I don't remember this being specifically taught anywhere, but it seemed to be something in the air (or the kool-aid, as it were).
Paul the apostle failed to take the Word over the world because of his trip to Jerusalem.
God had to wait nearly 2000 years for Victor Paul to rise up and finish the job of taking the Word over the world.
Not only had God groomed the Wierwille family tree to produce V.P., God also had him NAMED to show forth his mission!?! Apparently, Wierwille was NOT going to make mistakes like that ol' Paul did!
When it was pointed out to the princes of CES that Romans doesn't actually say the things they teach, they declared that the prison epistles ONLY... Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians... are reliable, because the things Paul wrote before he was "broken of his Jewish mindset" (ala the Momentus training) on his trip to Jerusalem were tainted by his Jewish character.
I personally think Luke-Acts was written to present to the Roman magistrate who heard Paul's case in lieu of the emperor himself. I think Luke-Acts was Paul's defense. I think this purpose may well have influenced the tenor of Luke's account of Paul's trip to Jerusalem.
James Dunn has a new book out, The New Perspective on Paul. I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure I will at some point.
Stephen Dando-Collins is a historian who has written a number of "biographies" of Roman legions. In Mark Antony's Heroes, How the Third Gallica Legion Saved an Apostle and Created an Emperor, Dando-Collins devotes several chapters to how Paul must have come into the hands of Legio III Gallica, and what his trip to Rome must have been like. He uses material from Acts, but its interesting to see it interpreted from the context of the legionnaires.
Not to derail this thread but, I still have never quite figured out what that statement means... Didn't understand it when I was in, still don't know.. But alas, it's been accomplished, so what do I care!
Maybe I just thought that teaching was ultra-cool because I was 13 or so when I heard it... But it still makes sense to me. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
I'm not sure I ever put it in the "ultra-cool" folder, but umm, I sure thought it was a gem. And I can't say that I have yet to see enough evidence to overturn the details. I mean, he was being warned one way or the other. Whether it was being warned NOT to go, or a heads-up this is what is going to happen.. I'd like to think God would warn us so we DON'T end up in those messes.. But, what do I know! Maybe it was the only logical thought I had in TWI (Besides leaving)!
Without getting into the specifics about whether TWI's take on this was "accurate" (or akrit), it's certainly an example of how Wierwille used these "gee-whiz" teachings to tear down the perceived reliability of the mainstream churches and build up his own credentials in our eyes.
I think one of the reasons it appealed to me so much was that at the mainstream churches I was attending people had problems when I would ask questions about verses like these. Maybe it was because it was coming from a kid who was under the age of twelve and they couldn't just say, "I don't know" without losing face. I was a weird kid who read way too much and took everything very seriously. Sunday School teachers hated having me in class because I would ask them stuff that normal kids just don't think about, and I wasn't satisfied with a pat answer because I wanted to know everything.
TWI acted like they DID know everything, and they also acted like I could ask questions. They even had CLASSES I could take to learn more.
Of course, it's pretty easy to impress a naive tweenager who doesn't have enough life experience to know who to trust and who not to, especially when your parents are gung-ho.
maybe Paul had revelation about having to go to Jerusalem where as Phillip's daughters and Agabus were the ones deceived by Satan, not the other way around :unsure: :wacko: :blink: :o I am being sarcastic folks
Well, at the 2000, or 2002 advanced class special these records on Paul were taught to explain away Craig Martindale's sexual predations. The cited record after record of Paul and pointed out all the good he had done and then he made a mistake in judgment. Not a mistake in heart because that is an extra evil mistake.
So, Paul suffered an attack from within the household at the hand of James and those in Jerusalem and that's what had happened, in essence, to the way international with Craig. They made a REAL big effort to help us see it "spiritually."
So, once again the scriptures are twisted to support their evil, narcissistic Acts. Pun intended.
I think Wierwille used this record to fabricate a mystique regarding the difference between "error in judgment" and "error in heart". Why? Because it gave him an easy rationalization for his own personal shortcomings.
I think Wierwille used this record to fabricate a mystique regarding the difference between "error in judgment" and "error in heart". Why? Because it gave him an easy rationalization for his own personal shortcomings.
Well, that explains a lot. Pure crap - mistake in judgment and mistake in heart. So his philandering ways were not a mistake in heart, and therefore forgivable when he never changed? Creep till the end I understand.
Well, at the 2000, or 2002 advanced class special these records on Paul were taught to explain away Craig Martindale's sexual predations. The cited record after record of Paul and pointed out all the good he had done and then he made a mistake in judgment. Not a mistake in heart because that is an extra evil mistake.
So, Paul suffered an attack from within the household at the hand of James and those in Jerusalem and that's what had happened, in essence, to the way international with Craig. They made a REAL big effort to help us see it "spiritually."
So, once again the scriptures are twisted to support their evil, narcissistic Acts. Pun intended.
I'll bet they didn't mention just-how-many times,... Martindale ~~~ ...went to Jerusalem... ~~~
... or the fact that the good prophetess rosalie not only helped him,... ~~~ ...go to Jerusalem...~~~ But provided him with Jerusalems!
TWI acted like they DID know everything, and they also acted like I could ask questions.
They did? That wasn't my experience, I was basically told to shut up and that I didn't know enough to ask any questions. I was told to take the class and once I had the "logic of the Word" in me, I could ask questions. That was at a twig where the legendary Tom J. was teaching. I took the class and handed about a page of questions to the class instructor at the last session like we were told we could do. Privately, I was told that I obviously hadn't listened well enough in the class and needed to re-take it. That was during the break at session 12. After the break, he proceeded to read my questions to the rest of the group and pointed out to everyone how I hadn't paid attention. He didn't mention me by name, but everyone pretty much knew it was me. Hell, there were only 7 new students in my class.
Good thing that doesn't bother me anymore, otherwise I might have some issues. :P
Well, at the 2000, or 2002 advanced class special these records on Paul were taught to explain away Craig Martindale's sexual predations. The cited record after record of Paul and pointed out all the good he had done and then he made a mistake in judgment. Not a mistake in heart because that is an extra evil mistake.
So, Paul suffered an attack from within the household at the hand of James and those in Jerusalem and that's what had happened, in essence, to the way international with Craig. They made a REAL big effort to help us see it "spiritually."
So, once again the scriptures are twisted to support their evil, narcissistic Acts. Pun intended.
Omnigosh! You have got to be kidding! That's just plain sick! By the way, Martindale came up with all that garbage about Paul being betrayed by James and the believers in Jerusalem. Wierwille endorsed it with his silence imo.
That teaching is almost blasphemy in my opinion because it is so far from the truth. The truth is, according to church history, James was known for being kind and benevolent. He was actually stabbed to death while going into the Temple because it was rumored he escorted a gentile into the temple.
Martindale was way off bounds by speaking of a man like James in this fashion. Of course, it wasn't really blasphemy. It's pretty bad though.
I think Wierwille used this record to fabricate a mystique regarding the difference between "error in judgment" and "error in heart". Why? Because it gave him an easy rationalization for his own personal shortcomings.
Here's a little hint on how that one works. "Error in judgement" - that's the kind of error your leadership makes, even if it breaks the law. "Error in heart" - that's the kind of error you make, because your heart is not following your leader closely enough.
Here's a little hint on how that one works. "Error in judgement" - that's the kind of error your leadership makes, even if it breaks the law. "Error in heart" - that's the kind of error you make, because your heart is not following your leader closely enough.
That's about how the world turns. Except they make the error in heart thing SOOOO much worse. I mean it's not as bad as homosexuality or being born of the seed of the serpent but it's definitely a runner up.
WTF is an error in heart? When you think about it for a few minutes, which I don't recommend because you will have lost that time forever , it just makes no sense. No doubt more made up garbage that was over emphasized so it sounds real.
They did? That wasn't my experience, I was basically told to shut up and that I didn't know enough to ask any questions. I was told to take the class and once I had the "logic of the Word" in me, I could ask questions. That was at a twig where the legendary Tom J. was teaching. I took the class and handed about a page of questions to the class instructor at the last session like we were told we could do. Privately, I was told that I obviously hadn't listened well enough in the class and needed to re-take it. That was during the break at session 12. After the break, he proceeded to read my questions to the rest of the group and pointed out to everyone how I hadn't paid attention. He didn't mention me by name, but everyone pretty much knew it was me. Hell, there were only 7 new students in my class.
Good thing that doesn't bother me anymore, otherwise I might have some issues.
The class I was in wasn't run by WC, in fact there weren't any WC for hundreds of miles around. What a sweet fellowship it was, too. No wonder I stuck around for so long afterwards - I was trying to get back to what that first fellowshipwas like. People actually cared for each other and loved God. It wasn't legalistic, just a group of old hippies sitting around drinking beer and talking about the Bible.... Not at all what TWI really was. But it's what I thought TWI was for a long, long time.
Nice to see they've adopted their own system of cardinal and mortal sins (big and little sins). Can one of you briefly explain this thing about James (and which James) and Jerusalem. is it in the Bible somewhere or was it fabricated?
Nice to see they've adopted their own system of cardinal and mortal sins (big and little sins). Can one of you briefly explain this thing about James (and which James) and Jerusalem. is it in the Bible somewhere or was it fabricated?
From Acts 21 - Paul's Arrival at Jerusalem
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
In the bible Paul is arrested as a result of some folks that gave false witness against him:
some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28shouting, "Men of Israel, help us!
So this is basically where they give James a bad name. And teach all kinds of way international doctrine, such as Paul never should have went to Jerusalem, which context does support. Then they call it a mistake in judgment, which according to them is ok, so long as it's not a mistake in heart.
But, if you just read the damn records it never speaks ill of James or the elders in Jerusalem at the time. They were worried about what the people would say and that is about all you can say bad about them. It was the Jews from Asia that brought the trouble against Paul, not James. Hell, they make James sound as if he had returned to the law and set a trap for Paul.
But, if you just read the damn records it never speaks ill of James or the elders in Jerusalem at the time. They were worried about what the people would say and that is about all you can say bad about them. It was the Jews from Asia that brought the trouble against Paul, not James. Hell, they make James sound as if he had returned to the law and set a trap for Paul.
And that is just messed up. I haven't thought of this teaching in years, and looking back on it now it is just really really wrong. No one is safe from the condemnation of TWI, not even apostles who carried on the work of the church in the first century.
Of course, the Great Rapist and Plagiarist is exempt from their judgement - and obviously a much better person than James.
In the bible Paul is arrested as a result of some folks that gave false witness against him:
So this is basically where they give James a bad name. And teach all kinds of way international doctrine, such as Paul never should have went to Jerusalem, which context does support. Then they call it a mistake in judgment, which according to them is ok, so long as it's not a mistake in heart.
But, if you just read the damn records it never speaks ill of James or the elders in Jerusalem at the time. They were worried about what the people would say and that is about all you can say bad about them. It was the Jews from Asia that brought the trouble against Paul, not James. Hell, they make James sound as if he had returned to the law and set a trap for Paul.
Good point! Actually, an obvious point. Martindale based this entire doctrine of James' betrayal on the fact that when the Bible says the disciples in Jerusalem received Paul it's the word dechomai. According to TWI dechomai means to receive subjectively as opposed to enthusiastically.
Good point! Actually, an obvious point. Martindale based this entire doctrine of James' betrayal on the fact that when the Bible says the disciples in Jerusalem received Paul it's the word dechomai. According to TWI dechomai means to receive subjectively as opposed to enthusiastically.
I had forgotten all about that but remember it clear as day now that you mention it. Good grief, they had to really work hard to support that crap. I guess this was research? Squeezing private interpretation, in spite of clear verses in the immediate context that make no mention of their position. :blink:
Nice to see they've adopted their own system of cardinal and mortal sins (big and little sins). Can one of you briefly explain this thing about James (and which James) and Jerusalem. is it in the Bible somewhere or was it fabricated?
The James their referring to is the one who was the half-brother of Jesus. Most agree that this James is the one who was a main leader of the Church in Jerusalem, that part is not exclusively a TWI thing. Don't ask me how they figure that out. I'm sure someone here knows all about that.
I take it you're familiar with VP's teaching on Paul going to Jerusalem and how the King James mis-places commas to make Paul look good. A lot of people that post here think V.P.'s interpretation is correct. However, LCM, several years after V.P. taught this, taught a class called "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church". It came out in the mid-80's as I recall and it centers on the Book of Acts. In that class he goes into detail on how the Apostle Paul was in fact betrayed by James and the believers in Jerusalem when he visited there. It was during that trip that Paul was captured and imprisoned.
LCM portrays James as conceited, hard-hearted and jealous of Paul and his ministry. He portrays Paul as wanting to do the right thing and going along with some things James says that eventually lead to his imprisonment. Even though V.P., to my recollection, never publically said he thought the class was accurate, he did have LCM teach Rise and Expansion live at Advanced Class '79. I believe this silence from Wierwille, and him allowing it to proceed unhindered was his endorsement of this heretical teaching. Hope that answers your questions.
Thanks erkjohn, so basically it was Martindale filling in the blanks. His own, private version of what must have surely happened ~ those bastards in Jerusalem....
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chockfull
Here's a little hint on how that one works. "Error in judgement" - that's the kind of error your leadership makes, even if it breaks the law. "Error in heart" - that's the kind of error you make, be
Broken Arrow
Now Martindale took this to a whole different level with his teaching on the Book of Acts. In it, James was a traitor, Peter and Barnabus were nice guys but they were "softees". Pretty soon the church
Twinky
Only among (ex) Way believers could there be such a huge discussion about the (possible) meanings of two words meaning receive. Not what the average church goer spends a lot of time thinking about.
Steve Lortz
I don't remember this being specifically taught anywhere, but it seemed to be something in the air (or the kool-aid, as it were).
Paul the apostle failed to take the Word over the world because of his trip to Jerusalem.
God had to wait nearly 2000 years for Victor Paul to rise up and finish the job of taking the Word over the world.
Not only had God groomed the Wierwille family tree to produce V.P., God also had him NAMED to show forth his mission!?! Apparently, Wierwille was NOT going to make mistakes like that ol' Paul did!
When it was pointed out to the princes of CES that Romans doesn't actually say the things they teach, they declared that the prison epistles ONLY... Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians... are reliable, because the things Paul wrote before he was "broken of his Jewish mindset" (ala the Momentus training) on his trip to Jerusalem were tainted by his Jewish character.
I personally think Luke-Acts was written to present to the Roman magistrate who heard Paul's case in lieu of the emperor himself. I think Luke-Acts was Paul's defense. I think this purpose may well have influenced the tenor of Luke's account of Paul's trip to Jerusalem.
James Dunn has a new book out, The New Perspective on Paul. I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure I will at some point.
Stephen Dando-Collins is a historian who has written a number of "biographies" of Roman legions. In Mark Antony's Heroes, How the Third Gallica Legion Saved an Apostle and Created an Emperor, Dando-Collins devotes several chapters to how Paul must have come into the hands of Legio III Gallica, and what his trip to Rome must have been like. He uses material from Acts, but its interesting to see it interpreted from the context of the legionnaires.
Love,
Steve
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TrustAndObey
Not to derail this thread but, I still have never quite figured out what that statement means... Didn't understand it when I was in, still don't know.. But alas, it's been accomplished, so what do I care!
I'm not sure I ever put it in the "ultra-cool" folder, but umm, I sure thought it was a gem. And I can't say that I have yet to see enough evidence to overturn the details. I mean, he was being warned one way or the other. Whether it was being warned NOT to go, or a heads-up this is what is going to happen.. I'd like to think God would warn us so we DON'T end up in those messes.. But, what do I know! Maybe it was the only logical thought I had in TWI (Besides leaving)!
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Tzaia
I took it as "Look what happened to Paul when he did not obey. That won't happen to us because we do obey."
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Oakspear
Without getting into the specifics about whether TWI's take on this was "accurate" (or akrit), it's certainly an example of how Wierwille used these "gee-whiz" teachings to tear down the perceived reliability of the mainstream churches and build up his own credentials in our eyes.
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JavaJane
I think one of the reasons it appealed to me so much was that at the mainstream churches I was attending people had problems when I would ask questions about verses like these. Maybe it was because it was coming from a kid who was under the age of twelve and they couldn't just say, "I don't know" without losing face. I was a weird kid who read way too much and took everything very seriously. Sunday School teachers hated having me in class because I would ask them stuff that normal kids just don't think about, and I wasn't satisfied with a pat answer because I wanted to know everything.
TWI acted like they DID know everything, and they also acted like I could ask questions. They even had CLASSES I could take to learn more.
Of course, it's pretty easy to impress a naive tweenager who doesn't have enough life experience to know who to trust and who not to, especially when your parents are gung-ho.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
maybe Paul had revelation about having to go to Jerusalem where as Phillip's daughters and Agabus were the ones deceived by Satan, not the other way around
:unsure: :wacko: :blink: 
:o 
I am being sarcastic folks
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OldSkool
Well, at the 2000, or 2002 advanced class special these records on Paul were taught to explain away Craig Martindale's sexual predations. The cited record after record of Paul and pointed out all the good he had done and then he made a mistake in judgment. Not a mistake in heart because that is an extra evil mistake.
So, Paul suffered an attack from within the household at the hand of James and those in Jerusalem and that's what had happened, in essence, to the way international with Craig. They made a REAL big effort to help us see it "spiritually."
So, once again the scriptures are twisted to support their evil, narcissistic Acts. Pun intended.
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waysider
I think Wierwille used this record to fabricate a mystique regarding the difference between "error in judgment" and "error in heart". Why? Because it gave him an easy rationalization for his own personal shortcomings.
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OldSkool
Well, that explains a lot. Pure crap - mistake in judgment and mistake in heart. So his philandering ways were not a mistake in heart, and therefore forgivable when he never changed? Creep till the end I understand.
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Gen-2
I'll bet they didn't mention just-how-many times,... Martindale ~~~ ...went to Jerusalem... ~~~
... or the fact that the good prophetess rosalie not only helped him,... ~~~ ...go to Jerusalem...~~~ But provided him with Jerusalems!
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OldSkool
Nope! Not a word, whisper, or peep! Just an unfortunate one off that he has paid dearly for.
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Broken Arrow
They did? That wasn't my experience, I was basically told to shut up and that I didn't know enough to ask any questions. I was told to take the class and once I had the "logic of the Word" in me, I could ask questions. That was at a twig where the legendary Tom J. was teaching. I took the class and handed about a page of questions to the class instructor at the last session like we were told we could do. Privately, I was told that I obviously hadn't listened well enough in the class and needed to re-take it. That was during the break at session 12. After the break, he proceeded to read my questions to the rest of the group and pointed out to everyone how I hadn't paid attention. He didn't mention me by name, but everyone pretty much knew it was me. Hell, there were only 7 new students in my class.
Good thing that doesn't bother me anymore, otherwise I might have some issues. :P
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Broken Arrow
Omnigosh! You have got to be kidding! That's just plain sick! By the way, Martindale came up with all that garbage about Paul being betrayed by James and the believers in Jerusalem. Wierwille endorsed it with his silence imo.
That teaching is almost blasphemy in my opinion because it is so far from the truth. The truth is, according to church history, James was known for being kind and benevolent. He was actually stabbed to death while going into the Temple because it was rumored he escorted a gentile into the temple.
Martindale was way off bounds by speaking of a man like James in this fashion. Of course, it wasn't really blasphemy. It's pretty bad though.
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chockfull
Here's a little hint on how that one works. "Error in judgement" - that's the kind of error your leadership makes, even if it breaks the law. "Error in heart" - that's the kind of error you make, because your heart is not following your leader closely enough.
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OldSkool
That's about how the world turns. Except they make the error in heart thing SOOOO much worse. I mean it's not as bad as homosexuality or being born of the seed of the serpent but it's definitely a runner up.
WTF is an error in heart? When you think about it for a few minutes, which I don't recommend because you will have lost that time forever
, it just makes no sense. No doubt more made up garbage that was over emphasized so it sounds real.
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JavaJane
The class I was in wasn't run by WC, in fact there weren't any WC for hundreds of miles around. What a sweet fellowship it was, too. No wonder I stuck around for so long afterwards - I was trying to get back to what that first fellowshipwas like. People actually cared for each other and loved God. It wasn't legalistic, just a group of old hippies sitting around drinking beer and talking about the Bible.... Not at all what TWI really was. But it's what I thought TWI was for a long, long time.
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Gen-2
Nice to see they've adopted their own system of cardinal and mortal sins (big and little sins). Can one of you briefly explain this thing about James (and which James) and Jerusalem. is it in the Bible somewhere or was it fabricated?
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OldSkool
In the bible Paul is arrested as a result of some folks that gave false witness against him:
So this is basically where they give James a bad name. And teach all kinds of way international doctrine, such as Paul never should have went to Jerusalem, which context does support. Then they call it a mistake in judgment, which according to them is ok, so long as it's not a mistake in heart.
But, if you just read the damn records it never speaks ill of James or the elders in Jerusalem at the time. They were worried about what the people would say and that is about all you can say bad about them. It was the Jews from Asia that brought the trouble against Paul, not James. Hell, they make James sound as if he had returned to the law and set a trap for Paul.
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JavaJane
And that is just messed up. I haven't thought of this teaching in years, and looking back on it now it is just really really wrong. No one is safe from the condemnation of TWI, not even apostles who carried on the work of the church in the first century.
Of course, the Great Rapist and Plagiarist is exempt from their judgement - and obviously a much better person than James.
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Broken Arrow
Good point! Actually, an obvious point. Martindale based this entire doctrine of James' betrayal on the fact that when the Bible says the disciples in Jerusalem received Paul it's the word dechomai. According to TWI dechomai means to receive subjectively as opposed to enthusiastically.
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OldSkool
I had forgotten all about that but remember it clear as day now that you mention it. Good grief, they had to really work hard to support that crap. I guess this was research? Squeezing private interpretation, in spite of clear verses in the immediate context that make no mention of their position. :blink:
Great points erkjohn!
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waysider
What makes it almost comically ironic is that the whole dechomai/lambano concept has been debunked
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Broken Arrow
The James their referring to is the one who was the half-brother of Jesus. Most agree that this James is the one who was a main leader of the Church in Jerusalem, that part is not exclusively a TWI thing. Don't ask me how they figure that out. I'm sure someone here knows all about that.
I take it you're familiar with VP's teaching on Paul going to Jerusalem and how the King James mis-places commas to make Paul look good. A lot of people that post here think V.P.'s interpretation is correct. However, LCM, several years after V.P. taught this, taught a class called "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church". It came out in the mid-80's as I recall and it centers on the Book of Acts. In that class he goes into detail on how the Apostle Paul was in fact betrayed by James and the believers in Jerusalem when he visited there. It was during that trip that Paul was captured and imprisoned.
LCM portrays James as conceited, hard-hearted and jealous of Paul and his ministry. He portrays Paul as wanting to do the right thing and going along with some things James says that eventually lead to his imprisonment. Even though V.P., to my recollection, never publically said he thought the class was accurate, he did have LCM teach Rise and Expansion live at Advanced Class '79. I believe this silence from Wierwille, and him allowing it to proceed unhindered was his endorsement of this heretical teaching. Hope that answers your questions.
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Gen-2
Thanks erkjohn, so basically it was Martindale filling in the blanks. His own, private version of what must have surely happened ~ those bastards in Jerusalem....
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