, so were several other early "church fathers" but later, the leadership reverted back to following the 12 apostles and taking the doctrine that was meant for Israel and applying it to the church of the one body.
Interesting food for thought. If they had stuck with Paul, would there have been a crusades? Would there be "warriors" for Christ? Paul taught after the Mystery had been revealed we are to "stand" against the wiles of the adversary and pray - we have been given power to do that - not go out and kill and convert and rule the world (as Israel will do under Christ someday when he returns - see what happens when doctrine gets mixed up?).
If Paul had been followed and people realized their hope was in heaven, would they be going on crusades or inquisitions killing people? Would they not have realized earthly government is just that - earthly government - man trying to keep order. There is nothing spiritual about it. Sometimes we get good ones, sometimes evil ones. We can read the OT to see everything from judges to Kings to Moses - differing types of governments, then ancient rome, greek - Emperors, etc. Man experiments.
I tend to think there is a difference in result depending which view you follow. If you follow Israel's hope - as was made available for Gentiles to be grafted into, you know the earth will be yours someday, so why not try and make as much of it as you can yours - now? If there had been no revelation of that mystery - that would be the logical way to go - follow the commission of the apostles. Many people have this.
If you understand that Israel has been put in abeyance and God and Christ are dealing with the Gentile and one new creation in this age, and our home is heavenly - would we not be a bit more gentle and forgiving as Christians as we look up - to the heavens, instead of to the earth?
Just food for thought.
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Steve Lortz
Neither Second Temple Judaism nor the Christianity that sprang from it were monolithic. Paul may have felt that the Asian Christians had turned away from him personally, but that doesn't mean they turned away from Christ, or even away from a Pauline form of gentile Christianity. Paul's writings were certainly saved and read in the churches.
All of the churches addressed in Revelation toward the end of the first century were in Asia. In fact, one of them was at Ephesus. There could have been older people sitting in the congregation at Ephesus listening to John's messenger delivering Revelation, who could remember sitting in the same congregation as youngsters listening to Paul's messenger deliver Ephesians.
The body of Christ was much vaster in the 20th century than Wierwille and TWI ever imagined. The same thing was true of the 1st century.
Love,
Steve
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Broken Arrow
Exactly! If they had ALL turned away, who preserved his writings? These things are very insightful for me. I appreciate everyone's input on this.
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DrWearWord
It seems evident that as Paul wrote to several churches, some were perhaps complete failures and some were not. Thus it really depends on to whom were the words specifically concerning.
Also most historical biblical scholars don't believe that 1 or 2 Timothy were written by Paul... Though some say second Timothy might have been written by Paul. Most concur that first Timothy was not written by Paul.
In particular the church of Galatia is not mentioned as being a success. Consider that Galatia was in modern day Turkey and would have had considerable conflicts with the tribes of Ishmael.
As we see today with Sharia law, Galatians apparently did not free them from "the law"...
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Oakspear
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teachmevp
Could we get to consumed, by who wrote all this stuff down; should we focus on what Paul announced? But then again, how do we know what was announced? Sunesis left us a helpful guide a while back in this tread, that could help find your answer to your question, who wrote this down there?
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cman
The Nazarite Vow can come into play with 1 Corinthians 11.
It is talking about following, and following who.
The hair is figurative for a following among other meanings.
When doing the Nazarite vow, for one example, it is about a following.
It is a shame to be seen with a following for the man.
But not for the woman, which is wisdom all over the scriptures.
It's that wisdom that can be followed and found.
It's not about a man, Paul or anyone else.
It's in the dark sayings that light can be seen about Christ.
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teachmevp
Your remarks have been noted before Yahweh; Yahweh has nothing to do with dark saying, say hi to Martindale for me.
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teachmevp
It has been established that Paul made an announcement, I am telling that same announcement to dump that spirit teaching; do not play with the announcements?
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cman
Why do you attempt to insult in ignorance of your own words?
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