Ask one guy a question about a bible verse and he'll answer you one way, complete with scholarly work, ask another and , of course, same story. They can all tell you why the other guy is wrong, and why they're right, and they all belive they're right. You are NO different, no matter who you are. This porrige is too Hot, This porrige is roo Cold, This porrige is just Right. Everyone knows how they like their own porrige and you can use the scriptures to find a way to support almost any belief, or system of beliefs. The use of foreign words conveys intellect, and intellect is always right. It's smarter than you are...! We should all be impressed, after all, we were when Doctor W or LCM used them.
It's all Vanity.
Cut and Paste your heart away, after all, the bigger your post is, the more cerebral you look. I can see how most of your posting goes now. It's not just about how right you are, but how wrong others are. I've heard all that before. It'a amazing how all the people that think they're "something", all do the same thing.
I have to go get in line to get a cheeseburger now. and that's more important than finishing this.
Ask one guy a question about a bible verse and he'll answer you one way, complete with scholarly work, ask another and , of course, same story. They can all tell you why the other guy is wrong, and why they're right, and they all belive they're right. You are NO different, no matter who you are. This porrige is too Hot, This porrige is roo Cold, This porrige is just Right. Everyone knows how they like their own porrige and you can use the scriptures to find a way to support almost any belief, or system of beliefs. The use of foreign words conveys intellect, and intellect is always right. It's smarter than you are...! We should all be impressed, after all, we were when Doctor W or LCM used them.
It's all Vanity.
Cut and Paste your heart away, after all, the bigger your post is, the more cerebral you look. I can see how most of your posting goes now. It's not just about how right you are, but how wrong others are. I've heard all that before. It'a amazing how all the people that think they're "something", all do the same thing.
I have to go get in line to get a cheeseburger now. and that's more important than finishing this.
Do you really think a cheeseburger is more important that seeking to understand the Word of Yahweh?
If so then you eat your "food" and I will gladly eat mine...
Do you really think a cheeseburger is more important that seeking to understand the Word of Yahweh?
If so then you eat your "food" and I will gladly eat mine...
Hahaha,..... THE Word of God liveth and abideth forever, but the cheeseburger line only lasted for about 20 minutes!
Most of the stuff you're posting I've heard before, from other sources. I've heard it from both sides, actually from many sides, many points of view. If you follow thier careful explanations - they all seem to make sense, but no one really knows for sure. We will when we see God and are raised up, but today, everyone's just making thier best guess. That's why we have so many people believing different things.
If you want my attention, tell me how this is of pracctical use to me today. You're so jazzed up about all this Law stuff. You do some of the law, so you've said, although the lack of a Temple prevents you from doing all of it. You can't stone people, do any real major animal sacrifices... etc, so you teach. "Those who can't, teach." But what do you do with this big headful of knowledge? Do you earn a living off of the head knowledge? I guess you do, in which case you market your view. You sell Books, you advertise PayPal accounts to us for your lawyer,... So head knowledge is your life, I guess, but how to you get anything out of knowing something you can't use practically (except to debate other people and show how wrong they are...). I mean, where is the actual practical application in this. What is it you think I can do this afternoon, differently, ...?
Personally, I'm all about practical application. If there's no real practical use to something, I skirt it, as profitless, or perhaps, interesting, true and largely not required for day to day application. Apparently, I can be saved without it, do a lot of it out of common sense, and regularily see several who dedicate their lives to following it strictly, going without - because of some law.
How can I use (practically) this law tonight? What do you do with it that makes so much difference,... besides Cutting & pasting stuff from old work into this forum? How do you make it "alive" for you? Give me some recent examples where your knowledge has been indispensible. I'd say you' ve spent a lot of time writing this all out, but actually you wrote most of this stuff long ago and are just filling up several threads with long posts, and you always come back to this issue. It's beginnig to sound like a whine of "But, you're doing it all wrong!" and there are many beliefs here at GSC, so if one person has all the answers, it insinuates that those others (oh those tragic others) are bereft of answers, which only you (or someone just like you) can supply.
There are a lot of parallels to the Way International here,... a lot. I find that disturbing. This is a different time though....
Jeremiah 31
[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
[35] Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
[36] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Another misunderstanding of the Church/Israel relationship is known as "Church/Israel Dichotomy. Church/Israel dichotomy is the position held by Dispensational Premillinialists (called Dispensationalists). This teaching was first put forward by John Darby during the 19th Century. Church/Israel Dichotomy teaches that the Church and Israel are two totally different groups with no members in common. According to this teaching, when a member of Israel (a Jew) becomes a member of the Church (a Christian) he is no longer a member of Israel (a Jew). Church/Israel Dichotomy came about as a result of false Dispensationalist teachings. Dispenstationalism teaches that the history of man can broken down into various compartmentalized "ages" or "dispensations." One of these is called "The Age of Law", this "Age of Law" is said to have ended with the founding of the Church and the beginning of a "Church Age" in Acts chapter 2. During this "Church Age" Dispensationalists teach that the Old Testament Law does not apply. This "Church Age" of no Law will, they say, end with the start of the seven year Tribulation (Dan. 9:27). The Dispensationalists admit that the Law is in effect during the Tribulation, since the sacrifices and offerings are continued during this time (Dan. 9:27). As a result Dispensationalists invented a Pre-Trib Rapture (dealt with in another blog) to separate the Church Age from the Tribulation so that the Church is raptured away and Israel remains for the Tribulation. To make this theory work, Dispensationalists had to make the Church and Israel two totally separate groups, so that everyone was either raptured away as part of the Church, or remained behind as Israel to enter the Tribulation. Thus Church/Israel Dichotomy was invented.
One of the verses used by Church/Israel Dichotomists is 1Cor. 10:32, "Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the Church of God." (KJV) The Dichotomy Theologians argue that these must be three distinct groups, with no common members. The truth is that there is no indication of this, for example "signs, wonders and miracles" (2Cor. 12:12) are not three distinct sets with no common members. The famous phrase "Friends, Romans and countrymen" also contained common members.
Another text used by Dichotomists is Eph. 2:14-16. However in this text we see only the destruction of enmity, not the birth of dichotomy. Another verse used by Dichotomists is Col. 3:11 "...there is neither Greek nor Jew..." however, if we look at a parallel passage in Gal. 3:28 we also read "There is neither Jew nor Greek... neither male nor female..." Yet females continue to exist as a distinct group with differing obligations (see 1Tim. 2:12-14; Titus 2:3-5.) The true meaning of this text is that Jews and Gentiles are both saved in the same way (Acts. 15:11; Rom. 3:22; 10:12) and both can be immersed into the Body of Messiah (1Cor. 12:13).
Several N.T. passages make it clear that Jews and Gentiles still exist as distinguishable peoples among believers (1Cor. 12:13; Rom. 9:3-4; Rom. 3:1-2; Rev. 2:9; 3:9) In the Ketuvim Netzarim Jews are still a nation of Priests (1Pt. 1:1; 2:5, 9 = Is. 43:20-21; Deut. 7:6; 10:15; Ex. 19:5-6; Is. 61:6) moreover in Acts 15 and 21 is is clear that there are both Jews and gentile believers (Acts 15:19-20; 21:21-26) with different emissaries (Acts 9:15; Gal. 1:16; 2:7-9).
Apparently not only is there a Jew/Gentile distinction among believers, there is also a Church/Israel Dichotomists//non-Church/Israel Dichotomists distinction among believers. Can I use two forward slashes/division marks in a row? Just how deeply can we divide up the Body of Christ?
Ah, the good news - Paul asks is Christ divided, a rhetorical question, the obvious answer being no. Contrarywise, your stance in your book - if your excerpt is representative - is divisive in tone and spirit, IMO. You artificially set up either/or fallacies for argumentative purposes to promote your theology rather than engaging in honest pursuit of truth. For example, you say, "Dispensationalists teach that the Old Testament Law does not apply. This "Church Age" of no Law..." First, "Dispensationalists teach that the Old Testament Law does not apply." Then This "Old Testament Law does not apply" changes to "no law." No law? What about the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? No, we're not given that option. We either believe in the Old Testament law, or we have "no law." Either/or propositions have to include all possibilities to be valid. Your argument is fallacious; your consequent forfeiture of the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus being the reason your tone is so without grace and heavy handed.
Very few situations in life are either this or that. Not only must the two choices include all the possibilities, but also they must be mutually exclusive. Not everyone who believes one thing that the Church/Israel Dichotomists/Dispensational Premillinialists/Pre-Trib Rapture/no law group you have painted for us here believes EVERYTHING the Church/Israel Dichotomists/Dispensational Premillinialists/Pre-Trib Rapture/no law group believes that you should think you've won all these points in argument by some imagined preponderance of evidence.
You haven't given any of these points sufficient consideration, never mind all of them.
As to individual points, for the most part, you've offered off-handed (I know we are supposed to believe you have gazillions of hours of previous research), condescending remarks.
As to all of the points, you've set up your own me vs the Church/Israel Dichotomists/Dispensational Premillinialists/Pre-Trib Rapture/no law group dichotomy - not valid.
Whenever there seems to be only 2 choices look for a third.
It's always there, perhaps more.
In this particular case, an obvious (to me) alternative is that, once again,
God is tolerating artificial distinctions which matter to US, but not to HIM.
An old example was when God rejected King Saul from being king of Israel anymore,
and had David anointed as King. As far as God was concerned, David was king, period.
The people, however, were under the impression Saul was still king- which is why Saul
still sat on the throne after God rejected Saul as king. (Otherwise he would have had
to clean out his desk and leave the building at the end of the day, so to speak.)
In the case of the Christians after Pentecost, I can easily see them making distinctions
AMONG THEMSELVES as to who is from the Jews ("and still a Jew") and who is from the Gentiles
("and still a Gentile".) In the body of Christ, it's immaterial, there's neither Jew nor
Gentile- at least, it matters not to God. PEOPLE keep erecting artificial barriers amongst
themselves all through the history of the Christian church. In the book of Acts, mostly it
was "Jews" vs "Gentiles." After that, "of Paul", "of Cephas", and so on, mostly.
Nowadays, it's largely by denomination, although a lot of Christians have been using
specific doctrines as a personal litmus test as to who's a "real" Christian
(one who agrees with me) and who walks in darkness and ignorance (those who disagree with me).
============================
I Corinthians 1:10-13
10Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.
12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
=============================
Now, "no divisions" either meant "no divisions",
or "no divisions except that some of you are still Jews and some of you are still Gentiles."
=============================
I Corinthians 1:21-24.
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
==============================
Now Jews and Greeks(Gentiles) are mentioned here.
This means one of at least 2 things.
A) There's still a definite division between the Jewish believer in Christ and the "Greek"(Gentile)
believer in Christ, despite much being made of divisions being wrong only a few verses before.
If that's the case, God or His messengers are operating with incredibly short-and capricious-
attention spans. I can't put my faith in something where the rules change so radically
within the same chapter, yet both supposedly apply now.
B) The verse refers to those who were called from among Jews and "Greeks"(Gentiles)
who are now saved,
who ONCE would have viewed "Christ crucified" as a stumbling block or foolishness
(as a Jew or "Greek"/Gentile), but now is neither and views "Christ crucified"
as "Christ the power of God and Christ the wisdom of God."
I would think context has more to do with it than anything..
I have no doubt, God still sees male and female humans.. Still makes the distinction/division...
Context.. Some contexts, it doesn't matter to God. Other contexts I'm betting it does, even to God..
In my humble view, which can be wrong, so feel free to correct me, but:
Salvation was always available to all.. Divisions / Distinctions / Differences of sex and even nationality never was a factor despite what dispensationalists like to claim.
Who God picked to have His son, I am certain that gender distinction was important! lol
And in many ways, I think God purposely throughout scriptures picked the "underdog" such as the tiny nation Israel or the short little dude David that He might show his wondrous power. (As Paul stated, "In my weakness He is made strong")
And in many ways, I think God purposely throughout scriptures picked the "underdog" such as ...the short little dude David that He might show his wondrous power. (As Paul stated, "In my weakness He is made strong")
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Gen-2
Ask one guy a question about a bible verse and he'll answer you one way, complete with scholarly work, ask another and , of course, same story. They can all tell you why the other guy is wrong, and why they're right, and they all belive they're right. You are NO different, no matter who you are. This porrige is too Hot, This porrige is roo Cold, This porrige is just Right. Everyone knows how they like their own porrige and you can use the scriptures to find a way to support almost any belief, or system of beliefs. The use of foreign words conveys intellect, and intellect is always right. It's smarter than you are...! We should all be impressed, after all, we were when Doctor W or LCM used them.
It's all Vanity.
Cut and Paste your heart away, after all, the bigger your post is, the more cerebral you look. I can see how most of your posting goes now. It's not just about how right you are, but how wrong others are. I've heard all that before. It'a amazing how all the people that think they're "something", all do the same thing.
I have to go get in line to get a cheeseburger now. and that's more important than finishing this.
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James Trimm
Do you really think a cheeseburger is more important that seeking to understand the Word of Yahweh?
If so then you eat your "food" and I will gladly eat mine...
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Gen-2
Hahaha,..... THE Word of God liveth and abideth forever, but the cheeseburger line only lasted for about 20 minutes!
Most of the stuff you're posting I've heard before, from other sources. I've heard it from both sides, actually from many sides, many points of view. If you follow thier careful explanations - they all seem to make sense, but no one really knows for sure. We will when we see God and are raised up, but today, everyone's just making thier best guess. That's why we have so many people believing different things.
If you want my attention, tell me how this is of pracctical use to me today. You're so jazzed up about all this Law stuff. You do some of the law, so you've said, although the lack of a Temple prevents you from doing all of it. You can't stone people, do any real major animal sacrifices... etc, so you teach. "Those who can't, teach." But what do you do with this big headful of knowledge? Do you earn a living off of the head knowledge? I guess you do, in which case you market your view. You sell Books, you advertise PayPal accounts to us for your lawyer,... So head knowledge is your life, I guess, but how to you get anything out of knowing something you can't use practically (except to debate other people and show how wrong they are...). I mean, where is the actual practical application in this. What is it you think I can do this afternoon, differently, ...?
Personally, I'm all about practical application. If there's no real practical use to something, I skirt it, as profitless, or perhaps, interesting, true and largely not required for day to day application. Apparently, I can be saved without it, do a lot of it out of common sense, and regularily see several who dedicate their lives to following it strictly, going without - because of some law.
How can I use (practically) this law tonight? What do you do with it that makes so much difference,... besides Cutting & pasting stuff from old work into this forum? How do you make it "alive" for you? Give me some recent examples where your knowledge has been indispensible. I'd say you' ve spent a lot of time writing this all out, but actually you wrote most of this stuff long ago and are just filling up several threads with long posts, and you always come back to this issue. It's beginnig to sound like a whine of "But, you're doing it all wrong!" and there are many beliefs here at GSC, so if one person has all the answers, it insinuates that those others (oh those tragic others) are bereft of answers, which only you (or someone just like you) can supply.
There are a lot of parallels to the Way International here,... a lot. I find that disturbing. This is a different time though....
Jeremiah 31
[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
[35] Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
[36] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
...works for me
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Tom
Apparently not only is there a Jew/Gentile distinction among believers, there is also a Church/Israel Dichotomists//non-Church/Israel Dichotomists distinction among believers. Can I use two forward slashes/division marks in a row? Just how deeply can we divide up the Body of Christ?
Ah, the good news - Paul asks is Christ divided, a rhetorical question, the obvious answer being no. Contrarywise, your stance in your book - if your excerpt is representative - is divisive in tone and spirit, IMO. You artificially set up either/or fallacies for argumentative purposes to promote your theology rather than engaging in honest pursuit of truth. For example, you say, "Dispensationalists teach that the Old Testament Law does not apply. This "Church Age" of no Law..." First, "Dispensationalists teach that the Old Testament Law does not apply." Then This "Old Testament Law does not apply" changes to "no law." No law? What about the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? No, we're not given that option. We either believe in the Old Testament law, or we have "no law." Either/or propositions have to include all possibilities to be valid. Your argument is fallacious; your consequent forfeiture of the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus being the reason your tone is so without grace and heavy handed.
Very few situations in life are either this or that. Not only must the two choices include all the possibilities, but also they must be mutually exclusive. Not everyone who believes one thing that the Church/Israel Dichotomists/Dispensational Premillinialists/Pre-Trib Rapture/no law group you have painted for us here believes EVERYTHING the Church/Israel Dichotomists/Dispensational Premillinialists/Pre-Trib Rapture/no law group believes that you should think you've won all these points in argument by some imagined preponderance of evidence.
You haven't given any of these points sufficient consideration, never mind all of them.
As to individual points, for the most part, you've offered off-handed (I know we are supposed to believe you have gazillions of hours of previous research), condescending remarks.
As to all of the points, you've set up your own me vs the Church/Israel Dichotomists/Dispensational Premillinialists/Pre-Trib Rapture/no law group dichotomy - not valid.
Just trying to be honest, James.
Tom
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cman
I usually think a bit more in such constraints.
Not that thinking isn't happening already.....
Whenever there seems to be only 2 choices look for a third.
It's always there, perhaps more.
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WordWolf
In this particular case, an obvious (to me) alternative is that, once again,
God is tolerating artificial distinctions which matter to US, but not to HIM.
An old example was when God rejected King Saul from being king of Israel anymore,
and had David anointed as King. As far as God was concerned, David was king, period.
The people, however, were under the impression Saul was still king- which is why Saul
still sat on the throne after God rejected Saul as king. (Otherwise he would have had
to clean out his desk and leave the building at the end of the day, so to speak.)
In the case of the Christians after Pentecost, I can easily see them making distinctions
AMONG THEMSELVES as to who is from the Jews ("and still a Jew") and who is from the Gentiles
("and still a Gentile".) In the body of Christ, it's immaterial, there's neither Jew nor
Gentile- at least, it matters not to God. PEOPLE keep erecting artificial barriers amongst
themselves all through the history of the Christian church. In the book of Acts, mostly it
was "Jews" vs "Gentiles." After that, "of Paul", "of Cephas", and so on, mostly.
Nowadays, it's largely by denomination, although a lot of Christians have been using
specific doctrines as a personal litmus test as to who's a "real" Christian
(one who agrees with me) and who walks in darkness and ignorance (those who disagree with me).
============================
I Corinthians 1:10-13
10Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.
12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
=============================
Now, "no divisions" either meant "no divisions",
or "no divisions except that some of you are still Jews and some of you are still Gentiles."
=============================
I Corinthians 1:21-24.
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
==============================
Now Jews and Greeks(Gentiles) are mentioned here.
This means one of at least 2 things.
A) There's still a definite division between the Jewish believer in Christ and the "Greek"(Gentile)
believer in Christ, despite much being made of divisions being wrong only a few verses before.
If that's the case, God or His messengers are operating with incredibly short-and capricious-
attention spans. I can't put my faith in something where the rules change so radically
within the same chapter, yet both supposedly apply now.
B) The verse refers to those who were called from among Jews and "Greeks"(Gentiles)
who are now saved,
who ONCE would have viewed "Christ crucified" as a stumbling block or foolishness
(as a Jew or "Greek"/Gentile), but now is neither and views "Christ crucified"
as "Christ the power of God and Christ the wisdom of God."
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cman
Good examples of people dividing people.
Your points a and b have two choices in a way.
I think the depiction of both Jews and Gentiles,
having certain views, is not an all included type deal.
In other words a Gentile could look for signs and a Jew for wisdom.
More of where, for the most part of the people spoken of were at, at the time.
"I can easily see them making distinctions
AMONG THEMSELVES as to who" -insert whatever brand here.
Excellent observation of people in general.
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TrustAndObey
Divisions... Distinctions...
Synonymous words, yet can there be a difference?
I would think context has more to do with it than anything..
I have no doubt, God still sees male and female humans.. Still makes the distinction/division...
Context.. Some contexts, it doesn't matter to God. Other contexts I'm betting it does, even to God..
In my humble view, which can be wrong, so feel free to correct me, but:
Salvation was always available to all.. Divisions / Distinctions / Differences of sex and even nationality never was a factor despite what dispensationalists like to claim.
Who God picked to have His son, I am certain that gender distinction was important! lol
And in many ways, I think God purposely throughout scriptures picked the "underdog" such as the tiny nation Israel or the short little dude David that He might show his wondrous power. (As Paul stated, "In my weakness He is made strong")
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Tom
Then I might have it made:).
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year2027
God first
thanks James Trimm
Dispensing with Dispensationalism/un-dispensing with un-dispensationalism
should better be
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Human without the bean
God sees no time anyway!
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year2027
God first
thanks Human without the bean
yes time does not matter to God but it matter to men
because men watches every second by second while with God it all at the same moment
with God there only one moment of time but with man there many seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, and more than I care to name
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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