Thoughts on VPW from an Outsider

[James Trimm]

Abigail disagrees with you and pointing out some of what you are missing and just plain wrong tactics.

I don't know who 'we' is, unless you think it's you.

Your beliefs are the way you want to see them,

and the tithe has always been voluntary,

as well as no set percent anywhere forever.

Nor do you see that any tithe is to help those who can't.

Uhhh... "tithe" MEANS "tenth". There are actually three tithes in the Torah (sometimes the second and third tithe are combined, since they are never paid in the same year)

It was the third tithe that went to the widows and orphans.

My view on this as taken from the Scriptures is at:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-4

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-5

But lets end the doctrinal discussion. The point of this thread was to analyze VPW as a composite.

[Abigail]

And why, exactly, are you so interested in 'analyzing' VPW? Why are you (who had no real standing with TWI) so interested in picking apart a dead man you never knew or followed??

[waysider]

If we're going to discuss the tithe on a thread whose focal point is V.P. Wierwille, it only makes sense to limit said discussion to the tithe "as defined by the parameter's of V.P. Wierwille's belief system". Wierwille's belief system was built on a framework of The Bible, not Torah.

Wierwille taught that the tithe is a requirement for today's Christians. The Bible, Wierwille's reference point, clearly states otherwise. Wierwille went on to say that today's Christians should feel compelled to go beyond the standard 10%. Thus, the phrase "Abundant "Sharing" (or ABS) came to be.

Wierwille's plan, from very early on, was to use The Bible to create a vast base of people who would not only tithe, but ABS exclusively to the multi-level marketing scheme he developed, thus ensuring him a steady flow of financial gain. He stressed the (fabricated) spiritual importance of following this doctrine in PFAL when he used the illustration of

Ananias and Saphira's fate because of their disobedience. It was the groundwork for what has proven to be a pattern of subtle manipulation and abuse of power.

Edited June 6, 2010 by waysider

[James Trimm]

Wierwille was hypocritical on this issue (as are many Christian dispensationalists). It the law has been done away with in this dispensation (or as VPW would say "administration") then the tithe has been done away with along with the Sabbath etc.)

(Of course I do not believe that the law was abolished)

From VPW's perspective, the only reason to teach tithing was financial convenience.

If we're going to discuss the tithe on a thread whose focal point is V.P. Wierwille, it only makes sense to limit said discussion to the tithe "as defined by the parameter's of V.P. Wierwille's belief system". Wierwille's belief system was built on a framework of The Bible, not Torah.

Wierwille taught that the tithe is a requirement for today's Christians. The Bible, Wierwille's reference point, clearly states otherwise. Wierwille went on to say that today's Christians should feel compelled to go beyond the standard 10%. Thus, the phrase "Abundant "Sharing" (or ABS) came to be.

Wierwille's plan, from very early on, was to use The Bible to create a vast base of people who would not only tithe, but ABS exclusively to the multi-level marketing scheme he developed, thus ensuring him a steady flow of financial gain. He stressed the (fabricated) spiritual importance of following this doctrine in PFAL when he used the illustration of

Ananias and Saphira's fate because of their disobedience. It was the groundwork for what has proven to be a pattern of subtle manipulation and abuse of power.

[OldSkool]

(Of course I do not believe that the law was abolished)

Abolished?....no. Fulfilled and expanded upon by Christ?.....yes. However, God's promises to Israel are in no way fulfilled. And it's plain in Hebrews that the law is a shadow of things to come. There seems to be some unfinished business.

[James Trimm]

And why, exactly, are you so interested in 'analyzing' VPW? Why are you (who had no real standing with TWI) so interested in picking apart a dead man you never knew or followed??

I have long been interested in Comparative Theology and so-called "cults". In the past I served as a consultant with both the Watchman Fellowship and the Reunion Institute in that regard.

I also served as a consultant on a couple of books about the Branch Davidians. A paper I wrote "The Place of Fire in Branch Davidian Theology" was cited by Congress in the Congressional hearings on the Waco Incident back in the 1990's.

[Abigail]

This Link has some information in that regard, James. Here is an interesting quote:

"In email correspondence spanning May 22- June 4, 2003 and a telephone conversation with Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher for the counter cult organization, Watchman Fellowship, Phillip made the following statements about James Trimm, his doctorate, and on line transcript.

"To my knowledge, James does not have a doctorate. He was given an honorary degree by a church. It was something like the Apostolic Catholic Church. James did not go to college. His Hebrew and Aramaic are self taught. He told me he had not been able to afford college. And he told me when this church gave him the doctorate."

"To my knowledge, James never took those courses. He told me De Cordova was giving him an honorary doctorate. I was in fairly close contact with James from '93 thru '95."

[James Trimm]

Phil Arnn related in a statement a great many "recollections" including a "recollection" that he had NOT written any letter of recommendation for me. Phil Arnn later retracted his earlier statement saying that when shown the actual letter in question he *did* recall writing it and then he characterized his previous statement as based on "one phone conversation" he only "vaguely recall[ed]".

James,

When I was first told about the letter in question ( it was not available

on-line at the time) I did not remember ever writing a letter for you. I was

also under the impression that the letter was an endorsement of your present

theology and movement. Now that I have read the letter, it is obvious that

it is mine and was limited to the recommendation of yourself and the work

you had done on the Branch Davidian theology articles for the Expositor.

As to the reason for your receiving the degree, our recollections differ.

But, I only vaguely recall you mentioning the degree in one phone

conversation. The Word clearly says that a truth is established in the

mouths of two or three witnesses, not just one.

At the present time, 2003, we obviously have taken different roads as to

theology. But, as far as the two issues I have mentioned above, I hope this

sets the record straight.

Phillip Arnn,

Senior Researcher

Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

In a later email Phil Arnn said:

This is like a television crime drama. Where were you on June 3ard, 1995?

Did you have a phone conversation with one James Scott Trimm on the

morning of - - - ? What did he say to you? What did you say to him?

Frankly, I did not remember writing the letter until I saw the letter again

on James's website. I do not remember with a certainty what we said.

This Link has some information in that regard, James. Here is an interesting quote:

"In email correspondence spanning May 22- June 4, 2003 and a telephone conversation with Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher for the counter cult organization, Watchman Fellowship, Phillip made the following statements about James Trimm, his doctorate, and on line transcript.

"To my knowledge, James does not have a doctorate. He was given an honorary degree by a church. It was something like the Apostolic Catholic Church. James did not go to college. His Hebrew and Aramaic are self taught. He told me he had not been able to afford college. And he told me when this church gave him the doctorate."

"To my knowledge, James never took those courses. He told me De Cordova was giving him an honorary doctorate. I was in fairly close contact with James from '93 thru '95."

[Abigail]

Perhaps your friend would like to speak on your behalf for himself? Otherwise you are simply asking us to take your word for, which at this point I'm not inclined to do. Then again, as you will see when you read my response to your other thread, in addition to accusations of having a false diploma, you are also accused of pretending to be a Rabbi. Hmmmm, like I said, you have more negative press than even TWI has.

Good luck to you.

[Abigail]

Here you can find an article "Dr." (or is it Rabbi???) Trimm wrote on Kabbalah. You should know that there is only one Jewish group that makes authentic(imo, which is based on years of research) information on the Kabbalah pubic, and that is chabad.org. A group that James denounced yesterday in the doctrinal forum because they do not believe in his Messiah.

Yup, the old hukster, VPW himself, could have taken lessons from this guy in how to cobble together your own religion by stealing information from already established ones.

[cman]

Uhhh... "tithe" MEANS "tenth". There are actually three tithes in the Torah (sometimes the second and third tithe are combined, since they are never paid in the same year)

It was the third tithe that went to the widows and orphans.

My view on this as taken from the Scriptures is at:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-4

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-5

But lets end the doctrinal discussion. The point of this thread was to analyze VPW as a composite.

Leviticus 27

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

2 Corinthians 8:13-15

13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

Edited June 6, 2010 by cman

[James Trimm]

The following is from my sworn deposition taken by TWI attorneys taken Jan. 29, 2010 concerning the Phil Arnn issue:

We had Mr. Arnn standing by available as a witness (BTW I later found out that after many years he has left Watchman Fellowship although they still know him well.)

This is what I mean when I say that you can say anything on the internet, but when it comes to court and real facts and real discovery and real depositions then internet conspiracy theories start to evaporate.

Remember TWI chose to settle this suit rather than take it to trial after the process of taking depositions and discovery.

This Link has some information in that regard, James. Here is an interesting quote:

"In email correspondence spanning May 22- June 4, 2003 and a telephone conversation with Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher for the counter cult organization, Watchman Fellowship, Phillip made the following statements about James Trimm, his doctorate, and on line transcript.

"To my knowledge, James does not have a doctorate. He was given an honorary degree by a church. It was something like the Apostolic Catholic Church. James did not go to college. His Hebrew and Aramaic are self taught. He told me he had not been able to afford college. And he told me when this church gave him the doctorate."

"To my knowledge, James never took those courses. He told me De Cordova was giving him an honorary doctorate. I was in fairly close contact with James from '93 thru '95."

Edited June 6, 2010 by James Trimm

[Tzaia]

Yawn...

[Abigail]

yeah, uh, sure. I've never seen a witness lie during a deposition! DOH!!!

[waysider]

What are the qualifications one must meet in order to represent their self as a Rabbi?

Edited June 6, 2010 by waysider

[Abigail]

What are the qualifications one must meet in order to represent their self as a Rabbi?

Mainstream Judaism, both Orthodox and Conservative, require graduation from a 4 year Jewish seminary. Chabad and Hassidics have their own qualifications which require intense study as well.

[James Trimm]

Mainstream Judaism, both Orthodox and Conservative, require graduation from a 4 year Jewish seminary. Chabad and Hassidics have their own qualifications which require intense study as well.

According to Orthodox Halacha a Beit Din of three elders can give s'mikhah (laying on of hands - "ordination")

(as stated in the Mishnah m.Sanhedrin 1:3)

[waysider]

James Trimm's doctorate has been used to promote his website "Yeshiva" or simply put, a Jewish Rabbinical School. He stated in an internet email, and on his website that, "Beit Netzarim Nazarene Yeshiva functions under the approbation of the International Nazarene Beit Din."

James Trimm set up the International Nazarene Beit Din, with himself and a few others on the board, and then authorized himself to form the school called, Beit Netzarim Yeshiva, although he isn't Jewish.

The "International Beit Din," then, is the so-called "Jewish authority" formed and headed by James. That means he gets his authority from, makes decisions for and is basically answerable to, himself.

SOURCE

........................................................

Sounds a bit like a certain "Doctor" some of us remember----Dat's Riiiiigggghhhhttt!

[James Trimm]

I did not get where I did with the lawsuit by lying my way through my deposition. If I had lied in my deposition, I have no doubt that TWI attorneys would have taken the case to trial prepared to destroy my credibility before the jury. I am sure they checked up on these things, for exactly that reason. Why settle a suit with someone you can prove lied their way through their deposition?

yeah, uh, sure. I've never seen a witness lie during a deposition! DOH!!!

Edited June 6, 2010 by James Trimm

[Abigail]

Exactly, Waysider! I wanted to try to point it out and explain it, but I couldn't find a way to do so without getting into lenghtly explanations on Judaism. YOu did an excellent job of explaining it!!

[James Trimm]

No, we got the authority to establish a Beit Din from the Torah (not me):

Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates,

which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes:

and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

(Deut. 16:18 KJV)

The Beit Din is a voting body.

James Trimm's doctorate has been used to promote his website "Yeshiva" or simply put, a Jewish Rabbinical School. He stated in an internet email, and on his website that, "Beit Netzarim Nazarene Yeshiva functions under the approbation of the International Nazarene Beit Din."

James Trimm set up the International Nazarene Beit Din, with himself and a few others on the board, and then authorized himself to form the school called, Beit Netzarim Yeshiva, although he isn't Jewish.

The "International Beit Din," then, is the so-called "Jewish authority" formed and headed by James. That means he gets his authority from, makes decisions for and is basically answerable to, himself.

SOURCE

........................................................

Sounds a bit like a certain "Doctor" some of us remember----Dat's Riiiiigggghhhhttt!

[cman]

A lie in a deposition is not enough to take a case to court.

They saw that you don't have any money or it would cost more then they could collect from you.

Or most likely they would expose themselves as like you, a fraud.

[Abigail]

I did not get where I did with the lawsuit by lying my way through my deposition. If I had lied in my deposition, I have no doubt that TWI attorneys would have taken the case to trial prepared to destroy my credibility before the jury. I am sure they checked up on these things, for exactly that reason. Why settle a suit with someone you can prove lied their way through their deposition?

James, I work in the legal field. In litigation. People lie during depositions. Those depositions are then used to impeach the person during trial. It happens quite frequently. If TWI's attorneys caught you in a lie, it would be very poor strategy to let you know about it prior to trial.

The problem with taking their case against you to trial is that legally they had a thin case regardless of whether or not you lied during your deposition. Their case was premised on copyright infringement of a religious nature regarding the Bible. It was going to be a hard case to win.

Moreover, TWI did exactly what you did. They gathered information from numerous source and published books based upon that information, without giving proper credit to their sources. So Clay is right. Taking you to trial would have forced them to risk exposing themselves for the same exact fraudulant activities they accused you of.

Of course, I would imagine your due to your relationship with Michael Rood, you already know this.

[James Trimm]

James, I work in the legal field. In litigation. People lie during depositions. Those depositions are then used to impeach the person during trial. It happens quite frequently. If TWI's attorneys caught you in a lie, it would be very poor strategy to let you know about it prior to trial.

The problem with taking their case against you to trial is that legally they had a thin case regardless of whether or not you lied during your deposition. Their case was premised on copyright infringement of a religious nature regarding the Bible. It was going to be a hard case to win.

Moreover, TWI did exactly what you did. They gathered information from numerous source and published books based upon that information, without giving proper credit to their sources. So Clay is right. Taking you to trial would have forced them to risk exposing themselves for the same exact fraudulant activities they accused you of.

Of course, I would imagine your due to your relationship with Michael Rood, you already know this.

This is what I mean by internet conspiracy theories. I have never met or spoken to Michael Rood in my life. I have never even exchanged email with the man.

[Abigail]

No, we got the authority to establish a Beit Din from the Torah (not me):

Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates,

which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes:

and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

(Deut. 16:18 KJV)

The Beit Din is a voting body.

Sure, so you picked three friends who may or may not even be Jewish and they appointed you as a Rabbi over a school you started. Yup, that's perfectly credible. And what, precisely, qualified your friends to be elders, other than the fact that you wanted it to be so?

Then you used your fake ordination to put people under laws that even God never put people under. Yup, this is very fitting for about The Way. VPW got his papermill doctorate, manipulated his ordination, set up a church with a school, and put people under laws that even God never put them under.

I guess a cult is a cult is a cult is a cult. The m.o. is the same.