Any other big fat but unsubstantiated "spiritual" claims?
From LCM's rants regarding successful people - "The adversary always demands his pound of flesh!"
So.....if I am unsuccessful unbeliever and have fallen on hard times it's an attack of the adversary. If I am successful and fallen on hard times it's the devil exacting his pound of flesh that I promised in exchange for my success. If I am a believer fallen on hard times I am being persecuted for my stand on da werd / or I am being attacked for my lack of believing or fear.
Yup. The entire thing was designed to keep us in submission and keep the money rolling in. Now, I refuse to pay homage to any man. Submission did not come naturally to me back then and now I just don't do it at all.
If we leave da ministry.....we will become GREASESPOTS by midnight!
Oh yeah, that's one of the best ever! I guess it's different for the MOG who spoke this phrase because he was forced out of the ministry so he's not a greasespot now?
How about cancer being caused by devil spirits?
Or if you get out of fellowship for just a moment the devil can whack ya in a split second?
This one might actually be true - maybe someone here can confirm.
Dungeons and Dragons was invented by a twi believer who had gone off the deep end and gotten himself possessed.
In the late-'60s, Dave Arneson hosted a miniatures gaming group in his parents' basement. They were primarily interested in Napoleonic miniatures campaigns, and they came up with some systems for figuring out what their generals were doing between battles. Dave Wesley took those systems and ran a spy-type skirmish game where the miniatures represented individual characters. After a weekend of watching too many old grade-B monster movies, Dave Arneson took Wesley's individual character rules and created a fantasy setting he called Blackmoor, where individual characters could fight fantasy monsters. Arneson demonstrated the game for Gary Gygax at Lake Geneva, WI, and just about the same time, took PFAL. Gygax decided to collaborate on a version to be published by Tactical Studies Rules, and thus D&D was released in the fall of 1974, and became a surprising success.
Arneson was not possessed. He was a genius at story-telling. He was one of the humblest and kindest people I have ever known. Arneson tithed tens of thousands of dollars a year to TWI from his income off of D&D, and TWI was happy to accept it. When Wierwille and other "leadership" came to the Twin Cities, Dave was always invited to the parties regular believers didn't get to go to. At Word in Business and Profession conferences, which he liked to attend, he was held up as an example of a successful believer, because of his income. Leadership waited till he was out of hearing to talk trash about D&D.
I personally think God inspired recreational role-playing to serve as a laboratory for exercising a person's moral imagination. I think Gygax dragged it down for commercial reasons.
I think there was more "possession" involved in the production of PFAL, and especially Athletes of the Spirit, than there was in the production OR the playing of D&D.
Arneson was not possessed. He was a genius at story-telling. He was one of the humblest and kindest people I have ever known. Arneson tithed tens of thousands of dollars a year to TWI from his income off of D&D, and TWI was happy to accept it. When Wierwille and other "leadership" came to the Twin Cities, Dave was always invited to the parties regular believers didn't get to go to. At Word in Business and Profession conferences, which he liked to attend, he was held up as an example of a successful believer, because of his income. Leadership waited till he was out of hearing to talk trash about D&D.
The man donated thousands of dollars..."example of a successful believer"...Special treatment...
Doesn't kowtow and moves on with life. Thereby becomes possessed...
Gee. After all God had done for him. All those doors that had been opened for him. Who knows what was on offer at the special parties. Maybe that's why he left.
The man donated thousands of dollars..."example of a successful believer"...Special treatment...
Doesn't kowtow and moves on with life. Thereby becomes possessed...
Gee. After all God had done for him. All those doors that had been opened for him. Who knows what was on offer at the special parties. Maybe that's why he left.
They never offered anything more than booze or cigarettes (maybe a cigar or two) to Dave at the parties, but Dave didn't smoke, and he didn't drink because of diabetes. He wasn't one of those followers considered spurtully mature enuff (he was never Way Corps) to handle any "sin consciouness" more heavy duty than that. Dave would have left if he had known about the adultery. As it was, I think his branch coordinator pulled the branch out when Martindale required personal fealty. I wasn't up in Minnesota at that particular time. Dave had no regrets about his generosity, to TWI or anybody else. His marriage broke up after his wife took Momentus, and he didn't. Dave was too leery to be sucked back in by the time Victor Barnard did his thing in the Twin Cities.
Dave died of cancer last year. He was a staunch Christian and friend until the end.
Dave died of cancer last year. He was a staunch Christian and friend until the end.
Love,
Steve
Steve, I am sorry for your loss. I am sickened to hear about this man, dragged through the mud without cause. Now I understand why they to THIS day speak out over D&D! YOu have any idea how many times I have heard it told that if you play D&D it will get you possessed? And come to find out it originated from the same old character assassination handed to so many of who gave our time, money, life, whatever to these jerks.
Arneson was not possessed. He was a genius at story-telling. He was one of the humblest and kindest people I have ever known. Arneson tithed tens of thousands of dollars a year to TWI from his income off of D&D, and TWI was happy to accept it. When Wierwille and other "leadership" came to the Twin Cities, Dave was always invited to the parties regular believers didn't get to go to. At Word in Business and Profession conferences, which he liked to attend, he was held up as an example of a successful believer, because of his income. Leadership waited till he was out of hearing to talk trash about D&D.
I personally think God inspired recreational role-playing to serve as a laboratory for exercising a person's moral imagination. I think Gygax dragged it down for commercial reasons.
I think there was more "possession" involved in the production of PFAL, and especially Athletes of the Spirit, than there was in the production OR the playing of D&D.
Love,
Steve
Amazing! Thank you so much for this background!! And I agree, role-playing does allow people to exercise their moral imagination. I enjoyed playing D&D when I was younger, around the time my family got involved with twi. It didn't last long, but I enjoyed the game. When I went WOW, I was told the messed up version of this story. I have always wondered if it had any truth to it.
They never offered anything more than booze or cigarettes (maybe a cigar or two) to Dave at the parties, but Dave didn't smoke, and he didn't drink because of diabetes. He wasn't one of those followers considered spurtully mature enuff (he was never Way Corps) to handle any "sin consciouness" more heavy duty than that. Dave would have left if he had known about the adultery. As it was, I think his branch coordinator pulled the branch out when Martindale required personal fealty. I wasn't up in Minnesota at that particular time. Dave had no regrets about his generosity, to TWI or anybody else. His marriage broke up after his wife took Momentus, and he didn't. Dave was too leery to be sucked back in by the time Victor Barnard did his thing in the Twin Cities.
Dave died of cancer last year. He was a staunch Christian and friend until the end.
Love,
Steve
He sounds llike he was a wonderful person. Probably too "creative" for twi. Games like D&D really inspire people to use their imaginations, which was not generally encouraged in twi. I am sorry for your loss, Steve.
I never heard any bad press about D&D, and enjoyed playing it growing up. A group of us in our church youth group in high school would play it in our church basement, sometimes all night! That always gave the church ladies something to talk about, but our pastor was cool with it.
That game was probably the predecessor to most of the modern role-based video games, including World of Warcraft, the most popular. Come to think of it WoW are the commonly used initials of that game. I'm sure TWI could get some mileage out of that!!!
Time to get Colombo on the horn, Rosie! LAWSUIT!!!!!!
Yeah, really. You would think though that 'Colombo' eventually would do enough 'investigating' to come to the conclusion that his clients there are scum. But I'm sure that $250/hr or whatever his billable rate is alleviates that pretty quickly.
But I'm sure that $250/hr or whatever his billable rate is alleviates that pretty quickly.
Yep, that is sure to make things all better.
On the other hand, how does one sleep at night knowing the history of abuse and all the details about how wide spread and destructive it was. Really, the man should have stepped back and let it all burn. Instead he steps in to salvage it. Oh well. Maybe what they say about lawyers is true.
And anymore, I would never put it past Rosie and the gang to pass on a good lawsuit. Litigious they have become.
Any other big fat but unsubstantiated "spiritual" claims?
When I was in in the end of the 70's and most of the 80's there was always some story or another of somebody being raised from the dead, or being cured of cancer or AIDS someplace else from wherever I was.
I never met any of these people but there ws no shortage of it in the gossip line.
Maybe these are more 'urban myths' than claims.
I heard a story being passed around in the late 70's about a WOW who was contemplating leaving the field...He happened to be walking down some street past a phone booth(remember those?)in California someplace while he was deciding whether to leave or not when the phone in the booth rang...
For no particular reson he picked up the phone as he was walking past and Lo and Behold who is it but Wierwille on the phone calling by 'revelation' to implore him to stay on the field "For God"
Yea Surrre
In my experience there was always some new outlandish story or unsubstantiated claim somewhere.
The guy who saved a nuclear sub from sinking....
A guy who ran on a field during a high school fooball game and put a broken bone ( that ws sticking out of the guys shoulder! back in place, then the whole town took the class
the next week.
People who drove to the ROA with no gas in the tank, or fell asleep while driving for 8 hours while "guardian angels took the wheel"
At one point it seemed like it never ended.
It was such a chaos of imaginative and wishful thinking to gain acceptance that for awhile it was the norm where I was
I myself was able to hold back an entire hurricane and also mend bone with my xray vision (joking) until I got better
Big Far Unsubstantiated Claims? Where does one begin? Let's see, Barbara Streisand was seed. Michael Jackson was possessed. Every head of every denomination was seed, Dr. Wierwille had the original idea for fast food but the businessmen he shared the idea with didn't listen to him. Therefore, since the idea was now in the senses world, the Devil gave the idea to Ray Kroc and McDonald's was started. Stupid businessmen.
Muhammad Ali was seed (LCM). It was a devil spirit that ko'd Sonny Liston in the title fight. We know this because no one saw the punch that knocked him out. Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics was possessed.
If you lead someone to the new birth prior to them taking PFAL, they could die. That's because once they're saved their guardian angel leaves and if the person doesn't know how to renew their mind they're "sitting ducks" for the adverssary. The Rolling Stones were seed, I think the Beatles were seed also, but I'm not sure.
Finally, John Lennon was killed because the Devil was through with him (LCM).
The Illuminati runs the government behind the scenes. We were in Viet Nam to protect Roman Catholic real estate interests. The whole topic of Israel and the anti-Semitic BS there - the diary of Anne Frank was a forgery, 'The Myth of the Six Million', etc.
I heard a story being passed around in the late 70's about a WOW who was contemplating leaving the field...He happened to be walking down some street past a phone booth(remember those?)in California someplace while he was deciding whether to leave or not when the phone in the booth rang...
For no particular reson he picked up the phone as he was walking past and Lo and Behold who is it but Wierwille on the phone calling by 'revelation' to implore him to stay on the field "For God"
Yea Surrre
I heard this same fable from one of the old timers while rehearsing the bad old days for me, and lamenting that the love had faded in the current way ministry that this sort of thing didn't happen any longer.
...here was always some story or another of somebody being raised from the dead, or being cured of cancer or AIDS
AIDS? Really? Wherever I was, it was a big "hush hush" if someone had AIDS. Why? (Here's another one) Homosexuality is the next worse thing to being born of the seed of the serpent. So, in my circle, if someone claimed to heal someone else from aids the next question would have been if they cast out the spirit on homosexuality. I'm not arguing, I'm just pointing another unsubstantiated lie.
I think that one actually happened. It's not as outlandish as it may sound. It was a case where the sub temporarily lost it's "steering" and quick repairs were made after praying. Prayer was made and the sailor believes the prayer prevented a collision with another vessel. Do I know for a fact it was true? No, but the story, the way he told it, was believable. I'm sure it got more outlandish as the story was re-told.
I heard the AIDs thing, too. In the story I heard the healing took place in Florida.
And how there were all these believers who were supposed to work at the World Trade Center on 9/11 who were all given revelation to call in sick that day so NO BELIEVERS were hurt on 9/11.
And... Prince took PFAL, but left afterwards because he was possessed.
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Steve Lortz
I think the whole Advanced Class was ONE Big Fat (but unsubstantiated) Claim! Love, Steve
OldSkool
From LCM's rants regarding successful people - "The adversary always demands his pound of flesh!"
So.....if I am unsuccessful unbeliever and have fallen on hard times it's an attack of the adversary. If I am successful and fallen on hard times it's the devil exacting his pound of flesh that I promised in exchange for my success. If I am a believer fallen on hard times I am being persecuted for my stand on da werd / or I am being attacked for my lack of believing or fear.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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Abigail
Yup. The entire thing was designed to keep us in submission and keep the money rolling in. Now, I refuse to pay homage to any man. Submission did not come naturally to me back then and now I just don't do it at all.
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krys
If we leave da ministry.....we will become GREASESPOTS by midnight!
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OldSkool
I am happy to be a Grease Spot!
I never knew it could be so liberating.
Had I known I wouldn't have waited till midnight.
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JavaJane
This one might actually be true - maybe someone here can confirm.
Dungeons and Dragons was invented by a twi believer who had gone off the deep end and gotten himself possessed.
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What About It
Oh yeah, that's one of the best ever! I guess it's different for the MOG who spoke this phrase because he was forced out of the ministry so he's not a greasespot now?
How about cancer being caused by devil spirits?
Or if you get out of fellowship for just a moment the devil can whack ya in a split second?
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Steve Lortz
In the late-'60s, Dave Arneson hosted a miniatures gaming group in his parents' basement. They were primarily interested in Napoleonic miniatures campaigns, and they came up with some systems for figuring out what their generals were doing between battles. Dave Wesley took those systems and ran a spy-type skirmish game where the miniatures represented individual characters. After a weekend of watching too many old grade-B monster movies, Dave Arneson took Wesley's individual character rules and created a fantasy setting he called Blackmoor, where individual characters could fight fantasy monsters. Arneson demonstrated the game for Gary Gygax at Lake Geneva, WI, and just about the same time, took PFAL. Gygax decided to collaborate on a version to be published by Tactical Studies Rules, and thus D&D was released in the fall of 1974, and became a surprising success.
Arneson was not possessed. He was a genius at story-telling. He was one of the humblest and kindest people I have ever known. Arneson tithed tens of thousands of dollars a year to TWI from his income off of D&D, and TWI was happy to accept it. When Wierwille and other "leadership" came to the Twin Cities, Dave was always invited to the parties regular believers didn't get to go to. At Word in Business and Profession conferences, which he liked to attend, he was held up as an example of a successful believer, because of his income. Leadership waited till he was out of hearing to talk trash about D&D.
I personally think God inspired recreational role-playing to serve as a laboratory for exercising a person's moral imagination. I think Gygax dragged it down for commercial reasons.
I think there was more "possession" involved in the production of PFAL, and especially Athletes of the Spirit, than there was in the production OR the playing of D&D.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
The man donated thousands of dollars..."example of a successful believer"...Special treatment...
Doesn't kowtow and moves on with life. Thereby becomes possessed...
Gee. After all God had done for him. All those doors that had been opened for him. Who knows what was on offer at the special parties. Maybe that's why he left.
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waysider
And there are still people who don't think it was a money grabbing scam???
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Steve Lortz
They never offered anything more than booze or cigarettes (maybe a cigar or two) to Dave at the parties, but Dave didn't smoke, and he didn't drink because of diabetes. He wasn't one of those followers considered spurtully mature enuff (he was never Way Corps) to handle any "sin consciouness" more heavy duty than that. Dave would have left if he had known about the adultery. As it was, I think his branch coordinator pulled the branch out when Martindale required personal fealty. I wasn't up in Minnesota at that particular time. Dave had no regrets about his generosity, to TWI or anybody else. His marriage broke up after his wife took Momentus, and he didn't. Dave was too leery to be sucked back in by the time Victor Barnard did his thing in the Twin Cities.
Dave died of cancer last year. He was a staunch Christian and friend until the end.
Love,
Steve
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OldSkool
Steve, I am sorry for your loss. I am sickened to hear about this man, dragged through the mud without cause. Now I understand why they to THIS day speak out over D&D! YOu have any idea how many times I have heard it told that if you play D&D it will get you possessed? And come to find out it originated from the same old character assassination handed to so many of who gave our time, money, life, whatever to these jerks.
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JavaJane
Amazing! Thank you so much for this background!! And I agree, role-playing does allow people to exercise their moral imagination. I enjoyed playing D&D when I was younger, around the time my family got involved with twi. It didn't last long, but I enjoyed the game. When I went WOW, I was told the messed up version of this story. I have always wondered if it had any truth to it.
He sounds llike he was a wonderful person. Probably too "creative" for twi. Games like D&D really inspire people to use their imaginations, which was not generally encouraged in twi. I am sorry for your loss, Steve.
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chockfull
Awesome story, Steve.
I never heard any bad press about D&D, and enjoyed playing it growing up. A group of us in our church youth group in high school would play it in our church basement, sometimes all night! That always gave the church ladies something to talk about, but our pastor was cool with it.
That game was probably the predecessor to most of the modern role-based video games, including World of Warcraft, the most popular. Come to think of it WoW are the commonly used initials of that game. I'm sure TWI could get some mileage out of that!!!
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OldSkool
Time to get Colombo on the horn, Rosie! LAWSUIT!!!!!!
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chockfull
Yeah, really. You would think though that 'Colombo' eventually would do enough 'investigating' to come to the conclusion that his clients there are scum. But I'm sure that $250/hr or whatever his billable rate is alleviates that pretty quickly.
Your ABS at work!!!
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OldSkool
Yep, that is sure to make things all better.
On the other hand, how does one sleep at night knowing the history of abuse and all the details about how wide spread and destructive it was. Really, the man should have stepped back and let it all burn. Instead he steps in to salvage it. Oh well. Maybe what they say about lawyers is true.
And anymore, I would never put it past Rosie and the gang to pass on a good lawsuit. Litigious they have become.
At least as long as they are the plaintiff.
Defendant = no good
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mstar1
When I was in in the end of the 70's and most of the 80's there was always some story or another of somebody being raised from the dead, or being cured of cancer or AIDS someplace else from wherever I was.
I never met any of these people but there ws no shortage of it in the gossip line.
Maybe these are more 'urban myths' than claims.
I heard a story being passed around in the late 70's about a WOW who was contemplating leaving the field...He happened to be walking down some street past a phone booth(remember those?)in California someplace while he was deciding whether to leave or not when the phone in the booth rang...
For no particular reson he picked up the phone as he was walking past and Lo and Behold who is it but Wierwille on the phone calling by 'revelation' to implore him to stay on the field "For God"
Yea Surrre
In my experience there was always some new outlandish story or unsubstantiated claim somewhere.
The guy who saved a nuclear sub from sinking....
A guy who ran on a field during a high school fooball game and put a broken bone ( that ws sticking out of the guys shoulder! back in place, then the whole town took the class
the next week.
People who drove to the ROA with no gas in the tank, or fell asleep while driving for 8 hours while "guardian angels took the wheel"
At one point it seemed like it never ended.
It was such a chaos of imaginative and wishful thinking to gain acceptance that for awhile it was the norm where I was
I myself was able to hold back an entire hurricane and also mend bone with my xray vision
(joking) until I got better
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Broken Arrow
Big Far Unsubstantiated Claims? Where does one begin? Let's see, Barbara Streisand was seed. Michael Jackson was possessed. Every head of every denomination was seed, Dr. Wierwille had the original idea for fast food but the businessmen he shared the idea with didn't listen to him. Therefore, since the idea was now in the senses world, the Devil gave the idea to Ray Kroc and McDonald's was started. Stupid businessmen.
Muhammad Ali was seed (LCM). It was a devil spirit that ko'd Sonny Liston in the title fight. We know this because no one saw the punch that knocked him out. Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics was possessed.
If you lead someone to the new birth prior to them taking PFAL, they could die. That's because once they're saved their guardian angel leaves and if the person doesn't know how to renew their mind they're "sitting ducks" for the adverssary. The Rolling Stones were seed, I think the Beatles were seed also, but I'm not sure.
Finally, John Lennon was killed because the Devil was through with him (LCM).
That's just off the top of my head.
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chockfull
The Illuminati runs the government behind the scenes. We were in Viet Nam to protect Roman Catholic real estate interests. The whole topic of Israel and the anti-Semitic BS there - the diary of Anne Frank was a forgery, 'The Myth of the Six Million', etc.
Oh, and from the Forehead:
The Word is Over the World
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OldSkool
I heard this same fable from one of the old timers while rehearsing the bad old days for me, and lamenting that the love had faded in the current way ministry that this sort of thing didn't happen any longer.
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Broken Arrow
AIDS? Really? Wherever I was, it was a big "hush hush" if someone had AIDS. Why? (Here's another one) Homosexuality is the next worse thing to being born of the seed of the serpent. So, in my circle, if someone claimed to heal someone else from aids the next question would have been if they cast out the spirit on homosexuality. I'm not arguing, I'm just pointing another unsubstantiated lie.
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Broken Arrow
I think that one actually happened. It's not as outlandish as it may sound. It was a case where the sub temporarily lost it's "steering" and quick repairs were made after praying. Prayer was made and the sailor believes the prayer prevented a collision with another vessel. Do I know for a fact it was true? No, but the story, the way he told it, was believable. I'm sure it got more outlandish as the story was re-told.
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JavaJane
I heard the AIDs thing, too. In the story I heard the healing took place in Florida.
And how there were all these believers who were supposed to work at the World Trade Center on 9/11 who were all given revelation to call in sick that day so NO BELIEVERS were hurt on 9/11.
And... Prince took PFAL, but left afterwards because he was possessed.
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leafytwiglet
LOL at the Prince tale.
Back in my day it wa Barry Manilow that took the class etc.
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