I really do NOT get the problem you guys have with churches.
I don't have a problem with churches. I have a problem with someone insisting that we are supposed to goto churches. Since we are clear on the definition, that it's a building. Then people read that definition into the Bible, as if all these church buildings were scattered around the 1st century church times. I guess in essence they were but were called temples and synagogues. I respect your choice to goto church. But if you are someone who would like to place restrictions on what others do in their service to the lord and worship of God then that in itself is wrong.
Otherwise, I am finished with the argument and wish you all the best.
For some, going to church is a wonderful thing. It offers community, a place to worship, a place to study, a place to give. However, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that requires one to attend church.
I go to the synagogue when I am moved to do so. I am far more centered around my family, my immediate community and my friends. I am not particularly comfortable with joining a religious organization. Been there, done that. I have no desire to build my sense of community, my friendships, etc. upon little more than a common belief system. I want more common ground with my community. I want more diversity in my life. I want exposure to vastly differing opinions and beliefs.
I also do not want to feel contrained to a particular doctrine. I do not want to fear expressing a differing point of view regarding God, morals, ethics, rituals, etc.
That said, when I first left TWI, I attended a Vinyard Church for a time. I chose it specifically because I had already met the minister and he knew of TWI, what they were about, what they taught, etc. I was somewhat comfortable there, because I didn't have to explain my background, it was already understood. It was a very peaceful experience for me and I met some very kind people.
I don't have a problem with churches. I have a problem with someone insisting that we are supposed to goto churches. Since we are clear on the definition, that it's a building. Then people read that definition into the Bible, as if all these church buildings were scattered around the 1st century church times. I guess in essence they were but were called temples and synagogues. I respect your choice to goto church. But if you are someone who would like to place restrictions on what others do in their service to the lord and worship of God then that in itself is wrong.
Otherwise, I am finished with the argument and wish you all the best.
I didn't say they were just buildings....churches often meet in church buildings. Built and set aside for that purpose, just like the temple.
Where else do you all meet? Can someone tell me where these other churches are that meet together? Bodies of believers choosing to come together and commit to one another in love of Him?
The places people are talking about that don't restrict the gathering of saints for prayer, worship, and accountability....with an overseer as mentioned in Timothy....elders.....where are you all going to gather together and encourage and provoke one another?
Where do you all assemble. You can't assemble together with all Christians everywhere....and you must want to gather together and be with each other often. Christians love one another.....esteem each other? No? Desire fellowship around the Lord?
Where else do you all meet? Can someone tell me where these other churches are that meet together? Bodies of believers choosing to come together and commit to one another in love of Him?
Where do you all assemble. You can't assemble together with all Christians everywhere....and you must want to gather together and be with each other often. Christians love one another.....esteem each other? No? Desire fellowship around the Lord?
They meet where and when everyone decides to meet. You know, mutual decision goes a long ways. Part of being like-minded in unity, instead of being told when and where to meet. If you want to join, just ask. Or propose a time and place.
The places people are talking about that don't restrict the gathering of saints for prayer, worship, and accountability....with an overseer as mentioned in Timothy....elders.....where are you all going to gather together and encourage and provoke one another?
An overseer.. Can you define that for me? Cause I think your idea is almost similar to that which is in TWI. Are they the ones who decide for you what is shared in the meeting every week? Do they decide for the group what everyone ought to be singing? Maybe they make the decision when and where everyone in the group ought to go witnessing or fundraising? Do they decide how the spirit leads the meeting or do they allow the spirit to move in each individual? Do they hog the mike and air time, or do they allow equal time for everyone to share whatever is on their hearts that God has been working without fail and without needing approving ahead of time or needing a "special" time for such things? Is that someone who oversees what you think and do? And when it's not according to their belief, what do they do? Do they allow such differences without ANY prejudice? Do they think they know it all and anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong?
They meet where and when everyone decides to meet. You know, mutual decision goes a long ways. Part of being like-minded in unity, instead of being told when and where to meet. If you want to join, just ask. Or propose a time and place.
An overseer.. Can you define that for me? Cause I think your idea is almost similar to that which is in TWI. Are they the ones who decide for you what is shared in the meeting every week? Do they decide for the group what everyone ought to be singing? Maybe they make the decision when and where everyone in the group ought to go witnessing or fundraising? Do they decide how the spirit leads the meeting or do they allow the spirit to move in each individual? Do they hog the mike and air time, or do they allow equal time for everyone to share whatever is on their hearts that God has been working without fail and without needing approving ahead of time or needing a "special" time for such things? Is that someone who oversees what you think and do? And when it's not according to their belief, what do they do? Do they allow such differences without ANY prejudice? Do they think they know it all and anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong?
I was talking to someone about this today here.....the idea of an overseer. It may somewhat sound like TWI I guess.....but, when someone does it right....it is nothing of the kind. When someone Pastors another, with accountability to the Lord, with genuine love in their hearts, and with right understanding of boundaries and position. It is nothing like TWI. It is really a nice thing to have a Pastor to turn to when you need one. One that really cares about you, but appropriately.
The music? We can't all pick it. My friends love this weird country gospel junk....no way. Others like hymns....some like Contemporary. Usually, the people who play the music, pick what they play, and then we sing a few hymns. We usually get to them all and if one is really burning on your heart....you mention it and we sing it. Since my kid is in the praise band....I have a say. No one complains....we are thankful for the talent we have and we enjoy it. We sing and praise with them They are a praise band.
We don't really go witnessing. We are a witness to our community by how we reach out, offer help, and participate. Fund raising is usually planned by those raising funds for something. My kid is involved in a car wash every week, but they plan it themselves.....usually for missions trips. They put on dinners themselves and we all go and eat and have fun. Sometimes they have a breakfast....but, it is the people who need the money, who plan and raise it.
My kid brought a well known Christian author to town....all the churches got together and chipped in....we all loved it. They have a local Christian radio station run from a church basement.....if you have an idea for a show....you write up a proposal and will probably be on air the next week.
Sunday Service is pretty decently and in order. On Sundays one of the trained Pastors or elders share the message. Not everyone gets up to teach, but then again, not everyone is a teacher. On Wednesdays.....anyone who wants to share can share....we all wait until everyone who likes....has a chance to speak. We have a diverse congregation, but we do have a statement of beliefs. You don't have to believe them to go to our church, but all in all....that is why people go to that and other churches....that is what they believe.
Trust and Obey, my Pastor sees me coming a mile away and smiles....because he knows...I am going to ask some tough questions. He loves it. On occasion....I have been right. He is a humble and meek man. Not anything like the people we ran into in TWI. I have met a few icky pastors, but not many. When I meet one who is remotely like a typical TWIer...I run to the exit.
Church is a nice place that we all choose to go....because as Christians we desire and need each other....we don't have to do it alone.
Yes, no problem. On the Death Star, they were the ones that wore the army-like looking outfits, would order Storm Troopers around all the time, and answered "It will be done, Lord Vader".
geisha779 - Why can't you just go be happy doing what you are doing w/o littering up the place with the merits of what you are into?
Oh, it wasn't a sincere question? Sounded like one to me. Silly me....I must have answered sarcasm. Please continue littering up the place yourself. The last and only time I started a thread was months ago. Carry on.Church/ Christians....crazy thought on my part.
Yes, no problem. On the Death Star, they were the ones that wore the army-like looking outfits, would order Storm Troopers around all the time, and answered "It will be done, Lord Vader".
Ahhhhhhhhh,... Nods head in Understanding...
Sort of like Twig Coordinators,.... Deacons in some churches, lay clergy in others,... maybe the leader of the choir, The church bus driver.... OR, The assistant to the Assistant to the Assistant of ____________ . We need our middlemen to insulate our leaders, and to keep the pesky free-range followers at bay. Why do we put up WITH THEM!!? WHY???
Because Virginia, they are the door to a full collection plate for us. --- Takes deep gas-masky breath and smiles unseen behind the veil of my mask.... "I find your lack of faith disturbing." ... "Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them."
I was talking to someone about this today here.....the idea of an overseer. It may somewhat sound like TWI I guess.....but, when someone does it right....it is nothing of the kind. When someone Pastors another, with accountability to the Lord, with genuine love in their hearts, and with right understanding of boundaries and position. It is nothing like TWI. It is really a nice thing to have a Pastor to turn to when you need one. One that really cares about you, but appropriately.
The music? We can't all pick it. My friends love this weird country gospel junk....no way. Others like hymns....some like Contemporary. Usually, the people who play the music, pick what they play, and then we sing a few hymns. We usually get to them all and if one is really burning on your heart....you mention it and we sing it. Since my kid is in the praise band....I have a say. No one complains....we are thankful for the talent we have and we enjoy it. We sing and praise with them They are a praise band.
We don't really go witnessing. We are a witness to our community by how we reach out, offer help, and participate. Fund raising is usually planned by those raising funds for something. My kid is involved in a car wash every week, but they plan it themselves.....usually for missions trips. They put on dinners themselves and we all go and eat and have fun. Sometimes they have a breakfast....but, it is the people who need the money, who plan and raise it.
My kid brought a well known Christian author to town....all the churches got together and chipped in....we all loved it. They have a local Christian radio station run from a church basement.....if you have an idea for a show....you write up a proposal and will probably be on air the next week.
Sunday Service is pretty decently and in order. On Sundays one of the trained Pastors or elders share the message. Not everyone gets up to teach, but then again, not everyone is a teacher. On Wednesdays.....anyone who wants to share can share....we all wait until everyone who likes....has a chance to speak. We have a diverse congregation, but we do have a statement of beliefs. You don't have to believe them to go to our church, but all in all....that is why people go to that and other churches....that is what they believe.
Trust and Obey, my Pastor sees me coming a mile away and smiles....because he knows...I am going to ask some tough questions. He loves it. On occasion....I have been right. He is a humble and meek man. Not anything like the people we ran into in TWI. I have met a few icky pastors, but not many. When I meet one who is remotely like a typical TWIer...I run to the exit.
Church is a nice place that we all choose to go....because as Christians we desire and need each other....we don't have to do it alone.
Geisha,
I'm not going to get on you for sharing your Christian experience. It's a genuine experience. I am genuinely happy for you that you have found a genuine small group of Christians that you can rebuild your life with and relationship with Christ with post TWI. It sounds to me like your church has been a vital step to you in your recovery, and you are a proponent of that type of relationship to others because it's helped you. Those are good things.
Yes, I litter up the About the Way section with topics....you guessed it, you rocket scientist you......here comes......About the Way. Even though this thread ties in somewhat. It's now pretty much an extension of the Jim Doop fiasco. Anything else you have to say, just consider it you having the last word. I am done, again. Except I mean it now...
I really mean this. I respect you and your right to "church" wherever and with whomever you wish. I also wish you all the best. God Bless.
You guys didn't squabble like this when you were "in", didja? (jk)
For what it's worth, my ewf has been shopping "churches" since she left a year ago and can't seem to find anything she's comfortable with. Of course, that's no surprise.
Which raises a question in my mind: Does recovery from the cultish aspects of Way theology imply, or necessitate, a "recovery" from the doctrine? Wouldn't it...shouldn't it?
Just wondering.
There are still thousands of believers who still ascribe fully to Way theology warmed-over.
Church is a nice place that we all choose to go....because as Christians we desire and need each other....we don't have to do it alone.
Geisha, please don't think I'm attacking your church group, or your pastor. I am just trying to get you to understand that there are more ways than just YOUR way.. Or your churches way, or your pastors way.. Christ body is diverse. And understanding how diverse is a wonderful thing. We are not all made to do the same thing. Work the same. Need the same thing. We are different, and God has blessed the body with those differences all to help one another. So I have nothing against you and your pastor and they way you meet as long as is godly.
the idea of an overseer. It may somewhat sound like TWI I guess.....but, when someone does it right....it is nothing of the kind. When someone Pastors another, with accountability to the Lord, with genuine love in their hearts, and with right understanding of boundaries and position. It is nothing like TWI. It is really a nice thing to have a Pastor to turn to when you need one. One that really cares about you, but appropriately.
What exactly is "doing it right"? How does a pastor "do it right"? Maybe you'd like to define what a pastor does that doesn't go against scripture? If there is anything concerning position, then they have crossed God's boundary. Cause Christ is the only head of the body. Not a pastor. He is not your covering. He is not your head. He is not anything but a help, a guide, a servant, one in whoms life shows how to live, but he is not your leader. If he is leading you and you are following him, he has crossed that boundary. We are to follow no one but Christ. When Paul said to follow me as I follow Christ, it is not the same word usually translated follow. It is the word for imitate. We do not follow man! Any man. Not a pastor, not a teacher, no one but Christ. We may imitate those who walk in the light. The lead by example. But they are not to be your leader. That is position. And Christ never gave anyone a position above another.
Mat 23 "They[Overseers] love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called "Teacher" by men. But do not be called "Teacher"; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for one is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant."
The music? We can't all pick it. My friends love this weird country gospel junk....no way. Others like hymns....some like Contemporary.
I'm sure the bigger the group, you can't. But then when God's spirit works in you a song to sing that moment, and you can't sing it, share it with the group, there's a problem. But the diversity in body is great. Let them all sing, let them all bring a song. That is what the scriptures say..
1 Corinthians 14 "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification."
This is not like taught in TWI as the incorrect. This is the correct. That is what it starts with. WHAT IS IT THEN BRETHREN? WHAT IS THE RIGHT WAY GUYS? HOW SHALL WE DO IT NOW, FOLKS? And it lays it out. When you assemble, what to do.. Each one. Everyone. Share, give, let the spirit move. Only as each do, let it be done unto edification. But don't quench the spirit folks!
Sunday Service is pretty decently and in order. On Sundays one of the trained Pastors or elders share the message. Not everyone gets up to teach, but then again, not everyone is a teacher. On Wednesdays.....anyone who wants to share can share....we all wait until everyone who likes....has a chance to speak.
So lets say while this "trained" pastor in teaching away this message which may have no relevance to the majority of people there but most listen anyways being bored to death. But we'll ignore that for the time being. But let's say he's teaching and someone has a question? Maybe God worked in someone's heart something to share.. Could he ask the question, could he stand up and share the mike? What does the scripture say?
"But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;"
Prophecy, a message God has given to someone sitting.. So let the first sit and be quiet, so what God shared can be shared.. Do you allow this, or does he go on sharing anyways, and anyone is admonished to wait till the everything is over or another day? The point of gathering is so everyone can get their needs met. Yet if you don't allow questions during the meeting, or quench the spirit in others while it is going out, and instead make them wait, you in effect have told God to hold off until we let you work..
I'm just saying.. Allowing God to work in the diversity in the group instead of placing the burden of the congregation on the "pastor" is unbiblical. Why should this one guy or group have the weight of God having to work in Him mainly on what is taught, on what is sung. On what is done. We are all brothers/sisters. And why do men/woman love to place other men over them! WHY! Why do they do like in the Old Testament and ask for a KIng?! Why! Why can they not allow God to work as he desired..
BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT ®A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM (U)ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
You guys didn't squabble like this when you were "in", didja? (jk)
For what it's worth, my ewf has been shopping "churches" since she left a year ago and can't seem to find anything she's comfortable with. Of course, that's no surprise.
Which raises a question in my mind: Does recovery from the cultish aspects of Way theology imply, or necessitate, a "recovery" from the doctrine? Wouldn't it...shouldn't it?
Just wondering.
There are still thousands of believers who still ascribe fully to Way theology warmed-over.
Not everything TWI taught was wrong or bad. In fact, I would say they had a lot of principals for living a good and decent life right. Where they really, really blew it was in how they applied those principals, in how rigid they became. For instance, take the law of believing. The basic concept isn't bad. There is nothing wrong with picturing yourself accomplishing something and then taking action to meet that goal. However, there is something very wrong with condemning someone for no "believing big enough" to get healed without the help of a doctor.
Speaking in tongues. Well, basically harmless as long as it isn't interfering with your ability to function in life. Personally, I no longer pratice it and I am not convinvced it is genuine, but still . . . harmless if it isn't hurting anything or anyone.
So, some find their way to new churches. Some become agnostic, some athiest. Some re-research what they were taught, keep some things and toss others.
For the rest of you ~ All ye who read this. I see people I care about beginning to be angry. So my response is humor. No, I am not laughing at any of you. I remember when one of the disciples came to Jesus (well, lol, I remember reading John said it) and said: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Oh Hooooo So they're not a part of your slice of Christianity. This verse was a real lesson to me at the time.
...For instance, take the law of believing. The basic concept isn't bad.
Agreed.
Speaking in tongues...Well, basically harmless as long as it isn't interfering with your ability to function in life.
True, and I'm sure it is of value to many people. But my ewf's belief is that SIT is an essential spiritual manifestation -- a critical indicator -- of acceptance of Jesus as savior, i.e, you know that you're "born again" when you SIT.
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geisha779
Oh, it wasn't a sincere question? Sounded like one to me. Silly me....I must have answered sarcasm. Please continue littering up the place yourself. The last and only time I started a thread was month
chockfull
Geisha, I'm not going to get on you for sharing your Christian experience. It's a genuine experience. I am genuinely happy for you that you have found a genuine small group of Christians that you c
OldSkool
Yes, I litter up the About the Way section with topics....you guessed it, you rocket scientist you......here comes......About the Way. Even though this thread ties in somewhat. It's now pretty much an
OldSkool
I don't have a problem with churches. I have a problem with someone insisting that we are supposed to goto churches. Since we are clear on the definition, that it's a building. Then people read that definition into the Bible, as if all these church buildings were scattered around the 1st century church times. I guess in essence they were but were called temples and synagogues. I respect your choice to goto church. But if you are someone who would like to place restrictions on what others do in their service to the lord and worship of God then that in itself is wrong.
Otherwise, I am finished with the argument and wish you all the best.
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Abigail
For some, going to church is a wonderful thing. It offers community, a place to worship, a place to study, a place to give. However, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that requires one to attend church.
I go to the synagogue when I am moved to do so. I am far more centered around my family, my immediate community and my friends. I am not particularly comfortable with joining a religious organization. Been there, done that. I have no desire to build my sense of community, my friendships, etc. upon little more than a common belief system. I want more common ground with my community. I want more diversity in my life. I want exposure to vastly differing opinions and beliefs.
I also do not want to feel contrained to a particular doctrine. I do not want to fear expressing a differing point of view regarding God, morals, ethics, rituals, etc.
That said, when I first left TWI, I attended a Vinyard Church for a time. I chose it specifically because I had already met the minister and he knew of TWI, what they were about, what they taught, etc. I was somewhat comfortable there, because I didn't have to explain my background, it was already understood. It was a very peaceful experience for me and I met some very kind people.
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geisha779
I didn't say they were just buildings....churches often meet in church buildings. Built and set aside for that purpose, just like the temple.
Where else do you all meet? Can someone tell me where these other churches are that meet together? Bodies of believers choosing to come together and commit to one another in love of Him?
The places people are talking about that don't restrict the gathering of saints for prayer, worship, and accountability....with an overseer as mentioned in Timothy....elders.....where are you all going to gather together and encourage and provoke one another?
Where do you all assemble. You can't assemble together with all Christians everywhere....and you must want to gather together and be with each other often. Christians love one another.....esteem each other? No? Desire fellowship around the Lord?
What is the address, I will pop in... :)
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TrustAndObey
They meet where and when everyone decides to meet. You know, mutual decision goes a long ways. Part of being like-minded in unity, instead of being told when and where to meet. If you want to join, just ask. Or propose a time and place.
An overseer.. Can you define that for me? Cause I think your idea is almost similar to that which is in TWI. Are they the ones who decide for you what is shared in the meeting every week? Do they decide for the group what everyone ought to be singing? Maybe they make the decision when and where everyone in the group ought to go witnessing or fundraising? Do they decide how the spirit leads the meeting or do they allow the spirit to move in each individual? Do they hog the mike and air time, or do they allow equal time for everyone to share whatever is on their hearts that God has been working without fail and without needing approving ahead of time or needing a "special" time for such things? Is that someone who oversees what you think and do? And when it's not according to their belief, what do they do? Do they allow such differences without ANY prejudice? Do they think they know it all and anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong?
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Gen-2
Rigid structure meets Free Association - should be exciting (gets Popcorn)
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Steve Lortz
Don't forget... plenty of butter!
Speaking of free association, sometimes I tell people I'm a Free-Range Baptist when they get a little too insistent on denominational "cover."
Love,
Steve
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OldSkool
Oh, I'm done. Maybe some others want to take it further but not me. I've got better things to do with my freedom than debate how to give it up again.
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chockfull
Tastes just like Free-Range Chicken
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OldSkool
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geisha779
I was talking to someone about this today here.....the idea of an overseer. It may somewhat sound like TWI I guess.....but, when someone does it right....it is nothing of the kind. When someone Pastors another, with accountability to the Lord, with genuine love in their hearts, and with right understanding of boundaries and position. It is nothing like TWI. It is really a nice thing to have a Pastor to turn to when you need one. One that really cares about you, but appropriately.
The music? We can't all pick it. My friends love this weird country gospel junk....no way. Others like hymns....some like Contemporary. Usually, the people who play the music, pick what they play, and then we sing a few hymns. We usually get to them all and if one is really burning on your heart....you mention it and we sing it. Since my kid is in the praise band....I have a say. No one complains....we are thankful for the talent we have and we enjoy it. We sing and praise with them They are a praise band.
We don't really go witnessing. We are a witness to our community by how we reach out, offer help, and participate. Fund raising is usually planned by those raising funds for something. My kid is involved in a car wash every week, but they plan it themselves.....usually for missions trips. They put on dinners themselves and we all go and eat and have fun. Sometimes they have a breakfast....but, it is the people who need the money, who plan and raise it.
My kid brought a well known Christian author to town....all the churches got together and chipped in....we all loved it. They have a local Christian radio station run from a church basement.....if you have an idea for a show....you write up a proposal and will probably be on air the next week.
Sunday Service is pretty decently and in order. On Sundays one of the trained Pastors or elders share the message. Not everyone gets up to teach, but then again, not everyone is a teacher. On Wednesdays.....anyone who wants to share can share....we all wait until everyone who likes....has a chance to speak. We have a diverse congregation, but we do have a statement of beliefs. You don't have to believe them to go to our church, but all in all....that is why people go to that and other churches....that is what they believe.
Trust and Obey, my Pastor sees me coming a mile away and smiles....because he knows...I am going to ask some tough questions. He loves it. On occasion....I have been right. He is a humble and meek man. Not anything like the people we ran into in TWI. I have met a few icky pastors, but not many. When I meet one who is remotely like a typical TWIer...I run to the exit.
Church is a nice place that we all choose to go....because as Christians we desire and need each other....we don't have to do it alone.
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chockfull
Yes, no problem. On the Death Star, they were the ones that wore the army-like looking outfits, would order Storm Troopers around all the time, and answered "It will be done, Lord Vader".
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OldSkool
geisha779 - Why can't you just go be happy doing what you are doing w/o littering up the place with the merits of what you are into?
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geisha779
Oh, it wasn't a sincere question? Sounded like one to me. Silly me....I must have answered sarcasm. Please continue littering up the place yourself. The last and only time I started a thread was months ago. Carry on.Church/ Christians....crazy thought on my part.
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Gen-2
Ahhhhhhhhh,... Nods head in Understanding...
Sort of like Twig Coordinators,.... Deacons in some churches, lay clergy in others,... maybe the leader of the choir, The church bus driver.... OR, The assistant to the Assistant to the Assistant of ____________ . We need our middlemen to insulate our leaders, and to keep the pesky free-range followers at bay. Why do we put up WITH THEM!!? WHY???
Because Virginia, they are the door to a full collection plate for us. --- Takes deep gas-masky breath and smiles unseen behind the veil of my mask.... "I find your lack of faith disturbing." ... "Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them."
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Bolshevik
money? . . . food? . . . water? . . .air?
. . . A Jedi need not these things . . .
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chockfull
Geisha,
I'm not going to get on you for sharing your Christian experience. It's a genuine experience. I am genuinely happy for you that you have found a genuine small group of Christians that you can rebuild your life with and relationship with Christ with post TWI. It sounds to me like your church has been a vital step to you in your recovery, and you are a proponent of that type of relationship to others because it's helped you. Those are good things.
-CF
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OldSkool
Yes, I litter up the About the Way section with topics....you guessed it, you rocket scientist you......here comes......About the Way. Even though this thread ties in somewhat. It's now pretty much an extension of the Jim Doop fiasco. Anything else you have to say, just consider it you having the last word. I am done, again. Except I mean it now...
I really mean this. I respect you and your right to "church" wherever and with whomever you wish. I also wish you all the best. God Bless.
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waysider
Now remember, you can't listen to this video by yourself. It just wouldn't be a very church-like thing to do.
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soul searcher
You guys didn't squabble like this when you were "in", didja? (jk)
For what it's worth, my ewf has been shopping "churches" since she left a year ago and can't seem to find anything she's comfortable with. Of course, that's no surprise.
Which raises a question in my mind: Does recovery from the cultish aspects of Way theology imply, or necessitate, a "recovery" from the doctrine? Wouldn't it...shouldn't it?
Just wondering.
There are still thousands of believers who still ascribe fully to Way theology warmed-over.
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TrustAndObey
Geisha, please don't think I'm attacking your church group, or your pastor. I am just trying to get you to understand that there are more ways than just YOUR way.. Or your churches way, or your pastors way.. Christ body is diverse. And understanding how diverse is a wonderful thing. We are not all made to do the same thing. Work the same. Need the same thing. We are different, and God has blessed the body with those differences all to help one another. So I have nothing against you and your pastor and they way you meet as long as is godly.
What exactly is "doing it right"? How does a pastor "do it right"? Maybe you'd like to define what a pastor does that doesn't go against scripture? If there is anything concerning position, then they have crossed God's boundary. Cause Christ is the only head of the body. Not a pastor. He is not your covering. He is not your head. He is not anything but a help, a guide, a servant, one in whoms life shows how to live, but he is not your leader. If he is leading you and you are following him, he has crossed that boundary. We are to follow no one but Christ. When Paul said to follow me as I follow Christ, it is not the same word usually translated follow. It is the word for imitate. We do not follow man! Any man. Not a pastor, not a teacher, no one but Christ. We may imitate those who walk in the light. The lead by example. But they are not to be your leader. That is position. And Christ never gave anyone a position above another.
Mat 23 "They[Overseers] love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called "Teacher" by men. But do not be called "Teacher"; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for one is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant."
I'm sure the bigger the group, you can't. But then when God's spirit works in you a song to sing that moment, and you can't sing it, share it with the group, there's a problem. But the diversity in body is great. Let them all sing, let them all bring a song. That is what the scriptures say..
1 Corinthians 14 "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification."
This is not like taught in TWI as the incorrect. This is the correct. That is what it starts with. WHAT IS IT THEN BRETHREN? WHAT IS THE RIGHT WAY GUYS? HOW SHALL WE DO IT NOW, FOLKS? And it lays it out. When you assemble, what to do.. Each one. Everyone. Share, give, let the spirit move. Only as each do, let it be done unto edification. But don't quench the spirit folks!
So lets say while this "trained" pastor in teaching away this message which may have no relevance to the majority of people there but most listen anyways being bored to death. But we'll ignore that for the time being. But let's say he's teaching and someone has a question? Maybe God worked in someone's heart something to share.. Could he ask the question, could he stand up and share the mike? What does the scripture say?
"But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;"
Prophecy, a message God has given to someone sitting.. So let the first sit and be quiet, so what God shared can be shared.. Do you allow this, or does he go on sharing anyways, and anyone is admonished to wait till the everything is over or another day? The point of gathering is so everyone can get their needs met. Yet if you don't allow questions during the meeting, or quench the spirit in others while it is going out, and instead make them wait, you in effect have told God to hold off until we let you work..
I'm just saying.. Allowing God to work in the diversity in the group instead of placing the burden of the congregation on the "pastor" is unbiblical. Why should this one guy or group have the weight of God having to work in Him mainly on what is taught, on what is sung. On what is done. We are all brothers/sisters. And why do men/woman love to place other men over them! WHY! Why do they do like in the Old Testament and ask for a KIng?! Why! Why can they not allow God to work as he desired..
BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT ®A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM (U)ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.
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Abigail
Not everything TWI taught was wrong or bad. In fact, I would say they had a lot of principals for living a good and decent life right. Where they really, really blew it was in how they applied those principals, in how rigid they became. For instance, take the law of believing. The basic concept isn't bad. There is nothing wrong with picturing yourself accomplishing something and then taking action to meet that goal. However, there is something very wrong with condemning someone for no "believing big enough" to get healed without the help of a doctor.
Speaking in tongues. Well, basically harmless as long as it isn't interfering with your ability to function in life. Personally, I no longer pratice it and I am not convinvced it is genuine, but still . . . harmless if it isn't hurting anything or anyone.
So, some find their way to new churches. Some become agnostic, some athiest. Some re-research what they were taught, keep some things and toss others.
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Abigail
Soul Searcher,
There is no one right way. Everyone has to find their own way.
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Gen-2
For the rest of you ~ All ye who read this. I see people I care about beginning to be angry. So my response is humor. No, I am not laughing at any of you. I remember when one of the disciples came to Jesus (well, lol, I remember reading John said it) and said: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Oh Hooooo So they're not a part of your slice of Christianity. This verse was a real lesson to me at the time.
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soul searcher
Agreed.
True, and I'm sure it is of value to many people. But my ewf's belief is that SIT is an essential spiritual manifestation -- a critical indicator -- of acceptance of Jesus as savior, i.e, you know that you're "born again" when you SIT.
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