My views are that mainstream Christianity in general and churches in particular are a useful resource in cult recovery in two main ways:
1) To see the error in TWI's 'household' mentality - there are many more great Christians out there that are ignored through an elitist 'household' teaching
2) To build new positive experiences interacting with other Christians helps people to put in perspective relationships in TWI that are no longer existent due to shunning.
They are helpful in addition to other resources, such as books like 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse', which describes a couple of individuals efforts at establishing a community church and what they learned about how people use scriptures to control and abuse others.
I do not hold the view that they are a mandatory step - I see too much evidence to the contrary on this forum. Many people around here are building great positive things in their lives that have nothing to do with churches. Rebuilding family relationships, taking up hobbies, enjoying social circles, having a productive career, education - all of these things are also vital and helpful steps in recovery.
In my view also - one thing to be cautious of with churches. Jumping from one 'cult member' mentality where you are being abused to another in a mainstream church is definitely not a good direction to go. There is spiritual abuse in many, many places under many guises. The authors of the book describe it in their local community church. To jump from one situation to another without changing yourself in my view is like being a victim in a domestic violence situation and running right to another abusive partner. People need to break the endless cycle of that behavior in addition to just leaving the organization.
Going to a regular church helped me with the us vs them mentality, but by all means I don't think it's the only way to get past the whole TWI thing.
FWIW I get the same vibe about the whole church is the answer thing as I used to get from people during my TWI days when I wasn't going to enough evenings or making TWI enough of a priority (at least to their comfort level). My feeling is that if what you are doing works for you, then who am I to tell you to do things differently?
The way I see it, after some serious thought, is churches can be towers of babel - the works of men's hands to reach God or the can simply be a place to meet in a group and fellowship. To me the problem comes in when people say "THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO!!!! YOU MUST COME HERE OR YOU ARE WRONG!!!" That's just wrong. Each Christian in the body of Christ is to hold the head, who is Christ. Follow the Lord's lead, do his work. If that work involves making an organization then that organization is known by it's fruits. Does it magnify God, does it magnify Christ? Or does it just magnify the denomination or some other man and demand loyalty and obedience? By their fruit we are supposed to know them. God is not in a church of it's own and neither is Christ. Christ is wherever two or three gather in his name. In a church or down by the river matters not.
As a non-Christian, obviously I don't believe that churches are a "mandatory step", however I think that for some people they are crucial for getting through the post-cult time and getting settled in a Christian life.
As far as living a Christian life, I think that one would be hard pressed to identify me as a non-Christian just by observing my actions, my beliefs differ, but if you followed me and my two Christian brothers around for a year with a camera I doubt you could easily say which of us was the pagan.
But as far as church attendance goes, many people benefit greatly from the structure, the guidance, the fellowship, and that makes me thankful that they're out there.
I don`t think there is a one size fits all...you must go to church you must subscribe to an offshoot you must be with like minded people therapy no therapy..etc.
For 5 yrs post twi I was in the same stagnant mindset...my arrogance in my knowledge of scripture..my confiidence that I had the truth and every one else was stupid...prevented any healing or moving on...I was hopeless doomed to operating principles that didn`t work no matter how scrupulously applied, and inevitably blaming myself for the lack of results.
In the avatar movie there is a line that to me describes our mindset to a t... *It is hard to fill a cup that is already full*
Meaning if we think we know it all, think that our knowledge makes us spiritual, enlightened, our beliefs the only possible conclusion...what could thos idiots in the church teach ME?? We limit ourselves ...there isn`t room to learn from people with whom God has guided on a different path, different lessons learned ...different long suits mastered.
I have learned a great deal from our little country church. Love, support, encouragement, recognizing and valuing each individual and the contributions that the unique insight developed through their own spiritual journey.
Some churches we have attended have been better for us than others...no doubt they suit the people that attend just fine, they just weren`t for us where we were at at the time....a couple were even nearly as poisonous and destructive as twi...
I have met some outstanding spiritual individuals inside and outside the church. Meeting wonderful spirit filled christians in my experience doesn`t seem to be limited to a particular denomination, and they seem to be able to b able to lend perspective and guidance that is new and refreshing after our twi experience.
What I am trying to say is that I have learned not to discredit an individual or the value of what they might have to impart because of the label they wear.
Divisiveness is a twi trait that will keep us forever isolated if we let it :(
We're supposed to make Jesus Lord.
Amen I wish I had said it, that covers it nicely :)
The way I see it, after some serious thought, is churches can be towers of babel - the works of men's hands to reach God or the can simply be a place to meet in a group and fellowship. To me the problem comes in when people say "THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO!!!! YOU MUST COME HERE OR YOU ARE WRONG!!!" That's just wrong. Each Christian in the body of Christ is to hold the head, who is Christ. Follow the Lord's lead, do his work. If that work involves making an organization then that organization is known by it's fruits. Does it magnify God, does it magnify Christ? Or does it just magnify the denomination or some other man and demand loyalty and obedience? By their fruit we are supposed to know them. God is not in a church of it's own and neither is Christ. Christ is wherever two or three gather in his name. In a church or down by the river matters not.
There isn't a great deal of persecution here Oldskool, but, I wonder how many who don't feel they need a church.....would fall on there face and thank God for one......if the right to assemble was gone and we had no where, but a church home to turn to to flee persecution. Are we able to withstand that on our own? What makes us think we can withstand all the other barrages and voices that call out to us.....without some structure and guidance?
That is why many in countries where there is severe persecution pray so for us. We have it so easy.....and we take what we have for granted. It is tough enough to get ones own family to stick out the tough times. But, a church family, in the face of opposition or out is bound together in love of Him.
It is interesting to me that you mention that verse about gathering in His name. Even with the quickest glance of context it is evident that those verses are speaking of forgiveness and discipline within the church(home bible study) It references how leaders and elders should discipline and restore those who have erred. Structure. From the Lord Himself.
Jesus is also acknowledging the Mosaic law of two or more regarding how many witness you need to bring a charge. Chapter 18 starts off with instructions about humility 1-6 punishment of offenders 7-11, 5-9 speaks about the offended brother. The rest of the chapter speaks about forgiveness. How many times should I forgive my brother?
Interestingly enough........in the MIDDLE of this chapter is the parable of the Lost Sheep. 12-14 How do you think this fits in? It is the Lord who finds us and carries us back to .....what? The structure and safety of the flock with Him as the head. We are not meant to wander alone.
If the point of that verse is how many people are needed for Him to be there....please explain to me about Job, Jeremiah in the dung pit, Jonah.
Paul saying....all have forsaken but....John on the Isle of Patmos.....Joseph in a pit, dungeon, or jail.....
I don't believe those verses are encouragement to not find a church, but they are encouragement TO find one.
What I want to know is......who is to say, when two or more gather.....that Christ is magnified?
I think it all just depends on the individual... For me, it probably would have been better for me to stay out of churches completely for a year or two after leaving twi just so that my brain could go back to normal without any reminders of twi (or religion).
I currently (sorta) attend a Catholic church (I say sorta because I have a toddler who does not possess an inside voice at the moment, and who can't seem to sit still for more than 20 minutes at a time... this means that I go to church on the big days - Christmas, Easter, etc, and we had her baptized in the church, which was really beautiful, but I digress...) I like the church because it is so very different from twi. It's so large that I can blend into the background with everyone else - I don't get marked out as a non-partipating member who needs to be brought back into the fold, it teaches very simple and direct teachings, they are involved with the community, and I am fascinated with the doctrine. The church is also very tranquil. I am not a full member of the Catholic faith, and I do not know if I really want to be - maybe some day, but for now I am content to sit and observe and be blessed by what I see. That is the state I am in, and it gives me what I need.
My wounds are too fresh to be a gung-ho member of anything - even my La Leche League meetings reminded me of being in twi so much that attended it twice and then never came back. I'm a buit gun shy.
My husband rushed to another church as soon as he got out of twi... it was not a good experience. I posted about it in an earlier thread:
Funny thing is, now that I am out I almost have radar for religious quackery. I get around people and they just feel like twi. It's happened a couple of times - first time when my husband decided he wanted to go to church with a friend of his - nicest kid you could ever meet. My husband came back from church all pumped from the music they played. I was suspicious. I had met the kid and he had that sicky-sweet feel to him. But I thought I was being judgemental. I decided to go to the church. I went. It was ok... Pastor gave me the heebie-jeebies. I chalked it up to having a residual fear of leadership from twi. Second service I attended, the Pastor starts saying he has revelation that there are people that need to be ministered to becuase of finances... Come on down!! Slays them in the spirit. Then while they are passed out on the floor he starts calling up those who have a spirit of infirmity! Then depression! Then suicide! People are coming down and screaming, tearing at their clothes, then passing out cold in front of the church. Then he stares at me and my husband and says "Some of us here haven't comitted their lives to God! Come down and let me minister the spirit to you!". I was like, "Hell freaking no!" and almost got up and left. Who the heck was this guy to judge us, who had given EVERYTHING we had to try and serve God? Obviously he wasn't getting revelation, because God knew what we had been through. The Pastor and his wife tried to corner us after the service. I brushed past and never looked back. It was so disturbing to me that these people who had genuine problems had been encouraged to air them in front of the entire congregation - and that some of these issues were SEVERE mental disorders that needed to be treated by a mental health professional, regardless if a spirit was involved or not.
Ok, so that experience was not good, and now he won't go to church unless me, my mother in law, and my father in law drag him there (the church I attend is the one he attended as a child.)
I think it just depends on the person. For a long time I couldn't go into a church or hear any teachings even on TV or the radio without one of two reactions: if the teaching touched me, I would cry uncontrollably because it was right and it hurt that I thought everyone outside of twi was evil for so long - or - if it hurt me to hear it, I would get angry and be mad for days at myself for hating the teaching.... too much condemnation for me on both counts.
For a few years, I would have been better to just shut it all down and spend time within myself to allow myself to heal enough to be able to receive what others thought.
In the parable of the wheat and the tares, I believe Jesus indicated that the weeds will be allowed to live side by side with the wheat until the time of the harvest. I think there are good, honest, god-fearing people in every denomination, church and cult. I think there are also wolves in sheeps' clothing in every denomination, church and cult.
When I was involved with the Way International, I taught what the "ministry" taught because I thought it was right. I didn't pay attention to what other churches taught, because I could see obvious errors in some of what they taught.
After the Lord took His hand off from before my eyes, I could see that some of what I taught in the Way International was also error. I thought, "Yeah, those particular things were errors, but that doesn't change the truth of the things I taught that were right!"
Then He pointed out to me that just because other denominations, churches and cults teach some error, that doesn't mean that there is NO truth for me to learn from them.
Since then I've come to regard learning about God, Jesus and the Bible in terms of The Blind Men and the Elephant. Instead of becoming adamant that my understanding is the only true one, and people holding any other understanding just can't be Christians, I've learned to seek for those parts of their understanding that can extend my own understanding into a greater appreciation of God's integrity.
I taught Humane Letters for five years in a small interdenominational Christian classical academy. It was founded by a bunch of home-schoolers who decided they could be more effective working as a group. It was the closest thing I've experienced to a free and open church. We had a set of primary doctrines upon which we all agreed. These were EXTREMELY simple and pretty much paralled the apostles' creed. All other doctrines were considered secondary, and instruction in those was reserved to the students' parents and religious leaders. We could teach about the secondary doctrines, but we couldn't promote one of them over against another interpretation.
When my brother's 7th-graders brought up the topic of the Trinity in his class, he had each of his students write a brief report on what their parents and church teachers had to say about the subject. He then had each of the students read his or her paper in class. The students were exposed to a lot of different perspectives on the subject, but in a non-argumentative, non-proselytising way.
As faculty members, we learned to discuss our differences in a respectful, probative, exploratory way. It was very informative and resulted in Christian solidarity, in spite of our differences.
The Board hired a new Headmaster whose interpetaion of "interdenominational" included evangelical protestants only. The Board fired two of our best and most respected teachers because they were American Orthodox. The whole faculty resigned.
I went out to lunch with one of the Board members, and spent some time getting back to a brother-in-Christ to brother-in-Christ frame of mind. He asked me, "If we can't call ourselves "evangelical protestants," what CAN we call ourselves?" I asked, "How about "Christians?" Again he asked me, "If we aren't under the authority of a denomination, whose authority are we under?" Again I repled with a question, "How about the Lord Jesus Christ?"
Find me one verse that says we are supposed to go to Church.
Well, with the exception of Philemon, the epistles are directed to churches.....no? Pretty much the whole NT is directed to individual churches....Galatians the whole region. They are even called churches. The church that is at Ephesus, the church that is at Laodicea, Corinthians and on it goes.......if it is not directed at a specific church, then it is addressing how we conduct ourselves within those churches? Some are directed at how elders should conduct themselves within and without the church.......it also tells us what qualifies them to be elders of a church....but, no where do I see "Stay away" No where do I see it doesn't matter.
The whole thing pretty much implies we should be a part of a church. Why else would we be told how to conduct ourselves in it? Why else would the Lord give us structure? It is a misnomer to believe that the 1st Century held worship services in the home. They broke bread, they prayed, but if you read throughout Acts...they were daily in the temple.
In revelation, Jesus even judges the individual churches. He acknowledges them.
I am not against bible studies in the home....but this should be in addition to time set aside to gather and worship. I am not saying that now in countries where there is persecution, they have to hide in homes. We don't have to.
It even says Peter and John had a little singing ceremony in prison! :)
But, if you can tell me where it says not to go to church....I will listen.
What are churches role in helping people recover from abusive organizations like TWI? Are they a mandatory step? Are they the only way to live a Christian life?
How exactly are you defining "churches"? Divisions, denominations, groups, schisms, buildings, or the one body? *shrugs*
I guess for me personally, I don't acknowledge any sort of divisional structure within the body of Christ. That includes labels of doctrinal beliefs that divide one group from another, or one of a myriad of practices within the "Christian" community.
If I use the word church, it to me defines those who seek God and His ways. How they define Christ (one, not one, etc) has very little relevance with me. Ones doctrinal stance has no bearing on my view, since by their works, you can tell those who seek God's ways, and those who don't. And since those who seek God can be found in just about every church/denomination/group I've ever seen, then there's no sense in me making a big deal about who one is with (INCLUDING TWI).. So yes, I even include many in TWI part of the church.
Abuse, like that found in TWI and many other schisms acting as the body, I don't believe is anything unique to even just Christianity. It can be found in many workplaces, families, nations, political parties, and social clubs. People pledge allegiance to so many things that they think is "godly" that end up taking advantage of them.
I do believe that finding those whose lives show forth fruit, God's love, God's ways, I do think they are extremely helpful. They are a part of the church. God's church. I wouldn't say they are mandatory but they are helpful. And I also believe that they are just as helpful in your day to day life as a friend helping you stay on the right path.
But if we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. They can be of help as long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help..
I am unsure about this man made thing I keep hearing. If Christ is preached and God is worshiped in church....is it a man made thing because of the building? Who prints the bible? That is man made.
Is it not man made if there is no structure and you meet by the river?
Are institutions man made....or are they structured by men for the purpose of serving God?
I think there is some confusion as to what constitutes man made.....maybe? Don't you think possibly God has His hand in the forming of churches for His purposes? I surely do.
I am unsure about this man made thing I keep hearing. If Christ is preached and God is worshiped in church....is it a man made thing because of the building? Who prints the bible? That is man made.
Man made meaning anything Christ or God has not established. Did Christ set the Baptist church apart from the Pentecostals? Did God form the 7th day Adventists and not the non-denominational local group? They are all man made in that God formed the people, Christ leads them all and has not assembled them separate from one another, that was man's doing. Man's work. Man made.
Yes, men print the bible. Even men translated the bible. And yes, there are errors in all such things man-made, including the translations.
Is it not man made if there is no structure and you meet by the river?
Did God or man set the structure... You tell me. God certainly called us all together unto one body.. What does man do?
Are institutions man made....or are they structured by men for the purpose of serving God?
I think there is some confusion as to what constitutes man made.....maybe? Don't you think possibly God has His hand in the forming of churches for His purposes? I surely do.
Instructions not given by God are certainly man made. Why should I follow men instead of God? Or why should I call men's instructions not given by God, as if they were? Is that not what happened in TWI?
Every good work shall give account for itself whether it is of God or not. But I will not judge, except by their fruit. Men do many things they believe is "of God" when in reality it is not. I am guilty of this myself. I'm sure God brought many wonderful people together who are part of Christ's body, but only to do His purpose. Which goes back to again like I said before..
If we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. As long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help brought together by God for His purpose...
I am unsure about this man made thing I keep hearing. If Christ is preached and God is worshiped in church....is it a man made thing because of the building? Who prints the bible? That is man made.
Is it not man made if there is no structure and you meet by the river?
Are institutions man made....or are they structured by men for the purpose of serving God?
I think there is some confusion as to what constitutes man made.....maybe? Don't you think possibly God has His hand in the forming of churches for His purposes? I surely do.
Is it always easy to tell where one ends and the other begins?
How does one "go to church", if we are the church?!
So is there something in the scripture that defines what your "church" looks like?
And what exactly defines a "home bible study" to you that does not define a church?
To me it looks like you're trying to define something and laying a burden on the body that even our Lord has not laid..
Meeting with one another.. Sure.. But it seems like you are trying to define that meeting with words not uttered by our Lord for a reason.
huh?
We already have defined established churches??? They are in every town in America I imagine. Christians BUILT those churches from the ground up.......someone established them and it wasn't Muslims..... The only thing I see here....is eschewing what we have built as Christians and seeking to redefine it.....simply to avoid it.
Whoa.....wait a second here....it is wrong because men seek structure in serving God? No it isn't. They are still seeking to serve God....it doesn't mean you are following men. The structure of a Sunday Service serves a purpose....it is not wrong in and of itself....it is how we come together. It can be beautiful and full of worship......songs sung to the Lord....prayer ....giving to the needs of others.....it requires some structure.
I really do NOT get the problem you guys have with churches.
Trust and Obey,
Denominations actually serve a purpose. Maybe they are not as divisive as you believe. Consider the church at Jerusalem and James and then the church at Corinth. The focus was different. One was a very poor church, very stern, the other prosperous and a bit wild but highly gifted. Different focus doesn't always mean a bad thing. People require different things. It is when we begin to deny certain basic tenets of our faith in the Lord...we get into trouble.
I really do NOT get the problem you guys have with churches.
No problem. I'm over the argument. I think that some of our disagreement is due to using the same terms to talk about quite different things. I started a couple threads to clarify terms and facilitate the free exchange of ideas around it.
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geisha779
Oh, it wasn't a sincere question? Sounded like one to me. Silly me....I must have answered sarcasm. Please continue littering up the place yourself. The last and only time I started a thread was month
chockfull
Geisha, I'm not going to get on you for sharing your Christian experience. It's a genuine experience. I am genuinely happy for you that you have found a genuine small group of Christians that you c
OldSkool
Yes, I litter up the About the Way section with topics....you guessed it, you rocket scientist you......here comes......About the Way. Even though this thread ties in somewhat. It's now pretty much an
WordWolf
Churches are one option in recovering from twi abusive thinking, abusive doctrine, and abusive practices.
Some churches are quite good in helping people learn to actually treat others
as if you love them like yourself.
There's one in my neighborhood that would be a great place to learn substance over style.
Do I agree with their doctrine?
No.
Can I work alongside the Christians there?
Yes-and I have.
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chockfull
Thx WordWolf.
My views are that mainstream Christianity in general and churches in particular are a useful resource in cult recovery in two main ways:
1) To see the error in TWI's 'household' mentality - there are many more great Christians out there that are ignored through an elitist 'household' teaching
2) To build new positive experiences interacting with other Christians helps people to put in perspective relationships in TWI that are no longer existent due to shunning.
They are helpful in addition to other resources, such as books like 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse', which describes a couple of individuals efforts at establishing a community church and what they learned about how people use scriptures to control and abuse others.
I do not hold the view that they are a mandatory step - I see too much evidence to the contrary on this forum. Many people around here are building great positive things in their lives that have nothing to do with churches. Rebuilding family relationships, taking up hobbies, enjoying social circles, having a productive career, education - all of these things are also vital and helpful steps in recovery.
In my view also - one thing to be cautious of with churches. Jumping from one 'cult member' mentality where you are being abused to another in a mainstream church is definitely not a good direction to go. There is spiritual abuse in many, many places under many guises. The authors of the book describe it in their local community church. To jump from one situation to another without changing yourself in my view is like being a victim in a domestic violence situation and running right to another abusive partner. People need to break the endless cycle of that behavior in addition to just leaving the organization.
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Tzaia
Going to a regular church helped me with the us vs them mentality, but by all means I don't think it's the only way to get past the whole TWI thing.
FWIW I get the same vibe about the whole church is the answer thing as I used to get from people during my TWI days when I wasn't going to enough evenings or making TWI enough of a priority (at least to their comfort level). My feeling is that if what you are doing works for you, then who am I to tell you to do things differently?
I go to church to give me a sense of normalcy.
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OldSkool
I am all for anyone going to church or not.
The way I see it, after some serious thought, is churches can be towers of babel - the works of men's hands to reach God or the can simply be a place to meet in a group and fellowship. To me the problem comes in when people say "THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO!!!! YOU MUST COME HERE OR YOU ARE WRONG!!!" That's just wrong. Each Christian in the body of Christ is to hold the head, who is Christ. Follow the Lord's lead, do his work. If that work involves making an organization then that organization is known by it's fruits. Does it magnify God, does it magnify Christ? Or does it just magnify the denomination or some other man and demand loyalty and obedience? By their fruit we are supposed to know them. God is not in a church of it's own and neither is Christ. Christ is wherever two or three gather in his name. In a church or down by the river matters not.
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OldSkool
We're supposed to make Jesus Lord.
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Oakspear
As a non-Christian, obviously I don't believe that churches are a "mandatory step", however I think that for some people they are crucial for getting through the post-cult time and getting settled in a Christian life.
As far as living a Christian life, I think that one would be hard pressed to identify me as a non-Christian just by observing my actions, my beliefs differ, but if you followed me and my two Christian brothers around for a year with a camera I doubt you could easily say which of us was the pagan.
But as far as church attendance goes, many people benefit greatly from the structure, the guidance, the fellowship, and that makes me thankful that they're out there.
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rascal
I don`t think there is a one size fits all...you must go to church you must subscribe to an offshoot you must be with like minded people therapy no therapy..etc.
For 5 yrs post twi I was in the same stagnant mindset...my arrogance in my knowledge of scripture..my confiidence that I had the truth and every one else was stupid...prevented any healing or moving on...I was hopeless doomed to operating principles that didn`t work no matter how scrupulously applied, and inevitably blaming myself for the lack of results.
In the avatar movie there is a line that to me describes our mindset to a t... *It is hard to fill a cup that is already full*
Meaning if we think we know it all, think that our knowledge makes us spiritual, enlightened, our beliefs the only possible conclusion...what could thos idiots in the church teach ME?? We limit ourselves ...there isn`t room to learn from people with whom God has guided on a different path, different lessons learned ...different long suits mastered.
I have learned a great deal from our little country church. Love, support, encouragement, recognizing and valuing each individual and the contributions that the unique insight developed through their own spiritual journey.
Some churches we have attended have been better for us than others...no doubt they suit the people that attend just fine, they just weren`t for us where we were at at the time....a couple were even nearly as poisonous and destructive as twi...
I have met some outstanding spiritual individuals inside and outside the church. Meeting wonderful spirit filled christians in my experience doesn`t seem to be limited to a particular denomination, and they seem to be able to b able to lend perspective and guidance that is new and refreshing after our twi experience.
What I am trying to say is that I have learned not to discredit an individual or the value of what they might have to impart because of the label they wear.
Divisiveness is a twi trait that will keep us forever isolated if we let it :(
Amen I wish I had said it, that covers it nicely :)
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geisha779
There isn't a great deal of persecution here Oldskool, but, I wonder how many who don't feel they need a church.....would fall on there face and thank God for one......if the right to assemble was gone and we had no where, but a church home to turn to to flee persecution. Are we able to withstand that on our own? What makes us think we can withstand all the other barrages and voices that call out to us.....without some structure and guidance?
That is why many in countries where there is severe persecution pray so for us. We have it so easy.....and we take what we have for granted. It is tough enough to get ones own family to stick out the tough times. But, a church family, in the face of opposition or out is bound together in love of Him.
It is interesting to me that you mention that verse about gathering in His name. Even with the quickest glance of context it is evident that those verses are speaking of forgiveness and discipline within the church(home bible study) It references how leaders and elders should discipline and restore those who have erred. Structure. From the Lord Himself.
Jesus is also acknowledging the Mosaic law of two or more regarding how many witness you need to bring a charge. Chapter 18 starts off with instructions about humility 1-6 punishment of offenders 7-11, 5-9 speaks about the offended brother. The rest of the chapter speaks about forgiveness. How many times should I forgive my brother?
Interestingly enough........in the MIDDLE of this chapter is the parable of the Lost Sheep. 12-14 How do you think this fits in? It is the Lord who finds us and carries us back to .....what? The structure and safety of the flock with Him as the head. We are not meant to wander alone.
If the point of that verse is how many people are needed for Him to be there....please explain to me about Job, Jeremiah in the dung pit, Jonah.
Paul saying....all have forsaken but....John on the Isle of Patmos.....Joseph in a pit, dungeon, or jail.....
I don't believe those verses are encouragement to not find a church, but they are encouragement TO find one.
What I want to know is......who is to say, when two or more gather.....that Christ is magnified?
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JavaJane
I think it all just depends on the individual... For me, it probably would have been better for me to stay out of churches completely for a year or two after leaving twi just so that my brain could go back to normal without any reminders of twi (or religion).
I currently (sorta) attend a Catholic church (I say sorta because I have a toddler who does not possess an inside voice at the moment, and who can't seem to sit still for more than 20 minutes at a time... this means that I go to church on the big days - Christmas, Easter, etc, and we had her baptized in the church, which was really beautiful, but I digress...) I like the church because it is so very different from twi. It's so large that I can blend into the background with everyone else - I don't get marked out as a non-partipating member who needs to be brought back into the fold, it teaches very simple and direct teachings, they are involved with the community, and I am fascinated with the doctrine. The church is also very tranquil. I am not a full member of the Catholic faith, and I do not know if I really want to be - maybe some day, but for now I am content to sit and observe and be blessed by what I see. That is the state I am in, and it gives me what I need.
My wounds are too fresh to be a gung-ho member of anything - even my La Leche League meetings reminded me of being in twi so much that attended it twice and then never came back. I'm a buit gun shy.
My husband rushed to another church as soon as he got out of twi... it was not a good experience. I posted about it in an earlier thread:
Ok, so that experience was not good, and now he won't go to church unless me, my mother in law, and my father in law drag him there (the church I attend is the one he attended as a child.)
I think it just depends on the person. For a long time I couldn't go into a church or hear any teachings even on TV or the radio without one of two reactions: if the teaching touched me, I would cry uncontrollably because it was right and it hurt that I thought everyone outside of twi was evil for so long - or - if it hurt me to hear it, I would get angry and be mad for days at myself for hating the teaching.... too much condemnation for me on both counts.
For a few years, I would have been better to just shut it all down and spend time within myself to allow myself to heal enough to be able to receive what others thought.
**edited for clarity.
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OldSkool
Find me one verse that says we are supposed to go to Church.
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Steve Lortz
In the parable of the wheat and the tares, I believe Jesus indicated that the weeds will be allowed to live side by side with the wheat until the time of the harvest. I think there are good, honest, god-fearing people in every denomination, church and cult. I think there are also wolves in sheeps' clothing in every denomination, church and cult.
When I was involved with the Way International, I taught what the "ministry" taught because I thought it was right. I didn't pay attention to what other churches taught, because I could see obvious errors in some of what they taught.
After the Lord took His hand off from before my eyes, I could see that some of what I taught in the Way International was also error. I thought, "Yeah, those particular things were errors, but that doesn't change the truth of the things I taught that were right!"
Then He pointed out to me that just because other denominations, churches and cults teach some error, that doesn't mean that there is NO truth for me to learn from them.
Since then I've come to regard learning about God, Jesus and the Bible in terms of The Blind Men and the Elephant. Instead of becoming adamant that my understanding is the only true one, and people holding any other understanding just can't be Christians, I've learned to seek for those parts of their understanding that can extend my own understanding into a greater appreciation of God's integrity.
I taught Humane Letters for five years in a small interdenominational Christian classical academy. It was founded by a bunch of home-schoolers who decided they could be more effective working as a group. It was the closest thing I've experienced to a free and open church. We had a set of primary doctrines upon which we all agreed. These were EXTREMELY simple and pretty much paralled the apostles' creed. All other doctrines were considered secondary, and instruction in those was reserved to the students' parents and religious leaders. We could teach about the secondary doctrines, but we couldn't promote one of them over against another interpretation.
When my brother's 7th-graders brought up the topic of the Trinity in his class, he had each of his students write a brief report on what their parents and church teachers had to say about the subject. He then had each of the students read his or her paper in class. The students were exposed to a lot of different perspectives on the subject, but in a non-argumentative, non-proselytising way.
As faculty members, we learned to discuss our differences in a respectful, probative, exploratory way. It was very informative and resulted in Christian solidarity, in spite of our differences.
The Board hired a new Headmaster whose interpetaion of "interdenominational" included evangelical protestants only. The Board fired two of our best and most respected teachers because they were American Orthodox. The whole faculty resigned.
I went out to lunch with one of the Board members, and spent some time getting back to a brother-in-Christ to brother-in-Christ frame of mind. He asked me, "If we can't call ourselves "evangelical protestants," what CAN we call ourselves?" I asked, "How about "Christians?" Again he asked me, "If we aren't under the authority of a denomination, whose authority are we under?" Again I repled with a question, "How about the Lord Jesus Christ?"
The school died.
All for now.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Well, with the exception of Philemon, the epistles are directed to churches.....no? Pretty much the whole NT is directed to individual churches....Galatians the whole region. They are even called churches. The church that is at Ephesus, the church that is at Laodicea, Corinthians and on it goes.......if it is not directed at a specific church, then it is addressing how we conduct ourselves within those churches? Some are directed at how elders should conduct themselves within and without the church.......it also tells us what qualifies them to be elders of a church....but, no where do I see "Stay away" No where do I see it doesn't matter.
The whole thing pretty much implies we should be a part of a church. Why else would we be told how to conduct ourselves in it? Why else would the Lord give us structure? It is a misnomer to believe that the 1st Century held worship services in the home. They broke bread, they prayed, but if you read throughout Acts...they were daily in the temple.
In revelation, Jesus even judges the individual churches. He acknowledges them.
I am not against bible studies in the home....but this should be in addition to time set aside to gather and worship. I am not saying that now in countries where there is persecution, they have to hide in homes. We don't have to.
It even says Peter and John had a little singing ceremony in prison! :)
But, if you can tell me where it says not to go to church....I will listen.
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TrustAndObey
How exactly are you defining "churches"? Divisions, denominations, groups, schisms, buildings, or the one body? *shrugs*
I guess for me personally, I don't acknowledge any sort of divisional structure within the body of Christ. That includes labels of doctrinal beliefs that divide one group from another, or one of a myriad of practices within the "Christian" community.
If I use the word church, it to me defines those who seek God and His ways. How they define Christ (one, not one, etc) has very little relevance with me. Ones doctrinal stance has no bearing on my view, since by their works, you can tell those who seek God's ways, and those who don't. And since those who seek God can be found in just about every church/denomination/group I've ever seen, then there's no sense in me making a big deal about who one is with (INCLUDING TWI).. So yes, I even include many in TWI part of the church.
Abuse, like that found in TWI and many other schisms acting as the body, I don't believe is anything unique to even just Christianity. It can be found in many workplaces, families, nations, political parties, and social clubs. People pledge allegiance to so many things that they think is "godly" that end up taking advantage of them.
I do believe that finding those whose lives show forth fruit, God's love, God's ways, I do think they are extremely helpful. They are a part of the church. God's church. I wouldn't say they are mandatory but they are helpful. And I also believe that they are just as helpful in your day to day life as a friend helping you stay on the right path.
But if we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. They can be of help as long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help..
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TrustAndObey
How does one "go to church", if we are the church?!
So is there something in the scripture that defines what your "church" looks like?
And what exactly defines a "home bible study" to you that does not define a church?
To me it looks like you're trying to define something and laying a burden on the body that even our Lord has not laid..
Meeting with one another.. Sure.. But it seems like you are trying to define that meeting with words not uttered by our Lord for a reason.
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OldSkool
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1577&t=KJV
I believe you to be using the word church in it's modern usage. Namely, the first definition in the following link.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/church
If you can verify that for me please, I will be happy to comment further. Thanks!
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geisha779
I am unsure about this man made thing I keep hearing. If Christ is preached and God is worshiped in church....is it a man made thing because of the building? Who prints the bible? That is man made.
Is it not man made if there is no structure and you meet by the river?
Are institutions man made....or are they structured by men for the purpose of serving God?
I think there is some confusion as to what constitutes man made.....maybe? Don't you think possibly God has His hand in the forming of churches for His purposes? I surely do.
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OldSkool
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soul searcher
Yes I remember. ("Hell freaking no!" -- I still get a chuckle out of that.)
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chockfull
I just started a thread on this, actually.
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TrustAndObey
Man made meaning anything Christ or God has not established. Did Christ set the Baptist church apart from the Pentecostals? Did God form the 7th day Adventists and not the non-denominational local group? They are all man made in that God formed the people, Christ leads them all and has not assembled them separate from one another, that was man's doing. Man's work. Man made.
Yes, men print the bible. Even men translated the bible. And yes, there are errors in all such things man-made, including the translations.
Did God or man set the structure... You tell me. God certainly called us all together unto one body.. What does man do?
Instructions not given by God are certainly man made. Why should I follow men instead of God? Or why should I call men's instructions not given by God, as if they were? Is that not what happened in TWI?
Every good work shall give account for itself whether it is of God or not. But I will not judge, except by their fruit. Men do many things they believe is "of God" when in reality it is not. I am guilty of this myself. I'm sure God brought many wonderful people together who are part of Christ's body, but only to do His purpose. Which goes back to again like I said before..
If we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. As long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help brought together by God for His purpose...
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chockfull
Is it always easy to tell where one ends and the other begins?
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geisha779
huh?
We already have defined established churches??? They are in every town in America I imagine. Christians BUILT those churches from the ground up.......someone established them and it wasn't Muslims..... The only thing I see here....is eschewing what we have built as Christians and seeking to redefine it.....simply to avoid it.
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geisha779
Whoa.....wait a second here....it is wrong because men seek structure in serving God? No it isn't. They are still seeking to serve God....it doesn't mean you are following men. The structure of a Sunday Service serves a purpose....it is not wrong in and of itself....it is how we come together. It can be beautiful and full of worship......songs sung to the Lord....prayer ....giving to the needs of others.....it requires some structure.
I really do NOT get the problem you guys have with churches.
Trust and Obey,
Denominations actually serve a purpose. Maybe they are not as divisive as you believe. Consider the church at Jerusalem and James and then the church at Corinth. The focus was different. One was a very poor church, very stern, the other prosperous and a bit wild but highly gifted. Different focus doesn't always mean a bad thing. People require different things. It is when we begin to deny certain basic tenets of our faith in the Lord...we get into trouble.
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chockfull
No problem. I'm over the argument. I think that some of our disagreement is due to using the same terms to talk about quite different things. I started a couple threads to clarify terms and facilitate the free exchange of ideas around it.
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