How many times was this verse used against us ladies? I know it was used against me a few times, and it was used against my mother A LOT. I can't think of a time I heard it used against a MALE, though. After all, men can't practice witchcraft (right....) and women are the ones who need to be kept in line.
. . .
Never thought of this being used on women . . . thought it was for the kids.
Well JJ,... I can't remember how many times I've heard men say, "Women are to keep silent". When I tell them It says wives, and in the church, not women - and the wives of Prophets at that, and that I'm not married, they get all upset.
That's when I hear some of them whip out the quote on witchcraft you quoted,... lol
I wonder if that's why they call the "offshoots" - SPLINTER Groups - After all... Why to witches Burn? -- Because they're made of wood! Beware the splinters! (and my Monty Python jokes)
Bolsehevik, women are treated like children in twi, so I can see how you would get confused.
And Gen, right on. I for one don't weigh the same as a duck.
One other point - just because there is a female as president of twi don't think for a second that women have moved up in the ranks. This is a woman who acted as a pimp for LCM (and probably VPW as well.) What kind of respect do you have for your fellow womankind if you are willing to procure women for the supposed man of God? Not much, methinks.
While I agree that women are not very well treated in TWI, I certainly have had that verse used against me whenever I would question the practices of a leader as opposed to just saying 'yes sir' or 'yes ma'am'. I remember once specifically being asked for feedback on what we could do to change things, and then when I put thought into it and responded I was told I was 'complaining'.
Organizations that shut down free speech, or promote environments that shut it down as opposed to expecting absolute compliance and obedience are dysfunctional. Also, when leaders use free speech to identify potential political enemies and eliminate them, that is about as sick as you can get. That person or persons have similar traits to Stalin and Hitler.
eventually they got around to treating fifty some year old men like children..
maybe we oughta consider the "biblical truth we must adhere to".. TO WHOM was that little narrative addressed? Women? forty and fifty year olds who refused to maintain their floss chart properly?
forty and fifty year olds who refused to maintain their floss chart properly?
Yep! There were several families in-rezidentured while I was. One of the fathers had been an executive of an accounting firm. He was required to keep his brushing, flossing, Knowles breathing chart with the rest of us. He was in his late 40s at the time.
Rebellion, hard-heart, and stiff-neck are dangerous things. Of course things were so twisted in twi because the leadership was in rebellion against the Lord.
I have found that a softer neck and willingness to obey what the Holy Spirit speaks does pave the way for a more fruitful life -- communication with Him, answered prayers, etc.
Not being stiff-necked has been a lesson the Lord continues to work with me for many years. I cannot say I have learned it yet.
Watchman Nee was a great example of this humility. He was imprisoned by the communists from 1960 to 1972 and he died in prison. He was charged with taking money from Europeans and Americans and for being a spy because he couldn't prevent his church businesses from prospering due to the fact that he faithfully tithed and obeyed the Lord. During the time of his imprisonment his friends knew he was still alive because from outside the prison they could hear "his deep baritone singing the hymns he loved."
Watchman Nee's writings were produced by his friends from notes made at his teachings many years ago (there was a new one published in 2009). He never saw or reviewed many of the works published as his writings. I asked a Chinese person who also loved his stuff how did he know it was not counterfeit Watchman Nee? He had a gentle laugh and said, "It would not be Watchman Nee." Watchman Nee's writings are most precious but they allow no room for rationalization -- he lived his life with that integrity. When I first started reading this stuff I would make notes to "correct" his simplicity -- but upon recent re-reading those same passages I find now that I was in error, not Watchman Nee.
Because there is a softness of the "still small voice" of the Holy Spirit, His voice cannot be heard when one has a stiff neck and/or a hard heart, so these things which are life-threatening diseases should be avoided at all costs.
This verse about rebellion is one I learned to use against myself in-residence. (I was of a rebellious age and temperament.) It was followed closely by the Old Testament injunction, "Suffer not a witch to live...". Which is to say my attitude was some how worthy of death. This combination of verses kept me in line when I reached an early "F-this" point in the training.
Thankfully they never fully beat the rebellion out of me. fuc kers
It all depends on what you are rebelling against... For instance, the names of two major women in the Bible mean "Rebel" - Miriam, the prophetess sister of Moses, and Mary, the mother of Jesus. Both of them were named appropriately, as they rebelled against the wrong in their environments.
And, I think Jesus could be considered a rebel - he spoke up and founght AGAINST the religious heirarchy of His day.
We don't want to rebel against God, but rebellion against those who oppress God's people, who turn God's name into somthing to control and corrupt the innocent? You betcha!
It all depends on what you are rebelling against... For instance, the names of two major women in the Bible mean "Rebel" - Miriam, the prophetess sister of Moses, and Mary, the mother of Jesus. Both of them were named appropriately, as they rebelled against the wrong in their environments.
You just reminded me of another really weird thing we did in TWI.. Taking people's names and definitions and attributing that to their life.. lol... I have no doubt every person on the face of this earth has rebelled! lol.. As if Mary was some great "rebeller"! No, I know you aren't saying that JJ, I'm just saying how TWI used to do this and take it to the Nth degree.. David's warriors.. Since we just have their names listed, let's find out what they were like.. Their name meant so and so, and that's what they were like! umm. Yeah, ok... Please..
But I do agree...
We don't want to rebel against God, but rebellion against those who oppress God's people, who turn God's name into somthing to control and corrupt the innocent? You betcha!
You just reminded me of another really weird thing we did in TWI.. Taking people's names and definitions and attributing that to their life.. lol... I have no doubt every person on the face of this earth has rebelled! lol.. As if Mary was some great "rebeller"! No, I know you aren't saying that JJ, I'm just saying how TWI used to do this and take it to the Nth degree.. David's warriors.. Since we just have their names listed, let's find out what they were like.. Their name meant so and so, and that's what they were like! umm. Yeah, ok... Please..
yeah, you are right about the name meaning thing... I was meaning more along the lines that their parents knew the meaning of the name and named them that name on purpose... maybe they wanted a daughter who would stand up for what they thought was right. Both of their families were under oppressive governments at the time, Miriam in Egypt, and Mary in the Roman Empire. Just a thought... I know before we named our daughter I looked at the meaning of every name we liked before we chose the name we did, as well as who in history had that name.
But then again, I am a little OCD about naming someone else since they have to live with it for the rest of their lives. I wanted the name Miriam, actually, but the spouse shot that one down (darnit!)
I know before we named our daughter I looked at the meaning of every name we liked before we chose the name we did, as well as who in history had that name.
lol... Course some people just name their kids cause the name is "kewl" or popular or sounds different. Or umm, a million other things. (Like me, I liked a name since I was a kid, and named my dog it [solomon].. lol.. As if my wife would let me name my son after my dog] or my sis who had a Cabbage Patch doll that came pre-named Donovan, so umm yeah, she named her son that!]... Actually my wife required we name our sons a name that was both Polish and American.. Kinda limited my choices. I guess I could have just rebelled...
Yeah, I have a cousin who is expecting twins - she's OCD like me and wants names that will sound harmonious together, have nice meanings, are Gaelic or Norse in origin, and when in combination with their last name (which is a common one) is not already in use as a domain on the internet.
The buzzword in the middle 90's where I was (probably everywhere) was "resist", from that verse about whoever resists the power resists God. Every time I expressed reluctance to do some stupid-@ssed thing that my leader "suggested", I was "resisting".
The thing that I saw a lot was that Martindale would teach something at Corps Night and the next day, week, month, that would be all that you'd hear about, whether it be the sin du jour, the "correct" pronunciation of a Greek word or just the newest wacky doctrine.
The thing that I saw a lot was that Martindale would teach something at Corps Night and the next day, week, month, that would be all that you'd hear about, whether it be the sin du jour, the "correct" pronunciation of a Greek word or just the newest wacky doctrine.
And the more zealous, boot lickers got promoted. I remember those days too. Reverend Martindale this and Reverend Martindale that and on it went.
The buzzword in the middle 90's where I was (probably everywhere) was "resist", from that verse about whoever resists the power resists God. Every time I expressed reluctance to do some stupid-@ssed thing that my leader "suggested", I was "resisting".
I remember once being confronted on something to do with this type of thing once. The person confronting me asked me "why I was bucking their leadership". My response was "why are you trying to ride me? I'm not a horse".
The irony behind this is that the "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" saying is a quote from I Samuel where Samuel confronts Saul about his rebellion. Thus, this saying was spoken to a man.
JJ, I fully agree that misogyny ran rampant in TWI but I had this verse used against me too. It came up whenever I had a differnt idea than leadership. Still, I think things were a LOT tougher on women.
The irony behind this is that the "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" saying is a quote from I Samuel where Samuel confronts Saul about his rebellion. Thus, this saying was spoken to a man.
JJ, I fully agree that misogyny ran rampant in TWI but I had this verse used against me too. It came up whenever I had a differnt idea than leadership. Still, I think things were a LOT toughter on women.
I guess TWI was an equal opportunity oppressor when it came to this verse! It still amazes me that a group that is so caught up in "rightly dividing the Word" according to "administrations" loved to pull out OT verses to control people with.
TWI leaders did not care a rip if you were listening to any still small voice. They didn't care about God or Holy Spirit or your relationship with diety in any way.
The only obedience that mattered was to the leader in your face. Anything your god might tell you was of no value--unless it backed the leader up.
TWI was corrupt. If you rebelled you were showing some moral backbone.
And if one takes another step back for a little larger picture, I think just about any religion ends up there.
Sure it's all about the love, goodness and forebearing of the chosen Diety du jour, but sooner or later it always gets around to the worthlessness of those damned infidels. I think it just comes with the territory...
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OldSkool
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Bolshevik
Never thought of this being used on women . . . thought it was for the kids.
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Gen-2
Well JJ,... I can't remember how many times I've heard men say, "Women are to keep silent". When I tell them It says wives, and in the church, not women - and the wives of Prophets at that, and that I'm not married, they get all upset.
That's when I hear some of them whip out the quote on witchcraft you quoted,... lol
I wonder if that's why they call the "offshoots" - SPLINTER Groups - After all... Why to witches Burn? -- Because they're made of wood! Beware the splinters! (and my Monty Python jokes)
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JavaJane
Bolsehevik, women are treated like children in twi, so I can see how you would get confused.
And Gen, right on. I for one don't weigh the same as a duck.
One other point - just because there is a female as president of twi don't think for a second that women have moved up in the ranks. This is a woman who acted as a pimp for LCM (and probably VPW as well.) What kind of respect do you have for your fellow womankind if you are willing to procure women for the supposed man of God? Not much, methinks.
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chockfull
While I agree that women are not very well treated in TWI, I certainly have had that verse used against me whenever I would question the practices of a leader as opposed to just saying 'yes sir' or 'yes ma'am'. I remember once specifically being asked for feedback on what we could do to change things, and then when I put thought into it and responded I was told I was 'complaining'.
Organizations that shut down free speech, or promote environments that shut it down as opposed to expecting absolute compliance and obedience are dysfunctional. Also, when leaders use free speech to identify potential political enemies and eliminate them, that is about as sick as you can get. That person or persons have similar traits to Stalin and Hitler.
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Bolshevik
In a cult, all eyes look the same.
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OldSkool
Yer all a buncha rebels!! Oh...sorry ....had a moment.....
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Ham
eventually they got around to treating fifty some year old men like children..
maybe we oughta consider the "biblical truth we must adhere to".. TO WHOM was that little narrative addressed? Women? forty and fifty year olds who refused to maintain their floss chart properly?
I remember "to whom.."
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OldSkool
Yep! There were several families in-rezidentured while I was. One of the fathers had been an executive of an accounting firm. He was required to keep his brushing, flossing, Knowles breathing chart with the rest of us. He was in his late 40s at the time.
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Kit Sober
Rebellion, hard-heart, and stiff-neck are dangerous things. Of course things were so twisted in twi because the leadership was in rebellion against the Lord.
I have found that a softer neck and willingness to obey what the Holy Spirit speaks does pave the way for a more fruitful life -- communication with Him, answered prayers, etc.
Not being stiff-necked has been a lesson the Lord continues to work with me for many years. I cannot say I have learned it yet.
Watchman Nee was a great example of this humility. He was imprisoned by the communists from 1960 to 1972 and he died in prison. He was charged with taking money from Europeans and Americans and for being a spy because he couldn't prevent his church businesses from prospering due to the fact that he faithfully tithed and obeyed the Lord. During the time of his imprisonment his friends knew he was still alive because from outside the prison they could hear "his deep baritone singing the hymns he loved."
Watchman Nee's writings were produced by his friends from notes made at his teachings many years ago (there was a new one published in 2009). He never saw or reviewed many of the works published as his writings. I asked a Chinese person who also loved his stuff how did he know it was not counterfeit Watchman Nee? He had a gentle laugh and said, "It would not be Watchman Nee." Watchman Nee's writings are most precious but they allow no room for rationalization -- he lived his life with that integrity. When I first started reading this stuff I would make notes to "correct" his simplicity -- but upon recent re-reading those same passages I find now that I was in error, not Watchman Nee.
Because there is a softness of the "still small voice" of the Holy Spirit, His voice cannot be heard when one has a stiff neck and/or a hard heart, so these things which are life-threatening diseases should be avoided at all costs.
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shortfuse
This verse about rebellion is one I learned to use against myself in-residence. (I was of a rebellious age and temperament.) It was followed closely by the Old Testament injunction, "Suffer not a witch to live...". Which is to say my attitude was some how worthy of death. This combination of verses kept me in line when I reached an early "F-this" point in the training.
Thankfully they never fully beat the rebellion out of me. fuc kers
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JavaJane
It all depends on what you are rebelling against... For instance, the names of two major women in the Bible mean "Rebel" - Miriam, the prophetess sister of Moses, and Mary, the mother of Jesus. Both of them were named appropriately, as they rebelled against the wrong in their environments.
And, I think Jesus could be considered a rebel - he spoke up and founght AGAINST the religious heirarchy of His day.
We don't want to rebel against God, but rebellion against those who oppress God's people, who turn God's name into somthing to control and corrupt the innocent? You betcha!
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TrustAndObey
You just reminded me of another really weird thing we did in TWI.. Taking people's names and definitions and attributing that to their life.. lol... I have no doubt every person on the face of this earth has rebelled! lol.. As if Mary was some great "rebeller"! No, I know you aren't saying that JJ, I'm just saying how TWI used to do this and take it to the Nth degree.. David's warriors.. Since we just have their names listed, let's find out what they were like.. Their name meant so and so, and that's what they were like! umm. Yeah, ok... Please..
But I do agree...
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JavaJane
yeah, you are right about the name meaning thing... I was meaning more along the lines that their parents knew the meaning of the name and named them that name on purpose... maybe they wanted a daughter who would stand up for what they thought was right. Both of their families were under oppressive governments at the time, Miriam in Egypt, and Mary in the Roman Empire. Just a thought... I know before we named our daughter I looked at the meaning of every name we liked before we chose the name we did, as well as who in history had that name.
But then again, I am a little OCD about naming someone else since they have to live with it for the rest of their lives. I wanted the name Miriam, actually, but the spouse shot that one down (darnit!)
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TrustAndObey
lol... Course some people just name their kids cause the name is "kewl" or popular or sounds different. Or umm, a million other things. (Like me, I liked a name since I was a kid, and named my dog it [solomon].. lol.. As if my wife would let me name my son after my dog] or my sis who had a Cabbage Patch doll that came pre-named Donovan, so umm yeah, she named her son that!]... Actually my wife required we name our sons a name that was both Polish and American.. Kinda limited my choices. I guess I could have just rebelled...
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JavaJane
Yeah, I have a cousin who is expecting twins - she's OCD like me and wants names that will sound harmonious together, have nice meanings, are Gaelic or Norse in origin, and when in combination with their last name (which is a common one) is not already in use as a domain on the internet.
I think it might be genetic.
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Oakspear
The buzzword in the middle 90's where I was (probably everywhere) was "resist", from that verse about whoever resists the power resists God. Every time I expressed reluctance to do some stupid-@ssed thing that my leader "suggested", I was "resisting".
The thing that I saw a lot was that Martindale would teach something at Corps Night and the next day, week, month, that would be all that you'd hear about, whether it be the sin du jour, the "correct" pronunciation of a Greek word or just the newest wacky doctrine.
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OldSkool
And the more zealous, boot lickers got promoted. I remember those days too. Reverend Martindale this and Reverend Martindale that and on it went.
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Gen-2
Time to wake up and smell the......................
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chockfull
I remember once being confronted on something to do with this type of thing once. The person confronting me asked me "why I was bucking their leadership". My response was "why are you trying to ride me? I'm not a horse".
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Broken Arrow
The irony behind this is that the "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" saying is a quote from I Samuel where Samuel confronts Saul about his rebellion. Thus, this saying was spoken to a man.
JJ, I fully agree that misogyny ran rampant in TWI but I had this verse used against me too. It came up whenever I had a differnt idea than leadership. Still, I think things were a LOT tougher on women.
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JavaJane
I guess TWI was an equal opportunity oppressor when it came to this verse! It still amazes me that a group that is so caught up in "rightly dividing the Word" according to "administrations" loved to pull out OT verses to control people with.
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Bramble
TWI leaders did not care a rip if you were listening to any still small voice. They didn't care about God or Holy Spirit or your relationship with diety in any way.
The only obedience that mattered was to the leader in your face. Anything your god might tell you was of no value--unless it backed the leader up.
TWI was corrupt. If you rebelled you were showing some moral backbone.
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George Aar
And if one takes another step back for a little larger picture, I think just about any religion ends up there.
Sure it's all about the love, goodness and forebearing of the chosen Diety du jour, but sooner or later it always gets around to the worthlessness of those damned infidels. I think it just comes with the territory...
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