Thanks for that textusreceptusbibles hyperlink – really cool!
Yeah, I hear you on theology confusing stuff – and I’m not 100 percent sold on either yet – how’s that for waffling.
If you haven’t checked out those two Heiser links I posted earlier, I recommend you give them a chance. It got me to rethink how I understood familiar passages like 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV . Some of the descriptions have striking similarities to OT stuff like Isaiah 14 NIV , Ezekiel 28 NIV and Daniel 12 NIV , and the book of Revelation.
Simple obvious statements like meet the Lord in the air or prince of the power of the air, we tend to take literally to the exclusion of referencing the spiritual realm.- just another aspect of the same event...just my opinion...
this is all tentative in my mind right now...and granted some of the pieces of the interpretive puzzle could fit either way (split events or same event). I see no issue with practical consequences either way unless one goes overboard like Charity and I mentioning the extremes of TWI and Bickle.
YW!!
No worries, youre not waffling though, its just that you are proving all things and holding fast to the good. It's what were commanded to do. There's so many doctrinal issues that Im plowing my way through and Im not solid on many of them. Peace Brother!
It seems Bickle thinks he can effectuate the beginning of the eschaton with prayer and song.
God can’t do this himself? God needs an earthly minister to bring about the Divine Plan? God doesn’t have foreknowledge? God’s timeline is contingent upon the activities of the preacher man du jour.
Maybe there is some scriptural basis for this. I don’t know.
Hey! I didn’t write the book. I didn’t bake the cookies, either.
It seems Bickle thinks he can effectuate the beginning of the eschaton with prayer and song.
God can’t do this himself? God needs an earthly minister to bring about the Divine Plan? God doesn’t have foreknowledge? God’s timeline is contingent upon the activities of the preacher man du jour.
Maybe there is some scriptural basis for this. I don’t know.
Hey! I didn’t write the book. I didn’t bake the cookies, either.
There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.
There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.
I’ve noticed.
Do they base their beleeefs on Bible verses? Or are they just eating a lot of cookies?
There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.
IHOP KC is big on God's zeal for Zion and David is mentioned a lot in their scriptures about song and worship. I had to look Zion up because I know zilch about it.
The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world.
Zion, in the Old Testament, the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem. It was the site of the Jebusite city captured by David, king of Israel and Judah, in the 10th century bc (2 Samuel 5:6–9) and established by him as his royal capital. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
It seems Bickle thinks he can effectuate the beginning of the eschaton with prayer and song.
God can’t do this himself? God needs an earthly minister to bring about the Divine Plan? God doesn’t have foreknowledge? God’s timeline is contingent upon the activities of the preacher man du jour.
Maybe there is some scriptural basis for this. I don’t know.
Hey! I didn’t write the book. I didn’t bake the cookies, either.
You ask some very logical questions - hopefully his followers will wake up one morning and do the same . It's funny that a prayer and worship movement wasn't needed to persuade God to bring about the birth of His son but now one is necessary for his return.
There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.
Interesting and worrisome. I wonder what else these two groups have in common .
IHOP KC is big on God's zeal for Zion and David is mentioned a lot in their scriptures about song and worship. I had to look Zion up because I know zilch about it.
The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world.
Zion, in the Old Testament, the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem. It was the site of the Jebusite city captured by David, king of Israel and Judah, in the 10th century bc (2 Samuel 5:6–9) and established by him as his royal capital. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
Interesting reference to Zion National Park and the Mormons.
When 9/11 happened, my wife and I were vacationing in Big Sur of California. Since all airports were shut down, we decided to drive the rental vehicle all the way back home to Texas. I have a national park pass so we drove through Zion National Park – absolutely gorgeous – breathtaking!
Speaking of TWI, Bickle, and the Mormons, I think the biggest reason why I am so hesitant to give credence on some of their interpretations of the Bible is from my own experience with TWI / wierwille – where the authority and trustworthiness of the founder relies heavily on some personal theophany (which those 3 groups rely on). I’ve been burned. So, I’m now of the opinion if someone can’t argue their theological case from just Scripture – then I’m not interested in considering their points because I doubt the impetus behind it.
~ ~ ~ ~
As a side note: this goes along the same lines of when I get in discussions about miracles, manifestations, personal experiences of phenomena. Some folks get the idea that when I talk about wierwille’s misinterpreting what the Bible teaches about that stuff, that I am saying none of that stuff can happen today. That’s not my position.
My stance is to ignore the drivel of an incompetent, pathological liar, drunkard, plagiarist, delusional, megalomaniac like wierwille and the god made in his image. wierwille’s definitions and how-to onholyspirit stuff is pretentious and unbiblical. The lack of divine wisdom, power, and healing in the ministry of a faker who asserted the holyspirit was the field god called him to, should give one pause.
I love Charity’s thread on how God works in us, because folks didn’t get into comparisons or try to outdo each other. I take the biblical approach – the way Scripture speaks to manifestations, gifts, spiritual abilities and such is that the person ALREADY KNOWSthey HAVE SOMETHING(S)- so they don’t need some stupid class on them - it’s really a matter of cheerfully serving others with what you have. I think folks that really do have something are not prone to go around bragging about it – they’re too busy being driven – self-motivated – to serve in that particular capacity - it’s like they actually enjoy doing that stuff.
I take the biblical approach – the way Scripture speaks to manifestations, gifts, spiritual abilities and such is that the person ALREADY KNOWSthey HAVE SOMETHING(S)- so they don’t need some stupid class on them - it’s really a matter of cheerfully serving others with what you have. I think folks that really do have something are not prone to go around bragging about it – they’re too busy being driven – self-motivated – to serve in that particular capacity - it’s like they actually enjoy doing that stuff.
Your post made me think of CES and their personal prophecy problems which seem similar to what happened at a church Bickle pastored in the late 1980's that became notoriously known as the "Kansas City Prophets."
A search brought up the thread "Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)" - very handy for the inquiring mind .
... leaders call for 300radical young adults to join 21 days of prayer and fasting in Kansas City this May. They will be praying during the NightWatch (12–6am), having housing and basic food (i.e. Daniel fast meals) provided. "We’re calling 300 young adults to come and be a part of this historic reality that's happening globally," Mike says.
That sounds so TWI-ish. The "standing in the gap" dange and "participate and be special." Ugh.
Good if Christians can come together to pray for common cause. Bad if Christians get elitist about it.
7 hours ago, Charity said:
intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns.
Your post made me think of CES and their personal prophecy problems which seem similar to what happened at a church Bickle pastored in the late 1980's that became notoriously known as the "Kansas City Prophets."
A search brought up the thread "Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)" - very handy for the inquiring mind .
Changed my mind - sometimes inquiring minds need to take a break .
to “set,” “appoint,” or “mark” intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns.
3 hours ago, Twinky said:
Remind" God ???
Tired of the inconvenience?
Having to remind God again and again?
Prevagen to the rescue!
For the forgetful deity in your life.
Trinitarians remember to give the Godhead 3-in-1 Prevagen with its triple-action formula.
And for you rank unbelievers who wonder if your luck will ever run out - there’s also Helluvagen - formulated for the absentminded god of this world in your life.
Patent pretending for Big Pharma Lharma Ding Dong.
Adam Wittenberg who is on staff at Bickle's IHOP KC writes,"The global end-time worship movement is the Church’s first line of defense against Satan’s activity." (1) Here he is referring in part to Bickle's 24/7 prayer room. And in another article he says, "We are very likely living in the early days of that generation." (2)
Bickle's whole ministry is based on his definition of "generation." However, the website below explains why the author thinks the definition of "generation" used by many who are focused on the end times is not accurate. I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation." Thanks! (If this needs to be discussed in doctrinal, I'll post it again there.)
"We usually hold that the last days, last hour and the end time refer to the generation that will see the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is not biblical.
The Jews were waiting for the Kingdom to come with Messiah. The Messianic age was termed ‘the latter days, the End Time’ by the prophets. So after Christ came, the Apostles declared that the coming of the Kingdom and the King had taken place. They were declaring that the ‘latter days or End Times’ had begun; the last era in human history had begun. What all history had been leading up to, namely, the coming of God’s kingdom in Christ had come.
We know that the Kingdom of God will not fully come to earth until Jesus Christ has put all his enemies, including death, underneath his feet at the events portrayed by Revelation 20:14 (1 Cor. 15:24-28).
The Bible declares that End Time began with the coming of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago and will be wrapped up when he finally destroys death after his third coming."
I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation."
Me personally, I think it's silly to try to pin down a general term like that to anything specific simply to justify an interpretation of another cultish social control mechanism.
Usually, when you see the word "generation", it's referring to a chronological period that encompasses the time between when a child is born and the time when they reach adulthood and/or childbearing years. There's no ironclad number of years that may involve, but, generally, you can assume it's about 20-30 years. The real question is when to begin counting the start of a generation. The Baby Boomer Generation, for example, can be used to refer to people born between 1946 and 1964. So, there's an 18 year window in which to apply that designation. Is it as clear as mud now?
Bickle's whole ministry is based on his definition of "generation." However, the website below explains why the author thinks the definition of "generation" used by many who are focused on the end times is not accurate. I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation."
FYI - I posted this in the God’s Budget threadand am reposting here since it’s relevant to latter times stuff and “generation” could be understood in a very brooooooooad sense
I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to both Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:
Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.
later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).
For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not? I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not” yeah that’s my motto.
Me personally, I think it's silly to try to pin down a general term like that to anything specific simply to justify an interpretation of another cultish social control mechanism.
Thanks Rocky - I agree, soon-to-be cult leaders have to have something to rally the troops around in order to attract followers who unfortunately sincerely believe in the cause and in their leader.
Usually, when you see the word "generation", it's referring to a chronological period that encompasses the time between when a child is born and the time when they reach adulthood and/or childbearing years. There's no ironclad number of years that may involve, but, generally, you can assume it's about 20-30 years. The real question is when to begin counting the start of a generation. The Baby Boomer Generation, for example, can be used to refer to people born between 1946 and 1964. So, there's an 18 year window in which to apply that designation. Is it as clear as mud now?
My 3 older brothers and myself are all baby boomers. Then there are these:
Generation X – born 1965-1979. - my oldest son
Millennials – born 1980-1994. - my daughter and son
Generation Z – born 1995-2012 - 2 grandchildren
Gen Alpha – born 2013 – 2025 - 5 grandchildren
It's weird to think that my 3 kids belong to 2 different generations. I think I'll try calling them by those names instead since I'll only have 2 to get right instead of 3 - less of a chance of mixing up their names. With 10 names altogether to match up with the right person, I'll take whatever help I can get. Please say you know what I mean . (I have no trouble with the names of my son-in-law and 2 daughters-in-law. The 2 cats - I mostly just call them cats - they don't seem to care!)
FYI - I posted this in the God’s Budget threadand am reposting here since it’s relevant to latter times stuff and “generation” could be understood in a very brooooooooad sense
I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to both Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:
Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.
later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).
For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not? I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not” yeah that’s my motto.
Thanks for replying here T-Bone although you are very good at inserting links that take your readers quickly to previous posts.
Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
In verse 34, Jesus refers to "this generation" which includes himself so it agrees with what you quoted above. There is no specific generation which Bickle teaches will either be this one or the next one.
I wonder how long his 24/7 prayer room will last (which according to him costs $13,000 a day to operate even though the staff are non-paid employees) before it fizzles out.
One last thing, is vp's teaching that Jesus did not know about the "administration" of grace because it was hidden in God until Paul revealed it accurate?
One last thing, is vp's teaching that Jesus did not know about the "administration" of grace because it was hidden in God until Paul revealed it accurate?
that's a good question.
Let me think on that.
Right off the bat though, I'm thinking if administrations are something man-made than it's a moot question. And the more I think of it as I'm writing this - there's lots of things Jesus said in the gospels that makes me think he knew the plan, "there are others who are not of this fold" for example ...but I'll think on it and if I forget to get back to you - PM me
Maybe other Grease Spotters got something.
Edited by T-Bone don't forget to use gooder Engvish
"Generation." Hmm. Might mean something along the lines of "administration" if one still buys into that idea (I don't, well not in the way TWI teaches it).
In places in the Bible it puts "week" for a period of a year, or "day" for a period of a year or some other length of time, not just a period of 24 hours.
So I wonder if "generation" (a vague word, not a specific length of time) is used in a vague sense, to indicate some future period, that those currently alive might or might not see.
I think all that Gen X and Gen Z and other stuff is a little ridiculous. Though without doubt the "Swinging 60s" generation with its funky fashions and mini-skirts had considerably different aspirations from the 50s generation of post-war austerity leading into more peaceful and settled times, or the 70s, with heavy rock and psychedelic drugs.
Right off the bat though, I'm thinking if administrations are something man-made than it's a moot question. And the more I think of it as I'm writing this - there's lots of things Jesus said in the gospels that makes me think he knew the plan, "there are others who are not of this fold" for example ...but I'll think on it and if I forget to get back to you - PM me
Maybe other Grease Spotters got something.
My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24?
If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"
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chockfull
Ah yes the Mystery! This is that concept where Jews and Gentiles are together with one Lord and Savior and together in one body of Christ. Except - 1. Did they take “the class” yet? If no
little_rock
I learned years later all that the Wow ambassadors' sicky-sweetness was fake. Some analyst call it "love bombing". They would shower you with love and think you are just the most interesting person th
Twinky
That sounds so TWI-ish. The "standing in the gap" dange and "participate and be special." Ugh. Good if Christians can come together to pray for common cause. Bad if Christians get elitist abou
OldSkool
YW!!
No worries, youre not waffling though, its just that you are proving all things and holding fast to the good. It's what were commanded to do. There's so many doctrinal issues that Im plowing my way through and Im not solid on many of them. Peace Brother!
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Nathan_Jr
It seems Bickle thinks he can effectuate the beginning of the eschaton with prayer and song.
God can’t do this himself? God needs an earthly minister to bring about the Divine Plan? God doesn’t have foreknowledge? God’s timeline is contingent upon the activities of the preacher man du jour.
Maybe there is some scriptural basis for this. I don’t know.
Hey! I didn’t write the book. I didn’t bake the cookies, either.
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OldSkool
There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.
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Nathan_Jr
I’ve noticed.
Do they base their beleeefs on Bible verses? Or are they just eating a lot of cookies?
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OldSkool
Political Zionists typically the Talmud...evangelicals twisted scripture.
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Charity
IHOP KC is big on God's zeal for Zion and David is mentioned a lot in their scriptures about song and worship. I had to look Zion up because I know zilch about it.
The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world.
https://www.zionponderosa.com/blog/2014/06/the-hidden-meaning-behind-the-zion-name/
Zion, in the Old Testament, the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem. It was the site of the Jebusite city captured byDavid , king of Israel and Judah, in the 10th century bc (2 Samuel 5:6–9) and established by him as his royal capital. (Encyclopedia Britannica)
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Charity
You ask some very logical questions - hopefully his followers will wake up one morning and do the same
. It's funny that a prayer and worship movement wasn't needed to persuade God to bring about the birth of His son but now one is necessary for his return.
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Charity
Interesting and worrisome. I wonder what else these two groups have in common .
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T-Bone
Interesting reference to Zion National Park and the Mormons.
When 9/11 happened, my wife and I were vacationing in Big Sur of California. Since all airports were shut down, we decided to drive the rental vehicle all the way back home to Texas. I have a national park pass so we drove through Zion National Park – absolutely gorgeous – breathtaking!
Speaking of TWI, Bickle, and the Mormons, I think the biggest reason why I am so hesitant to give credence on some of their interpretations of the Bible is from my own experience with TWI / wierwille – where the authority and trustworthiness of the founder relies heavily on some personal theophany (which those 3 groups rely on). I’ve been burned. So, I’m now of the opinion if someone can’t argue their theological case from just Scripture – then I’m not interested in considering their points because I doubt the impetus behind it.
~ ~ ~ ~
As a side note: this goes along the same lines of when I get in discussions about miracles, manifestations, personal experiences of phenomena. Some folks get the idea that when I talk about wierwille’s misinterpreting what the Bible teaches about that stuff, that I am saying none of that stuff can happen today. That’s not my position.
My stance is to ignore the drivel of an incompetent, pathological liar, drunkard, plagiarist, delusional, megalomaniac like wierwille and the god made in his image. wierwille’s definitions and how-to on holy spirit stuff is pretentious and unbiblical. The lack of divine wisdom, power, and healing in the ministry of a faker who asserted the holy spirit was the field god called him to, should give one pause.
I love Charity’s thread on how God works in us, because folks didn’t get into comparisons or try to outdo each other. I take the biblical approach – the way Scripture speaks to manifestations, gifts, spiritual abilities and such is that the person ALREADY KNOWS they HAVE SOMETHING(S)
- so they don’t need some stupid class on them - it’s really a matter of cheerfully serving others with what you have. I think folks that really do have something are not prone to go around bragging about it – they’re too busy being driven – self-motivated – to serve in that particular capacity - it’s like they actually enjoy doing that stuff. 
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Charity
Your post made me think of CES and their personal prophecy problems which seem similar to what happened at a church Bickle pastored in the late 1980's that became notoriously known as the "Kansas City Prophets."
A search brought up the thread "Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)" - very handy for the inquiring mind
.
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Twinky
That sounds so TWI-ish. The "standing in the gap" dange and "participate and be special." Ugh.
Good if Christians can come together to pray for common cause. Bad if Christians get elitist about it.
"Remind" God ???
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Charity
Changed my mind - sometimes inquiring minds need to take a break
.
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T-Bone
Tired of the inconvenience?
Having to remind God again and again?
Prevagen to the rescue!
For the forgetful deity in your life.
Trinitarians remember to give the Godhead 3-in-1 Prevagen with its triple-action formula.
And for you rank unbelievers who wonder if your luck will ever run out - there’s also Helluvagen - formulated for the absentminded god of this world in your life.
Patent pretending for Big Pharma Lharma Ding Dong.
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OldSkool
Ahhh...lo shontamonopladypus.
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Charity
Adam Wittenberg who is on staff at Bickle's IHOP KC writes,"The global end-time worship movement is the Church’s first line of defense against Satan’s activity." (1) Here he is referring in part to Bickle's 24/7 prayer room. And in another article he says, "We are very likely living in the early days of that generation." (2)
Bickle's whole ministry is based on his definition of "generation." However, the website below explains why the author thinks the definition of "generation" used by many who are focused on the end times is not accurate. I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation." Thanks! (If this needs to be discussed in doctrinal, I'll post it again there.)
https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/end-time-its-definition-beginning-and-end/
Some highlights are:
"We usually hold that the last days, last hour and the end time refer to the generation that will see the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is not biblical.
The Jews were waiting for the Kingdom to come with Messiah. The Messianic age was termed ‘the latter days, the End Time’ by the prophets. So after Christ came, the Apostles declared that the coming of the Kingdom and the King had taken place. They were declaring that the ‘latter days or End Times’ had begun; the last era in human history had begun. What all history had been leading up to, namely, the coming of God’s kingdom in Christ had come.
We know that the Kingdom of God will not fully come to earth until Jesus Christ has put all his enemies, including death, underneath his feet at the events portrayed by Revelation 20:14 (1 Cor. 15:24-28).
The Bible declares that End Time began with the coming of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago and will be wrapped up when he finally destroys death after his third coming."
(1)https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/blog/worship-end-times/
(2) https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/blog/cant-know-day-hour-commanded-know-generation-lords-return/
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Rocky
Me personally, I think it's silly to try to pin down a general term like that to anything specific simply to justify an interpretation of another cultish social control mechanism.
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waysider
Usually, when you see the word "generation", it's referring to a chronological period that encompasses the time between when a child is born and the time when they reach adulthood and/or childbearing years. There's no ironclad number of years that may involve, but, generally, you can assume it's about 20-30 years. The real question is when to begin counting the start of a generation. The Baby Boomer Generation, for example, can be used to refer to people born between 1946 and 1964. So, there's an 18 year window in which to apply that designation. Is it as clear as mud now?
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T-Bone
FYI - I posted this in the God’s Budget thread
and am reposting here since it’s relevant to latter times stuff and “generation” could be understood in a very brooooooooad sense 
I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to both Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:
Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.
End of excerpt from page 2172 of I Timothy 4, NIV, Biblical Theology Study Bible
~ ~ ~ ~
And on page 2111 0f I Timothy 4, NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible it says
later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).
End of excerpt from NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible
~ ~ ~ ~
For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not? I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not” yeah that’s my motto.
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Charity
Thanks Rocky - I agree, soon-to-be cult leaders have to have something to rally the troops around in order to attract followers who unfortunately sincerely believe in the cause and in their leader.
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Charity
My 3 older brothers and myself are all baby boomers. Then there are these:
It's weird to think that my 3 kids belong to 2 different generations. I think I'll try calling them by those names instead since I'll only have 2 to get right instead of 3 - less of a chance of mixing up their names. With 10 names altogether to match up with the right person, I'll take whatever help I can get.
Please say you know what I mean 
. (I have no trouble with the names of my son-in-law and 2 daughters-in-law. The 2 cats - I mostly just call them cats - they don't seem to care!)
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Charity
Thanks for replying here T-Bone although you are very good at inserting links that take your readers quickly to previous posts.
Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
In verse 34, Jesus refers to "this generation" which includes himself so it agrees with what you quoted above. There is no specific generation which Bickle teaches will either be this one or the next one.
I wonder how long his 24/7 prayer room will last (which according to him costs $13,000 a day to operate even though the staff are non-paid employees) before it fizzles out.
One last thing, is vp's teaching that Jesus did not know about the "administration" of grace because it was hidden in God until Paul revealed it accurate?
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T-Bone
that's a good question.
Let me think on that.
Right off the bat though, I'm thinking if administrations are something man-made than it's a moot question. And the more I think of it as I'm writing this - there's lots of things Jesus said in the gospels that makes me think he knew the plan, "there are others who are not of this fold" for example ...but I'll think on it and if I forget to get back to you - PM me
Maybe other Grease Spotters got something.
Edited by T-Bonedon't forget to use gooder Engvish
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Twinky
"Generation." Hmm. Might mean something along the lines of "administration" if one still buys into that idea (I don't, well not in the way TWI teaches it).
In places in the Bible it puts "week" for a period of a year, or "day" for a period of a year or some other length of time, not just a period of 24 hours.
So I wonder if "generation" (a vague word, not a specific length of time) is used in a vague sense, to indicate some future period, that those currently alive might or might not see.
I think all that Gen X and Gen Z and other stuff is a little ridiculous. Though without doubt the "Swinging 60s" generation with its funky fashions and mini-skirts had considerably different aspirations from the 50s generation of post-war austerity leading into more peaceful and settled times, or the 70s, with heavy rock and psychedelic drugs.
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Charity
My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24?
If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"
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