Yes, I absolutely remember VPW teaching about the sins of the father being visited on his children and his children's children. This was all tied up in the idea that if you "tripped out" (left TWI), your progeny would have to pay for your indiscretion.
That is kinda like sudden fear, sudden fear is a trip; like a big dog, just jump's out from behind a bush at you; if you leave the way, you will have a bad time somehow, that is kinda like sudden fear?
Yes, I absolutely remember VPW teaching about the sins of the father being visited on his children and his children's children. This was all tied up in the idea that if you "tripped out" (left TWI), your progeny would have to pay for your indiscretion.
Strange that when parents stay faithful to the way international their progeny will have to pay for their indiscretion. Guess damned if you do and damned if you don't.
But there are groups out there who will sit you down, interview you, and then supposidely pinpoint something sinful from an ancestor. I remember VP talking about the sins of the fathers being passed down, and LCM would do his tirades...but TWI didn't go through this complex, introspective process of finding something wrong in one's family line hundreds of years ago and then praying through it.
But there are groups out there who will sit you down, interview you, and then supposidely pinpoint something sinful from an ancestor. I remember VP talking about the sins of the fathers being passed down, and LCM would do his tirades...but TWI didn't go through this complex, introspective process of finding something wrong in one's family line hundreds of years ago and then praying through it.
Correct----They used it to control present and future behavior, not to explain how the past was affecting you.
These last three points of view, what you guys just said has a big time affect on that believing law, that man gets to play with? Can I say that, a believing law that man gets to play with? If I am concerned about the splinters in your eye, my having a phony concern, is where the roots of that playing with that believing law, in away? Can man make believing into a law, what Abraham did all his life, he just did it; but the phoniness of man's believing, that kind of believing becomes a law?
We have liberties in this body of which Yeshua is the head; can I label one of my liberties, and spin a law thing from it; have you encountered such a thing?
We have liberties in this body of which Yeshua is the head; can I label one of my liberties, and spin a law thing from it; have you encountered such a thing?
Oh yeah! All the time. I've even done it myself and continue to do it if I'm not careful. That whole "Believing=Receiving stuff", and "Abundant Sharing stuff" that TWI propounded is a good example.
But people in all walks of life do it too.
Let's say in my freedom I decide to adhere to a strict diet. Eventually I become incredibly healthy, lose weight, and in my case, certain physical maladies disappear. Great! However, things start getting twisted if I take that freedom and start finding my self worth through my adherence to my newfound diet. If I don't live up to this new standard I've set for myself, then I'm encased in shame. Maybe I even start judging others who don't have my "discipline" (ever been around a self-righteous ex-smoker?) Initially I was simply choosing to eat differently.
Does this address your question, or am I chasing a rabbit trail?
Nothing wrong with choosing a new diet, it's what I do with it.
That diet example is good, i see what your saying there, those liberties can be a fine line? So If I can get you to think about or question why you are dieting, I might be able to sell you something about it or control your diet somehow to my good, a person could be worked, if I can get them to think about or question their liberties? Can say that, in away?
If I can get someone to think about or question their liberties, then that would set in motion, the law of cause and effect; can I say that, in away?
The law of cause and effect, bringing that to the level of man, that is a con in away, seems like someone could do some damage in this area?
Have you heard of this, their is this group that does a generation thing, they go back in people's life's, they find things like 3 generations down the road, their family member did so and so, then teach these laws to help bring them back from what was done 3 generations ago? Has the way done any of this under a different name?
I have seen this sort of thing in TWI. Here's a couple examples:
I asked a clergyman about Down Syndrome. A former boss of mine had a child who was born with it, and this was very devastating to the couple. I liked the couple a lot. The child was born just days before I left to go in residence, so I think the wife and child were still in the hospital when I moved. It nagged at me. The Way always seemed to have some sort of spiritual explanation for everything in the world, so I asked a clergyman who replied to me that this sort of thing happens because of generations of unbelief. He said there must have been generations of unbelief, which remember is rampant in churches according to TWI--and these were church-going Greek Orthodox people, as well as their families.
Another time I was discussing why the USA has such fertile land and why the Middle East can't grow any crops. The answer? Years and years of unbelief coupled with slothfulness in not tilling the ground has made the ground unable to bear crops.
One time when I saw this generational thing tied in a bit more plausibly, or at least it seems a little more logical to me, was when a girl I knew (a former roommate of mine) committed suicide. After the leadership looked into it via her husband, they found that her father had committed suicide also. So LCM linked the two and noted that she had never overcome the spiritual influence of the devil spirits her father had been possessed with when he took his life. I can see a link there; however, there's more to this incident. LCM said that what made this even more devilish was that the couple had been mark and avoid and then she waited until they were welcomed back into "the household" and then committed suicide. I think that for someone who really loves God and thinks that TWI's brand of the Word is truth, then for them to be M&A by the organization that represents God to them would be very detrimental. I think this is another case where TWI doctrine contributed more to this girl's suicide than her father's suicide did. (Remember T0m Mitch3ll? Not that his had anything to do with his family, but with TWI doctrine--or perhaps just TWI practice. Either way, I think TWI is more responsible for these deaths than any other source.)
The Way always seemed to have some sort of spiritual explanation for everything in the world, so I asked a clergyman who replied to me that this sort of thing happens because of generations of unbelief. He said there must have been generations of unbelief, which remember is rampant in churches according to TWI--and these were church-going Greek Orthodox people, as well as their families.
There we go again, just make it up as you go along as long as you make it sound "spiritual". (Not you, the clergyman).
Really though, this is different in practice from what what TeachMe is asking. Those groups have an "expert" on hand that will interview you. Trust me, they will find a generational curse or sin somewhere. Then they have a team of people pray over you. I don't know if they charge for their services or not, but I expect they get money from you somehow. Whereas TWI just used this belief to explain things away. They got their money from "The Wonder Class" and ABS. With these groups, their main "bread and butter" is discovering and then praying against the supposed "sins of the father".
The reason I know this is because we got a guy here locally that does this. He even bought an old church building. I worked with a guy that went through this. Eventually he embraced the doctrine fully. Hey, it's a great way to clear yourself of any responsibility. I mean, the reason I'm a thief (for example) is because of my great great great grandfather. Instead of "The Devil made me do it" (I'm dating myself), it's "Grandpa made me do it".
Another time I was discussing why the USA has such fertile land and why the Middle East can't grow any crops. The answer? Years and years of unbelief coupled with slothfulness in not tilling the ground has made the ground unable to bear crops.
What an astounding grasp of history and ecology and horticulture that have!! (I am being sarcastic here!)
Really though, this is different in practice from what what TeachMe is asking.
Oh, I didn't know anything about those groups. You know, you get kinda sheltered to other ways of doing things when you're in a cult that refuses to even consider anything other than its own doctrines and practices.
What an astounding grasp of history and ecology and horticulture that have!! (I am being sarcastic here!)
The Way always seemed to have some sort of spiritual explanation for everything in the world, so I asked a clergyman who replied to me that this sort of thing (Down's Syndrome) happens because of generations of unbelief. He said there must have been generations of unbelief.
After I posted my previous response, I thought of something else regarding this question in particular. You asked a clergyman how this sort of thing could happen and he answered the above. What about in the Gospel of John when the disciples asked Jesus about the blind man? The question was, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind. Jesus' reply was neither, I'm sure you know the rest of the record. I guess we just threw that record out when it suited us. TWI could not accept the fact that someone could be in TWI, have bad things happen to them, and it not be the fault of anyone. They couldn't face the fact that sometimes bad things happen for no apparent reason, even if you're believing. It's just too frightening. I agree that it's frightening at times. But manipulating facts or making up stuff isn't going to solve anything. Therein lies the true powerlessness of TWI in my opinion. It forces a magical make believe world.
I've met quite a few people who are involved in occult stuff. None are involvd in a hierarchy of leaders leading up to th MOG that they look up to and obey without qustion.
I think it was the desire to control people from the top down that really hurt way people.
I've met quite a few people who are involved in occult stuff. None are involvd in a hierarchy of leaders leading up to th MOG that they look up to and obey without qustion.
I think it was the desire to control people from the top down that really hurt way people.
V. P. Wierwille honored and learned from Albert Cliffe. Wierwille compliments Cliffe in the "About the Author" section in most of his books, which was printed either as a separate section before the Introduction, or on the book flap.
"About the Author" stated that Wierwille learned from and worked with Cliffe and others, who "were guests of Dr. Wierwille's local congregation." Wierwille wrote in The Twenti-fifth Anniversary Souvenir Booklet, p. 13,
Wierwille took many of his teachings from Cliffe and his books Let Go and Let God- Steps in Victorious Living (LGLG) and Lessons in Successful Living (LSL). Cliffe uses terms and concepts followers of Wierwille would relate to, such as "positive and negative faith," "perfect faith believing," "the ministry of healing," "tithing and the law of prosperity," "sowing and reaping," "the law of cause and effect," "your enemy- fear," "Faith- how to get it.""abundant living" and making "mental images" of things you want to produce by believing (many of these are chapter titles in Lessons in Successful Living).
For example, Cliffe proudly claims to be a medium and psychic. The Way has always opposed mediums (sometimes called spiritualists or channelers). The "Burn the Chaff Weekend" brochure (March 16, 1985) noted that followers of The Way International "brought their books dealing with spiritualism... and burned them." Apparently, they never burned Wierwille's copies of Cliffe's books, though they should have done so.
Cliffe freely admitted he was a medium, "Many of the subjects I have given in my Bible class have been dictated to me by my loved ones long since passed on." He calls this his "psychic work."
A longer article and photo on Cliffe is in the Photo Gallery section of abouttheway.org
hi johnj does somebody alert you to topics here or do you check in ? just curious (nothing bad meant by it)
all this crap with the way and suicides and blaming blaming blaming makes me SICK
i don't know, if god is so wicked, i wouldn't want to know him
this might not make sense but i don't feel like going on for once
Once in a while I check in to see what the recent topics are.
All the crap with TWI makes... everybody sick. Because it's all about broken hopes, damage, hurt people. This is the legacy of VPW and TWI. From the opening hours of PFAL when VP attacked every Christian group and teacher (promoting VP and TWI as the only way), they didn't actually build anything, just tore down. Fortunately, God is not that way.
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teachmevp
What are your thoughts on that Unitarian group?
Seems that the Way and this group might have a few things in common?
How does this group differ from the way, in their teaching those laws that man play with?
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waysider
Yes, I absolutely remember VPW teaching about the sins of the father being visited on his children and his children's children. This was all tied up in the idea that if you "tripped out" (left TWI), your progeny would have to pay for your indiscretion.
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teachmevp
That is kinda like sudden fear, sudden fear is a trip; like a big dog, just jump's out from behind a bush at you; if you leave the way, you will have a bad time somehow, that is kinda like sudden fear?
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OldSkool
Strange that when parents stay faithful to the way international their progeny will have to pay for their indiscretion. Guess damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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Broken Arrow
But there are groups out there who will sit you down, interview you, and then supposidely pinpoint something sinful from an ancestor. I remember VP talking about the sins of the fathers being passed down, and LCM would do his tirades...but TWI didn't go through this complex, introspective process of finding something wrong in one's family line hundreds of years ago and then praying through it.
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waysider
Correct----They used it to control present and future behavior, not to explain how the past was affecting you.
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teachmevp
These last three points of view, what you guys just said has a big time affect on that believing law, that man gets to play with? Can I say that, a believing law that man gets to play with? If I am concerned about the splinters in your eye, my having a phony concern, is where the roots of that playing with that believing law, in away? Can man make believing into a law, what Abraham did all his life, he just did it; but the phoniness of man's believing, that kind of believing becomes a law?
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teachmevp
We have liberties in this body of which Yeshua is the head; can I label one of my liberties, and spin a law thing from it; have you encountered such a thing?
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Broken Arrow
Oh yeah! All the time. I've even done it myself and continue to do it if I'm not careful. That whole "Believing=Receiving stuff", and "Abundant Sharing stuff" that TWI propounded is a good example.
But people in all walks of life do it too.
Let's say in my freedom I decide to adhere to a strict diet. Eventually I become incredibly healthy, lose weight, and in my case, certain physical maladies disappear. Great! However, things start getting twisted if I take that freedom and start finding my self worth through my adherence to my newfound diet. If I don't live up to this new standard I've set for myself, then I'm encased in shame. Maybe I even start judging others who don't have my "discipline" (ever been around a self-righteous ex-smoker?) Initially I was simply choosing to eat differently.
Does this address your question, or am I chasing a rabbit trail?
Nothing wrong with choosing a new diet, it's what I do with it.
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teachmevp
That diet example is good, i see what your saying there, those liberties can be a fine line? So If I can get you to think about or question why you are dieting, I might be able to sell you something about it or control your diet somehow to my good, a person could be worked, if I can get them to think about or question their liberties? Can say that, in away?
If I can get someone to think about or question their liberties, then that would set in motion, the law of cause and effect; can I say that, in away?
The law of cause and effect, bringing that to the level of man, that is a con in away, seems like someone could do some damage in this area?
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What About It
Bliss wrote: As far as WHY, TWI and occult are not written about enough is simple.
IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH.
Seriously. They haven't made that big of an impact in the world, as the JC's or Mormons, so basically they get ignored.
OldSkool, I think Bliss meant that TWI is not big enough. Not that the problem of TWI/occult doctrine isn't big enough. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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What About It
I have seen this sort of thing in TWI. Here's a couple examples:
I asked a clergyman about Down Syndrome. A former boss of mine had a child who was born with it, and this was very devastating to the couple. I liked the couple a lot. The child was born just days before I left to go in residence, so I think the wife and child were still in the hospital when I moved. It nagged at me. The Way always seemed to have some sort of spiritual explanation for everything in the world, so I asked a clergyman who replied to me that this sort of thing happens because of generations of unbelief. He said there must have been generations of unbelief, which remember is rampant in churches according to TWI--and these were church-going Greek Orthodox people, as well as their families.
Another time I was discussing why the USA has such fertile land and why the Middle East can't grow any crops. The answer? Years and years of unbelief coupled with slothfulness in not tilling the ground has made the ground unable to bear crops.
One time when I saw this generational thing tied in a bit more plausibly, or at least it seems a little more logical to me, was when a girl I knew (a former roommate of mine) committed suicide. After the leadership looked into it via her husband, they found that her father had committed suicide also. So LCM linked the two and noted that she had never overcome the spiritual influence of the devil spirits her father had been possessed with when he took his life. I can see a link there; however, there's more to this incident. LCM said that what made this even more devilish was that the couple had been mark and avoid and then she waited until they were welcomed back into "the household" and then committed suicide. I think that for someone who really loves God and thinks that TWI's brand of the Word is truth, then for them to be M&A by the organization that represents God to them would be very detrimental. I think this is another case where TWI doctrine contributed more to this girl's suicide than her father's suicide did. (Remember T0m Mitch3ll? Not that his had anything to do with his family, but with TWI doctrine--or perhaps just TWI practice. Either way, I think TWI is more responsible for these deaths than any other source.)
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Broken Arrow
There we go again, just make it up as you go along as long as you make it sound "spiritual". (Not you, the clergyman).
Really though, this is different in practice from what what TeachMe is asking. Those groups have an "expert" on hand that will interview you. Trust me, they will find a generational curse or sin somewhere. Then they have a team of people pray over you. I don't know if they charge for their services or not, but I expect they get money from you somehow. Whereas TWI just used this belief to explain things away. They got their money from "The Wonder Class" and ABS. With these groups, their main "bread and butter" is discovering and then praying against the supposed "sins of the father".
The reason I know this is because we got a guy here locally that does this. He even bought an old church building. I worked with a guy that went through this. Eventually he embraced the doctrine fully. Hey, it's a great way to clear yourself of any responsibility. I mean, the reason I'm a thief (for example) is because of my great great great grandfather. Instead of "The Devil made me do it" (I'm dating myself), it's "Grandpa made me do it".
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JavaJane
What an astounding grasp of history and ecology and horticulture that have!! (I am being sarcastic here!)
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What About It
Oh, I didn't know anything about those groups. You know, you get kinda sheltered to other ways of doing things when you're in a cult that refuses to even consider anything other than its own doctrines and practices.
lmao!
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Broken Arrow
After I posted my previous response, I thought of something else regarding this question in particular. You asked a clergyman how this sort of thing could happen and he answered the above. What about in the Gospel of John when the disciples asked Jesus about the blind man? The question was, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind. Jesus' reply was neither, I'm sure you know the rest of the record. I guess we just threw that record out when it suited us. TWI could not accept the fact that someone could be in TWI, have bad things happen to them, and it not be the fault of anyone. They couldn't face the fact that sometimes bad things happen for no apparent reason, even if you're believing. It's just too frightening. I agree that it's frightening at times. But manipulating facts or making up stuff isn't going to solve anything. Therein lies the true powerlessness of TWI in my opinion. It forces a magical make believe world.
How Cathartic! Thanks TeachMe!
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Bramble
I've met quite a few people who are involved in occult stuff. None are involvd in a hierarchy of leaders leading up to th MOG that they look up to and obey without qustion.
I think it was the desire to control people from the top down that really hurt way people.
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JavaJane
I think that hit the nail on the head!!
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johnj
V. P. Wierwille honored and learned from Albert Cliffe. Wierwille compliments Cliffe in the "About the Author" section in most of his books, which was printed either as a separate section before the Introduction, or on the book flap.
"About the Author" stated that Wierwille learned from and worked with Cliffe and others, who "were guests of Dr. Wierwille's local congregation." Wierwille wrote in The Twenti-fifth Anniversary Souvenir Booklet, p. 13,
Wierwille took many of his teachings from Cliffe and his books Let Go and Let God- Steps in Victorious Living (LGLG) and Lessons in Successful Living (LSL). Cliffe uses terms and concepts followers of Wierwille would relate to, such as "positive and negative faith," "perfect faith believing," "the ministry of healing," "tithing and the law of prosperity," "sowing and reaping," "the law of cause and effect," "your enemy- fear," "Faith- how to get it.""abundant living" and making "mental images" of things you want to produce by believing (many of these are chapter titles in Lessons in Successful Living).
For example, Cliffe proudly claims to be a medium and psychic. The Way has always opposed mediums (sometimes called spiritualists or channelers). The "Burn the Chaff Weekend" brochure (March 16, 1985) noted that followers of The Way International "brought their books dealing with spiritualism... and burned them." Apparently, they never burned Wierwille's copies of Cliffe's books, though they should have done so.
Cliffe freely admitted he was a medium, "Many of the subjects I have given in my Bible class have been dictated to me by my loved ones long since passed on." He calls this his "psychic work."
A longer article and photo on Cliffe is in the Photo Gallery section of abouttheway.org
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excathedra
hi johnj does somebody alert you to topics here or do you check in ? just curious (nothing bad meant by it)
all this crap with the way and suicides and blaming blaming blaming makes me SICK
i don't know, if god is so wicked, i wouldn't want to know him
this might not make sense but i don't feel like going on for once
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johnj
Once in a while I check in to see what the recent topics are.
All the crap with TWI makes... everybody sick. Because it's all about broken hopes, damage, hurt people. This is the legacy of VPW and TWI. From the opening hours of PFAL when VP attacked every Christian group and teacher (promoting VP and TWI as the only way), they didn't actually build anything, just tore down. Fortunately, God is not that way.
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excathedra
hear hear
thanks
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