What do you mean... "Church"?

[James Trimm]

There has been a great deal of confusion over the years over what the "church" is. Some have taught that the Church is a new entity which replaces Israel. Others have taught that the Church is a new body which is totally independent of Israel. Still others have taught that the Church and Israel are two different but overlapping entities. With all of the misconceptions about the identity of the "Church" the time has come to set the story straight and reveal what the "Church" really is.

The English word "Church" comes originally from the Old English word KIRKE. The Old English word KIRKE was the word the Anglo-Saxons used to refer to their pagan places of worship. When they became Christianized the Anglo-Saxons continued to call their places of worship KIRKES and as the language evolved "Churches". You may have

heard that the word "Church" originally referred to the people and later came to refer to the building. This is not true. The word "Church" originally referred to the building and later came to refer to the people. Moreover the word "church" is of pagan origin

Now if you look up the English word "Church" in Webster's dictionary you will find the following meanings:

1. a building set apart or consecrated for public worship, esp. one

for Christian worship.

2. All Christians as a whole.

3. A denomination of Christians.

In short a "church" is either a building or a group of Christians.

Now wherever we see the English word "church" in an English Bible we would expect the underlying Greek word would be a Greek word that also means "a group of Christians". Since the English uses such a technical theological term one would expect that the Greek has also used a technical theological term. But the reality is that the Greek word that appears wherever the English has "church" is not a technical theological term and DOES NOT mean "a group of Christians" at all. That’s right, a technical theological term of pagan origin meaning "a group of Christians" has been inserted in your English Bible despite the fact that the corresponding Greek word is not a technical theological term and does not mean the same thing as the word "Church".

The Greek word that appears where our English Bible's have "church" is EKKLESIA. EKKLESIA is just the Greek word for "assembly". Although it comes from a root meaning "to call out" there is no special theological significance to this word. In fact this is the same Greek word which was used for "assembly" by the classical Pagan Greek writers. Inscriptions in ancient Greek auditoriums where pagan ritual dramas were performed by the Bachus cult have the audience section inscribed with the sign "EKKLESIA". This same Greek word EKKLESIA is used throughout the Greek Septuagint translation of the Tanak as the word for "assembly". There are also many places where the Greek word EKKLESIA appears in the NT but which the KJV and other translators did NOT translate the word as "church". This same Greek word is even used in Acts 19:32-41 to describe an unruly mob, yet here the translators suddenly translate

the word as "assembly" rather than "church".

There is therefore no such thing as the "church" because the Greek word translated "church" does not mean "church" at all but "assembly".

Now there are some who claim that the "Church" was a new entity born in Acts 2 at Pentecost of 32 C.E. . However if we examine the events of Acts 2 we find that at that event persons were "added to" the "church" (Acts 2:47) which means that the "church" had to have already existed at that time. If we turn to Acts 7:38 we see that it speaks of Moses as "he that was in the church in the wilderness". Certainly this "church" could not have been a new "New Testament" entity.

Now while the term "church" is a mistranslation for a word simply meaning "assembly", there is an entity which is commonly referred to as "The Assembly" in the New Testament. Let us examine the Scriptures and determine what the true identity of this "Assembly" is.

To begin with we must understand that this Assembly is also known as the "Body of Messiah" as we read:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,

the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the

preeminence."

(Col. 1:18 - KJV)

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head

over all things to the church,

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

(Eph. 1:22-23 - KJV)

Now one may ask what "Assembly" is the allegorical Messiah? To find the answer to that question lets look at Matthew 2:14-15:

"When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and

departed into Egypt:

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled

which was spoken of the Lord

by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. "

(Matthew 2:14-15 - KJV)

Now here Matthew is citing a prophecy in Hosea 11:1 and applying it to Messiah. Now let us go back and look at this prophecy in Hosea 11:1 in context:

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him,

and called my son out of Egypt."

(Hosea 11:1 - KJV)

Here Hosea is referring to Israel as the son who is called out of Egypt. This points us back to a passage in the Torah:

"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go,

behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."

(Ex. 4:22-23 - KJV)

From these two passages we learn that Israel is the firstborn son of Elohim who is called out of Egypt. However in Matthew it is Yeshua the Messiah who is called up out of Egypt and in Col. 1:18 Messiah is the "firstborn". Moreover Hebrews speaks of the "church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23 - KJV).

Thus Israel is allegorically equivalent to the Messiah. There are some very important reasons for this allegorical relationship:

* Both are the "firstborn Son of Elohim".

* Both made a major impact on the world.

* Both were born through a biological miracle on their mother's womb.

* Both were taken into Egypt to save their lives.

* Both were called up out of Egypt.

* Both were despised and rejected by men.

* Rome attempted to destroy them both.

* Both are resurrected.

Thus Israel is the allegorical "Body of Messiah". Moreover in the Tanak, Israel is commonly called "The Assembly of Israel" and wherever the phrase "The Assembly of Israel" appears in the Tanak the Greek LXX has "EKKLESIA of Israel".

The so-called "church" which is the "Body of Messiah" is in reality "the Assembly of Israel". Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, but to be Messiah of the old one. Wherever your English New Testament refers to a "church" (i.e. a group of Christians) the Greek has "EKKLESIA a term which commonly refers to the "Assembly of Israel". The "Church" as most Christians have understood it never existed. All of the passage people have thought were talking about the "Church" were actually talking about the Assembly of Israel, not Christianity, but the Nazarene sect of Judaism.

[year2027]

God frist

thanks James Trimm

Main Entry: church

Pronunciation: \ˈchərch\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Late Greek kyriakon, from Greek, neuter of kyriakos of the lord, from kyrios lord, master; akin to Sanskrit śūra hero, warrior

Date: before 12th century

1 : a building for public and especially Christian worship

2 : the clergy or officialdom of a religious body

3 often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as a : the whole body of Christians b : denomination <the Presbyterian church> c : congregation

4 : a public divine worship <goes to church every Sunday>

5 : the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible career>

but does not mean

Main Entry: cult

Pronunciation: \ˈkəlt\

Function: noun

Usage: often attributive

Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel

Date: 1617

1 : formal religious veneration : worship

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

or this could be better work

Main Entry: sect

Pronunciation: \ˈsekt\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English secte, from Anglo-French & Late Latin & Latin; Anglo-French, group, faction, from Late Latin secta organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari to pursue, frequentative of sequi to follow — more at sue

Date: 14th century

1 a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b : a religious denomination

2 archaic : sex 1 <so is all her sect — Shakespeare>

3 a : a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b : party c : faction

so we have three words mean the same thing

church/cult/sect

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited June 3, 2010 by year2027

[teachmevp]

Dale B. Martin teaches some cool stuff on that subject, his course is a free down load from Yale, do not know the link, but you will find it. Check out Christine Hayes, another free down loud from Yale, she teaches a great course on the Old Testamant.

[waysider]

Why does this thread give me deja vu of PFAL?

[cman]

maybe cause of the sales pitch or elitism or tithe

as if we didn't know about ekklesia

here's another fine group that separates itself from others

using that Greek word

The so-called "church" which is the "Body of Messiah" is in reality "the Assembly of Israel".

just think how great it would be to have that name tag!

http://wnaesite.ning.com/

[WordWolf]

(snip)

"The English word "Church" comes originally from the Old English word KIRKE. The Old English word KIRKE was the word the Anglo-Saxons used to refer to their pagan places of worship. When they became Christianized the Anglo-Saxons continued to call their places of worship KIRKES and as the language evolved "Churches"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church

" The English language word "church" is from the Old English word cirice, derived from West Germanic *kirika, which in turn comes from the Greek κυριακή kuriakē, meaning "of the Lord" (possessive form of κύριος kurios "ruler, lord"). Kuriakē in the sense of "church" is most likely a shortening of κυριακὴ οἰκία kuriakē oikia ("house of the Lord") or ἐκκλησία κυριακή ekklēsia kuriakē ("congregation of the Lord").[2] Christian churches were sometimes called κυριακόν kuriakon (adjective meaning "of the Lord") in Greek starting in the 4th century, but ekklēsia and βασιλική basilikē were more common.[3]

The Greek word ekklēsia, literally "assembly, congregation, council", is the traditional term referring to the Christian Church."

[(Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary agrees with the wikipedia explanation.)

Anybody could open a collegiate dictionary and check this-as I did- or look this up online-as I did.

It's an easy mistake to fix.]]

James Trimm:

"You may have

heard that the word "Church" originally referred to the people and later came to refer to the building. This is not true. The word "Church" originally referred to the building and later came to refer to the people. Moreover the word "church" is of pagan origin."

["Assembly" and "congregation" don't refer to a building, and the early Christians didn't HAVE

buildings to work from. It HAD TO refer to the people and later to the building.

Moreover, as we just saw, the word "church" is NOT of pagan origin.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/church

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/church

Look it up yourselves.]

James Trimm:

"Now if you look up the English word "Church" in Webster's dictionary you will find the following meanings:"

[Come on-you're supposedly a sufficiently-educated man. Saying something is in "Webster's Dictionary"

gives no real information-that name is in the public domain, which means that you or I could bang out a

horribly bad dictionary, call it "Webster's Dictionary", and sell it to the public.

That's why I quote the Merriam-Webster, which IS copyrighted- which means there's only 1 Merriam-Webster.

Finding something in "Webster's Dictionary" is no guarantee it was even researched.

There's no quality control for that term.]

James Trimm:

"1. a building set apart or consecrated for public worship, esp. one

for Christian worship.

2. All Christians as a whole.

3. A denomination of Christians.

In short a "church" is either a building or a group of Christians."

[in short, that's what it means in plain English, regardless of what it meant

centuries ago or where it was derived.]

James Trimm:

"Now wherever we see the English word "church" in an English Bible we would expect the underlying Greek word would be a Greek word that also means "a group of Christians". Since the English uses such a technical theological term one would expect that the Greek has also used a technical theological term. But the reality is that the Greek word that appears wherever the English has "church" is not a technical theological term and DOES NOT mean "a group of Christians" at all. That’s right, a technical theological term of pagan origin meaning "a group of Christians" has been inserted in your English Bible despite the fact that the corresponding Greek word is not a technical theological term and does not mean the same thing as the word "Church".

The Greek word that appears where our English Bible's have "church" is EKKLESIA. EKKLESIA is just the Greek word for "assembly". Although it comes from a root meaning "to call out" there is no special theological significance to this word. In fact this is the same Greek word which was used for "assembly" by the classical Pagan Greek writers. Inscriptions in ancient Greek auditoriums where pagan ritual dramas were performed by the Bachus cult have the audience section inscribed with the sign "EKKLESIA". This same Greek word EKKLESIA is used throughout the Greek Septuagint translation of the Tanak as the word for "assembly". There are also many places where the Greek word EKKLESIA appears in the NT but which the KJV and other translators did NOT translate the word as "church". This same Greek word is even used in Acts 19:32-41 to describe an unruly mob, yet here the translators suddenly translate

the word as "assembly" rather than "church"."

[Glad you could join the rest of us. We discussed this on and off through the years, the last of those

times in 2003.

We discussed it in the "Actual Errors in pfal" thread as well as other places.]

James Trimm:

"There is therefore no such thing as the "church" because the Greek word translated "church" does not mean "church" at all but "assembly".

[Don't be so silly! When the Christians assemble together as Christians, they are an

assembly of Christians, a Christian congregation, a Christian CHURCH.

The word "church" carries a current meaning that "ekklesia" didn't carry by itself

2000 years ago.

And "meat and drink" used to mean "solid food and a beverage" (which would include broccoli and spring water)

but NOW means "cooked edible animal flesh and an alcoholic beverage" (Which would NOT include broccoli and spring water.)

LIVING languages change in meaning over time.]

James Trimm:

"Now there are some who claim that the "Church" was a new entity born in Acts 2 at Pentecost of 32 C.E. . However if we examine the events of Acts 2 we find that at that event persons were "added to" the "church" (Acts 2:47) which means that the "church" had to have already existed at that time."

[it obviously did. Reading the Bible makes it obvious who was in "the Christian church" before the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

Read Acts 1!]

Acts 1:15-22.(NASB)

" 15At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,

16"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

17"For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."

18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20"For it is written in the book of Psalms,

'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,

AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT';

and,

'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'

21"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--

22beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us--one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

Can it be any simpler? About 120 people ASSEMBLED there as a CONGREGATION.

They were the first people in the CHRISTIAN CHURCH-those who were ready on the day

of Pentecost, the official beginning of the Christian Church, when about 2000 more were

added to about 120.]

James Trimm:

"If we turn to Acts 7:38 we see that it speaks of Moses as "he that was in the church in the wilderness". Certainly this "church" could not have been a new "New Testament" entity."

Acts 7:34-39 (NASB)

34'I HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN THE OPPRESSION OF MY PEOPLE IN EGYPT AND HAVE HEARD THEIR GROANS, AND I HAVE COME DOWN TO RESCUE THEM; COME NOW, AND I WILL SEND YOU TO EGYPT.'

35"This Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO MADE YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?' is the one whom God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the angel who appeared to him in the thorn bush.

36"This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness for forty years.

37"This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, 'GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN.'

38"This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

39"Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but repudiated him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt,

==============

[Looks like, if one is not obsessed with the KJV and reads more CONSISTENT versions

with their origins in the 20th century textual discoveries and not those extant in 1611,

one doesn't see "church" when "congregation" was more appropriate.

Israel assembled as a congregation lots of times.

So did every other group at that time.]

James Trimm:

"Now while the term "church" is a mistranslation for a word simply meaning "assembly","

[it was a corrected error when referring to Israel-so long as you're not forced to

only use the King James Version. The early Christian congregation assembled

as the church, so this is correct in referring to them as such.]

James Trimm:

"there is an entity which is commonly referred to as "The Assembly" in the New Testament. Let us examine the Scriptures and determine what the true identity of this "Assembly" is.

To begin with we must understand that this Assembly is also known as the "Body of Messiah" as we read:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,

the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the

preeminence."

(Col. 1:18 - KJV)"

[Right. And in Colossians 1:2, we see more about them.]

Colossians 1:2 (NASB)

2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

James Trimm:

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head

over all things to the church,

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

(Eph. 1:22-23 - KJV)"

{Ephesians 1:1 (NASB)

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

James Trimm:

"Now one may ask what "Assembly" is the allegorical Messiah?"

[The faithful brethren in Christ, the witnesses of his resurrection, the holy ones ("saints").

That's what the same chapters called them. They are obviously the early Christians.

They certainly weren't anyone else- who else would be considered "the witnesses of his resurrection"

if everyone except early Christians didn't think Jesus was resurrected?]

James Trimm:

"To find the answer to that question lets look at Matthew 2:14-15:

"When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and

departed into Egypt:

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled

which was spoken of the Lord

by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. "

(Matthew 2:14-15 - KJV)

Now here Matthew is citing a prophecy in Hosea 11:1 and applying it to Messiah. Now let us go back and look at this prophecy in Hosea 11:1 in context:

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him,

and called my son out of Egypt."

(Hosea 11:1 - KJV)

Here Hosea is referring to Israel as the son who is called out of Egypt. This points us back to a passage in the Torah:

"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go,

behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."

(Ex. 4:22-23 - KJV)

From these two passages we learn that Israel is the firstborn son of Elohim who is called out of Egypt. However in Matthew it is Yeshua the Messiah who is called up out of Egypt and in Col. 1:18 Messiah is the "firstborn"."

[Correct. These are some of many verses where there was a double fulfillment.

Another was when Jeremiah wrote about the children dead in Rama,

which was fulfilled in Jeremiah's lifetime and AGAIN when Herod slew the innocents

in an attempt to kill the coming King (Jesus.)]

James Trimm:

"Moreover Hebrews speaks of the "church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23 - KJV)."

Hebrews 12:23-24 (NASB)

23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

[That's still obviously the Christians.]

James Trimm:

"Thus Israel is allegorically equivalent to the Messiah. There are some very important reasons for this allegorical relationship:

* Both are the "firstborn Son of Elohim".

* Both made a major impact on the world.

* Both were born through a biological miracle on their mother's womb.

* Both were taken into Egypt to save their lives.

* Both were called up out of Egypt.

* Both were despised and rejected by men.

* Rome attempted to destroy them both.

* Both are resurrected."

[You have suddenly stopped quoting the Bible, failing to support this list-probably because part of this list is contrived,

and is the word of man and not in the Bible.]

James Trimm:

"Thus Israel is the allegorical "Body of Messiah". Moreover in the Tanak, Israel is commonly called "The Assembly of Israel" and wherever the phrase "The Assembly of Israel" appears in the Tanak the Greek LXX has "EKKLESIA of Israel".

The so-called "church" which is the "Body of Messiah" is in reality "the Assembly of Israel". Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, but to be Messiah of the old one. Wherever your English New Testament refers to a "church" (i.e. a group of Christians) the Greek has "EKKLESIA a term which commonly refers to the "Assembly of Israel". The "Church" as most Christians have understood it never existed. All of the passage people have thought were talking about the "Church" were actually talking about the Assembly of Israel, not Christianity, but the Nazarene sect of Judaism."

[Jesus came to save the world. He knew full well that he would be forsaken

by Israel- he spoke the parable about the party where the original guests refused

to attend, and the rolls were opened to EVERYONE.

Israel obviously assembled as a congregation.

That no more makes them the same "ekklesia" as the early Christians

then the "ekklesia" that was the mob in Ephesus was the same ekklesia was the same "ekklesia" as the early Christians.

The Christian church began as Jesus began to preach, and formally began on Pentecost.

Even a fool knows people assembled to hear Jesus preach- some of those people believed on him.

About 120 of them met in Acts 1 in Jerusalem after Jesus' ascension to the right hand of God.

That's "the Church" as most Christians have understood it, and a simple reading of the chapters

makes that plainly obvious.

Unless one is determined to enforce another meaning and discard the most straightforward one.]

[Edited to fix some punctuation-I did not add, delete, or change a single word.]

Edited June 3, 2010 by WordWolf

[geisha779]

Why does this thread give me deja vu of PFAL?

Just Google James Trimm with the word "cult" ....and it will come to you...

Edited June 4, 2010 by geisha779

[year2027]

God first

thanks Geisha779

I looked and here I found

The purpose of this page is to expose the truth about James Trimm (also known as James S. Trimm, James Scott Trimm, falsely called Dr. James Trimm, Dr. James S. Trimm and Dr. James Scott Trimm. I say falsely because he does not have any degree.), President of SANJ, the Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism, and also the “Nasi” of the Nazarene Beit Din. He was originally investigated as a result of his slander against another woman, in the early summer of 2000; all of which is documented under the Chronology of Initial Events section. As a result of important information that was brought to light, it was obvious that slander was not the only unrighteous act of James Trimm. James Trimm was also guilty of lying, deceiving, theft, plagiarism, false teaching, division,... I could not, in good conscience, not say anything and let this unrighteousness go unchecked, even if it meant that I became another target of his slander. James Trimm's reaction was indeed to attack, instead of repent. He has increased his unrighteousness by publishing the Hebraic Roots Version NT, listing James S.Trimm as translator. Yet this Hebraic Roots Bible - HRV is not a translation, but a plagiarism with his agenda added.

James Trimm was given numerous opportunities to turn and return, instead he has chosen the path of Faraoh and repeatedly hardened his heart. To make matters worse, James Trimm has set himself up as a teacher and further spread his unrighteousness, even making himself out to be a prophet of this sect that he has created, now claiming himself and his followers to be the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations. In my opinion, it is no longer a self made sect, but has now become a cult, which I had long suspected was the path he had taken. The man is not only a danger to those he attacks, but to the larger audience of the net and those that he infects, which is the reason for this section of my site.

Thank you, Kathryn Kern, research@lebtahor.com

HRV Expository Page

Since James has refused refunds to those requesting them, due to his misrepresentation of his abilities and his plagiarism, I have provided avenues for the victims to seek restitution. When individuals have requested refunds, Trimm has taken to replying that the purchases were donations and therefore he is under no obligation to send anything. Please see the Plagiarism Page for further information and details. I suggest filing with both, since they are two different agencies.

United States Postal Inspector, Randy Cook at one of the following , brcook@uspis.gov , (817)317-3460, P.O. Box 162929, Keller, TX 76161-2929 Mailing out the HRV, based on false advertising qualifies as mail fraud.

Greg Abbott, Attorney General of Texas, P.O. Box 12548, Austin, TX 78711

Nazarene Fraud Victims Forum http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nazarene_fraud_victims/messages/

Mr. Cohen, of New Mexico, is specifically seeking anyone from NM that has been defrauded. You may contact him at the following email address: torahmoment@yahoo.com

http://www.lebtahor.com/

And this because I do want to judge by one

Doctor James Trimm's "Jewish" School

& International Beit Din

Revelation 3:8 -11

"I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

James Trimm's doctorate has been used to promote his website "Yeshiva" or simply put, a Jewish Rabbinical School. He stated in an internet email, and on his website that, "Beit Netzarim Nazarene Yeshiva functions under the approbation of the International Nazarene Beit Din."

James Trimm set up the International Nazarene Beit Din, with himself and a few others on the board, and then authorized himself to form the school called, Beit Netzarim Yeshiva, although he isn't Jewish.

The "International Beit Din," then, is the so-called "Jewish authority" formed and headed by James. That means he gets his authority from, makes decisions for and is basically answerable to, himself.

James Trimm expounds in his article, Nazarene Halachic Authority, explaining the Beit Din's importance for advancing his authority/control and teaching,

"....Halachic authority is the authority to make halachic determinations interpreting the Torah forbidding and permitting activities based on these interpretations, and resolving matters between fellow believers...later a council of Elders were appointed (Ex. 18:13-26; Dt. 1:9-18) These Elders showed men "the way wherein they must walk" (i.e. Halacha) (Ex. 18:20) Their judgements were regarded as the judgement of G-d himself (Dt. 1:17)....Their Halachic authority became termed "the key of the House of David" (Is. 22:21-22)...The Nazarene Halachic authority, that is the Nazarene Sanhedrin, is documented in Acts 15. Here we are shown a Halachic court which has worldwide authority

...Nazarenes must also have our own unique halachic authority apart from that of Rabbinic Judaism....reconstructing the ancient sect of Nazarene Judaism we must recognize that Rabbinic/Pharisaic Halacha is not the only "authentic" Judaism...Although we must examine what these sages, as well as the Qumran writers, have written. We must examine their conclusions in light of ancient Jewish methods of interpreting the Scriptures to determine if their rulings constitute a valid Nazarene position on any given issue." [spelling as seen]

(2002) http://www.nazarene.net/beitdin/trimm.htm

www.orthodoxhebrew.org

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited June 4, 2010 by year2027

[soul searcher]

Just Google James Trimm with the word "cult" ....and it will come to you...

Interesting...while doing what you suggested I learned that there are surviving members of the Branch Davidian cult, including some offshoot factions.

[James Trimm]

Let me begin by expressing my disapointment that some one has stooped to reposting slander and libel about me here. I should not have to respond, but the following is my detailed and documented proof that this is all slaneer and lible:

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8857000/8857710/1/print/sl2.pdf

also as for the false claims of copyright infringement:

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8850000/8850159/1/print/jstrimm3.pdf

BTW ... How does this impact the accuracy of the facts or argument I presented in my post?

[year2027]

God first

thanks James Trimm

James I did not slander you but I wrote as I found it others see for them self and made a fare debate about your words

i do know if they are wrong or right

because I am not to join your church means nothing

that what found on a fast search

I do judge anyone but me

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[James Trimm]

God first

thanks James Trimm

James I did not slander you but I wrote as I found it others see for them self and made a fare debate about your words

i do know if they are wrong or right

because I am not to join your church means nothing

that what found on a fast search

I do judge anyone but me

with love and a holy kiss Roy

There is no difference legally between libel/slander and repeating lible/slander you have read/heard somewhere else.

Edited June 4, 2010 by James Trimm

[Mark Sanguinetti]

The problem with cults or cultish attitude is when people want to elevate their so called authority in the church above christian service. This is the yardstick by which to judge. When people post here do they have a provide education service oriented mind set? Or are they here to start a new church or whatever you want to call it, with them as the leader or head? If it is the latter, this is a cult mind set. And I add, this goes completely against the example and teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul who started off as a well read, but political power and authority hungry pharisee. To latter completely change to a service oriented apostle and teacher while desiring no hierarchical authority

Edited June 4, 2010 by Mark Sanguinetti

[Gen-2]

There is no difference legally between libel/slander and repeating lible/slander you have read/heard somewhere else.

There's that "Cult" mentality. Besides your rebuttals mostly show you disagree, not that others are actually wrong. Most of what they basically accuse you of is being lazy, apt to take shortcuts - unwilling to respond to questions, an misreprestenting yourself as something more of a scholar then you are.

So far, at GreaseSpot, your actions support their claims. The lazy part especially, with all the cut and paste stuff. God only knows if it's your work or borrowed. But a lot of it is wrong, so I think you'd be best off claiming you copied it. I'm going to bet right now, and offhand, that I know Hebrew better then you do. I draw this conclusion from mistakes you make (plus there's the fact that I know Hebrew and Yiddish quite well). I could prove that out on a conference call, if you want to do that.

It would seem though, that you don't want to be a Christian, and that you consider them the enemy, your enemy. You've made it clear that you are of the sect of the Messiah's Nazarene Jews or something and that Christians are soup sandwiches, Jews are soup sandwiches, and you have the truth. You, and only those who believe exactly as you say (or cut & Paste), are right - naturally, everyone else has it wrong, and persecutes you unjustly.

It's a tired song. If you were the only one alive with the truth, I think people would stay away from you. First, you too defensive to attract anything but your own choir, and second - you seem to respond to people with threats, whines or the ULTIMATE,... well,... who cares (or words to thet effect).

You'd be best off to leave here with your dignity intact soon, or develop a new attitude, unless you live for heartache. You never answered my questions, when I've asked them, and it seems that if you get too many unfavorable comments (THAT MEANS - everyone didn't agree with you), you abandon your own thread rather than answer. This church thread is just you wttempt to carry on your "Dispensing with Dispensationalism" which you apparently 'dispensed' with, yet you're right back in the saddle here in this thread - answering nothing and cutting and pasting.

It's interesting to see that you took the time to threaten Roy,.....

Right from the heart, that it was.... one of your first heartfelt remarks that you actually took the time to write personally.

I hope the EVENT, made you proud...!!?

Nothing to cut and paste for him.........?

[James Trimm]

First off I did not threaten anyone. I simply stated my disapointment that libel was being posted, and when a poster said that they were only reposting what they read elsewhere, I pointed out that that is still libel.

As for "lazy"... are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how many hours a week I work? I have written over 20 books, am currently working on three books, I also have a weekly radio show, weekly Sabbath teachings both of which must be prepared for each week. I have also written several free lessons for the free Davar Bible School Bible Correspondence course and currently teach a Tanak Survey 1A class. And on top of that I have written over 400 teaching blogs in the last two years (http://www.nazarenespace.com). On top of all of that I care for my disabled wife, and play Mr. Mom to five children, one of whom is legally blind. When I cut and paste, I am cutting and pasting from my own books, blogs etc. I really can't deal with being called "lazy".

There's that "Cult" mentality. Besides your rebuttals mostly show you disagree, not that others are actually wrong. Most of what they basically accuse you of is being lazy, apt to take shortcuts - unwilling to respond to questions, an misreprestenting yourself as something more of a scholar then you are.

So far, at GreaseSpot, your actions support their claims. The lazy part especially, with all the cut and paste stuff. God only knows if it's your work or borrowed. But a lot of it is wrong, so I think you'd be best off claiming you copied it. I'm going to bet right now, and offhand, that I know Hebrew better then you do. I draw this conclusion from mistakes you make (plus there's the fact that I know Hebrew and Yiddish quite well). I could prove that out on a conference call, if you want to do that.

It would seem though, that you don't want to be a Christian, and that you consider them the enemy, your enemy. You've made it clear that you are of the sect of the Messiah's Nazarene Jews or something and that Christians are soup sandwiches, Jews are soup sandwiches, and you have the truth. You, and only those who believe exactly as you say (or cut & Paste), are right - naturally, everyone else has it wrong, and persecutes you unjustly.

It's a tired song. If you were the only one alive with the truth, I think people would stay away from you. First, you too defensive to attract anything but your own choir, and second - you seem to respond to people with threats, whines or the ULTIMATE,... well,... who cares (or words to thet effect).

You'd be best off to leave here with your dignity intact soon, or develop a new attitude, unless you live for heartache. You never answered my questions, when I've asked them, and it seems that if you get too many unfavorable comments (THAT MEANS - everyone didn't agree with you), you abandon your own thread rather than answer. This church thread is just you wttempt to carry on your "Dispensing with Dispensationalism" which you apparently 'dispensed' with, yet you're right back in the saddle here in this thread - answering nothing and cutting and pasting.

It's interesting to see that you took the time to threaten Roy,.....

Right from the heart, that it was.... one of your first heartfelt remarks that you actually took the time to write personally.

I hope the EVENT, made you proud...!!?

Nothing to cut and paste for him.........?

[Gen-2]

First off I did not threaten anyone. I simply stated my disapointment that libel was being posted, and when a poster said that they were only reposting what they read elsewhere, I pointed out that that is still libel.

As for "lazy"... are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how many hours a week I work? I have written over 20 books, am currently working on three books, I also have a weekly radio show, weekly Sabbath teachings both of which must be prepared for each week. I have also written several free lessons for the free Davar Bible School Bible Correspondence course and currently teach a Tanak Survey 1A class. And on top of that I have written over 400 teaching blogs in the last two years (http://www.nazarenespace.com). On top of all of that I care for my disabled wife, and play Mr. Mom to five children, one of whom is legally blind. When I cut and paste, I am cutting and pasting from my own books, blogs etc. I really can't deal with being called "lazy".

Because Lazy people like you ignore questions, you've done it again. As for the part I wrote about you being all defensive, well you've proved that with this answer. As to what you write,... You seem to be saying that you write so much at other places But here at GSC, we're not worth anything original, easier to cut and paste yesterday/yesteryear's writing here......

You've also ignored a lot of other people's questions. You could go back and look, but I assure you - it's the truth.

As to am I now sufficiently impressed whith how much you do elsewhere? .......lol Oh,... of course I am. I'm in Awe of your Magnificent accomplishments and the care you take,.... with people you care about.

I just guess we don't rate that here - do we?

[Gen-2]

I could set up a podcast. I have a Skype account, and an account at Podbean.com. We could record it, and post it here at GreaseSpot. I know a Rabbi in Haifa that has an excellent command of both Hebrew and Aramaic. We could check out your translation skills. I also called a friend of my Mom's at the British Museum. He'd be willing to sit in on a Podcast as well. He's also fluent in both Biblical Hebrew and three dialects of Aramaic.

It's a genuine offer here.

You could have one other person you choose as well. I can manage up to five on a conference call with Podbean.

I'd really like to see what you do know, and see what you know On-the-Spot. In the portions of the interview that can be done in Hebrew, I can manage to participate in myself. I want to see if you really know this stuff on your own,... in real time. It would only take an Hour and I could get it all set up for the fifteenth of this month, a Sunday.

Paw, would you mind if we put the podcast on GSC if we do it?

James, I'll even pay you for the interview, if that's a stumblingblock, But we'll do as much as possible in Aramaic or Hebrew, After all you have the PhD in this,... should be no problem and I have plenty of money.

It could be a lot of fun, and I am sooooooooo curious to see what you really know. It would be a magnificent opportunity to show the world that you are THE pre-eminent translator of all things Hebrew and Aramaic, and add great weight to you Bible translation credentials. it would stop the mouths of all your critics. And it would be fun!!!

Edit,... that would be the 13th. I hadn't flipped the page from May to June on the desk Blotter calander,... lol, silly me.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Gen-2

[waysider]

I speak Pig-Latin. And my services are eefray.

(ya gets whatcha pays for.)

Edited June 5, 2010 by waysider

[year2027]

God first

thanks James Trimm

I am "lazy" but so is everybody other

you are no different

you a fool and I am a Fool the bible tells us we are fools

did I libel/slander no because would be libel/praise slander/praise I told the way I found

Malice did not come until you attack me

But maybe you misunderstood

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited June 5, 2010 by year2027

[Gen-2]

I speak Pig-Latin. And my services are eefray.

(ya gets whatcha pays for.)

Awwwwwwwwww (((((Hugs)))))

{also free}

[TrustAndObey]

Is it just me, or is everyone gearing up for a lynching here?

Where's the love! Oh wait.. that only works when you're in debt..

James,

If I were you, I'd stop cutting and pasting. I realize you're a busy guy, but.. Posting on a forum et al, it takes time and it's about building relationships. So if you ain't got the time to treat people with respect as people and answer their questions one on one but instead treat this place as an informal posting ground, well, you're going to find yourself bum rushed!

That's the best I can do while I'm in this no debt situation TWI required me to be in...

[Mark Sanguinetti]

I am just trying to get James to be more Christ like on this forum and less like a pharisee. You know those pharisees from the first century were pretty smart. And I betcha at least some of them were smart enough to know Greek as a second language also.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Mark Sanguinetti

[Gen-2]

It was all Greek to them Mark.

<grin>

[geisha779]

GSC is one of those sites that tells the other side of the story...I would hope that people would at least read here and consider before buying into ANY TWI theology. I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at what others have to say when someone claims to be a teacher of the scriptures or a scholar....hey, wish I had listened about VP.

If you google James Trimm and the word "false" you get a whole different crop of sites warning about him. Doesn't hurt to take a look....just like it doesn't hurt to look at this site.

Just saying.....I would direct someone to GSC to consider the testimony here....

-------------------------------------------

Soul Searcher,

Yeah, I saw that too and got caught up in reading about them!!

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Actually, doing a Yahoo search, almost sounds Jewish to me. One only needs to do a search by the name of James Trimm and this is the link that currently comes up on page 1, link number 2.

http://www.lebtahor.com/truth/trimm/plagiarisms/HRVAveryPaper.htm