The Wonder of it All

[Gen-2]

Sort of a different tack to doctrine, I suppose.

As many of you here know, my connection to The Way stems from the fact that my father (who has since passed away) was involved in it. I didn't start talking till I was seven (I was wired differently - from the factory)... ...so that by the time I was up and running, dad had already gotten out of The Way - circa 1987.

But I was reading his Diary, if you can call it that, that he kept. This one was from 1975. He didn't make regular daily entries in it - oh sometimes he did, and sometimes he just took notes or used it as an I-Pod to keep track of times and dates and scheduling things, Like "Pick up Grapevines at 3 PM and deliver to Michael and Nancy."

But othertimes he wrote wonderful things that affect me deeply, and I get to see how he felt back then as a younger man, the man who would become my father.

One such note is this one:

"When I read that Peter denied the Lord repeatedly, I just want to slug him. He's the bad guy, right? - Yet,... when Jesus walked on the water and invited the disciples to step out of the boat with him, he was the only one that dared. It's this quality I admire in him, 'Help thou mine unbelief.' It makes you wonder, and in a good way. Who's to say I wouldn't have denied I knew Christ. What am I made of? Better stuff? Sometimes I'm amazed at the stories of courage and hardships these people went through, just to get what was given to me."

Likewise, I find myself amazed and full of wonder about the things I learn in the Bible, just like my dad did. I guess it's his sense of wonder that inspires me at times. I'll add more to this thread. It's something I've wanted to do for a while. From 1987 till 1999 I literally devoured knowledge of any kind in a sort of mad race to make up for,... something. Something missing, a piece, a part of me that was slower to develop, called a brain. But I had a voracious thirst for knowledge. No one really knew what to do with me as I learned more and more than anyone expected. heck I was even told that at one point when I was too little to remember, maybe six or so, that most doctors thought I would never learn to count to ten.

So my life is one of continual wonder. I find many things fascinating that bore others and I think of stuff all the time, my brain never relaxes these days, but I am learning to manage that better now. I've always been interested in God. Somehow i know, in all my studies and jobs I've performed, that the Universe didn't just happen. Oh you can believe that if you want, but even if you do, you'd have to admit that it is a wonderous thing, as is life. Even those of you that no longer believe there is a God, or that the Christian Brand isn't for you - if you're familiar with the Bible, have to wonder at times... How is it so? How did it all come to be?

But for me this thread will be something I'll add to and respond to with anyone interested in the things that fill you with wonder. Life is a miracle in and of itself, I certainly appreciate mine, and each of yours. You can call the Universe "Creation" or you can call it "Existence",... but there it is, and here we are. Future unknown, we are in the thick of it. One question we all have is - Is there more to it?

It really is a thing of wonder you know?

[year2027]

God first

thanks Gen-2

that was like reading God's word

it was like some wisdom of the heart

I am bless that you have bless me my friend

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[waysider]

I get what you're saying. That's how I feel when I see the sheer beauty and brutality of nature and the utter complexity of various life forms. It feels much too big and interwoven to simply write off as a random unfolding. When you witness a baby being born or sit with someone as they breath their last breath, it's like some kind of message that transcends verbal expression. I think all religions, in general, are man's various ways of trying to assign some tangible meaning to whatever that message may be.

[waysider]

I get what you're saying. That's how I feel when I see the sheer beauty and brutality of nature and the utter complexity of various life forms. It feels much too big and interwoven to simply write off as a random unfolding. When you witness a baby being born or sit with someone as they breath their last breath, it's like some kind of message that transcends verbal expression. I think all religions, in general, are man's various ways of trying to assign some tangible meaning to whatever that message may be.

And when you think of it that way, it's no longer important whether the Bible or Christianity or Islam or any other belief system is based on myth because the myths may be based on an effort to explain/understand something that is real.

[JeffSjo]

I like the whole, "wonder of it all" sentiment."

Every time I read 1John it gives me a tremendous dose of that wonder and even encourages me to hold on to a little bit of that in my heart.

I don't believe a highminded academic will EVER truly understand that book....Written by someone the Lord called along with his brother James "Sons of Thunder."

My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

He that sins is of the devil,

(Exposing the anti-Christs)

I have written to you little children,

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.

He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist

etc., etc.

It seems to me the book requires a little wonder to get, certainly more than word studies. I can't recount how many times I've seen folks stumbling over definitions and grammar while a child with the spirit in him/her would understand clearly in the passing.

The topics of 1John are thunderously important, the writing manner is childishly simple.

It may reveal the liars and the deceivers, easily enough that a little child may see, but not the arrogant IMO.

Edited May 15, 2010 by JeffSjo

[Gen-2]

The arrogant. yeah Jeff, I guess. Mean people are no fun at all, but they think they are,... go figure.

I find comfort in just watching the way things work sometimes. We're all naught but a little clockwork at times;. Wind-able, predictable, ticking along as our gears and cogs mesh.

Yet our ability to comprehend and choose is a marvellous thing. We all see the stars in the sky and marvel. Not a one of us has not asked ourselves - What? How? and so on.

Does it matter?

People can live with or without many answers. If you do not know exactly how electricity works - is it important? The light comes on when you flip the switch either way, so why should it matter?

Yet we want to know things. But sometimes only up to a point. It's silly when people think they "know" or have all the answers. They say - that they have all the answers, and I politely don't smile. But within every person there is value, and something to learn from them, if you spare the time.

Each of us decides what's important to us, yet some things are evident. Where they are, you don't need a teacher, you just comprehend for yourself. Sometimes you will comprehend correctly, sometimes not. If Trial & Error and experience say, you can live with what you know, you tend to stop wondering, to stop learning new things, you don't "need" to learn more,... you're done. Then it's time for you to "teach",... convert others to your point of view.

I hope I never get there.

Waysider wrote:

And when you think of it that way, it's no longer important whether the Bible or Christianity or Islam or any other belief system is based on myth because the myths may be based on an effort to explain/understand something that is real.

Pilate asked - "What is Truth?" - not that he really wanted an answer.

I think everyone tries to formulate some opinion on what is real, what is true. Along with other less desirable qualities in Human Nature it's part of us to wonder. Anyone who gives up on that entirely, dies a little inside, whether they know it or not.

Reality is before us. Behind it all is the Truth, the five W's and the H of it all. Whatever it is - it's THAT, but it can only be one thing, generally speaking, a real reason.

I don't hold to any one particular church's views exclusively, but there's absolutely no doubt that I owe the Catholic Church a tremendous debt (not money) that I may never be able to repay. Whatever the Way ever was or is today, one thing is certain!..... They don't financially help people in need when they could, not even their own people, and that is to their shame. It is within the power of their hand to help their people financially, but they are stingy with what God has blessed them with. They hoard it, preferring instead to blame the individual for a lack of believing. You would think that a leader in the Way, who lived off of donated money would be more compassionate about helping people financially when need arose. You'd be wrong too.

It makes me wonder.

If you're mean - soften a bit,... you're life will be fuller I bet (although I don't know that for sure). Basically I'm gonna write what I think in here. If you don't know it, I believe in God, but don't let that scare you, I'm always listening to people. I still have a Huge appetite to learn, and I'm not asking for money,... >snicker<

[JeffSjo]

The arrogant. yeah Jeff, I guess. Mean people are no fun at all, but they think they are,... go figure.

I find comfort in just watching the way things work sometimes. We're all naught but a little clockwork at times;. Wind-able, predictable, ticking along as our gears and cogs mesh.

Yet our ability to comprehend and choose is a marvellous thing. We all see the stars in the sky and marvel. Not a one of us has not asked ourselves - What? How? and so on.

Does it matter?

YES, yes it does!

When I think of The Way International I think many people started as wide eyed kids whose hearts were full of wonder, love, and all kinds of amazing things.

But as things developed many of these great things were ground down and beaten out of the Wayfers. They were replaced with mindless and heartless dogma in service to a corrupt organization that served Wierwille's crotch. After Wierwille the organization served a man who was two-fold a child of hell than Wierwille was. And after the forehead, another who is fourfold a child of hell than the founder. I can hardly wait for the next installment. :B)

I think the ones they feared the most were the ones who when confronted The Ways ugliness had the heart to say truthfully as a child of God, straight from the pages of 1John, "Wierwille is of the devil!"; or perhaps, "He is an anti-Christ."

Heck, I admire the ones who saw through their crapola even without scripture, just sensing or seeing something was rotten.

I believe there is a lot to be said for someone who knows the wonder of life and has a strong foothold in the scriptures though....geez, I just love those guys!

Personally, I hope some of the beaten down ones can find their way back to the faith of a little child. But I know they won't be as prone to being fooled again. Reality can be a tough teacher.

People can live with or without many answers. If you do not know exactly how electricity works - is it important? The light comes on when you flip the switch either way, so why should it matter?

Yet we want to know things. But sometimes only up to a point. It's silly when people think they "know" or have all the answers. They say - that they have all the answers, and I politely don't smile. But within every person there is value, and something to learn from them, if you spare the time.

Each of us decides what's important to us, yet some things are evident. Where they are, you don't need a teacher, you just comprehend for yourself. Sometimes you will comprehend correctly, sometimes not. If Trial & Error and experience say, you can live with what you know, you tend to stop wondering, to stop learning new things, you don't "need" to learn more,... you're done. Then it's time for you to "teach",... convert others to your point of view.

I hope I never get there.

Hopefully, any of us might have friends who love us and can say, "Boy, when did you become such a jerk!?"

(edited because since this is "doctrinal" I think I should be able to say "HELL" instead of he11.)

Edited May 17, 2010 by JeffSjo

[TrustAndObey]

I don't hold to any one particular church's views exclusively, but there's absolutely no doubt that I owe the Catholic Church a tremendous debt (not money) that I may never be able to repay.

Unfortunately, that is exactly why many stay in TWI today. Because they feel they owe them a tremendous debt [not money]. For some, they feel they should at least stay "loyal" to them for this debt. Others, that they ought to serve and give their time. And maybe others money. Either way, this owing others because they have helped you, well, is it honestly healthy? No, that's not rhetorical, I mean it as a real honest to goodness open ended question.. Cause I don't know if it truly could be considered healthy. Anyone care to help me understand and expound why or why it wouldn't?

I do know, the only reason I left, was because I did not feel I owed them a thing. Well, ok, I owed them enough as my employer to give them an advance notice that I was leaving (And they, for a few hours, took me up on that...). But that's just me.

[Edited to add, there were a number of things I was helped with by those in TWI. Not by the top hyenas though]

Edited May 18, 2010 by TrustAndObey

[Gen-2]

I just owe the Catholic Church a Debt of gratitude, TrustAndObey, not allegiance. I was raised in a Catholic facility, run by nuns, untill I spoke my first words at seven years of age. Although I don't remember any of it, they took care of me, fed me, clothed me, wiped my butt for me and so on. I can't be loyal to memories I don't have.

As to giving,... isn't it all in how you purpose in your heart to give? I mean sure, it's not good to give for bad reasons.

Doing something good for someone out of love is a noble thing.

God allows people to get themselves involved and engrossed in anything they choose. He usually only steps in when they cry out to him.

[waysider]

Either way, this owing others because they have helped you, well, is it honestly healthy? No, that's not rhetorical, I mean it as a real honest to goodness open ended question.. Cause I don't know if it truly could be considered healthy. Anyone care to help me understand and expound why or why it wouldn't?

I think it's normal to feel a sense of gratitude. That being said, I also think it can cross the line into manipulation if you don't watch it closely. For all I know, maybe that's what the scripture means when it says "Owe no man anything."

[Gen-2]

I think it's normal to feel a sense of gratitude. That being said, I also think it can cross the line into manipulation if you don't watch it closely. For all I know, maybe that's what the scripture means when it says "Owe no man anything."

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

So,... you CAN owe Love for one another, and repay it</SPAN>

[waysider]

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

So,... you CAN owe Love for one another, and repay it</SPAN>

Yeah, that's quite a stretch from the "no-debt policy" that The Way turned it into.

[TrustAndObey]

As to giving,... isn't it all in how you purpose in your heart to give? I mean sure, it's not good to give for bad reasons.

Doing something good for someone out of love is a noble thing.

God allows people to get themselves involved and engrossed in anything they choose. He usually only steps in when they cry out to him.

I remember reading your story. And I'm glad to hear how there are always pockets of people who do take "loving your neighbor" to heart. Even in TWI there were pockets or "good" people who honestly loved. Mostly at the "twig/fellowship" level.

I think whether you give to a bad cause or a good cause, if it's done with love, with the right heart, it's a noble thing. I mean, most organizations have corruption somewhere internally once they get large enough. Even the Red Cross and Salvation Army, the top 2 giving organizations have quite a bit of corruption.. Granted, their founding members were nothing like the TWI's!

If you ask me, "Doing something good for someone out of love" is not just a noble thing, but if not "THE" purpose, than one of the purposes for being here.. All going back to Genesis, and why God made man.

So,... you CAN owe Love for one another, and repay it</SPAN>

So if one "repays" love, is it "really" love? I'm sure this will get into how one defines love.. And I am talking about "agape/ahav/charity" love as in 1 Cor 13... And if one can repay love, does that mean you don't "owe" them love anymore?

T&O

Edited May 19, 2010 by TrustAndObey

[Gen-2]

...

So if one "repays" love, is it "really" love? I'm sure this will get into how one defines love.. And I am talking about "agape/ahav/charity" love as in 1 Cor 13... And if one can repay love, does that mean you don't "owe" them love anymore?

T&O

Hahahahahaha! Well if you're unlovable, you'll never be in debt!

I'm just kidding, of course, but wouldn't the trick be to always stay in debt and be putting others in debt? ...and to be always keeping your head below water?

If you are always looking out for someone else's well-being with love, and they you, life is wonderfully fun and enjoyable! And fewer good opportunities are missed.

[TrustAndObey]

Hahahahahaha! Well if you're unlovable, you'll never be in debt!

Hey!! That must be why I am not in debt.. You figured it out for me.. I must be unlovable.. sniff sniff..

Now I gotta figure out what a guy has to do to be loved 'round here.. sniff sniff.. I want to be in debt!

I'm just kidding, of course, but wouldn't the trick be to always stay in debt and be putting others in debt? ...and to be always keeping your head below water?

If you are always looking out for someone else's well-being with love, and they you, life is wonderfully fun and enjoyable! And fewer good opportunities are missed.

I think in all honesty, 1 Cor 13 speaks of love as being an act of charity, not an act of repayment, but rather an unselfish desire to give because you can and the opportunity is right there in front of you to do so.. Christ died not because he owed us love, but to show us how we ought to love. At least, I'd like to think that's what it means and that was God's plan from the start, that all would imitate Him, love others, and all would be loved..

But I guess maybe I have to be in debt first... So which comes first the debt or the love? How long must I wait? Am I really that unlovable?!

T&O

[Gen-2]

... So which comes first the debt or the love? ... T&O

You love first. You can initiate that,... Love thy neighbor,.......

But should you find yourself in debt (Now hey, that's not such a Bad thought) Try to make your payments on time!

<grin>

[Steve Lortz]

You started a good thread, Gen-2!

As far as debt to love goes, Jesus put us all into debt to Him by hanging on the cross and dying for us. No greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.

There was a time in my life when I felt sorry for myself because I'd been dumped by my fiancee. And I don't mean superficial feeling sorry. I mean deep depression bordering on madness and suicide. I kept repeating over and over to myself, "There's no love in my life."

Jesus showed me that if I were loving somebody else with His love, then there would be love in my life, whether or not anybody else ever loved me back. That's when I realized I didn't actually know HOW to love, and I asked Him to teach me.

The love of God is poured out in our hearts through the holy Spirit He has given to us. Out of the overflow of our hearts, we speak and act. By allowing Jesus' attitudes to be the attitudes of our thoughts and hearts, then His love can flow out, as much as we want it to flow. We can't run out. He just keeps pumping more in.

What the Wizard of Oz said to the Tin Man was dead wrong.

Love,

Steve

[year2027]

God first

thanks Steve

What the Wizard of Oz said to the Tin Man was dead wrong.

NO my friend

but you can help me out

because what Wizard of Oz only part wrong and part right

because I know it help some

but I do not remember what was spoken

I try to look it up

even a missable friendship can help a little

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Gen-2]

The Wizard of Oz to the Tinman:

As for you, my galvanized friend, you want a heart. You don't know how lucky you are not to have one. Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable.

We love God because He first loved us.

1st John 4:19

For God so loved the world that.... What?

Yeah okay,... we're all in debt, it's true

When Jesus is in the hearts of believers, those believers do better than when they try to love God with him (Jesus) surgically removed.

[soul searcher]

Somehow i know, in all my studies and jobs I've performed, that the Universe didn't just happen. Oh you can believe that if you want, but even if you do, you'd have to admit that it is a wonderous thing, as is life. Even those of you that no longer believe there is a God, or that the Christian Brand isn't for you - if you're familiar with the Bible, have to wonder at times... How is it so? How did it all come to be?

But for me this thread will be something I'll add to and respond to with anyone interested in the things that fill you with wonder. Life is a miracle in and of itself, I certainly appreciate mine, and each of yours. You can call the Universe "Creation" or you can call it "Existence",... but there it is, and here we are. Future unknown, we are in the thick of it. One question we all have is - Is there more to it?

It really is a thing of wonder you know?

Yes it is, and one of the things I've wondered about lately is the story told in the Book of Genesis.

The thing is, I can't accept Genesis as a literal story -- my understanding of the physical laws of the universe doesn't allow for it.

I'm kind of a noob when it come to the bible so let me begin with two (simple?) questions:

1. Why isn't there any mention of dinosaurs or an ice age in Genesis?

2. How did the Nephilim (or the "sons of God" that fathered them) get on earth? And how did they get back on earth after the flood?

I have another set of questions about the flood, but let's start here.

[waysider]

1. Why isn't there any mention of dinosaurs or an ice age in Genesis?

PFAL gave us a conveniently easy answer for this.

(I won't bore you with minutia but here is how Wierwille "explained" it.)

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and void."

According to Wierwille, the word "was" should actually be translated "became". Why? Because Wierwille said so.

So, according to VPW, almost anything could have happened (and any amount of time could have elapsed) between verse 1, when God created the heavens and the earth and verse 2, when it became without form and void.

Pretty clever, eh?

Now, the ice age issue is a whole other cup of tea that was explained away, if I recall, in some teaching that dealt with the firmament rupturing during the battle between God and Lucifer, thus allowing the ice and water from the other side to leak inside the bubble that supposedly encapsulates us. I think that was also used to explain the great flood.

(We ate this stuff up, of course.)

Edited May 21, 2010 by waysider

[soul searcher]

The "leaps" or assertions of vpw aside, there is an entire Christian world out there that takes the Book of Genesis literally.

When I approached the bible for the first time last year, I wanted to believe that there were elements of truth in the creation story (and I still think there are).

But literalists are unwilling to give an inch; for example Adam & Eve did, indeed, live 930 years and spawned the entire human population, Noah built an ark and got every species of animal on it, and a flood wiped out the entire world, etc.)

I could be convinced that there lived a prototypical homo sapiens couple that emerged from a group of lower species, but that story doesn't fly with the bible literalists. It's all or none.

[waysider]

The "leaps" or assertions of vpw aside, there is an entire Christian world out there that takes the Book of Genesis literally.

When I approached the bible for the first time last year, I wanted to believe that there were elements of truth in the creation story (and I still think there are).

But literalists are unwilling to give an inch; for example Adam & Eve did, indeed, live 930 years and spawned the entire human population, Noah built an ark and got every species of animal on it, and a flood wiped out the entire world, etc.)

I could be convinced that there lived a prototypical homo sapiens couple that emerged from a group of lower species, but that story doesn't fly with the bible literalists. It's all or none.

That, my friend, is where the whole concept of "figures of speech" enters the arena.

F.O.S. is one of the critical issues that was tackled in the early sessions. Wierwille, of course, did not originate this concept, though he allowed the class to believe God had shown this idea to him. Actually, he borrowed the whole thing from E. W. Bullinger's works.

ALSO

Edited May 21, 2010 by waysider

[geisha779]

This conversation about being indebted....especially to God....reminded me of a teaching I heard once by John Piper....I found an excerpt on his site Desiring God.

-----------------------------------------

"It can be a bad thing if we conceive of acting out of gratitude as returning favors, like when somebody invites you over for dinner and out of gratitude you feel the need to invite them over to dinner. If that's the way we're thinking about our relationship and obedience to God, it's bad.

It's going to be legalistic and devastating. And it's going to dishonor God, because it says, "OK, God made a deposit in my life of some good and some kindness. Now, as I face the future and ponder what my motivation is for pleasing God or for doing good things that he commands, I must now do something good for him because of what he has done for me in the past."

It's that structure of thought that I think is so dishonoring to God, because when I turn to do something good for God, when I turn to take another step in the path of obedience, I need to not say, "God helped me in the past; now I must do something for him in the future." Rather, I need to say, "God helped me in the past, and now I need his help for the very next moment of my life."

We don't give God anything, according to Acts 17:25, nor is he served by human hands, uas though he needed anything, since he himself vgives to all mankind wlife and breath and everything. ........ but God gives us life and breath and everything.

So when a person takes a step of obedience and thinks, "I am paying back to God what he has given to me," they're making a profound mistake. They're not paying anything back if they're living the way they should. They are depending on new grace to take that step, and therefore they go deeper in debt.

That is why I sometimes call gratitude-based obedience "the debtor's ethic." You shouldn't think of obedience as a mortgage payment, trying to pay God back month by month until you get the debt paid off. Rather, we should think that obedience is going deeper in debt to God every moment, because it takes more grace to be obedient this afternoon than I had yesterday.

So I get more and more from God. I go deeper and deeper into debt, and that's the best and happiest way to live.

We will never get out of debt to grace. And so the thought of gratitude ethic as a kind of payback ethic is devastating to increasing the glory of God's grace in our lives. We go deeper into debt in grace, not pay it off.

So the greatest Christian is the one who reaches the finish line with the most debt to God?

Exactly, the most conscious debt to God. I want to say "conscious" to emphasize that it is right to be dependent on God moment by moment. And if we're dependent on God moment by moment to supply grace and ability and everything we need spiritually, emotionally, and materially, then we'll get out of our head once and for all the notion that we will ever get beyond radical total dependence on him so as to assume a position of payback."

[year2027]

God first

thanks Soul searcher

1. Why isn't there any mention of dinosaurs or an ice age in Genesis?

2. How did the Nephilim (or the "sons of God" that fathered them) get on earth? And how did they get back on earth after the flood?

because dinosaurs were around for many years even NOW

the dinosaurs family has not die out Look them up Alligator is part of dinosaurs family and many others

Now to number 2

Nephilim family tree

Adam had two sons

Cain who called son of men

and

Seth who is called son of God [messaging of God] or {angel of God}

if you had read other books you see Cain was always fighting with Seth

look in books like about Adam or Cain or Seth

but I read it

Genesis only tells part of creation

there more

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited May 21, 2010 by year2027