See, this is the kind of stuff that people who have never been in a control oriented group have a hard time understanding when they say, "Why didn't you just lie about such and such?"
I remember meeting Wierwille for the first time. Prior to meeting him, these kind of thoughts ran through my mind. But, as I shook his hand, that first time, I couldn't help feeling that he was just a hollow shell with a smile mask attached. Don't know if that makes sense. Maybe I've seen too many Twilite Zone reruns. LOL
Seeing I didn't want to lie, I just kept my mouth shut and tried to keep from being in a position of having to relate anything to the uppers, or them relate anything to me.
At least it worked well when I went through with it.. Only I always ended up telling them something and realizing I was an idiot for telling on myself.. Of course they wouldn't agree with anything I thought or did.. Always had to be their way.. Fine, shut up, don't talk again..
I remember meeting Wierwille for the first time. Prior to meeting him, these kind of thoughts ran through my mind. But, as I shook his hand, that first time, I couldn't help feeling that he was just a hollow shell with a smile mask attached. Don't know if that makes sense. Maybe I've seen too many Twilite Zone reruns. LOL
Revelation.. There it is.. See... God was talking to you.. Same way he was telling everyone else about your mistakes...
See, this is the kind of stuff that people who have never been in a control oriented group have a hard time understanding when they say, "Why didn't you just lie about such and such?"
Now that I think of it, Theodore Sturgeon wrote a short story with a similar concept called The Other Celia.
Way back when I was a mindless zealot and took Craig's advanced Class; I was terrified / excited to shake his hand. I somehow thought he would know all about me and pronounce some special designation on me. I suppose if he had it would have been "dupe." Talk about anti-climatic. I got the impression that he would rather be someplace else than shaking hands with plebes.
Turns out he was probably in a hurry to go get his turtle waxed.
I alwys was in constant fear that my secret sins would be revealed to upper leadership... Not a pleasant feeling at all, but when you are involved from a kid sometimes you just buy into this stuff. And I was always the kind to say exactly the wrong thing which would get me the old way-corpse-stare as a response. You know the look. They stare at you like they can see your every flaw... Or maybe it was "does not compute"... I was never sure if it was just that they didn't understand me, or if they were getting revelation.
Usually happened when I made a joke, come to think of it.
I remember meeting Wierwille for the first time. Prior to meeting him, these kind of thoughts ran through my mind. But, as I shook his hand, that first time, I couldn't help feeling that he was just a hollow shell with a smile mask attached. Don't know if that makes sense. Maybe I've seen too many Twilite Zone reruns. LOL
your response sounds like the way a lot of people describe feeling when they meet a psychopath... I've read that this response is instinctual, a warning that you are in the presence of a predator. Makes sense to me!! I'll see if I can find out where I read it and give some documentation.
And then...... I started feeling guilty for having that reaction to meeting "Da Man of Gawd". Plus, I found myself wondering if he "sensed" what was going through my mind.......convoluted stuff this Way business was.
"They can't read your mind, but God can give leadership revelation that you are lying or that you haven't done your required assignment, etc."
Anyone else remember that stuff?
For affect, they would punctuate it with the record from Acts about Ananias and Sapphira. You know, where they lied about how much they were giving the church. The holy spirit told Peter and Peter spoke it out and they died. Don't let this happen TO YOU!!
For affect, they would punctuate it with the record from Acts about Ananias and Sapphira. You know, where they lied about how much they were giving the church. The holy spirit told Peter and Peter spoke it out and they died. Don't let this happen TO YOU!!
Kinda got the double whammy with that one. First, don't lie to the MOG. Second, you better tithe (ABS) or else.
But don't forget......"We sure do love you." :wacko:
Seeing I didn't want to lie, I just kept my mouth shut and tried to keep from being in a position of having to relate anything to the uppers, or them relate anything to me.
At least it worked well when I went through with it.. Only I always ended up telling them something and realizing I was an idiot for telling on myself.. Of course they wouldn't agree with anything I thought or did.. Always had to be their way.. Fine, shut up, don't talk again..
Yep. Dealt with this too. In the end I became pretty good at fending off interrogations. Learned to recognize the loaded questions and kept and simply say "I don't know for sure." Of course some of the slicker ones would rephrase the questions and ask them again, only to receive the same answer. I remember a few of my leadership would try the uncomfortable silence approach, hoping that I would start babbling along. Shutting up usually made this backfire.
Does anyone else find it odd that we had to learn how to fend off interrogation techniques to goto "church?"
I usually fell for the silence and ended up babbling. Towards the end I just would sit quietly during interrogation sessions and not say anything, which drove them CRAZY. I got the idea from when Jesus Christ didn't answer his accusers. It sure worked. And the look on their faces was priceless...
(You know who I speak of, OldSkool. )
Later the ranking leader came back to me after one face melting where I sat quietly without saying a word... He had come to the conclusion I had done nothing wrong but wanted me to apologize to the other leader. I asked him what I was supposed to apologize for... he had no answer, but said I should do it for peace in the household. I told him that it would be LYING if I apologized when I had done nothing wrong. He pulled me aside three more times to get me to apologize - I never did. Even though he was my coordinator, the guy never spoke to me again unless he had to.
To answer the first question. IF there was really a reason the person had to know, then yes God could let someone know that the other was lying.
But all to often people think there is a reason they need to know...and there isn't. God loves us and I really do believe that He is much more interested in our heart than the stupid things we do by mistake. Most of the time hen someone says "God will tell me if you lie..." is an effort to control by fear.
not THAT long ago, i needed help -- healing, if you will. someone told me to contact an ex-wayfer which i did because of my great need. the first thing he said in his healing ceremony is that i might not like what he has to say. i said "forget it, you're full of sheet because you're certainly not going to tell me god will hurt me" -- something along those lines, anyway
the first thing he said in his healing ceremony is that i might not like what he has to say.
Now that is certainly something we never can quote Jesus as having said. No, he just had compassion and ministered by speaking to the particular problem that it be removed, healed, etc. Eh, but what did he know...?....
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OldSkool
Yep. But, mind you, God isn't a tattle tale.
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waysider
And even though you found out they really got the info from Johnny Tattletale, it was Gawd who gave them revvy to ask Johnny in the first place.
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OldSkool
Yep.
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waysider
See, this is the kind of stuff that people who have never been in a control oriented group have a hard time understanding when they say, "Why didn't you just lie about such and such?"
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OldSkool
Oh, it took me several years to get the balls to lie about things. And it was always in the back of my mind...
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waysider
I remember meeting Wierwille for the first time. Prior to meeting him, these kind of thoughts ran through my mind. But, as I shook his hand, that first time, I couldn't help feeling that he was just a hollow shell with a smile mask attached. Don't know if that makes sense. Maybe I've seen too many Twilite Zone reruns. LOL
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TrustAndObey
Seeing I didn't want to lie, I just kept my mouth shut and tried to keep from being in a position of having to relate anything to the uppers, or them relate anything to me.
At least it worked well when I went through with it.. Only I always ended up telling them something and realizing I was an idiot for telling on myself.. Of course they wouldn't agree with anything I thought or did.. Always had to be their way.. Fine, shut up, don't talk again..
Revelation.. There it is.. See... God was talking to you.. Same way he was telling everyone else about your mistakes...
Well, it sounded good..
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waysider
Now that I think of it, Theodore Sturgeon wrote a short story with a similar concept called The Other Celia.
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OldSkool
Way back when I was a mindless zealot and took Craig's advanced Class; I was terrified / excited to shake his hand. I somehow thought he would know all about me and pronounce some special designation on me. I suppose if he had it would have been "dupe." Talk about anti-climatic. I got the impression that he would rather be someplace else than shaking hands with plebes.
Turns out he was probably in a hurry to go get his turtle waxed.
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waysider
Or perhaps he'd been Simon(the sorcerer)ized.
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OldSkool
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JavaJane
I alwys was in constant fear that my secret sins would be revealed to upper leadership... Not a pleasant feeling at all, but when you are involved from a kid sometimes you just buy into this stuff. And I was always the kind to say exactly the wrong thing which would get me the old way-corpse-stare as a response. You know the look. They stare at you like they can see your every flaw... Or maybe it was "does not compute"... I was never sure if it was just that they didn't understand me, or if they were getting revelation.
Usually happened when I made a joke, come to think of it.
your response sounds like the way a lot of people describe feeling when they meet a psychopath... I've read that this response is instinctual, a warning that you are in the presence of a predator. Makes sense to me!! I'll see if I can find out where I read it and give some documentation.
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waysider
And then...... I started feeling guilty for having that reaction to meeting "Da Man of Gawd". Plus, I found myself wondering if he "sensed" what was going through my mind.......convoluted stuff this Way business was.
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Broken Arrow
For affect, they would punctuate it with the record from Acts about Ananias and Sapphira. You know, where they lied about how much they were giving the church. The holy spirit told Peter and Peter spoke it out and they died. Don't let this happen TO YOU!!
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waysider
Kinda got the double whammy with that one. First, don't lie to the MOG. Second, you better tithe (ABS) or else.
But don't forget......"We sure do love you." :wacko:
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OldSkool
Yep. Dealt with this too. In the end I became pretty good at fending off interrogations. Learned to recognize the loaded questions and kept and simply say "I don't know for sure." Of course some of the slicker ones would rephrase the questions and ask them again, only to receive the same answer. I remember a few of my leadership would try the uncomfortable silence approach, hoping that I would start babbling along. Shutting up usually made this backfire.
Does anyone else find it odd that we had to learn how to fend off interrogation techniques to goto "church?"
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JavaJane
I usually fell for the silence and ended up babbling. Towards the end I just would sit quietly during interrogation sessions and not say anything, which drove them CRAZY. I got the idea from when Jesus Christ didn't answer his accusers. It sure worked. And the look on their faces was priceless...
(You know who I speak of, OldSkool.
)
Later the ranking leader came back to me after one face melting where I sat quietly without saying a word... He had come to the conclusion I had done nothing wrong but wanted me to apologize to the other leader. I asked him what I was supposed to apologize for... he had no answer, but said I should do it for peace in the household. I told him that it would be LYING if I apologized when I had done nothing wrong. He pulled me aside three more times to get me to apologize - I never did. Even though he was my coordinator, the guy never spoke to me again unless he had to.
What a douche.
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OldSkool
Yep. Shallow pond that one is.
Yep, Douchimus Maximus!
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Keith
To answer the first question. IF there was really a reason the person had to know, then yes God could let someone know that the other was lying.
But all to often people think there is a reason they need to know...and there isn't. God loves us and I really do believe that He is much more interested in our heart than the stupid things we do by mistake. Most of the time hen someone says "God will tell me if you lie..." is an effort to control by fear.
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excathedra
not THAT long ago, i needed help -- healing, if you will. someone told me to contact an ex-wayfer which i did because of my great need. the first thing he said in his healing ceremony is that i might not like what he has to say. i said "forget it, you're full of sheet because you're certainly not going to tell me god will hurt me" -- something along those lines, anyway
lol
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OldSkool
Now that is certainly something we never can quote Jesus as having said. No, he just had compassion and ministered by speaking to the particular problem that it be removed, healed, etc. Eh, but what did he know...?....
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