is twi loonier, just as loony, or less loony but still crazy?
The two leaders you just described (and perhaps the rest of the leadership) sound like sick individuals, but it seems to me that most of the members were sane -- just maybe misled. (I'm only going by the individuals I've gotten to know in this forum, all of whom seem like very smart people.)
. .. I celebrate anytime someone leaves. However, I really have had a hard time believing that people were literally being asked to relinquish their daughters in order to service leadership and that anyone actually complied. . . .
It's a wayfer parent's dream that they're offspring please vpw's vision. Isn't that what corps was about?
IMO It's all about the grooming, the steady, deliberate erosion of a wayfer's morals.
We all started at a certain place. Among the ones who could maintain a steady, loving, or authoritative appearance their were doubtlessly a few victims and/or abusers who could be fast tracked straight to the top of Wayworld because they could be counted to jump in the midst of the abuse.
Among others it was perhaps a steady and deliberate wearing down of standards eventually leading to yielding to temptation.
From the groomers standpoint a woman or a man that could be corrupted themselves would certainly be more willing to allow their spouses and even their children partake in the carnage.
I think such things have proven to be fairly commonplace in human history leading to even worse tragedies. It's just that for me, what the Way and the splinters are is something that I take personally.
The two leaders you just described (and perhaps the rest of the leadership) sound like sick individuals, but it seems to me that most of the members were sane -- just maybe misled. (I'm only going by the individuals I've gotten to know in this forum, all of whom seem like very smart people.)
Ah, I described 3 leaders, one leader, his successor, and that person's successor.
I didn't mention any names, but they should be plainly obvious who they described.
Oh, and that was "off-the-cuff". I didn't compile a list off any of them, I just
thought a moment and typed. That's some of the evil things each has done
OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. A more thorough list would include much more frightening
things like suggesting it's ok to molest one's own daughters and implying it's
Good point. Although...I always thought the Branch Davidian cult was downright loony.
Unlike TWI? I would like to think we weren't as bad as the Davidians but, anymore, I'm not so sure. You take certain people, isolate them and tell them things over and again, add a little bit of mental pressure, who knows what pops out? VP just went in a different direction than David Koresh.
According to Karl Kahler's book, The Cult that Snapped, TWI had a hidden arsenal. Both Kahler, and also Kristen Skedgell in her book Losing the Way, list 2 different mock concentration camps; once with some 5th Corps, and once with some 8th Corps. VP wanted to see who was "tough". Here various tactics were used to frighten people including shooting military like weapons in the air and telling people they would be shot if they did not obey. They were subjected to prisoner-like conditions. People were systematically frightened, treated like prisoners, and verbally intimidated. In both cases there were people who agreed to act as the captors who would do the intimidating. What else would people have done if Wierwille requested it? I dunno. I would like to think I had at least some shreds of independent thought.
It's a wayfer parent's dream that they're offspring please vpw's vision. Isn't that what corps was about?
No, that isn't what Corps was all about for most of us. I understand how you might get that impression. We actually thought, most of us, that we were fulfilling God's vision on this earth. It was not my vision that someday my daughter would grow up to have sex with a top leader. I wanted her to grow up and "stand for The Word". I didn't say I wanted her to grow up and fulfill the physical needs of some man.
haven't read so sue me
Huh? What's that supposed to mean? Not he rest of your post, but this little quip, what's up with this?
No, that isn't what Corps was all about for most of us. I understand how you might get that impression. We actually thought, most of us, that we were fulfilling God's vision on this earth. It was not my vision that someday my daughter would grow up to have sex with a top leader. I wanted her to grow up and "stand for The Word". I didn't say I wanted her to grow up and fulfill the physical needs of some man.
Huh? What's that supposed to mean? Not he rest of your post, but this little quip, what's up with this?
I think she meant she hadn't read the entire thread, but was just responding to the title of it - & etc.,...
Most of te Ex WC People I've met were much older than me and were pretty nice people (that my dad trusted). I haven't met any of the Rivenbark Era ones, But then again there aren't as many of those to meet, and most of the Martindale Era Ones were marked and avoided (a lot of them for not saying the pledge of alleigance to the 4-Hed)
This is just my opinion. But back in the day, when the ministry was such a big deal and tens of thousands of people were involved, I can see how people could get ALL CAUGHT UP in it. And there were hundreds or thousands of WOW's all over the country promoting them!
Today they are perhaps the only religious type organization with an established website - whose "About Us" page has no way to contact them.
I'm Glad my Dad left, and I didn't have to "grow-up" there. I am.
Hi, nice to meet you. There, now you have met at least one...feel special yet? .. (we are few ) Of course it was during the reign of The Forehead that I was "called" (barf) in to the way corps.
This is just my opinion. But back in the day, when the ministry was such a big deal and tens of thousands of people were involved, I can see how people could get ALL CAUGHT UP in it.
I can only speak for myself in this regard. When I first became involved with the way ministry I had a lot of positive changes in my life from prayer, bible study, meditation - in short I had the very beginnings of a relationship with God and Christ. I cannot deny, even to this day, the goodness of God I experienced at first. A person doesn't need the way international for this sort of thing - it's between God and his children. Yet the way international's modus operandi is to insert themselves in the middle and take credit for it.
So, like the young, naive dummy I was at the time - I believed it. But I was so excited that my life had changed so dramatically, that prayers were being answered, that I was able to just quit drugs that I had been addicted to for several years. I really believe that a person is extremely vulnerable to the wolf in sheep's clothing during this time. And sure enough the wolves told me that I needed to commit myself to the ministry that taught me God's Word. The sad thing is the more of "God's" word they taught me the less my relationship with God became and the greater my relationship to the way ministry grew.
I decided that if God was willing to help a person like me, and I was NOT a good person, then I would be willing to go into the way corps. And so I went through the classes and programs, ever indoctrinated, ever steeped in way international legalism, ever swimming in guilt and fear - and my relationship with God was non-existent and in it's place was blind obedience to the way international's board of directors.
Gen-2 - It's a bait and switch. The way international are supplanters. They take credit for the working of God and demand praise, loyalty, money, and from some, their life indentured in "Christian" service. Sadly, some folks never make it out, they spend their entire lives encased in what I described and raise their children the same, and onwards. I can say in retrospect, the methods are extremely subtle. And I would say beyond the shadow of a doubt worthy of the greatest damnation. I firmly believe that people who are supposed to be ministers (priests, pastors, preachers, etc.), and use the congregation for gain, have violated a sacred trust - proving themselves to be the lowest scum! And that's not to say that every way corps or person involved with the way ministry is the lowest scum...no, not at all. I'll stop here for now.
Unlike TWI? I would like to think we weren't as bad as the Davidians but, anymore, I'm not so sure. You take certain people, isolate them and tell them things over and again, add a little bit of mental pressure, who knows what pops out? VP just went in a different direction than David Koresh.
Well, I've only known one (ex-)Way person in real life (in addition to the few I've gotten to know here) and she is definitely not loony. Misguided, stubborn and a little crazy, perhaps, but not loony. (ha-ha! just kidding, _____, if you're reading)
It was not my vision that someday my daughter would grow up to have sex with a top leader. I wanted her to grow up and "stand for The Word". I didn't say I wanted her to grow up and fulfill the physical needs of some man.
Of course not, simply because your a normal person with a moral sense. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that my friend never, ever would have "handed over her daughter" to some creep.
God almighty, just the thought of it gets my blood boiling.
The sad thing is the more of "God's" word they taught me the less my relationship with God became and the greater my relationship to the way ministry grew.
that is a very sad thing. i found that to be my experience as well
ps. gen is right. i was just saying i didn't read the thread -- I just ansered -- and in the past some people have not appreciated that
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soul searcher
Um, wut?
"Hand over her teenage daughters." Hmm...what would that have entailed?
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WordWolf
I could easily see someone WARNED that they'd have to hand over their daughters
if they stayed, which they might well have had to do.
I don't see twi people telling them so in plain words, however. They would have
couched the whole thing in flowery phrases, and kept the parents in the dark
entirely.
Then again, some parents handed over underaged girls when David Koresh said they
were supposed to have sex with him- he phrased it in a much more flowery manner,
of course....
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soul searcher
Good point. Although...I always thought the Branch Davidian cult was downright loony.
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OldSkool
We've come for your daughter Chuck.
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WordWolf
A guy plagiarizes a bunch of Christians and claims to have revelation unique for the past
2000 years. He hints around and gets people to think he's the closest thing to the
12 apostles to walk the earth. He chain-smokes and boozes it up-and gets people to
buy plenty of his favorite liquor and nicotine for when he comes to town.
He calls all other Christian leaders living "inferior" to himself while he tries to
find Christians who are fine with orgies, and has rationalized out for himself that
God is FINE with orgies. He lacks any experience in ANY program, but sets up one where
people pay tuition to perform manual labor and eat little, and that cheap food.
He has the program entrants write an autobiography, and uses the autobiographies to
help select which women to molest and rape. He claims he's never been sick or had a
headache one single day of his life. He claims to have taken "ALL" the classes Moody
offers- but their registrar's office has never HEARD of him signing up for a single CLASS.
After decades of DAILY alcohol use and tobacco smoke, he gets cancer- which he blames
on sitting in a room with bright lights over a decade earlier and says it has nothing to
do with anything else. He claims people can believe away all sorts of illnesses and
problems, yet manages to convince people that his inability to wave away his own fatal
illness does not reflect an inability of himself to believe.
For his successor, he groomed a man loyal to him beyond all reason, and made him twofold
the child of hell he himself was, skipping over competent leaders and less stupid ones
to do so. His successor becomes even loonier, saying the Pope owns an aircraft carrier
and will begin forcing conversions to Catholicism at threat of murder. He announces
that aome people (homosexuals) were worthy of being murdered, and that he'd be happy to
do so if he were allowed. He also treated the women of the organization as his personal
harem.
His own successor said staff should not own pets- while owning a cat. She consented to
the purge of homosexuals from the group while renting a residence to homosexuals,
and sleeps in the same bed with another woman when traveling on vacation- all while
twi still condemns homosexuals. Staff still live in basically walk-in closets with
facilities no better than low-grade college dorms- while she says they live with
"many privileges."
If the Branch Davidian cult was downright loony,
is twi loonier, just as loony, or less loony but still crazy?
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soul searcher
LOL That was good. Love that movie.
I didn't want to make light of this, but since you already did...
Remember John Belushi in the restaurant scene in "The Blues Brothers"? ([evil voice]: How much for the little girls?)
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soul searcher
That's quite a devastating summation.
The two leaders you just described (and perhaps the rest of the leadership) sound like sick individuals, but it seems to me that most of the members were sane -- just maybe misled. (I'm only going by the individuals I've gotten to know in this forum, all of whom seem like very smart people.)
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Bolshevik
It's a wayfer parent's dream that they're offspring please vpw's vision. Isn't that what corps was about?
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JeffSjo
IMO It's all about the grooming, the steady, deliberate erosion of a wayfer's morals.
We all started at a certain place. Among the ones who could maintain a steady, loving, or authoritative appearance their were doubtlessly a few victims and/or abusers who could be fast tracked straight to the top of Wayworld because they could be counted to jump in the midst of the abuse.
Among others it was perhaps a steady and deliberate wearing down of standards eventually leading to yielding to temptation.
From the groomers standpoint a woman or a man that could be corrupted themselves would certainly be more willing to allow their spouses and even their children partake in the carnage.
I think such things have proven to be fairly commonplace in human history leading to even worse tragedies. It's just that for me, what the Way and the splinters are is something that I take personally.
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WordWolf
Ah, I described 3 leaders, one leader, his successor, and that person's successor.
I didn't mention any names, but they should be plainly obvious who they described.
Oh, and that was "off-the-cuff". I didn't compile a list off any of them, I just
thought a moment and typed. That's some of the evil things each has done
OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. A more thorough list would include much more frightening
things like suggesting it's ok to molest one's own daughters and implying it's
something he'd already done, and so on.
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soul searcher
Ugh! The horror, the horror.
It's a good dthing I read this post before lunch and not after.
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OldSkool
That's just gross.
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excathedra
haven't read so sue me
if you were a parent who was assaulted by vp for instance
and you had a lovely teenager
why would yu think it would be different for her
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Broken Arrow
Unlike TWI? I would like to think we weren't as bad as the Davidians but, anymore, I'm not so sure. You take certain people, isolate them and tell them things over and again, add a little bit of mental pressure, who knows what pops out? VP just went in a different direction than David Koresh.
According to Karl Kahler's book, The Cult that Snapped, TWI had a hidden arsenal. Both Kahler, and also Kristen Skedgell in her book Losing the Way, list 2 different mock concentration camps; once with some 5th Corps, and once with some 8th Corps. VP wanted to see who was "tough". Here various tactics were used to frighten people including shooting military like weapons in the air and telling people they would be shot if they did not obey. They were subjected to prisoner-like conditions. People were systematically frightened, treated like prisoners, and verbally intimidated. In both cases there were people who agreed to act as the captors who would do the intimidating. What else would people have done if Wierwille requested it? I dunno. I would like to think I had at least some shreds of independent thought.
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Broken Arrow
No, that isn't what Corps was all about for most of us. I understand how you might get that impression. We actually thought, most of us, that we were fulfilling God's vision on this earth. It was not my vision that someday my daughter would grow up to have sex with a top leader. I wanted her to grow up and "stand for The Word". I didn't say I wanted her to grow up and fulfill the physical needs of some man.
Huh? What's that supposed to mean? Not he rest of your post, but this little quip, what's up with this?
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Gen-2
I think she meant she hadn't read the entire thread, but was just responding to the title of it - & etc.,...
Most of te Ex WC People I've met were much older than me and were pretty nice people (that my dad trusted). I haven't met any of the Rivenbark Era ones, But then again there aren't as many of those to meet, and most of the Martindale Era Ones were marked and avoided (a lot of them for not saying the pledge of alleigance to the 4-Hed)
This is just my opinion. But back in the day, when the ministry was such a big deal and tens of thousands of people were involved, I can see how people could get ALL CAUGHT UP in it. And there were hundreds or thousands of WOW's all over the country promoting them!
Today they are perhaps the only religious type organization with an established website - whose "About Us" page has no way to contact them.
I'm Glad my Dad left, and I didn't have to "grow-up" there. I am.
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OldSkool
Hi, nice to meet you. There, now you have met at least one...feel special yet? ..
(we are few 
) Of course it was during the reign of The Forehead that I was "called" (barf) in to the way corps.
I can only speak for myself in this regard. When I first became involved with the way ministry I had a lot of positive changes in my life from prayer, bible study, meditation - in short I had the very beginnings of a relationship with God and Christ. I cannot deny, even to this day, the goodness of God I experienced at first. A person doesn't need the way international for this sort of thing - it's between God and his children. Yet the way international's modus operandi is to insert themselves in the middle and take credit for it.
So, like the young, naive dummy I was at the time - I believed it. But I was so excited that my life had changed so dramatically, that prayers were being answered, that I was able to just quit drugs that I had been addicted to for several years. I really believe that a person is extremely vulnerable to the wolf in sheep's clothing during this time. And sure enough the wolves told me that I needed to commit myself to the ministry that taught me God's Word. The sad thing is the more of "God's" word they taught me the less my relationship with God became and the greater my relationship to the way ministry grew.
I decided that if God was willing to help a person like me, and I was NOT a good person, then I would be willing to go into the way corps. And so I went through the classes and programs, ever indoctrinated, ever steeped in way international legalism, ever swimming in guilt and fear - and my relationship with God was non-existent and in it's place was blind obedience to the way international's board of directors.
Gen-2 - It's a bait and switch. The way international are supplanters. They take credit for the working of God and demand praise, loyalty, money, and from some, their life indentured in "Christian" service. Sadly, some folks never make it out, they spend their entire lives encased in what I described and raise their children the same, and onwards. I can say in retrospect, the methods are extremely subtle. And I would say beyond the shadow of a doubt worthy of the greatest damnation. I firmly believe that people who are supposed to be ministers (priests, pastors, preachers, etc.), and use the congregation for gain, have violated a sacred trust - proving themselves to be the lowest scum! And that's not to say that every way corps or person involved with the way ministry is the lowest scum...no, not at all. I'll stop here for now.
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soul searcher
Well, I've only known one (ex-)Way person in real life (in addition to the few I've gotten to know here) and she is definitely not loony. Misguided, stubborn and a little crazy, perhaps, but not loony. (ha-ha! just kidding, _____, if you're reading)
Of course not, simply because your a normal person with a moral sense. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that my friend never, ever would have "handed over her daughter" to some creep.
God almighty, just the thought of it gets my blood boiling.
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soul searcher
Nice post, OldSkool. Thanks for sharing.
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OldSkool
Yer welcome!
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excathedra
that is a very sad thing. i found that to be my experience as well
ps. gen is right. i was just saying i didn't read the thread -- I just ansered -- and in the past some people have not appreciated that
sowwy
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