Torah...Kosher...Nazarene sect...Observances...laws...Sacrifices... nah, I'll just continue sticking with "loving God with all my heart, soul, mind & strength" Most of the other stuff is covered by that, thanks anyway James
"loving God with all my heart, soul, mind & strength" is Torah... you are quoting the Torah (Deut. 6:4)
You are saying "Torah... nah I'll just continue (and then you quote the Torah)" this makes no sense...
Well the difference is Duet 6:4 (NIV) says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
and Jesus added (unless I missed this from the OT..
Luke 10:27 (New International Version)
He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Well the difference is Duet 6:4 (NIV) says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
and Jesus added (unless I missed this from the OT..
Luke 10:27 (New International Version)
He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Yea that's quoted from the Torah also (Lev. 19:18)
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
I'm not really looking to join the fray. I consider a lot of these posts doctrinal and prefer to avoid doctrinal discussions of any length at this time. With that said, I have spent too much time reading the scriptures as Christ coming to fulfill the law and succeeding and ushering in a new covenant without law. This new covenant contains a period where God's dealings with Isreal according to promises made in the Old covenant are suspended and the gentiles are included in the promises by being Sons of Abraham by faith (trust) in accepting Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead. I do believe that this period of time will terminate with rapture and at that time God, via Jesus Christ, will fulfill all of his promises and reinstate his dealings with Isreal that are left unfinished because they rejected Messiah.
Some of those beliefs were developed during my time in the way international, though I do NOT give them credit for them since they are widely taught by many churches and are plain in context from reading the bible. I have no desire to be brought under anyone's teachings that I am to keep the law. No man can keep the law except the one who fulfilled it - Jesus Christ. If I keep part of it I am obligated to keep all of it. I will accept the grace of God and am willing to stand before the Lord's judgment on what I understand from reading new covenant scripture.
Maybe, just maybe, if you can do it without seeming and sounding arrogant, condescending, and unloving, following all that law stuff to the letter is a good thing. I've just found very few people who think they have the answers who can carry it off without sounding and acting that way - including me. So (for the most part), I stopped trying to have the answers. In this realm I find I have no answers anymore, and I'm considerably less miserable and combative.
So tell me, how can I love God with all my heart, soul, strength, and mind - and my neighbor as myself (Luke 10:27) while hating my mother, father, wife, children, and myself (Luke 14:26)?
So tell me, how can I love God with all my heart, soul, strength, and mind - and my neighbor as myself (Luke 10:27) while hating my mother, father, wife, children, and myself (Luke 14:26)?
Well, I'm no bible scholar but...
I thought Jesus was using hyperbole to demonstrate that one must give up everything in order to be his disciple. Jesus said on more than one occasion to love your neighbor. And the OT says you must "honor your father and your mother."
So clearly, Jesus doesn't want everyone to hate their families.
So clearly, Jesus doesn't want everyone to hate their families.
Not if you are a literalist - and that's my point. TWI was clear that Jesus had drawn the line in the sand. If choosing TWI (as it considered itself the stand in for the absent Christ) meant "hating" your family, then so be it.
Not if you are a literalist - and that's my point. TWI was clear that Jesus had drawn the line in the sand. If choosing TWI (as it considered itself the stand in for the absent Christ) meant "hating" your family, then so be it.
Yep. They hate even worse when older way corps request to be near their aged parents to help take care of them. Citing let the city bury the dead. Cold as ice I say.
The Way in the Scriptures is a Torah Observant sect of Judaism known as “Nazarene” with roots in Essene Judaism.
Any organization claiming to be “The Way” and teaching that the Law is not for today, is a false “Way”.
James Trimm
Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim
A follower of the [True] Way
So James would put you under laws that God never intended everyone was to live under? Judaism teaches that the gentiles were to follow the Noadic laws. The Mosaic laws were given specifically to the Jews, who made a specific covenant with God to follow them.
Well the Theocracy does not exist and will not exist again until Messiah returns, so we are not authorized to carry out penalties. As a result death was replaced by disfellowshipment. That was the case in Yeshua's day as well.
Other than that I am not sure what you mean.
The dietary laws are for all generations forever, just as the whole Torah is.
And there it is. James would put you under laws that even God didn't put you under. Fail to follow his way and you become marked and avoided. Any of this sound familiar? Oh and if you have looked at his website/blog/whatever it is, on the very front page he asks for Tithes. And there you have the real root of his mission - a money grab.
if really to teach us something try reading book like "The Antiquities of the Jews" or "Wars of the Jews
Book" or "Acts of Pilate The Descent into Hell " or "Flavius Josephus Against Apion" or "The Wars of the Jews Or The History of the Destruction of Jerusalem Book "
"loving God with all my heart, soul, mind & strength" is Torah... you are quoting the Torah (Deut. 6:4)
You are saying "Torah... nah I'll just continue (and then you quote the Torah)" this makes no sense...
[it's a demonstration of the calcification of James Trimm's thinking process that he
can't see what's clear to all the other posters, that is, the meaning of the replies
he's getting.]
Acts 15:1-31
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15"With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27"Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
And there it is. James would put you under laws that even God didn't put you under. Fail to follow his way and you become marked and avoided. Any of this sound familiar? Oh and if you have looked at his website/blog/whatever it is, on the very front page he asks for Tithes. And there you have the real root of his mission - a money grab.
[but would James Trimm ask us for money?
I mean "again" since he already solicited donations for his lawyer....]
For Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every
city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat.
"for" tells us what this reasoning is there "for" in other words this ruling in Acts 15 was given because "Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every
city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat."
If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you.
Acts 15 gives the essentials of what a Gentile needs to do in order to join the community and begin learning Torah
(details are at the link above)
[it's a demonstration of the calcification of James Trimm's thinking process that he
can't see what's clear to all the other posters, that is, the meaning of the replies
he's getting.]
Acts 15:1-31
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15"With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27"Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
[but would James Trimm ask us for money?
I mean "again" since he already solicited donations for his lawyer....]
[Well, since you're determined to end your understanding there and INSIST
that Christians are supposed to follow all the Law of Moses,
I see I'm going to have to be more obvious.
BTW, just about everybody else here has no trouble with this,
so this is unnecessary most of the time....]
Galatians 2:16-20
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
17"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
=================================
Galatians 3:1-14
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
=================================
Galatians 3:23-26
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
=============================================
[i know, I know, you've got your own personal spin on all that.
We're not required to sip your Kool-Aid, however.
We can read it for ourselves, and the contortions it takes to
invalidate a straightforward reading of this and reverse its meaning
from "we don't need the law anymore" to
"we need the law now"
do not appeal to the locals here.
This is not fertile ground for your doctrine, your organization,
or your proselytizing.
That having been said, I'm not saying you're being kicked out.
I'm saying it's plain to us that you're here with an agenda,
and I'm telling you that agenda won't get done here.
You can go try to accomplish it somewhere else, but you're
setting up a Sabrett's Hot Dog stand in front of a
vegan convention and waiting to see how much business you're
going to get. (In case it wasn't obvious, I'm using a figure of
speech- dwelling on the specifics of the figure would be moronic.
I bring that up because vpw did it sometimes, as have others.
I want to save you the trouble of doing the same just this once.}]
James said: "If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you."
WordWolf said: "Well, since you're determined to end your understanding there and INSIST that Christians are supposed to follow all the Law of Moses,
I see I'm going to have to be more obvious."
What is obvious to me, WordWolf, is that James would put Christians under laws that do not even exist for Jews. There is no law requiring Jews to attend the synogogue every week! Indeed, there were no synogogues, nor was there even a temple when the laws of Moses were given.
James said: "If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you."
WordWolf said: "Well, since you're determined to end your understanding there and INSIST that Christians are supposed to follow all the Law of Moses,
I see I'm going to have to be more obvious."
What is obvious to me, WordWolf, is that James would put Christians under laws that do not even exist for Jews. There is no law requiring Jews to attend the synogogue every week! Indeed, there were no synogogues, nor was there even a temple when the laws of Moses were given.
I thought it bore repeating.
===============================
Before I forget to mention this,
I may disagree with Abigail concerning doctrine, but I respect her beliefs
and I respect the integrity with which she holds them.
Similarly, I may disagree with many Christians concerning doctrine, but respect
their beliefs and the integrity with which they hold them.
That does not apply to everyone, and trying to meld an incomplete understanding
of Christianity to an incomplete understanding of Judaism is only going to produce
an odd patchwork creature that displays the weaknesses of both, and weaknesses
neither has. It's like trying to draw a picture of a tall, fat, skinny little man.
It's not going to work.
Of course, someone can CLAIM it would work, but then opinions are not guaranteed,
and denial has had a long, proud tradition upon the face of the earth.
Thanks WordWolf. I have great respect for my Christian friends here and learn much from them. While I may not believe Jesus was the Messiah, I do believe he was a very wise Rabbi and give high esteem to much of what he taught. And that, btw, comes from my studying and understanding of Judaism, which gave me a deeper insight into the words that have been recorded from his teachings.
There is a difference between having a respectful doctrinal discussion/debate and trying to recruit one to another cult. That is my beef with James. He does not so much engage in discourse, but in preaching and teaching. In addition, what he posts really comes down to wordsmithing and straining at gnats. I think most of us here had enough of that in TWI. He would probably fair better on a college campus (as VPW so well understood) except he is going to find it very difficult to find college kids who are willing to adhere to his strict laws.
What is obvious to me, WordWolf, is that James would put Christians under laws that do not even exist for Jews.
The more things change...the more they stay the same. :) This is not much different than what Paul was confronted by in the 1st century....(dare I say it?) CHURCH. It did some serious damage to his relationships with the people of Corinth and it is also apparent in Galatians...these guys were trouble. Putting people again in bondage.
Extremes? On one end we have those who would subject people to laws and rules that don't apply.....and on the opposite end we have people like VP who lived as if sin didn't exist and grace was a license to live in a debauched and base manner.
Christians find freedom in Christ...both extremes are just a dressed up rejection of Christ...IMO. A way to adopt religion.
Judaism teaches that the gentiles were to follow the Noadic laws. The Mosaic laws were given specifically to the Jews, who made a specific covenant with God to follow them.
Abigail, what are "Noadic laws"??? I mean I don't need to go out and start building myself an ark now, do I? I mean boat parking is expensive enough as it is for even small ones. Sheesh.
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WordWolf
Looks like the general pleasantries are over, and James Trimm is now trying to advertise for converts on the GSC. The GSC posters are all very cynical- once bitten, twice shy. We're not looking for
geisha779
The more things change...the more they stay the same. :) This is not much different than what Paul was confronted by in the 1st century....(dare I say it?) CHURCH. It did some serious damage to his re
Abigail
Well, my spelling was off. It is actually the Noahic laws, they are the 7 commandments given to Noah after the flood: 1) to establish courts of justice 2) not to commit blasphemy 3) not to commit
James Trimm
"loving God with all my heart, soul, mind & strength" is Torah... you are quoting the Torah (Deut. 6:4)
You are saying "Torah... nah I'll just continue (and then you quote the Torah)" this makes no sense...
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OldSkool
Well the difference is Duet 6:4 (NIV) says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
and Jesus added (unless I missed this from the OT..
Luke 10:27 (New International Version)
He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
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James Trimm
Yea that's quoted from the Torah also (Lev. 19:18)
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James Trimm
I have been asked to continue this thread henceforth in the doctrinal section. I will reopen it there.
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OldSkool
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
I'm not really looking to join the fray. I consider a lot of these posts doctrinal and prefer to avoid doctrinal discussions of any length at this time. With that said, I have spent too much time reading the scriptures as Christ coming to fulfill the law and succeeding and ushering in a new covenant without law. This new covenant contains a period where God's dealings with Isreal according to promises made in the Old covenant are suspended and the gentiles are included in the promises by being Sons of Abraham by faith (trust) in accepting Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead. I do believe that this period of time will terminate with rapture and at that time God, via Jesus Christ, will fulfill all of his promises and reinstate his dealings with Isreal that are left unfinished because they rejected Messiah.
Some of those beliefs were developed during my time in the way international, though I do NOT give them credit for them since they are widely taught by many churches and are plain in context from reading the bible. I have no desire to be brought under anyone's teachings that I am to keep the law. No man can keep the law except the one who fulfilled it - Jesus Christ. If I keep part of it I am obligated to keep all of it. I will accept the grace of God and am willing to stand before the Lord's judgment on what I understand from reading new covenant scripture.
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Tzaia
Maybe, just maybe, if you can do it without seeming and sounding arrogant, condescending, and unloving, following all that law stuff to the letter is a good thing. I've just found very few people who think they have the answers who can carry it off without sounding and acting that way - including me. So (for the most part), I stopped trying to have the answers. In this realm I find I have no answers anymore, and I'm considerably less miserable and combative.
So tell me, how can I love God with all my heart, soul, strength, and mind - and my neighbor as myself (Luke 10:27) while hating my mother, father, wife, children, and myself (Luke 14:26)?
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soul searcher
Well, I'm no bible scholar but...
I thought Jesus was using hyperbole to demonstrate that one must give up everything in order to be his disciple. Jesus said on more than one occasion to love your neighbor. And the OT says you must "honor your father and your mother."
So clearly, Jesus doesn't want everyone to hate their families.
That's my take, anyway.
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Tzaia
Not if you are a literalist - and that's my point. TWI was clear that Jesus had drawn the line in the sand. If choosing TWI (as it considered itself the stand in for the absent Christ) meant "hating" your family, then so be it.
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OldSkool
Yep. They hate even worse when older way corps request to be near their aged parents to help take care of them. Citing let the city bury the dead. Cold as ice I say.
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soul searcher
Is that a reference to Luke or Jeremiah?
Either way, you're right, it's cold as ice.
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OldSkool
Luke, I believe.
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polynesian
I was always taught that the word hate as quoted by Jesus there, meant to love less (says that in the front of Bullinger Bible anyways)
I prefer, personally, to attempt living love with God, friends & family, being led by the spirit & not by the law.
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chockfull
European Dance Remix:
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Abigail
So James would put you under laws that God never intended everyone was to live under? Judaism teaches that the gentiles were to follow the Noadic laws. The Mosaic laws were given specifically to the Jews, who made a specific covenant with God to follow them.
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Abigail
And there it is. James would put you under laws that even God didn't put you under. Fail to follow his way and you become marked and avoided. Any of this sound familiar? Oh and if you have looked at his website/blog/whatever it is, on the very front page he asks for Tithes. And there you have the real root of his mission - a money grab.
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year2027
God first
thanks James Trimm
if really to teach us something try reading book like "The Antiquities of the Jews" or "Wars of the Jews
Book" or "Acts of Pilate The Descent into Hell " or "Flavius Josephus Against Apion" or "The Wars of the Jews Or The History of the Destruction of Jerusalem Book "
to get a better of who Jews were
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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WordWolf
[it's a demonstration of the calcification of James Trimm's thinking process that he
can't see what's clear to all the other posters, that is, the meaning of the replies
he's getting.]
Acts 15:1-31
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15"With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27"Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
[but would James Trimm ask us for money?
I mean "again" since he already solicited donations for his lawyer....]
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James Trimm
My understanding of Acts 15 is here:
http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/understanding-acts-15
BTW notice that Acts 15:21 says:
For Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every
city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat.
"for" tells us what this reasoning is there "for" in other words this ruling in Acts 15 was given because "Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every
city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat."
If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you.
Acts 15 gives the essentials of what a Gentile needs to do in order to join the community and begin learning Torah
(details are at the link above)
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WordWolf
[Well, since you're determined to end your understanding there and INSIST
that Christians are supposed to follow all the Law of Moses,
I see I'm going to have to be more obvious.
BTW, just about everybody else here has no trouble with this,
so this is unnecessary most of the time....]
Galatians 2:16-20
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
17"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
=================================
Galatians 3:1-14
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
=================================
Galatians 3:23-26
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
=============================================
[i know, I know, you've got your own personal spin on all that.
We're not required to sip your Kool-Aid, however.
We can read it for ourselves, and the contortions it takes to
invalidate a straightforward reading of this and reverse its meaning
from "we don't need the law anymore" to
"we need the law now"
do not appeal to the locals here.
This is not fertile ground for your doctrine, your organization,
or your proselytizing.
That having been said, I'm not saying you're being kicked out.
I'm saying it's plain to us that you're here with an agenda,
and I'm telling you that agenda won't get done here.
You can go try to accomplish it somewhere else, but you're
setting up a Sabrett's Hot Dog stand in front of a
vegan convention and waiting to see how much business you're
going to get. (In case it wasn't obvious, I'm using a figure of
speech- dwelling on the specifics of the figure would be moronic.
I bring that up because vpw did it sometimes, as have others.
I want to save you the trouble of doing the same just this once.}]
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Abigail
James said: "If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you."
WordWolf said: "Well, since you're determined to end your understanding there and INSIST that Christians are supposed to follow all the Law of Moses,
I see I'm going to have to be more obvious."
What is obvious to me, WordWolf, is that James would put Christians under laws that do not even exist for Jews. There is no law requiring Jews to attend the synogogue every week! Indeed, there were no synogogues, nor was there even a temple when the laws of Moses were given.
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WordWolf
I thought it bore repeating.
===============================
Before I forget to mention this,
I may disagree with Abigail concerning doctrine, but I respect her beliefs
and I respect the integrity with which she holds them.
Similarly, I may disagree with many Christians concerning doctrine, but respect
their beliefs and the integrity with which they hold them.
That does not apply to everyone, and trying to meld an incomplete understanding
of Christianity to an incomplete understanding of Judaism is only going to produce
an odd patchwork creature that displays the weaknesses of both, and weaknesses
neither has. It's like trying to draw a picture of a tall, fat, skinny little man.
It's not going to work.
Of course, someone can CLAIM it would work, but then opinions are not guaranteed,
and denial has had a long, proud tradition upon the face of the earth.
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Abigail
Thanks WordWolf. I have great respect for my Christian friends here and learn much from them. While I may not believe Jesus was the Messiah, I do believe he was a very wise Rabbi and give high esteem to much of what he taught. And that, btw, comes from my studying and understanding of Judaism, which gave me a deeper insight into the words that have been recorded from his teachings.
There is a difference between having a respectful doctrinal discussion/debate and trying to recruit one to another cult. That is my beef with James. He does not so much engage in discourse, but in preaching and teaching. In addition, what he posts really comes down to wordsmithing and straining at gnats. I think most of us here had enough of that in TWI. He would probably fair better on a college campus (as VPW so well understood) except he is going to find it very difficult to find college kids who are willing to adhere to his strict laws.
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geisha779
The more things change...the more they stay the same. :) This is not much different than what Paul was confronted by in the 1st century....(dare I say it?) CHURCH. It did some serious damage to his relationships with the people of Corinth and it is also apparent in Galatians...these guys were trouble. Putting people again in bondage.
Extremes? On one end we have those who would subject people to laws and rules that don't apply.....and on the opposite end we have people like VP who lived as if sin didn't exist and grace was a license to live in a debauched and base manner.
Christians find freedom in Christ...both extremes are just a dressed up rejection of Christ...IMO. A way to adopt religion.
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chockfull
Abigail, what are "Noadic laws"??? I mean I don't need to go out and start building myself an ark now, do I? I mean boat parking is expensive enough as it is for even small ones. Sheesh.
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