Where might they be found? Are they somewhere in this thread? I got lost somewhere along the way.
For what it is worth (it was worth something to me), I emailed James about the gender of the pronouns, "he" and "him," used for the word "Comforter" in John 14. I wanted to know what the Hebrew and Aramaic had to say about these verses. His response was quick, concise, considered, illuminating, and directly answered my question. Granted, much of it (not all) was a paste from his book. But, in view of the fact that it answered my question so well, that didn't bother me in the least. On the contrary, it impressed me.
Not only did he address considerations involved in translating between & among the languages involved, but also, he nicely addressed the literal, figurative, and grammatical language considerations involved.
It seemed a bit dense to me, but maybe I'm the one who is dense, or, at least, a novice to these languages. I figure I understood what he was saying, & replied to James, stating what I thought the application of his post meant to the verses I was considering. That was yesterday. I'm awaiting further response from him.
I very much appreciate his response, & it sparked interest in the whole field.
Tom
Tom,
The hypothesis is found in numerous scholarly articles in the early 20th century where the debate was hottest and heaviest. Charles Cutler Torrey (out of Yale) and his ilk had the best proofs. Their writing usually carries the requirement of knowing the languages (as in the scholarly world it is the height of borishness to make it easy...). Go figure.
But I'll try to dig out one or two and PDF them. Contact me within the forum and I'll give you my home email if you'd like.
Now, there are also books written by Torrey and others (full length jobies that will really put you to sleep), and I'd avoid the Pesh__ta Primacy Peoples stuff. They just confuse the issue with Syriac, which was not the original language of Jesus, contrary to George Lamsa, Rocco Errico and many others.
As I mentioned above, I've written articles on the subject itself (with the layman in mind, BTW) and could be persuaded to PDF one (at least).
First issue of G'MIRA: A Journal of Semitic New Testament Studies
G'MIRA: is a non-sectarian electronic journal dedicated to the study of the Semitic origin of the New Testament. Articles may cover any of the any aspect of Semitic New Testament origins of all or parts of the NT including Hebrew or Aramaic NT Textual Criticism and Hebrew or Aramaic NT Source Criticism. G'MIRA will publish academic scholarly articles (full-length articles or shorter notes are both welcome), project reports, and book reviews in a web based electronic journal. G'MIRA will be published quarterly on the Web in .pdf format.
Gmira-list is a non-sectarian e-mail discussion group devoted to the academic field of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament studies. The list is associated with the electronic journal.
G’mira—An Aramaic word meaning “perfect, full-grown, mature”
Submissions to G'MIRA
All submissions of articles and project reports, as well as general inquiries, should be sent to the General Editor in electronic form (Word format). Submissions may be sent directly to the General Editor or they may be mailed on CD rom to the following address:
James S. Trimm
G'MIRA
P.O. Box 471
Hurst, TX 76053
USA
Paper copies of articles may also be submitted, providing that they accompany an electronic copy of the same article.
Or emailed as an attached file to cleartruth@yahoo.com with the Subject G'MIRA SUBMISSION.
The following fonts should be used:
For English and Latin use the Times New Roman font
For Hebrew use the SPTiberian font
For Syriac use the SPEdessa font
For Greek use the SPIonic font
All submissions are subject to a peer-review process by the G'MIRA Editorial Board.
The author has said that one of the reasons Aramaic is a likely candidate for the original source language is because Aramaic is the only language where verses rhyme.
Have you noticed the rhymes?
Just so you'll know, "Who are you?" isn't something that we ask around here.
Bob, please forgive us if some of us are a bit skeptical. But Mr. Trimm has given us good cause to be skeptical on this particular topic. One would think if he had something genuine to offer, he himself would have more honesty and integrity.
The author has said that one of the reasons Aramaic is a likely candidate for the original source language is because Aramaic is the only language where verses rhyme.
Have you noticed the rhymes?
Just so you'll know, "Who are you?" isn't something that we ask around here.
Hey Love,
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in not knowing to whom I'm sending sensitive materials; materials that cost me much in academic training and work in graduate studies. If you'd like the "papers please" you'll either have to comply with my "introduction please" or be thirsty.
I am not familiar with the site you posted, but it looks like a typical Pesh_tta Primacy site and Victor Alexander seems to be a native "Assyrian". What do you know about him? Are you familiar with the arguments of an Aramaic substrate to the Christian Scriptures?
Bob
Bob, please forgive us if some of us are a bit skeptical. But Mr. Trimm has given us good cause to be skeptical on this particular topic. One would think if he had something genuine to offer, he himself would have more honesty and integrity.
Somebody please remind me why I should bother to learn Assyrian, Greek, Aramaic, etc.
Doesn't God's word speak for itself in English?
The "inerrancy" folks in another forum say that God "saw to it" or made sure that His word was transcribed correctly when first "breathed" to the writers. If that's the case, then why wouldn't God have seen to it that His word was translated correctly?
Did God intend the bible to be a puzzle, or so mysterious that most "regular folks" without college degrees wouldn't fully grasp the message? I don't think so.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in not knowing to whom I'm sending sensitive materials; materials that cost me much in academic training and work in graduate studies. If you'd like the "papers please" you'll either have to comply with my "introduction please" or be thirsty.
I am not familiar with the site you posted, but it looks like a typical Pesh_tta Primacy site and Victor Alexander seems to be a native "Assyrian". What do you know about him? Are you familiar with the arguments of an Aramaic substrate to the Christian Scriptures?
Bob
Jeepers, Bob, I don't even know what a substrate is.
You can start there.
I know as much as you do about Victor Alexander. His footnotes are worth the price of admission.
I won't press you further about your work but have you ever noticed the rhymes?
Well, I'm good thanks. I just didn't want you to take it too personally if some of the skepticism bled over onto you. If my memory is correct you have been around the cafe off and on for some time now. Some people may not know that and may assume you are trying to help James with his con job.
First issue of G'MIRA: A Journal of Semitic New Testament Studies
G'MIRA: is a non-sectarian electronic journal dedicated to the study of the Semitic origin of the New Testament. Articles may cover any of the any aspect of Semitic New Testament origins of all or parts of the NT including Hebrew or Aramaic NT Textual Criticism and Hebrew or Aramaic NT Source Criticism. G'MIRA will publish academic scholarly articles (full-length articles or shorter notes are both welcome), project reports, and book reviews in a web based electronic journal. G'MIRA will be published quarterly on the Web in .pdf format.
Gmira-list is a non-sectarian e-mail discussion group devoted to the academic field of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament studies. The list is associated with the electronic journal.
G’mira—An Aramaic word meaning “perfect, full-grown, mature”
Submissions to G'MIRA
All submissions of articles and project reports, as well as general inquiries, should be sent to the General Editor in electronic form (Word format). Submissions may be sent directly to the General Editor or they may be mailed on CD rom to the following address:
James S. Trimm
G'MIRA
P.O. Box 471
Hurst, TX 76053
USA
Paper copies of articles may also be submitted, providing that they accompany an electronic copy of the same article.
Or emailed as an attached file to cleartruth@yahoo.com with the Subject G'MIRA SUBMISSION.
The following fonts should be used:
For English and Latin use the Times New Roman font
For Hebrew use the SPTiberian font
For Syriac use the SPEdessa font
For Greek use the SPIonic font
All submissions are subject to a peer-review process by the G'MIRA Editorial Board.
I would just like to point out, for those who don't generally go to the 'About the Way' section, that James has now acknowledged that his "academic journal" has not been peer reviewed. If you want more information on that, go read his thread on his "G'MIR" in the About the Way section.
Well, I'm good thanks. I just didn't want you to take it too personally if some of the skepticism bled over onto you. If my memory is correct you have been around the cafe off and on for some time now. Some people may not know that and may assume you are trying to help James with his con job.
Bob has been clear about who he is so I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that he's in cahoots with James.
I don't see James as running a con job. He has a subject and doctrine he's passionate about.
To me, if someone wants to call himself Rabbi - which (if memory serves me) means teacher - and he is teaching - then I've got no gripe.
Although James hasn't been in TWI, the fact that he's had RECENT up close and personal contact with the higher ups of TWI says to me he's been sufficiently TWI-ised to talk about whatever he feels like talking about.
Also, in my opinion, the yammering about James' education is snobbish.
He's obviously intelligent and well read. The fact that he didn't go to the schools his detractors think he should have attended is a problem they have.
I think both Bob and James are important voices.
I'd like to see James, Bob, Invisible Danny and Bluetent (wherever he is) have an Assysian-Syriac-Aramaic discussion.
Bob has been clear about who he is so I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that he's in cahoots with James.
I don't see James as running a con job. He has a subject and doctrine he's passionate about.
To me, if someone wants to call himself Rabbi - which (if memory serves me) means teacher - and he is teaching - then I've got no gripe.
Although James hasn't been in TWI, the fact that he's had RECENT up close and personal contact with the higher ups of TWI says to me he's been sufficiently TWI-ised to talk about whatever he feels like talking about.
.
Okay, well forwarned is forearmed, etc. Nevermind that he calls himself Rabbi. Nevermind that he is another huckster with a "doctorate" from a non-accredited college. Nevermind that he calls his "academic journal" peer reviewed when in fact it has not been reviewed by anyone. Nevermind that he has appointed himself the 16th president of the Nazarenes (a sect that hasn't exited in 1,864 years give or take), much like Vic was going to teach us the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century). Nevermind that he and two of his buddies claim to be running a Yeshiva (Jewish School) even though he never even graduated from a Jewish Seminary. Is any of this starting to sound familiar to you Lovematters?
The fact that he has had a run-in with TWI does not mean he is full of honesty and integrity. And yes, he is free to talk about whatever he wants to talk about. And I am free to expose his con for what it is, unless the moderators decide to tell me otherwise.
And you are free to think of James how you choose to. You are free to look at the links that readily expose his con and dismiss them or you are free to ignore them altogether.
Jeepers, Bob, I don't even know what a substrate is.
You can start there.
I know as much as you do about Victor Alexander. His footnotes are worth the price of admission.
I won't press you further about your work but have you ever noticed the rhymes?
Love,
I apologize for the jargon. It's a residual from my skoolin'; I'm a skoler don't ya know.
Substrate is the underlying text that we "suppose" to be behind the Greek of the extant manuscripts (MMS). As you have read some of the posts above you'll note that there are some replying who feel that absence of a text means that there was no Aramaic original to the Christian Scriptures (note that I will stay away from the words "New Testament" feeling as I do that we are not in the New Covenant era (that promise was made to the "house of Judah and the house of Israel" which is not the "church, which is his (Jesus') body") as yet and that those words are a misnomer). Anyhoo, if someone believes in the inerrancy of Scripture (or even their "inspiration"...meaning we're OK using the term "Scripture" as opposed to "nice book" or "good literature from the ancient near east" or some such BS.) then the substate can be shown to exist behind the Greek.
You can "press" me all you'd like, I don't mind, but I just would like to know who you are. In one sense avatars are cool, but in another, I don't like to hide behind them (I'm hoping you don't either).
Also, there is rhyme in both Hebrew and Aramaic poetry though I haven't done a lot of work on it. Pesh_tta Primacy site really push that stuff, but my work has only been in the substrate (where I can see in the Greek that something wacky is happening (or in the English for that matter)). I'll then look at whether the Greek could have gone in more than one direction (something like how our work "bank" can mean "where you put your money" or "where you sit with your sweety and smooch and watch the water go by"...is this helping?). If the other direction makes perfect sense, it is possible (note how I keep using prevaricating words?) that there was an error in translation. Knowing a few of these I have drunk the koolaid of the Aramaic substrate. It really only takes one...really.
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Abigail
Okay, well forwarned is forearmed, etc. Nevermind that he calls himself Rabbi. Nevermind that he is another huckster with a "doctorate" from a non-accredited college. Nevermind that he calls his "a
Twinky
This and some other of James Trimm's topics are very interesting - but need to be in Doctrinal, surely, not in About The Way?
Tom
Point to note here for those who think this argument is circular because James has pasted this reponse before: James said he would post something new (unpasted) if anyone would post an objection not
roberterasmus
Tom,
The hypothesis is found in numerous scholarly articles in the early 20th century where the debate was hottest and heaviest. Charles Cutler Torrey (out of Yale) and his ilk had the best proofs. Their writing usually carries the requirement of knowing the languages (as in the scholarly world it is the height of borishness to make it easy...). Go figure.
But I'll try to dig out one or two and PDF them. Contact me within the forum and I'll give you my home email if you'd like.
Now, there are also books written by Torrey and others (full length jobies that will really put you to sleep), and I'd avoid the Pesh__ta Primacy Peoples stuff. They just confuse the issue with Syriac, which was not the original language of Jesus, contrary to George Lamsa, Rocco Errico and many others.
As I mentioned above, I've written articles on the subject itself (with the layman in mind, BTW) and could be persuaded to PDF one (at least).
Regards,
Bob
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James Trimm
First issue of G'MIRA: A Journal of Semitic New Testament Studies
G'MIRA: is a non-sectarian electronic journal dedicated to the study of the Semitic origin of the New Testament. Articles may cover any of the any aspect of Semitic New Testament origins of all or parts of the NT including Hebrew or Aramaic NT Textual Criticism and Hebrew or Aramaic NT Source Criticism. G'MIRA will publish academic scholarly articles (full-length articles or shorter notes are both welcome), project reports, and book reviews in a web based electronic journal. G'MIRA will be published quarterly on the Web in .pdf format.
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8959000/8959636/1/print/GMIRA_2.pdf
Gmira-list is a non-sectarian e-mail discussion group devoted to the academic field of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament studies. The list is associated with the electronic journal.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gmira-list
G’mira—An Aramaic word meaning “perfect, full-grown, mature”
Submissions to G'MIRA
All submissions of articles and project reports, as well as general inquiries, should be sent to the General Editor in electronic form (Word format). Submissions may be sent directly to the General Editor or they may be mailed on CD rom to the following address:
James S. Trimm
G'MIRA
P.O. Box 471
Hurst, TX 76053
USA
Paper copies of articles may also be submitted, providing that they accompany an electronic copy of the same article.
Or emailed as an attached file to cleartruth@yahoo.com with the Subject G'MIRA SUBMISSION.
The following fonts should be used:
For English and Latin use the Times New Roman font
For Hebrew use the SPTiberian font
For Syriac use the SPEdessa font
For Greek use the SPIonic font
All submissions are subject to a peer-review process by the G'MIRA Editorial Board.
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WordWolf
Of course, there's peers and there's peers...
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year2027
God first
thanks James S. Trimm
is this what talking about
with love and a holy kiss Roy
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
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soul searcher
I don't think so Roy but thanks for posting that anyway. SS likes the hip-shake thang.
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lovematters
Cough it up, Bob.
Roy,
Gee you're great for giving us G-Mira.
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year2027
God first
thanks soul searcher and lovematters
thanks you two
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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roberterasmus
Love,
What is your interest in these matters?
Just askin'.
Bob
And who are you, BTW?
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lovematters
Bob,
I'm interested in Aramaic studies. That's why I'm reading the thread and doing the papers please thing with you.
Are you familiar with This online Aramaic Translation?
The author has said that one of the reasons Aramaic is a likely candidate for the original source language is because Aramaic is the only language where verses rhyme.
Have you noticed the rhymes?
Just so you'll know, "Who are you?" isn't something that we ask around here.
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year2027
God first
thanks lovematters
http://www.learnassyrian.com/home.html
you can learn here and others are here
http://www.biblicalgreek.org/grammar/
http://www.milingua.com/
there many places you go to learn
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Abigail
Bob, please forgive us if some of us are a bit skeptical. But Mr. Trimm has given us good cause to be skeptical on this particular topic. One would think if he had something genuine to offer, he himself would have more honesty and integrity.
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lovematters
Thanks Roy!
I just added Learn Assyrian to my bookmark.
Heck, I'll probably be rattling off Assyrian in no time flat. :)
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roberterasmus
Hey Love,
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in not knowing to whom I'm sending sensitive materials; materials that cost me much in academic training and work in graduate studies. If you'd like the "papers please" you'll either have to comply with my "introduction please" or be thirsty.
I am not familiar with the site you posted, but it looks like a typical Pesh_tta Primacy site and Victor Alexander seems to be a native "Assyrian". What do you know about him? Are you familiar with the arguments of an Aramaic substrate to the Christian Scriptures?
Bob
Abigail,
I concur. Is there anything I can help with?
Bob
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soul searcher
Somebody please remind me why I should bother to learn Assyrian, Greek, Aramaic, etc.
Doesn't God's word speak for itself in English?
The "inerrancy" folks in another forum say that God "saw to it" or made sure that His word was transcribed correctly when first "breathed" to the writers. If that's the case, then why wouldn't God have seen to it that His word was translated correctly?
Did God intend the bible to be a puzzle, or so mysterious that most "regular folks" without college degrees wouldn't fully grasp the message? I don't think so.
Just my useless opinion.
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lovematters
Jeepers, Bob, I don't even know what a substrate is.
You can start there.
I know as much as you do about Victor Alexander. His footnotes are worth the price of admission.
I won't press you further about your work but have you ever noticed the rhymes?
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year2027
God first
thanks lovematters
thanks
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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year2027
God first
thanks soul searcher
I used to study Greek but after a while i saw a wasted of my time
but some want to try their luck so I say go for it
but for me the too many books that God hand on them
like the one I reading now
The Life and Doctrines of Jacob Boehme
by Franz Hartmann
[1891]
God Word as must as the others
it translated from German to English
An anthology of the German Christian mystic's thought.
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Abigail
Well, I'm good thanks. I just didn't want you to take it too personally if some of the skepticism bled over onto you. If my memory is correct you have been around the cafe off and on for some time now. Some people may not know that and may assume you are trying to help James with his con job.
I would just like to point out, for those who don't generally go to the 'About the Way' section, that James has now acknowledged that his "academic journal" has not been peer reviewed. If you want more information on that, go read his thread on his "G'MIR" in the About the Way section.
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lovematters
Bob has been clear about who he is so I don't know how anyone could come to the conclusion that he's in cahoots with James.
I don't see James as running a con job. He has a subject and doctrine he's passionate about.
To me, if someone wants to call himself Rabbi - which (if memory serves me) means teacher - and he is teaching - then I've got no gripe.
Although James hasn't been in TWI, the fact that he's had RECENT up close and personal contact with the higher ups of TWI says to me he's been sufficiently TWI-ised to talk about whatever he feels like talking about.
Also, in my opinion, the yammering about James' education is snobbish.
He's obviously intelligent and well read. The fact that he didn't go to the schools his detractors think he should have attended is a problem they have.
I think both Bob and James are important voices.
I'd like to see James, Bob, Invisible Danny and Bluetent (wherever he is) have an Assysian-Syriac-Aramaic discussion.
.
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Abigail
Okay, well forwarned is forearmed, etc. Nevermind that he calls himself Rabbi. Nevermind that he is another huckster with a "doctorate" from a non-accredited college. Nevermind that he calls his "academic journal" peer reviewed when in fact it has not been reviewed by anyone. Nevermind that he has appointed himself the 16th president of the Nazarenes (a sect that hasn't exited in 1,864 years give or take), much like Vic was going to teach us the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century). Nevermind that he and two of his buddies claim to be running a Yeshiva (Jewish School) even though he never even graduated from a Jewish Seminary. Is any of this starting to sound familiar to you Lovematters?
The fact that he has had a run-in with TWI does not mean he is full of honesty and integrity. And yes, he is free to talk about whatever he wants to talk about. And I am free to expose his con for what it is, unless the moderators decide to tell me otherwise.
And you are free to think of James how you choose to. You are free to look at the links that readily expose his con and dismiss them or you are free to ignore them altogether.
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lovematters
I've vetted James as much as you have.
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Abigail
Cool.
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geisha779
Does anyone know anything about the Jesuit who helped Mel Gibson with the Passion script? Is he some kind of expert in the field? Does he publish?
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roberterasmus
Love,
I apologize for the jargon. It's a residual from my skoolin'; I'm a skoler don't ya know.
Substrate is the underlying text that we "suppose" to be behind the Greek of the extant manuscripts (MMS). As you have read some of the posts above you'll note that there are some replying who feel that absence of a text means that there was no Aramaic original to the Christian Scriptures (note that I will stay away from the words "New Testament" feeling as I do that we are not in the New Covenant era (that promise was made to the "house of Judah and the house of Israel" which is not the "church, which is his (Jesus') body") as yet and that those words are a misnomer). Anyhoo, if someone believes in the inerrancy of Scripture (or even their "inspiration"...meaning we're OK using the term "Scripture" as opposed to "nice book" or "good literature from the ancient near east" or some such BS.) then the substate can be shown to exist behind the Greek.
You can "press" me all you'd like, I don't mind, but I just would like to know who you are. In one sense avatars are cool, but in another, I don't like to hide behind them (I'm hoping you don't either).
Also, there is rhyme in both Hebrew and Aramaic poetry though I haven't done a lot of work on it. Pesh_tta Primacy site really push that stuff, but my work has only been in the substrate (where I can see in the Greek that something wacky is happening (or in the English for that matter)). I'll then look at whether the Greek could have gone in more than one direction (something like how our work "bank" can mean "where you put your money" or "where you sit with your sweety and smooch and watch the water go by"...is this helping?). If the other direction makes perfect sense, it is possible (note how I keep using prevaricating words?) that there was an error in translation. Knowing a few of these I have drunk the koolaid of the Aramaic substrate. It really only takes one...really.
Bob
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