This is The Great Principle, as stated many times in the foundational, intermediate and advanced classes.:
"God's spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit and your spirit teaches your mind and is manifested in the senses realm as you act."
Wierwille also stated that "God, being spirit, can only speak to that which he is, spirit."
So, if God, being spirit, can not talk to your mind, how is it that YOUR spirit, being spirit, can?
In essence, if The Great Principle is true, the only people that God has talked to down through the ages are either born-again Christians or people who have had the spirit placed on them conditionally on an ad hoc basis.
Sounds rather limiting, in my opinion.
I am only defing Wayspeak here. I'm not saying I agree. The logic is that if the spirit (small "s") is yours, it can now talk to you because it belongs to you. In fact, it is you, you are a spirit being. God, who is almighty, all powerful, omniscient, and omnipresent is too inept to speak to your flesh because He can only speak to what He is. But He can speak to your spirit. Since your spirit is now yours, it can speak to you, that is your mind.
I'll go this far. That is to say ~ If God wants to talk to you, He can, He will. I don't really care how that happens, because it doesn't matter to me, just that it does.
I'll go this far. That is to say ~ If God wants to talk to you, He can, He will. I don't really care how that happens, because it doesn't matter to me, just that it does.
Well now Gen, that's clear thinking which has no place here so stop it!
This, imo, was one of the hallmarks of TWI. They would take a subject that basically was of no consequence like this one, or "Four Crucified", "The Day Jesus Christ Died", and others, and then dissect the crap out of it. I believe it was an attempt to impress people with how "scholarly" they were as well as how concerned they were with detail. If anyone would question the relevance of the teaching, they would be scoffed at, or accused of not caring about the Truth.
It was one of those things that had me scratching my head and silently mouthing the word "huh?" during my first sitting through PFAL.
Maybe it would have made more sense if he had said that we couldn't hear the voice of God without spirit, rather than phrasing it as something that God couldn't do.
God can only give what he is...spirit...that makes no sense!
Well now Gen, that's clear thinking which has no place here so stop it!
This, imo, was one of the hallmarks of TWI. They would take a subject that basically was of no consequence like this one, or "Four Crucified", "The Day Jesus Christ Died", and others, and then dissect the crap out of it. I believe it was an attempt to impress people with how "scholarly" they were as well as how concerned they were with detail. If anyone would question the relevance of the teaching, they would be scoffed at, or accused of not caring about the Truth.
I agree that most of what they taught (4 crucified, etc.) was of no consequence from a doctrinal standpoint. It's my opinion that a lot of the damage that was inflicted was because of the lifestyle we followed. I think this explains why some people who participated in the in-residence programs were profoundly affected while some who were active exclusively at the local level escaped relatively unscathed.
Aren't there records in the Old Testament which show how God placed his spirit on people to speak with them and then removed it afterwards? Cyrus, all of Israel at one time, hell - he even made Baalam a Prophet and then when he refused to listen, spoke to him through an A__ (well-spellchecker -yanno?) uhm,... donkey-like critter. David prayed that God not take his holy spirit from him (after F'ing up).
So there's something to that,.. the individual having spirit to talk to God (and vice versa), but God can do work-arounds, the VOICE in the garden, the Burning Bush, etc...
I suspect God knows all the ways that he can talk to people. There might even be a few He hasn't used to date. One day we'll get a spiritual body like Christ and we can have a chat with God. He might be spirit - but I'll bet He has a pretty good sense of humor. hell, He puts up with us!
And Waysider, I believe you are exactly right. Many people go swimming every day without drowning. They're in the water and out of it in a small space of time. It's the ones that are suddenly pushed in or stay too long - or - God forbid - try to breathe the water, that are in the most danger. Some were fully immersed too long...! But just remember, you can drown in just a bucket of water, in just a few seconds.
As I see it, the Way Corps was like "Swimming Lessons" without a "Life-saving" course to go with it.
So, God cannot make sounds or speak out loud so that we red clay beings can hear him? Really, I never knew that God was so limited. He can't do something my toddler son can. Oh, boy.
God can only give what he is is almost as ridiculous. The earth is the lord's and the fullness there of. Besides that he made all that is. So he can't give any of that? Seems sort of contradictory when the bible states he gave Christ a name greater than any other name. So name's are spirit now? To quote The Forehead - "MALARKEY!"
The thing that trips me out is once I began actually questioning what the way teaches it all just fell apart. All their pseudo-logic, and junk science - Gone!
And - Bolsh - that spirit in concretion thing is a trip. I couldn't dream that up if I was tripping LSD.
The hind parts of God was explained by VeePee or Okie - doofus Forehead as God showing moses all that he would do in redeeming Israel. It's stated as hind parts because he could not show the mystery which was hidden in God. Sounds like crap to me since the "great" bible interpreters (VeePee and Forehead) always seemed to view the Bible from the great mystery vantage point.
Oh, ya - the limitation of God only speaking to spirit was to limit the adversary. That way spirits can't just drop by and start jaw boning with us. I gotta get some lunch but I would expect some sizable holes pokes in that one by the time i get back. Go get em folks!
Another interesting aspect to this teaching is when you start to look at the new body. For example, Christ after his resurrection appearing to many different people, including the road to Emmaus. Now supposedly the new body is "based upon spirit", whatever that means. And yet JC ate with people, walked and conversed, allowed people to touch them.
No, the Great Principle is largely a poor attempt to explain the communication between God and one of His children while trying to sound scientific. God who is spirit teaching your spirit. holy spirit. that teaching your mind. becoming manifest in the senses realm as you act.
The reality is that spirit has to be something where Newtonian physics don't apply. That goes right back down to the core of someone's beliefs, and it's why you cannot prove God to anyone outside of believing.
No, physics are involved in what you need to do, not God. Spirit is involved in our relationships with God. And who cares how the mechanics of that work - any mental model I have of that is likely to be pretty wrong, and introduce discrepancies like you guys brought up.
One kind of cool resource I liked on the evil side is that encyclopedia of ghosts and spirits. Rather than any kind of a teaching on them, it just has different articles on terms and pictures related to it.
This is The Great Principle, as stated many times in the foundational, intermediate and advanced classes.:
"God's spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit and your spirit teaches your mind and is manifested in the senses realm as you act."
Wierwille also stated that "God, being spirit, can only speak to that which he is, spirit."
So, if God, being spirit, can not talk to your mind, how is it that YOUR spirit, being spirit, can?
In essence, if The Great Principle is true, the only people that God has talked to down through the ages are either born-again Christians or people who have had the spirit placed on them conditionally on an ad hoc basis.
Sounds rather limiting, in my opinion.
Or they would teach God can appear in concretion, as angels can. That's 'phenomenon'.
This is all the dancing around necessary to establish VPW's "Holy Spirit" field work. They explain it that "it's your spirit so it can communicate with your mind".
All that is to establish the boundaries that devil spirits can't talk directly to your mind, but God can through His spirit in you.
Or they would teach God can appear in concretion, as angels can. That's 'phenomenon'.
This is all the dancing around necessary to establish VPW's "Holy Spirit" field work. They explain it that "it's your spirit so it can communicate with your mind".
All that is to establish the boundaries that devil spirits can't talk directly to your mind, but God can through His spirit in you.
The circular logic is maddening. God who is spirit and devil spirits cannot, but because it is "your" spirit it can? Just makes no sense, and not saying you are trying to say it makes sense, either. I'm just reeling. So when a person is posessed is the devil spirit their's too, since ownership seems to be the criteria for communication with spirit?
VeePee would have much better off plagarizing some star trek in this particular theory. Something like "The neuro-plasma centers in the full frontal lobotomized believer contain special diconium-peptides which enable communication with spirit once that spirit is in possession of the believer. Think of it as plugging headphones into a record player. There are many record players available but we want to be sure to plug our headphones into God's own special record player.
Ok, I think I have this cult leader thing down. I'm off to start The OldSkool International!
Say, is Pike Peak still cranking out those special Doctorate's degrees? I think I need to get me one. Dr. Oldskool, Your father in the....fill in pious sounding platitude here....!
VeePee would have much better off plagarizing some star trek in this particular theory. Something like "The neuro-plasma centers in the full frontal lobotomized believer contain special diconium-peptides which enable communication with spirit once that spirit is in possession of the believer. Think of it as plugging headphones into a record player. There are many record players available but we want to be sure to plug our headphones into God's own special record player.
VeePee would have much better off plagarizing some star trek in this particular theory. Something like "The neuro-plasma centers in the full frontal lobotomized believer contain special diconium-peptides which enable communication with spirit once that spirit is in possession of the believer. Think of it as plugging headphones into a record player. There are many record players available but we want to be sure to plug our headphones into God's own special record player.
That's really funny OldSkool! Genius!
I agree that most of what they taught (4 crucified, etc.) was of no consequence from a doctrinal standpoint. It's my opinion that a lot of the damage that was inflicted was because of the lifestyle we followed. I think this explains why some people who participated in the in-residence programs were profoundly affected while some who were active exclusively at the local level escaped relatively unscathed.
Agreed! I actually had fun in TWI sometimes before I went in residence.
I am only defing Wayspeak here. I'm not saying I agree. The logic is that if the spirit (small "s") is yours, it can now talk to you because it belongs to you. In fact, it is you, you are a spirit being. God, who is almighty, all powerful, omniscient, and omnipresent is too inept to speak to your flesh because He can only speak to what He is. But He can speak to your spirit. Since your spirit is now yours, it can speak to you, that is your mind.
You see? It's all so simple!
If this is true how did God talk to vp just before vp ordered the snowstorm that never happened?
SoCrates
Well now Gen, that's clear thinking which has no place here so stop it!
This, imo, was one of the hallmarks of TWI. They would take a subject that basically was of no consequence like this one, or "Four Crucified", "The Day Jesus Christ Died", and others, and then dissect the crap out of it. I believe it was an attempt to impress people with how "scholarly" they were as well as how concerned they were with detail. If anyone would question the relevance of the teaching, they would be scoffed at, or accused of not caring about the Truth.
I find that in most religions. Ask them what you did wrong and why your fait failed faith failed and you get a two hour dissertation of what faith means in the bible. I'm thinking of specifically of Jehovah Witnesses back in my where-was-I-wrong days. Me? Save the dissertation, just tell me where I'm in error so I can correct it.
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Gen-2
I'll go this far. That is to say ~ If God wants to talk to you, He can, He will. I don't really care how that happens, because it doesn't matter to me, just that it does.
Broken Arrow
Well now Gen, that's clear thinking which has no place here so stop it! This, imo, was one of the hallmarks of TWI. They would take a subject that basically was of no consequence like this one, or "
waysider
It's been rumored that Jimmy Hoffa is "in concretion". Does that mean he's a spirit?
Broken Arrow
I am only defing Wayspeak here. I'm not saying I agree. The logic is that if the spirit (small "s") is yours, it can now talk to you because it belongs to you. In fact, it is you, you are a spirit being. God, who is almighty, all powerful, omniscient, and omnipresent is too inept to speak to your flesh because He can only speak to what He is. But He can speak to your spirit. Since your spirit is now yours, it can speak to you, that is your mind.
You see? It's all so simple!
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waysider
Even if it were true, it would mean that God can not talk to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Shamanists>>>>>>>>>>???
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Gen-2
I'll go this far. That is to say ~ If God wants to talk to you, He can, He will. I don't really care how that happens, because it doesn't matter to me, just that it does.
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Broken Arrow
That's right! (if it were true)
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Broken Arrow
Well now Gen, that's clear thinking which has no place here so stop it!
This, imo, was one of the hallmarks of TWI. They would take a subject that basically was of no consequence like this one, or "Four Crucified", "The Day Jesus Christ Died", and others, and then dissect the crap out of it. I believe it was an attempt to impress people with how "scholarly" they were as well as how concerned they were with detail. If anyone would question the relevance of the teaching, they would be scoffed at, or accused of not caring about the Truth.
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Oakspear
It was one of those things that had me scratching my head and silently mouthing the word "huh?" during my first sitting through PFAL.
Maybe it would have made more sense if he had said that we couldn't hear the voice of God without spirit, rather than phrasing it as something that God couldn't do.
God can only give what he is...spirit...that makes no sense!
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waysider
I agree that most of what they taught (4 crucified, etc.) was of no consequence from a doctrinal standpoint. It's my opinion that a lot of the damage that was inflicted was because of the lifestyle we followed. I think this explains why some people who participated in the in-residence programs were profoundly affected while some who were active exclusively at the local level escaped relatively unscathed.
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Gen-2
Aren't there records in the Old Testament which show how God placed his spirit on people to speak with them and then removed it afterwards? Cyrus, all of Israel at one time, hell - he even made Baalam a Prophet and then when he refused to listen, spoke to him through an A__ (well-spellchecker -yanno?) uhm,... donkey-like critter. David prayed that God not take his holy spirit from him (after F'ing up).
So there's something to that,.. the individual having spirit to talk to God (and vice versa), but God can do work-arounds, the VOICE in the garden, the Burning Bush, etc...
I suspect God knows all the ways that he can talk to people. There might even be a few He hasn't used to date. One day we'll get a spiritual body like Christ and we can have a chat with God. He might be spirit - but I'll bet He has a pretty good sense of humor. hell, He puts up with us!
And Waysider, I believe you are exactly right. Many people go swimming every day without drowning. They're in the water and out of it in a small space of time. It's the ones that are suddenly pushed in or stay too long - or - God forbid - try to breathe the water, that are in the most danger. Some were fully immersed too long...! But just remember, you can drown in just a bucket of water, in just a few seconds.
As I see it, the Way Corps was like "Swimming Lessons" without a "Life-saving" course to go with it.
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Bolshevik
an exception is when god shows you his rear from a burning bush . . . that's spurt in concretion . . . whatever that means
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waysider
Yes, this is what I meant by "conditionally, on an ad hoc basis".
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OldSkool
So, God cannot make sounds or speak out loud so that we red clay beings can hear him? Really, I never knew that God was so limited.
He can't do something my toddler son can. 
Oh, boy.
God can only give what he is is almost as ridiculous. The earth is the lord's and the fullness there of. Besides that he made all that is. So he can't give any of that? Seems sort of contradictory when the bible states he gave Christ a name greater than any other name. So name's are spirit now? To quote The Forehead - "MALARKEY!"
The thing that trips me out is once I began actually questioning what the way teaches it all just fell apart. All their pseudo-logic, and junk science - Gone!
And - Bolsh - that spirit in concretion thing is a trip. I couldn't dream that up if I was tripping LSD.
The hind parts of God was explained by VeePee or Okie - doofus Forehead as God showing moses all that he would do in redeeming Israel. It's stated as hind parts because he could not show the mystery which was hidden in God. Sounds like crap to me since the "great" bible interpreters (VeePee and Forehead) always seemed to view the Bible from the great mystery vantage point.
Oh, ya - the limitation of God only speaking to spirit was to limit the adversary. That way spirits can't just drop by and start jaw boning with us. I gotta get some lunch but I would expect some sizable holes pokes in that one by the time i get back. Go get em folks!
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chockfull
Another interesting aspect to this teaching is when you start to look at the new body. For example, Christ after his resurrection appearing to many different people, including the road to Emmaus. Now supposedly the new body is "based upon spirit", whatever that means. And yet JC ate with people, walked and conversed, allowed people to touch them.
No, the Great Principle is largely a poor attempt to explain the communication between God and one of His children while trying to sound scientific. God who is spirit teaching your spirit. holy spirit. that teaching your mind. becoming manifest in the senses realm as you act.
The reality is that spirit has to be something where Newtonian physics don't apply. That goes right back down to the core of someone's beliefs, and it's why you cannot prove God to anyone outside of believing.
No, physics are involved in what you need to do, not God. Spirit is involved in our relationships with God. And who cares how the mechanics of that work - any mental model I have of that is likely to be pretty wrong, and introduce discrepancies like you guys brought up.
One kind of cool resource I liked on the evil side is that encyclopedia of ghosts and spirits. Rather than any kind of a teaching on them, it just has different articles on terms and pictures related to it.
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chockfull
Or they would teach God can appear in concretion, as angels can. That's 'phenomenon'.
This is all the dancing around necessary to establish VPW's "Holy Spirit" field work. They explain it that "it's your spirit so it can communicate with your mind".
All that is to establish the boundaries that devil spirits can't talk directly to your mind, but God can through His spirit in you.
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OldSkool
The circular logic is maddening. God who is spirit and devil spirits cannot, but because it is "your" spirit it can? Just makes no sense, and not saying you are trying to say it makes sense, either. I'm just reeling. So when a person is posessed is the devil spirit their's too, since ownership seems to be the criteria for communication with spirit?
VeePee would have much better off plagarizing some star trek in this particular theory. Something like "The neuro-plasma centers in the full frontal lobotomized believer contain special diconium-peptides which enable communication with spirit once that spirit is in possession of the believer. Think of it as plugging headphones into a record player. There are many record players available but we want to be sure to plug our headphones into God's own special record player.
Ok, I think I have this cult leader thing down. I'm off to start The OldSkool International!
Say, is Pike Peak still cranking out those special Doctorate's degrees? I think I need to get me one. Dr. Oldskool, Your father in the....fill in pious sounding platitude here....!
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chockfull
hahaha
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Broken Arrow
That's really funny OldSkool! Genius!
Agreed! I actually had fun in TWI sometimes before I went in residence.
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OldSkool
Well, circular logic sets me off, thanks!
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Gen-2
GOD: Gen-2 (Spirit Version 33.333333333333 - hereafterknown as, Gen-2.3) This is God.
Gen-2.3: Duuuuuuuuh, Like anyone else talks to me. It's a b*tch being a spirit, yanno?
GOD: Tell me about it.... Anyways, I need you to tell Gen-2 (Body & Soul Version 6.666666666666 here after known as Gen-2.6) something for me.
Gen-2.3: Why don't you tell her yourself?
GOD: That's not fair now,.... you know I have rules about this sort of stuff.
Gen-2.3: Yeah, yeah,... I know,......... I'm the "Christ within" specifically created for the Job. Why doesn't he do this?
God: Jeeeeezus, Gen-2.3 He's busy doing all sorts of Advocacy things and --- well I'd make a list - but I already did. It's called the Bible.
Meanwhile...
Gen 2.6: Oh F! A Train !!!!!!
Back to our story...
Gen-2.3 Glad to hear that, but hey, I'm a spirit, I can't read. You need "eyes" for that sort of crap, remember?
God: Don't go there with me now Gen-2.3, Just tell her to watch out for the train
Gen-2.3: Too late for that now God.... So what'cha gonna do with me now?
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Nottawayfer
That's especially true if you are Christian and believe Mary conceived from sperm created by God. Was that sperm spirit?
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Bolshevik
I don't know, but about three different jokes come to mind.
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JavaJane
Every sperm is sacred.
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waysider
It's been rumored that Jimmy Hoffa is "in concretion". Does that mean he's a spirit?
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Broken Arrow
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So_crates
If this is true how did God talk to vp just before vp ordered the snowstorm that never happened?
SoCrates
I find that in most religions. Ask them what you did wrong and why your fait failed faith failed and you get a two hour dissertation of what faith means in the bible. I'm thinking of specifically of Jehovah Witnesses back in my where-was-I-wrong days. Me? Save the dissertation, just tell me where I'm in error so I can correct it.
SoCrates
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