In the late-'60s, Dave Arneson hosted a miniatures gaming group in his parents' basement. They were primarily interested in Napoleonic miniatures campaigns, and they came up with some systems for figuring out what their generals were doing between battles. Dave Wesley took those systems and ran a spy-type skirmish game where the miniatures represented individual characters. After a weekend of watching too many old grade-B monster movies, Dave Arneson took Wesley's individual character rules and created a fantasy setting he called Blackmoor, where individual characters could fight fantasy monsters. Arneson demonstrated the game for Gary Gygax at Lake Geneva, WI, and just about the same time, took PFAL. Gygax decided to collaborate on a version to be published by Tactical Studies Rules, and thus D&D was released in the fall of 1974, and became a surprising success.
Arneson was not possessed. He was a genius at story-telling. He was one of the humblest and kindest people I have ever known. Arneson tithed tens of thousands of dollars a year to TWI from his income off of D&D, and TWI was happy to accept it. When Wierwille and other "leadership" came to the Twin Cities, Dave was always invited to the parties regular believers didn't get to go to. At Word in Business and Profession conferences, which he liked to attend, he was held up as an example of a successful believer, because of his income. Leadership waited till he was out of hearing to talk trash about D&D.
I personally think God inspired recreational role-playing to serve as a laboratory for exercising a person's moral imagination. I think Gygax dragged it down for commercial reasons.
I think there was more "possession" involved in the production of PFAL, and especially Athletes of the Spirit, than there was in the production OR the playing of D&D.
Love,
Steve
Greetings, game geeks!
In the late '60s, there was a group of gamers who met in Dave Arneson's basement (still living with his mom and dad in St. Paul at that time). Those gamers mainly played Napoleonic miniatures. They included Dave McGarry, David Wesley, Ross Maker, and others whose names I don't recall. They went from individual battles to playing campaigns, and they came up with rules to decide what their generals were doing between battles.
David Wesley took some of those rules and came up with what they called a "Brownstein". The tabletop represented the island of Brownstein, where the characters had their adventures. The setting was contemporary and the characters were James Bond types.
Arneson took Wesley's ideas and translated them into the fantasy setting which he called "Blackmoor". Tactical Studies Rules of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, of which E. Gary Gygax was a principle, had published a set of medieval miniatures rules called "Chainmail". Since "Chainmail" included rules for fantasy characters such as orcs, elves and trolls, Arneson used the "Chainmail" rules for resolving combat in his "Blackmoor" campaign.
There was a game club in the upper midwest called the "Castle and Crusade Society" sponsored by TSR, which also sponsored the convention known as GenCon (Lake Geneva Convention). Arneson brought his "Blackmoor" campaign to Gygax's attention in the early '70s, and Gygax decided to publish the game. Arneson and Gygax collaborated on the product published as "Dungeons & Dragons".
Several months before "D&D" was published in the fall of '74, Arneson first took foundational PFAL.
I took PFAL in the summer of '80. I was aware from a mention in a game-magazine article that Arneson was also involved with TWI. Almost immediately after I graduated from PFAL, I went to GenCon and introduced myself to Dave. We've been friends ever since, even through the split up of TWI. I worked for Adventure Games Incorporated for several years in the early- to mid-'80s, and Dave was one of my spiritual partners when I was in the Corps.
In 1979, when TSR published "AD&D", they tried to shaft Arneson out of his royalties. Dave sued, and the lawyers went through "D&D" with a fine tooth comb. Each and every line was attributed to either Arneson or Gygax.
In my opinion, David Wesley invented the concept of recreational role-playing as we understand it today. Arneson adapted Wesley's concept to a fantasy setting, and Gygax worked together with Arneson to elaborate and publish the game. TSR always built up Gygax contribution and down-played Arrneson's, for commercial reasons.
Arneson was the only person involved with the original development of "D&D" who was also involved with TWI. In "D&D"'s hayday, Arneson was tithing in the five figures annually to the Way Int'l. The Trustees knew who he was, and when they were in the upper midwest, invited him to bashes that regular believers didn't get invited to. Then, behind his back, they would malign as devilish the game that was bringing in so many ABS dollars.
Arneson was never in the Corps himself, but he sponsored many, many people. He went out WOW once. I think it was in '85.
He is a good guy, and has moved on with his life.
By the way, MiniCorpsConscript, I may have hung around Arneson's apartment with you back in the mid-'80s.
Love,
Steve
Dave Arneson, the inventor and co-author of Dungeons & Dragons took Foundational PFAL about a year or so before D&D was published in the fall of '74. He faithfully practiced abundant sharing, and 10% of the royalties he made off of D&D went to HQ. It was no small piece of change! In the tens of thousands per year. The people at HQ knew him. Whenever they came to the Twin Cities, Arneson got invited to the parties "regular" believers didn't even hear about. They were all buddy-buddy to his face, including Wierwille himself, but then they turned around and excoriated D&D as the work of the devil in their classes.
Love,
Steve
There's a bit more information on the Dave Arneson thread.
Big Far Unsubstantiated Claims? Where does one begin? Let's see, Barbara Streisand was seed. Michael Jackson was possessed.
Seems pretty self-evident. :)
Muhammad Ali was seed (LCM). It was a devil spirit that ko'd Sonny Liston in the title fight. We know this because no one saw the punch that knocked him out.
Actually, LCM recanted this later, saying that MA probably got born again when he was young (in a Christian home). His MANAGER was the "seed boy."
One of the singers in the early Prince band (Gail C.) did take the class, went corps..etc etc.
but there were all sorts of other rumors about other bands being involved (Foghat, Billy Joel, Kansas..In fact Kansas supposedly left in the early 70's then wrote "Carry On My Wayward Son" about leaving TWI
Heck I dont know and I really dont care about that stuff--there was always someone name dropping going on to attempt to gain an air of legitimacy.
Michael Jordan was also possessed (or maybe seed I forget) which is why he could leap like no one else..
I heard a different story about the submarine than the one above but it was still miraculously saved---as was, now that I think of it, an aircraft carrier, that surely would have sunk in an uncharted coral reef if a believer hadnt been listening to God.
The healing from AIDS story was from Martindale at an ROA when the whole country was in a panic and no cure was known...
Im sure there are a jillion other things but thankfully Ive forgotten them
Thanks for posting those things, WordWolf. Arneson had much more influence on our world as a whole, and positive influence at that, than Wierwille ever had. Attendence at GenCon usually surpasses attendence at the Rock of Ages at its heighth.
Who was the Indy 500 driver that (supposedly) took the class? Cheever?
Salt Walther.
Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics was possessed.
Bill Russell was possessed????? :o
I'm sorry you had to hear it this way, Waysider. Yes, LCM read Russell's autobiography. Russell explains that he heard a voice saying that he was "o.k." That unquestionably was a devil spirit. Wow! what discernment! Anyway, LCM read it to us at Region meeting one year. Guess he wanted the body of Christ to be warned about the dangers or a retired basketball player known as Bill Russell that most people to that point had never heard of.
Don't worry though, Waysider. As far as we know, LeBron is o.k.
I'm sorry you had to hear it this way, Waysider. Yes, LCM read Russell's autobiography. Russell explains that he heard a voice saying that he was "o.k." That unquestionably was a devil spirit. Wow! what discernment! Anyway, LCM read it to us at Region meeting one year. Guess he wanted the body of Christ to be warned about the dangers or a retired basketball player known as Bill Russell that most people to that point had never heard of.
Don't worry though, Waysider. As far as we know, LeBron is o.k.
Now this brings up memories. LeBron was after the Forehead's time. However, Michael Jordan was not. And guess what?
Yes, POSSESSED. At least according to Forehead logic.
Michael did a post-finals interview where he made the comment something like "I said a little prayer to myself". Forehead understood that to mean he was praying to himself as a deity. Hence possession.
One of the singers in the early Prince band (Gail C.) did take the class, went corps..etc etc.
but there were all sorts of other rumors about other bands being involved (Foghat, Billy Joel, Kansas..In fact Kansas supposedly left in the early 70's then wrote "Carry On My Wayward Son" about leaving TWI
Gail was part of a band I did sound for in NY around '81-'82. She told some great stories about working with Prince before he hit it big. She said she believed he was Christian. Gail was a grad for at least part of the time she was with him, but left as he started to go more towards the sexy side. She was great on keys and had a unique voice. Understand she is back in MN.
Can't speak to Billy Joel, but do know that some of the guys from PDSTRO were friends with his band members. Got to go to Liberty DeVito's house once to help set up equipment with Joe & Ralph. Don't know if he or any one else ever made it to a 'function'.
Gail was part of a band I did sound for in NY around '81-'82. She told some great stories about working with Prince before he hit it big. She said she believed he was Christian. Gail was a grad for at least part of the time she was with him, but left as he started to go more towards the sexy side. She was great on keys and had a unique voice. Understand she is back in MN.
Oh how the telephone game works to get new students and add legitimacy. I had heard that Prince took the class. Come to find out you blow holes all in that little fable. Then they turn around and do a character assassination on him because I too was told he sold out, made it big, got possessed and whatever else I have forgotten about.
It really doesn't matter who else took the class. Or didn't.
And since we never got any formal documentation of any of TWI's claims, well, who knows?
Methinks if there had been anything so amazingly awesomely good, such as some of thte incidents in this thread, TWI would have made a real big deal of it and documented it all over the place. Newspaper clippings and what have you. Perhaps a lot of the documentation disappeared into the same place as the piece of paper that said boys conceived prior to their parents' marriage were bar mitzvah'd at age 12 (which couldn't have happened anyway).
I have no doubt, though, that at least occasionally there were quiet miracles happening that we never got to hear about, simply because they were at a local level.
I have no doubt, though, that at least occasionally there were quiet miracles happening that we never got to hear about, simply because they were at a local level.
I have no doubt as well... God still worked in people despite those people being involved in twi, especially at the local fellowship level.
I apologize for any confusion. My reference to LeBron was intended as a joke to Waysider since LeBron plays (at least for now) for the Cleveland Cavaliers and Waysider lives in Northern Ohio. No one in TWI made any reference to LeBron James as far as I know.
Actually, LCM recanted this later, saying that MA probably got born again when he was young (in a Christian home). His MANAGER was the "seed boy."
George
Now that's just funny! He shouted about Muhammad Ali being a "seed boy" with such conviction. Especially the part about the winning punch being powered by a devil spirit. Now, for some reason, "oops!"
Now that's just funny! He shouted about Muhammad Ali being a "seed boy" with such conviction. Especially the part about the winning punch being powered by a devil spirit. Now, for some reason, "oops!"
Hey, just because MA wasn't seed, doesn't mean he wasn't possessed!
I worked at HQ for 9 years, 7 of them in a department that had a project of revising the old SNS notes from the 1960s and early 1970s. (Of course, there were huge gaps in the tape numbers because they only kept the ones that were taught by people who were still "standing" with the ministry. And by the 2000s, about the only ones left from the 1960s and 1970s were Wierwille (father and son), M@l Ge*rge, and B*b M*ynih@n.)
One of the duties in revising these notes was to remove any material that could be considered offensive to a group or person by making claims (usually by attaching some form of "spiritual") that were in reality unsubstantiated. I remember one teaching when Vic was naming off all these corporations that were getting really big and strong in the US, and he was saying that these were all run by seed of the serpent men and women. One corporation that he named was IBM. Um, yeah, they provide technology products and services. Seed of the serpent, huh? Is that because to be truly great one has to be either seed or in the Way ministry? And the IBM big cheese apparently wasn't listening to VPW's great new light to his generation. Of course, I'm sure if the big cheese ever heard that teaching, those kind words would have won him over in a heartbeat. Of course, had to edit that out of the teaching notes. Wouldn't want anyone to read that in print, ya know.
Any other big fat but unsubstantiated "spiritual" claims?
Very interesting job you had! WOW. And that doesn't stand for Word over the World, either.
This "editing" has a long history beginning at least from my view back in 1985 or so when Rosalie was head of Way Pub. I believe part of the task list at that time was to be sure the Studies in Abundant Living series chapters didn't have any teachings that contradicted other ones. In the Research Dept., the task of "editing" from our view would be impossible, since PFAL is already distributed in many forms. Thus, the teaching on Eli Eli, for instance, could never be corrected or if it were, distributing the new information to everyone on earth who ever took the PFAL would be impossible, too. This was also the case for the problems with other stuff in PFAL that W*later C. knew was mixed up or wrong...
Aside from all that, in my view, the entire premise VP started from is an unsubstantiated claim: The Bible is inerrant.
Very interesting job you had! WOW. And that doesn't stand for Word over the World, either.
This "editing" has a long history beginning at least from my view back in 1985 or so when Rosalie was head of Way Pub. I believe part of the task list at that time was to be sure the Studies in Abundant Living series chapters didn't have any teachings that contradicted other ones. In the Research Dept., the task of "editing" from our view would be impossible, since PFAL is already distributed in many forms. Thus, the teaching on Eli Eli, for instance, could never be correctedor if it were, distributing the new information to everyone on earth who ever took the PFAL would be impossible, too. This was also the case for the problems with other stuff in PFAL that W*later C. knew was mixed up or wrong...
Aside from all that, in my view, the entire premise VP started from is an unsubstantiated claim: The Bible is inerrant.
Cheers!
This is proof that they base the truth of their teachings only on the teachings of VPW, not "The Word Of God", not the Bible... So much for THE NEW DYNAMIC CHURCH, always changing and growing. So much for meekness.
When your measure of truth is the words of one fallible man, then what truth do you have in you??
When you are confronted with your error, you should CHANGE it.
No "thus saith the Lord" in twi - instead it's "THUS SAITH VICTOR PAUL WEIRWILLE!"
If that isn't idolatry, I don't know what is. At least the Catholic church has stated they were wrong when they thought the world was flat! And TWI preaches against the "ex cathedra" word of the Pope. Why? What makes it any different than the word of Victor Paul Weirwille??
In the Research Dept., the task of "editing" from our view would be impossible, since PFAL is already distributed in many forms. Thus, the teaching on Eli Eli, for instance, could never be corrected or if it were, distributing the new information to everyone on earth who ever took the PFAL would be impossible, too.
Maybe that's why it seemed their modus operandi was never to let anyone know they made a mistake.. At least not publicly to the masses. Since there was once I heard them make a correction at the "noon meal" at HQ, but they weren't going to share that with the rest of the public..
Maybe that's why it seemed their modus operandi was never to let anyone know they made a mistake.. At least not publicly to the masses. Since there was once I heard them make a correction at the "noon meal" at HQ, but they weren't going to share that with the rest of the public..
You know one way I heard it told was that the errant statements were left in on purpose, to show the progression of the ministry and how "we change when we learn better." The contradictions should be viewed as historical information, and we should always resolve conflict by siting the most current teaching. The "present truth" is accurate teaching.
I agree it is not changed to avoid admitting mistakes. (One admission after all opens the door to countless other admissions that are in order.) I also think the contradictions are left on purpose to retain a certain ambiguity and deny-ability. Aside from the topics already mentioned - can you lose rewards or can't you? is the judgement for reward and punishment or reward only? Is debt always wrong or is it sometimes acceptable? What is god's view premarital and extramarital sex? Just a few moving targets that come to mind. The answer depends on the time and the teacher. Written and verbal teaching present another gap in consistency.
It is fascinating to hear some of these accounts though of attempts at homogenizing the message behind the scenes.
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Steve Lortz
I think the whole Advanced Class was ONE Big Fat (but unsubstantiated) Claim! Love, Steve
Bolshevik
I heard MC Hammer was "bad and a grad" . . . but I can't substantiate that
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WordWolf
There's a bit more information on the Dave Arneson thread.
http://www.dorktower.com/2009/04/08/dork-tower-april-8-2009-thanks-dave/
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html
http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=21806
http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/front-page460.php
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GeorgeStGeorge
Seems pretty self-evident. :)
Actually, LCM recanted this later, saying that MA probably got born again when he was young (in a Christian home). His MANAGER was the "seed boy."
George
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mstar1
One of the singers in the early Prince band (Gail C.) did take the class, went corps..etc etc.
but there were all sorts of other rumors about other bands being involved (Foghat, Billy Joel, Kansas..In fact Kansas supposedly left in the early 70's then wrote "Carry On My Wayward Son" about leaving TWI
Heck I dont know and I really dont care about that stuff--there was always someone name dropping going on to attempt to gain an air of legitimacy.
Michael Jordan was also possessed (or maybe seed I forget) which is why he could leap like no one else..
I heard a different story about the submarine than the one above but it was still miraculously saved---as was, now that I think of it, an aircraft carrier, that surely would have sunk in an uncharted coral reef if a believer hadnt been listening to God.
The healing from AIDS story was from Martindale at an ROA when the whole country was in a panic and no cure was known...
Im sure there are a jillion other things but thankfully Ive forgotten them
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Steve Lortz
Thanks for posting those things, WordWolf. Arneson had much more influence on our world as a whole, and positive influence at that, than Wierwille ever had. Attendence at GenCon usually surpasses attendence at the Rock of Ages at its heighth.
Love,
Steve
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Tzaia
Who was the Indy 500 driver that (supposedly) took the class? Cheever?
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bliss
The
WORD
is
OVER
the
WORLD!!!!
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waysider
Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics was possessed.
Bill Russell was possessed????? :o
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Broken Arrow
Salt Walther.
I'm sorry you had to hear it this way, Waysider. Yes, LCM read Russell's autobiography. Russell explains that he heard a voice saying that he was "o.k." That unquestionably was a devil spirit. Wow! what discernment! Anyway, LCM read it to us at Region meeting one year. Guess he wanted the body of Christ to be warned about the dangers or a retired basketball player known as Bill Russell that most people to that point had never heard of.
Don't worry though, Waysider. As far as we know, LeBron is o.k.
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chockfull
Now this brings up memories. LeBron was after the Forehead's time. However, Michael Jordan was not. And guess what?
Yes, POSSESSED. At least according to Forehead logic.
Michael did a post-finals interview where he made the comment something like "I said a little prayer to myself". Forehead understood that to mean he was praying to himself as a deity. Hence possession.
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Kevin Fallon
Gail was part of a band I did sound for in NY around '81-'82. She told some great stories about working with Prince before he hit it big. She said she believed he was Christian. Gail was a grad for at least part of the time she was with him, but left as he started to go more towards the sexy side. She was great on keys and had a unique voice. Understand she is back in MN.
Can't speak to Billy Joel, but do know that some of the guys from PDSTRO were friends with his band members. Got to go to Liberty DeVito's house once to help set up equipment with Joe & Ralph. Don't know if he or any one else ever made it to a 'function'.
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OldSkool
Oh how the telephone game works to get new students and add legitimacy. I had heard that Prince took the class. Come to find out you blow holes all in that little fable. Then they turn around and do a character assassination on him because I too was told he sold out, made it big, got possessed and whatever else I have forgotten about.
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Twinky
It really doesn't matter who else took the class. Or didn't.
And since we never got any formal documentation of any of TWI's claims, well, who knows?
Methinks if there had been anything so amazingly awesomely good, such as some of thte incidents in this thread, TWI would have made a real big deal of it and documented it all over the place. Newspaper clippings and what have you. Perhaps a lot of the documentation disappeared into the same place as the piece of paper that said boys conceived prior to their parents' marriage were bar mitzvah'd at age 12 (which couldn't have happened anyway).
I have no doubt, though, that at least occasionally there were quiet miracles happening that we never got to hear about, simply because they were at a local level.
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JavaJane
I have no doubt as well... God still worked in people despite those people being involved in twi, especially at the local fellowship level.
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waysider
All the name dropping was really just a gimmick they used to try to lend credibility to their product.
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OldSkool
Can you say epic fail?
Now they are stuck dropping falsehoods that happened supposedly happened20 to 30 years ago....
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Broken Arrow
I apologize for any confusion. My reference to LeBron was intended as a joke to Waysider since LeBron plays (at least for now) for the Cleveland Cavaliers and Waysider lives in Northern Ohio. No one in TWI made any reference to LeBron James as far as I know.
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Broken Arrow
Now that's just funny! He shouted about Muhammad Ali being a "seed boy" with such conviction. Especially the part about the winning punch being powered by a devil spirit. Now, for some reason, "oops!"
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waysider
But they call LeBron "King James".
Surely there must be a spiritual significance to that.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Hey, just because MA wasn't seed, doesn't mean he wasn't possessed!
George
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penworks
Very interesting job you had! WOW. And that doesn't stand for Word over the World, either.
This "editing" has a long history beginning at least from my view back in 1985 or so when Rosalie was head of Way Pub. I believe part of the task list at that time was to be sure the Studies in Abundant Living series chapters didn't have any teachings that contradicted other ones. In the Research Dept., the task of "editing" from our view would be impossible, since PFAL is already distributed in many forms. Thus, the teaching on Eli Eli, for instance, could never be corrected or if it were, distributing the new information to everyone on earth who ever took the PFAL would be impossible, too. This was also the case for the problems with other stuff in PFAL that W*later C. knew was mixed up or wrong...
Aside from all that, in my view, the entire premise VP started from is an unsubstantiated claim: The Bible is inerrant.
Cheers!
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JavaJane
This is proof that they base the truth of their teachings only on the teachings of VPW, not "The Word Of God", not the Bible... So much for THE NEW DYNAMIC CHURCH, always changing and growing. So much for meekness.
When your measure of truth is the words of one fallible man, then what truth do you have in you??
When you are confronted with your error, you should CHANGE it.
No "thus saith the Lord" in twi - instead it's "THUS SAITH VICTOR PAUL WEIRWILLE!"
If that isn't idolatry, I don't know what is. At least the Catholic church has stated they were wrong when they thought the world was flat! And TWI preaches against the "ex cathedra" word of the Pope. Why? What makes it any different than the word of Victor Paul Weirwille??
oh, yeah... the Pope can admit mistakes.
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TrustAndObey
Maybe that's why it seemed their modus operandi was never to let anyone know they made a mistake.. At least not publicly to the masses. Since there was once I heard them make a correction at the "noon meal" at HQ, but they weren't going to share that with the rest of the public..
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shortfuse
You know one way I heard it told was that the errant statements were left in on purpose, to show the progression of the ministry and how "we change when we learn better." The contradictions should be viewed as historical information, and we should always resolve conflict by siting the most current teaching. The "present truth" is accurate teaching.
I agree it is not changed to avoid admitting mistakes. (One admission after all opens the door to countless other admissions that are in order.) I also think the contradictions are left on purpose to retain a certain ambiguity and deny-ability. Aside from the topics already mentioned - can you lose rewards or can't you? is the judgement for reward and punishment or reward only? Is debt always wrong or is it sometimes acceptable? What is god's view premarital and extramarital sex? Just a few moving targets that come to mind. The answer depends on the time and the teacher. Written and verbal teaching present another gap in consistency.
It is fascinating to hear some of these accounts though of attempts at homogenizing the message behind the scenes.
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