Aramaic NT Origins (The HRV)

[lovematters]

Thanks Bob, that cleared up a lot.

Turns out, I'm one of them there substrate guzzlers my own self but more for populist reasoning than scholarly.

The way I figure, since most of the early church were Semitic language speakers and readers, the originals would be in a Semitic language rather than the highfalutin Greek which the average Joe in Joppa or Jerusalem wouldn't know.

My avatar is brand new. I've been posting for years without one and started shopping around for one a few weeks ago. One of my Twitter followers is an Iranian (in-country Green) who has an Oxford student follower who has an avatar of the intensely swarthy chap I'm now sporting.

I'm hoping the snappy fez will be a hit with the chicks.

[roberterasmus]

Thanks Bob, that cleared up a lot.

Turns out, I'm one of them there substrate guzzlers my own self but more for populist reasoning than scholarly.

The way I figure, since most of the early church were Semitic language speakers and readers, the originals would be in a Semitic language rather than the highfalutin Greek which the average Joe in Joppa or Jerusalem wouldn't know.

My avatar is brand new. I've been posting for years without one and started shopping around for one a few weeks ago. One of my Twitter followers is an Iranian (in-country Green) who has an Oxford student follower who has an avatar of the intensely swarthy chap I'm now sporting.

I'm hoping the snappy fez will be a hit with the chicks.

Hey is "Joe in Joppa" copywrited? Love it.

I just thought of another substrate dealy with the underlying Greek. Similar to the "Bank" analogy above, but far more semitic is the fact that some letters in Aramaic/ Hebrew are so very close in resemblance that a single "tittle" separates them (such is the case with the resh and the dalat ("r" and "d" in transliteration). There is one verse that is completely cleared up by recognizing the crazy English and fixing it with a "tittle".

Bob

[Steve Lortz]

Hey, Bob!

I don't know enough about Hebrew or Aramaic to make an informed judgment, though it seems difficult for me to imagine Paul writing to the Corinthians in Aramaic. What do you think about Q? Could Q have been an Aramaic document? Could that be why its traces survive in other gospels, but Q itself has not survived?

Love,

Steve

[Gen-2]

Love,

Substrate is the underlying text that we "suppose" to be behind the Greek of the extant manuscripts (MMS). As you have read some of the posts above you'll note that there are some replying who feel that absence of a text means that there was no Aramaic original to the Christian Scriptures ...

Bob

There are times when I will reverse subject and predicate, or add a definite article where another American wouldn't, Since English doesn't use gender specific articles I'll add "The" in odd places. No one gets it here, at Greasespot. But in Ireland a lot of people do it, People who were raised speaking Gaeilge.

I'm not sure if the "new testament" Books were written in Aramaic originally. I am sure that the oldest examples we have are not in Aramaic. But if a person's native language is not the one he's writing in, there will often be the tendency to use figures and language patterns from their native language. What I mean by this is that Paul (FOR INSTANCE) might have wrote Greek,... with an accent.

A whole lot of mss "bits" continue to be found of the early Bible (NT), they're all Greek. That's not making much of a case for The Aramaic or Hebrew. If this was truly the go-to language and used by the early church to such a great extent, it perplexes me that In so many digs and tells dated to that time - no and I mean NO Aramaic versions.

If there was more substance to the substrate, it would seem a much more "substantial" hypothesis.

It remains in the category of the educated guess, which I understand. But it's still guesswork.

[lovematters]

Hey is "Joe in Joppa" copywrited? Love it.

Plagiarize at will, Bob. :)

I got so carried away talking about my new avatar I neglected to tell you why I like to be anonymous.

The first time I posted in this community (on GSC's predecessor WayDale) I signed off with my full name. The site's administrator quickly removed it. I figured he probably knew more about the site's posters and lurkers than I did and I haven't used it since.

.

Edited June 16, 2010 by lovematters

[cman]

I can still hear our Hebrew and Aramaic Fathers and Mothers in English.

SHOUTING to me to listen in the silence of my mind.

With an ever so soft whisper of the spirits of the spirit.

A language, a tongue that has not been lost after all these years.

Though the time is a moment, a twinkle, a flash.

Filled with so much I can't hardly take it all in.

I hear it from every person's soul, a song, a dream.

So close, so in it, I know it's real, as real as it was in Hebrew and Aramaic.

It is in my minds eye and ear, an opening into the new mind of Christ in the many tongues,

we share......

Edited June 16, 2010 by cman

[roberterasmus]

Plagiarize at will, Bob. :)

I got so carried away talking about my new avatar I neglected to tell you why I like to be anonymous.

The first time I posted in this community (on GSC's predecessor WayDale) I signed off with my full name. The site's administrator quickly removed it. I figured he probably knew more about the site's posters and lurkers than I did and I haven't used it since.

.

Just so you know. I love the snappy fez, but I wonder if it truly is a chick magnet...keep me posted.

B

[WordWolf]

There are times when I will reverse subject and predicate, or add a definite article where another American wouldn't, Since English doesn't use gender specific articles I'll add "The" in odd places. No one gets it here, at Greasespot. But in Ireland a lot of people do it, People who were raised speaking Gaeilge.

(snip)

An example for those who can't picture that in the abstract...

"Do you speak Gaelic?" might be said as

"Do you have the Gaelic?" to someone fluent in Gaeilge and English.

I saw someone ask someone else's age in English by asking

"How many years does she have?" which is the Spanish construction

of the same question, rendered word-for-word in English.

The literal English of that sentence would be rendered

"How old is she?"

[Celtic Believer]

Good Evening (or Good Morning, as the case may be),

First, THIS is the post that brought "rabbi" Trimm here:

Re: The Way International - Aramaic Interlinear

Postby SyriacQuestioner » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:58 pm

Dear Assur,

You might like to know that four of the translators were Gertrude Paulson, Charlene Edge, Joe Wise, and Bernita Jess, who was a longtime student of George Lamsa.

There also was a fifth translator named Bruce Mahone, who helped to finish this translation.

There is quite a bit of Lamsa's scholarship behind this New Testament.

You can plainly see this, with Yeshua's cry from the cross "God, God, for what purpose have you spared me?"

I too think that this is a very keen and sharp translation.

One can still buy the three volume Way International translation with a concordance and dictionary from:

http://www.theway.org/bookstore.php?pag ... re&lang=en

It costs about $115.00, not counting shipping costs.

It might also be a wise thing to read this:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/edi ... inity.html

It gives a rather unhappy story as to how The Way Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament came to be, I'm sorry to say.

Finally Assur, if I had known the behind the scenes story that the above URL gives, I've gotta say that I'm not sure if I would buy this translation again, if I had to do it today.

And according to their own Aramaic-English Pesh**a New Testament Concordance, Matthew 27:46, should read something like; "God, God, why did you leave me" or "God, God, why have you left me?"

So, was this improper 'translation' done to appease Wierwille? It seems so!

Shlama, Syriac Questioner

SyriacQuestioner

Posts: 19

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:18 pm

* E-mail SyriacQuestioner

This was at Peshi**a.org where James Trimm lurks, but does not have the courage to post.

Let me just say what the Owner/Moderator of Pesh***a.org says about our boy James Trimm:

"I met James Trimm face to face, and he cannot carry on a conversation in Syriac for even three minutes, if he cannot even SPEAK Syriac, HOW can he translate it?"

Paul Younan is a native Assyrian, and speaks Syriac as his native tongue.

James Trimm is a fraud, I'm only sorry that he was not convicted of plagiarism, which he IS guilty of.

One can lay Trimm's "HRV" New Testament next to The Way International's Aramaic/English Interlinear, and only the names and places were Hebraicized by Trimm, everything else, is exactly the same, line by line.

And I tried to help get him convicted, but my best efforts were not enough.

I have NO connection to The Way International with the exception that I sold them my copy of James Trimm's HRV New Testament.

But this is/was only to help the Messianic/Syriac/Aramaic Primacy community, NOT The Way International.

Check out THIS e-group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nazarene_fraud_victims/

It tells the whole sordid story of "the Rabbi" and his fraud and plagiarism schemes.

It took me about a month of trying to join this list, or I would have chimed in much earlier about James Trimm.

Who by the way, is of Scottish descent, and is NOT Jewish.

This man and his associates, like Andrew Gabriel Roth, are a plague on the modern Messianic movement.

If I can sign in again tomorrow, I'll try to post some more about James Trimm's fictional world, but I've got a socio-pathic hacker after me, and my internet accounts are subject to his madness.

Believe NOTHING that James Trimm says or tells you, he is in this for the almighty dollar, and to line James Trimm's pocketbook, and nothing else.

It's about 12:30 AM, or I'd write more now.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Truth against the world, Albion Guppy

Edited July 5, 2010 by Celtic Believer

[cman]

Thanks for your post, Celtic, informative I suppose....

But most of us have seen this before, not only the way international but others as well.

Individuals or groups of individuals have tried to ride the wave of money and power that twi pushed.

There have been and continue to be exceptions that post and be to the greater good....

[roberterasmus]

Thanks for your post, Celtic, informative I suppose....

But most of us have seen this before, not only the way international but others as well.

Individuals or groups of individuals have tried to ride the wave of money and power that twi pushed.

There have been and continue to be exceptions that post and be to the greater good....

cman,

Thanks for that last sentence. It seems that where there is smoke there is that other stuff, but there are important areas of true, Biblical research with the Aramaic/Hebrew substrate that can continue to bring to light slight changes in the text and can illuminate the Western mind to the ancient near east background to the text.

IMHO

RE

[year2027]

God first

thanks Albion Guppy

I blessed to have you join us

thanks

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Celtic Believer]

cman,

Thanks for that last sentence. It seems that where there is smoke there is that other stuff, but there are important areas of true, Biblical research with the Aramaic/Hebrew substrate that can continue to bring to light slight changes in the text and can illuminate the Western mind to the ancient near east background to the text.

IMHO

RE

Dear Robert,

I too am interested in the underlying strata of Aramaic in New Testament Studies.

I just want to see it done in an honest way, as free of involving money, as possible.

If you have any New Testament insights from an Aramaic/Hebraic direction, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

I know a lot of (the former) The Way folks are leery of this (Aramaic strata) because of Wierwille and Lamsa's craziness, but because two (make that THREE if you count Trimm!) crazy people get involved in an important area of research, does not invalidate the importance of Aramaic insights into NT research!

I'd love to hear what you, or any other former Way member, has to say about these areas.

Thanks for your input.

Peace, Albion

Edited July 5, 2010 by Celtic Believer

[Celtic Believer]

Does anyone know anything about the Jesuit who helped Mel Gibson with the Passion script? Is he some kind of expert in the field? Does he publish?

Greetings in Messiah,

This is a long time ago now.

But Mel Gibson's Jesuit Professor friend "reinvented" a First Century Aramaic, and then 'filled in the blank spaces' with Hebrew.

If you know even a little Syriac, and Hebrew, you can actually HEAR (not read on screen) where the language changes from his "invented Aramaic", to Hebrew.

Funny......why did Mel Gibson not go to one of the many Churches of the East, and actually hire someone who spoke Eastern Syriac (Assyrian) to help him with the dialogue of this movie??

I've wondered this many, many times.

But now you know a little more about the making of 'The Passion of The Christ', which I personally felt was a great movie anyway!

Peace, Albion

[Celtic Believer]

Good Evening (or Good Morning, as the case may be),

First, THIS is the post that brought "rabbi" Trimm here:

Re: The Way International - Aramaic Interlinear

Postby SyriacQuestioner » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:58 pm

Dear Assur,

You might like to know that four of the translators were Gertrude Paulson, Charlene Edge, Joe Wise, and Bernita Jess, who was a longtime student of George Lamsa.

There also was a fifth translator named Bruce Mahone, who helped to finish this translation.

There is quite a bit of Lamsa's scholarship behind this New Testament.

You can plainly see this, with Yeshua's cry from the cross "God, God, for what purpose have you spared me?"

I too think that this is a very keen and sharp translation.

One can still buy the three volume Way International translation with a concordance and dictionary from:

http://www.theway.org/bookstore.php?pag ... re&lang=en

It costs about $115.00, not counting shipping costs.

It might also be a wise thing to read this:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/edi ... inity.html

It gives a rather unhappy story as to how The Way Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament came to be, I'm sorry to say.

Finally Assur, if I had known the behind the scenes story that the above URL gives, I've gotta say that I'm not sure if I would buy this translation again, if I had to do it today.

And according to their own Aramaic-English Pesh**a New Testament Concordance, Matthew 27:46, should read something like; "God, God, why did you leave me" or "God, God, why have you left me?"

So, was this improper 'translation' done to appease Wierwille? It seems so!

Shlama, Syriac Questioner

SyriacQuestioner

Posts: 19

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:18 pm

* E-mail SyriacQuestioner

This was at Peshi**a.org where James Trimm lurks, but does not have the courage to post.

Let me just say what the Owner/Moderator of Pesh***a.org says about our boy James Trimm:

"I met James Trimm face to face, and he cannot carry on a conversation in Syriac for even three minutes, if he cannot even SPEAK Syriac, HOW can he translate it?"

Paul Younan is a native Assyrian, and speaks Syriac as his native tongue.

James Trimm is a fraud, I'm only sorry that he was not convicted of plagiarism, which he IS guilty of.

One can lay Trimm's "HRV" New Testament next to The Way International's Aramaic/English Interlinear, and only the names and places were Hebraicized by Trimm, everything else, is exactly the same, line by line.

And I tried to help get him convicted of plagiarism, but my best efforts were not enough.

I have NO connection to The Way International with the exception that I sold them my copy of James Trimm's HRV New Testament.

But this is/was only to help the Messianic/Syriac/Aramaic Primacy community, NOT The Way International.

Check out THIS e-group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nazarene_fraud_victims/

It tells the whole sordid story of "the Rabbi" and his fraud and plagiarism schemes.

It took me about a month of trying to join this list, or I would have chimed in much earlier about James Trimm.

Who by the way, is of Scottish descent, and is NOT Jewish.

This man and his associates, like Andrew Gabriel Roth, are a plague on the modern Messianic movement.

If I can sign in again tomorrow, I'll try to post some more about James Trimm's fictional world, but I've got a socio-pathic hacker after me, and my internet accounts are subject to his madness.

Believe NOTHING that James Trimm says or tells you, he is in this for the almighty dollar, and to line James Trimm's pocketbook, and nothing else.

It's about 12:30 AM, or I'd write more now.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Truth against the world, Albion Guppy

If one has any doubt about James Trimm's various dablings and plagiarism you need to go here and read a bit:

http://www.lebtahor.com/truth/trimm/plagiarisms/HRVAveryPaper.htm

Paul Younan (Owner/Moderator of Peshi**a Org) on James Trimm:

Hi Akhi,

To be completely honest with you, I find it very annoying to argue with someone who can't even speak Aramaic, about Aramaic.

James Trimm is a student. He learned whatever little he knows from reading books. That's not a bad thing. What is bad is when he sets himself up as some sort of authority on the topic, which he is not.

What's worse is that he insists on arguing with me about the meaning of words he has no clue about, about a language that is completely foreign to him and that he can't even hold a 30-second discussion in, face-to-face.

James Trimm is a person of Scottish lineage. His family background is deep southern U.S. Protestant Christian, not Jewish.

Furthermore, James Trimm has absolutely no credentials to be calling himself a "Dr.", and you shouldn't address him is as such, either. That gives people the wrong impression, but that's your choice.

Nobody who really knows a spit of Aramaic pays any attention to him, as Dr. Kiraz will attest to you.

I will be here to answer any questions you need me for, but realize that I have serious qualms about giving him any more undeserved attention than he already gets.

Paul Younan

Edited July 5, 2010 by Celtic Believer

[Celtic Believer]

Come on James, you've lurked for YEARS over at www.peshi**a.org, and the Nazarene Fraud Forums at Yahoo as well, why don't you *finally* come out in the OPEN and actually REPLY to these charges??

I double dog dare you! ;-) Albion Guppy

[roberterasmus]

Dear Robert,

I too am interested in the underlying strata of Aramaic in New Testament Studies.

I just want to see it done in an honest way, as free of involving money, as possible.

If you have any New Testament insights from an Aramaic/Hebraic direction, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

I know a lot of (the former) The Way folks are leery of this (Aramaic strata) because of Wierwille and Lamsa's craziness, but because two (make that THREE if you count Trimm!) crazy people get involved in an important area of research, does not invalidate the importance of Aramaic insights into NT research!

I'd love to hear what you, or any other former Way member, has to say about these areas.

Thanks for your input.

Peace, Albion

Albion,

There are a few ways to approach this subject. I personally like to involk the Aramaic substrate when it really matters. I also like to avoid the Syriac. It wasn't the issue (isn't the issue). Jesus and his disciples, Paul, John the Revelator and the rest of those highfalutin' Hebrews spoke Galilean and Palestinian Aramaic. If you find a text that doesn't really sound correct in your mind or doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture then an Aramaic substrate might help. I personally believe that Paul oversaw (a word???) the translation of the Christian Scriptures into Greek and did a damn fine job.

RE

[Celtic Believer]

Albion,

There are a few ways to approach this subject. I personally like to involk the Aramaic substrate when it really matters. I also like to avoid the Syriac. It wasn't the issue (isn't the issue). Jesus and his disciples, Paul, John the Revelator and the rest of those highfalutin' Hebrews spoke Galilean and Palestinian Aramaic. If you find a text that doesn't really sound correct in your mind or doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture then an Aramaic substrate might help. I personally believe that Paul oversaw (a word???) the translation of the Christian Scriptures into Greek and did a damn fine job.

RE

Dear Robert,

The *only* book that I know of that really approaches this subject is:

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Palestinian-Aramaic-Testament-Version/dp/9056930184/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278506845&sr=1-25

And a $150.00 is out of my budget right now.

I've read that the Eastern Syriac dialect is somewhat like Galilean/Palestinian Aramaic, but since neither of these Aramaic dialects now exist, except as scholarly concepts/ideas, we may never know.

I'd be interested to hear some more of your ideas, I've gotta think some more about Paul being the translator from Aramaic to Greek, but since his Epistles were the earliest Messianic/Christian documents that we have, I suppose that this makes sense.

Give me some more time to think on this.......OK?

Would you be willing to discuss Aramaic (New Testament ideas) with me some more? I'd really like that a lot. Thanks for considering this Robert.

Please let me know.

Blessings of Messiah this day! Albion

Edited July 7, 2010 by Celtic Believer

[roberterasmus]

Dear Robert,

The *only* book that I know of that really approaches this subject is:

http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Palestinian-Aramaic-Testament-Version/dp/9056930184/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278506845&sr=1-25

And a $150.00 is out of my budget right now.

I've read that the Eastern Syriac dialect is somewhat like Galilean/Palestinian Aramaic, but since neither of these Aramaic dialects now exist, except as scholarly concepts/ideas, we may never know.

I'd be interested to hear some more of your ideas, I've gotta think some more about Paul being the translator from Aramaic to Greek, but since his Epistles were the earliest Messianic/Christian documents that we have, I suppose that this makes sense.

Give me some more time to think on this.......OK?

Would you be willing to discuss Aramaic (New Testament ideas) with me some more? I'd really like that a lot. Thanks for considering this Robert.

Please let me know.

Blessings of Messiah this day! Albion

Hi Albion,

Much of the Aramaic original discussion gets into the speculative and I'm much more comfortable with theology (not that i can't discuss the Aramaic original...I'm trained in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and Syriac), it's just that theology, most importantly how things "fit" and apply is higher on my list of "things to do" these days. But if you have specific questions about the language and how it might relate to the Greek, I'll do my best to answer it.

For instance the book you mentioned is certainly not the only one on the planet that approaches the language of Palestine, but it might be one of the more difficult to handle. There are countless discussions of the possiblity of the Aramaic original in journals (scholary ones in libraries).

RE

[Tom]

Hi Albion,

Much of the Aramaic original discussion gets into the speculative and I'm much more comfortable with theology (not that i can't discuss the Aramaic original...I'm trained in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and Syriac), it's just that theology, most importantly how things "fit" and apply is higher on my list of "things to do" these days. But if you have specific questions about the language and how it might relate to the Greek, I'll do my best to answer it.

For instance the book you mentioned is certainly not the only one on the planet that approaches the language of Palestine, but it might be one of the more difficult to handle. There are countless discussions of the possiblity of the Aramaic original in journals (scholary ones in libraries).

RE

Here is a question I posed to James T:

In the gospel of John, is the "he" or "him" in the Greek in the following versus the same gender in the Aramaic. Is it an it, neutral – does it matter in the Aramaic?

Thanks James.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Follows James's response, what do you think? Anyone? I don't want to ratchet up a judgment on James; I would appreciate any insight though:

FROM HRV INTRODUCTION

One problem that presents itself, in translating the New Testament from Hebrew and

Aramaic into English, is that of the gender of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit).

English is very different from Hebrew and Aramaic. To begin with, English has three

genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter (i.e. he, she, and it). Hebrew and Aramaic

have no neuter gender. In Hebrew and Aramaic everything is either a “he” or a “she”,

and nothing is an “it”. Also gender plays a much more important role in Hebrew and

Aramaic, than in English. In English, gender is usually only an issue when dealing

with pronouns. But in Hebrew and in Aramaic, nouns and verbs are also masculine or

feminine. And while there are no true adjectives in Hebrew (nouns are used as

adjectives), noun modifiers must agree in gender with the noun. Now the Hebrew

word RUACH (Aramaic RUCHA) is grammatically feminine, as is the phrase Ruach

HaKodesh. This is matched by the role of the Ruach HaKodesh as “comforter” (John

14-16), and the identification of the “comforter”, with YHWH acting as a “mother”

(Is. 66:13).

Now in English, the Ruach is often referred to as “he” or “it” as also in the Greek New

Testament. However this seems very odd indeed, to the Semitic mind.

Now it is very clear that the gender of the RUACH has been revised in many passages

of the Aramaic, to agree with the Hellenistic concept of the Holy Spirit as being either

a “he” or an “it”. Thus the pronouns used for the Ruach HaKodesh in John 14-16 in

the Pedangta, are all masculine. However the hand of revision is very clear. For

example, while both the Pedangta and Old Syriac have “he” in John 16:8, the Old

Syriac has “she” just a few verses further down in 16:13, while the Pedangta has “he”.

Moreover there are many passages in which the Pedangta itself, pairs the Ruach

HaKodesh with feminine verbs and/or feminine modifiers: Mk. 1:10; John 1:32, 33;

6:63; 7:39; Acts 8:29, 39; 16:17; Rom. 8:9, 10, 11, 16, 26a, 26b, 1Cor. 3:16; 1Tim.

4:1; 1Pt. 1:11; 4:14 and 1Jn. 5:6. In fact the Pedangta Aramaic of Rom. 8:16, opens

with:

And she the Ruach gives testimony….

While it is clear that the Ruach HaKodesh has no literal gender, it is also clear that the

Ruach HaKodesh is grammatically and figuratively a “she”.

[Abigail]

I am by no means a scholar in Aramaic, but James would be correct. From the Jewish perspective the holy spirit is referenced as a she.

[Tom]

I am by no means a scholar in Aramaic, but James would be correct. From the Jewish perspective the holy spirit is referenced as a she.

Thanks Abigail,

I'm really fine with that perspective.

Isaiah 66:13  As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

14  And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

Quite fine with it!

[TrustAndObey]

Here is a question I posed to James T:

In the gospel of John, is the "he" or "him" in the Greek in the following versus the same gender in the Aramaic. Is it an it, neutral – does it matter in the Aramaic?

Just out of curiosity Tom, would it make any difference?

You do realize in most languages besides English, every "noun/pronoun/adjective" has a "gender". Take the word "house" in Greek, typically oikos even in the scriptures.. That's masculine ("os" ending).. But it is actually used in the scriptures in the feminine form also (even in John 14).. Course a house to most people has no gender, but as in most languages, gender wasn't about your sexual organs, as it is more about it's philosophical qualities.. Even in the scriptures you have a word that by definition is a young girl, yet the word itself is in neuter form (Mat 14:11), yet it 100% describes a little girl!..

Edited July 12, 2010 by TrustAndObey

[Tom]

Just out of curiosity Tom, would it make any difference?

I've been looking at who/what the Comforter is, to the idea that there is only One Spirit. If the Spirit is an "it," that lends credence to the idea that each of us may have our own individual spirit - no, it doesn't really, but VP took advantage of that to leverage/spin the "it" interpretation into the doctrine that each of us has our own individual spirit. But there is One Spirit into which we are all made to drink. The ramifications of that - the "differences" are extensive and gratifying.

Ephesians 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

[TrustAndObey]

I've been looking at who/what the Comforter is, to the idea that there is only One Spirit. If the Spirit is an "it," that lends credence to the idea that each of us may have our own individual spirit - no, it doesn't really, but VP took advantage of that to leverage/spin the "it" interpretation into the doctrine that each of us has our own individual spirit.

Yes, it did lend a bit of credence after you buy into all the other crap and out of context scriptures. It was also the whole grouping of the "new man", "inward man", "inner spirit", etc, etc, together that helped leverage it.. Unfortunately, it all goes back to us being like God, mini/demi gods at the least..

Course, no matter what the gender is, out of TWI and in the real world it just doesn't make much difference. Just like me trying to tell my wife that it's moj głow and not moj głowa.. She just ignores me.. (I insist my head is not female! But alas, the language says it is...)