A consideration of 1 Cor 2:2

[Twinky]

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. ... 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. {summary of Jer 9:23}

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

(emphasis as shown in Companion Bible, not sure if this will show as that Gothic script)

(bold bit is my emphasis and what I'd like to talk about)

I'd welcome a discussion of this, the practical effects of 2:2. I excerpted a little from chapters 1 and 2, but you might like to look at the whole of both chapters before responding.

The way TWI taught this, you just spoke about the risen Christ and his accomplishments. You toured people round the epistles. You showed them what the scriptures, particularly the epistles, said – about Christ, about the hearer's status as a (spiritual) son of God (seated in the heavenlies, etc). And what Wayfers say is often said without regard to who the person is that they are speaking, and with little regard for that person's life and the things they may be having to cope with.

I meet one or two occasionally. Their mouths are full of scriptures – but their hearts seem devoid of interest in me, my life, what I might need, etc. Neither do they seem able to relate to worldly events and perhaps put a "spiritual perspective" on them (other than "works of the adversary").

I think that has to be wrong teaching. My view is that we aren't to take notice of "endless fables" and genealogies – my influential family is this, my job is that, I've got a doctorate in – blah blah. But not, that we are not to take an interest in people and their lives so far. How on earth can you win anyone to Christ, if you don't have the faintest idea of their circumstances? If you express no concern for that person? Surely then you are in serious danger of being on an almighty ego trip - look at me, how many Bible verses I know!! (Not necessarily: how well I understand those verses.)

I think Paul is saying that he's not standing in his own authority, credentials etc (though he does mention these in Phil 3:5). And he is demonstrating by his life and lifestyle how he himself knows the risen Christ.

Neither is he trying to "trick them" with enticing words, fancy words, misleading information, twisted scriptures, or preachifying at them. He stands in the authority and strength that was instilled in him on the road to Damascus. Nothing else is worthy, and definitely not his "old" life. Perhaps he is also showing Christ - by what he doesn't say.

Paul remained acutely aware of what was going on in the churches he founded, where the disputes arose, where people weren't likeminded, where they were not practicing proper principle.

When we look at the risen Christ during the time he remained with the disciples, what was he doing? Hanging out with the disciples – cooking a meal for them, still being their servant, visiting them – opening the scriptures and teaching them so that they really understood – even helping them with their businesses (John 21).

1 Pet 3:15 reminds us that we are always to be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks a reason of the hope that is in us, with meekness and fear [respect]. So clearly the lifestyle there is not one of preachifying either, such that little else is known about the speaker. Because if the person were preachifying so much – there would be no need to even ask the question, never mind give an answer.

It would seem strange if Paul did not use different methods, depending on his hearers. If speaking in a synagogue to Jews who were already instructed in the OT, he could expound the scriptures. With the "Greeks" he preached the "unknown God". And in those situations, that would be right, perhaps. There are many such records.

But when speaking with individuals or living with them (eg Lydia, Acts 16) - don't you think he might have talked with them on a more personal basis?

Discuss.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Twinky

[teachmevp]

Teaching, without saying a word.

[year2027]

God first

thanks Twinky

I am like Twinky was two fools not knowing where they should go but we saw the light of truth our Lord Jesus Christ

that has made me see greed but just any greed the greed of wanting more than i am

the greed that makes blind think that they see

but seeing is more than seeing something

but seeing no light is reflected because it does not take light but true light

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[TrustAndObey]

It would seem strange if Paul did not use different methods, depending on his hearers. If speaking in a synagogue to Jews who were already instructed in the OT, he could expound the scriptures. With the "Greeks" he preached the "unknown God". And in those situations, that would be right, perhaps. There are many such records.

But when speaking with individuals or living with them (eg Lydia, Acts 16) - don't you think he might have talked with them on a more personal basis?

Personally, I think much of the accounts in Christian writings are over-spiritualized.

Sure, Paul seems to have a method when visiting towns, visiting the synagogue, speaking concerning the basic things of Christ.

But I think when it came to actual people, one on one, or groups, it was all personal. It was just sharings of the heart with one another. How else can you find their need? I feel that way about Sat. or Sun churches that have large groups. The typical pastor has to pick something he thinks will meet the majority needs of everyone. Yet it won't meet everyones. It can't. Too much diversity. When it talks about Paul "long preaching" in one section even past midnight, it uses the word dialegomia, dialogue, discussions.. No doubt, when you have too large a group, you really can't effectively dialogue with em all, but "I think" the best times are those one on one, or small groups where everyone's hearts are able to be reached because there's two way communication. There's the ability to get into where each person is at and needs, as opposed to just the basic broad subjects that are hit n miss (IMO).. Just cause some sections people didn't want to hear Paul again, didn't mean their hearts weren't for God, it could be, what was shared just didn't seem to "hit" at that day/time/hour...

[Twinky]

T&O, I think you have a good point there. It really was much more of a discussion than a sit-still-and-keep-quiet sort of thing.

We see the young Jesus in the temple - asking questions of the educated rabbis of the time, seeking their views and opinions.

We see the passionate Paul, debating with the Greeks - and they will "hear him again." Go away, think about it, mull it over, ask more questions. Bring to bear their critical thinking skills.

I find I myself learn much more when I'm sharing with someone, and have to "defend" my point of view, not that a defence is necessary, rather that it's a more detailed explanation or showing the logic. Others ask questions, and you (I) have to think about what you (I) think you (I) know.

It's not "done" with a large congregation (or even a small one!) - why not? Would it become too disorderly? Ingrained fear of church ministers of being challenged? Ingrained submissiveness of congregations - or their lack of thorough Biblical teaching?

In my church, the person delivering the sermon also writes a short note of the main points s/he covers and then poses a few questions, maybe 4-6, and these are discussed in the small groups (about 10-15 people) where each person gets to say what they think. It can be a thought-provoking time. My small group and I thought each other's ideas rather bizarre, when I first started going. The way someone might say, "but what about ...?" would point out flaws of TWI teachings, that might have been red-flagged at the time, but there was little time to discuss with others due to the mind-numbing length of sermons. (In that, TWI is not unique; I've been to other church services where the preacher has gone on too long.)

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So how much, then, should one relate personal anecdotes - "what God has done for me" - type of thing?

Ever? Never? If so, when?

[TrustAndObey]

So how much, then, should one relate personal anecdotes - "what God has done for me" - type of thing?

Ever? Never? If so, when?

As God leads.. As you see the need.

I don't think making doctrine out of when you should do this or that is good for the spirit.. It can strangle the spirit and put God in a box.. And I do believe Christ is very capable at being the head of His body and leading us.. And God is very capable of showing us what we need to know to help when we look to help others.

[TrustAndObey]

It's not "done" with a large congregation (or even a small one!) - why not? Would it become too disorderly? Ingrained fear of church ministers of being challenged? Ingrained submissiveness of congregations - or their lack of thorough Biblical teaching?

Maybe many do not do it this way.. But I know many that do.. They are certainly smaller groups, 20-25 at the most maybe.. But open for anyone.. They usually have "elders", those who are older, been in the groups awhile, and usually seasoned from either being pastors in their previous life or those who have studied.. It just depends on what your need is. Christ's body is diverse for that reason..

Edited June 18, 2010 by TrustAndObey