My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24?
If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"
Just some quick thoughts
Review the passages below and then ask yourself the following questions – and for now I’ll put myself on the line, so you’ll see my answer right below each question in bold red:
1.Is it possible Christ’s return as described in Matthew 24 is the same event as that mentioned in I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4?
T-Bone’s response: currently I lean toward them all speaking to the same event – but obviously having different aspects – physically, spiritually, symbolically. But check back with me next week – I could change my mind…just kidding. If you have not done so already – review the 2 Dr. Heiser hyperlinks I posted on eschatology.
2.Does the mystery of Christ that Paul talks about in Ephesians 1 & 4 suggest there is a rapture / gathering together aspect that is a separate and distinct event from what’s mentioned in Matt. 24, I Cor. 15 and I Thess. 4?
T-Bone’s response: I don’t think so. The mystery of Christ mentioned in Ephesians talks about unity of Jews and Gentiles being heirs together and of the same body with Christ as the head. I also Googled “was Jesus aware of the Gentiles being included?” and found this:
Jews and Gentiles are often put in contrast with one another because what separates them is whether they believe in God or not. However, when the scope of Scripture is taken into account, God’s plan of redemption has always included the Gentiles. Before His death and resurrection, Jesus told His disciples to go into all nations sharing the Gospel and baptizing all people. Paul wrote clearly that Jesus’ saving work was for all to receive and that no longer was Jewish descent what saved someone, rather, it was belief in Jesus Christ.
The vision of a kingdom that included Jews and Gentiles was part of Jesus’ plan from the very beginning of His ministry.
Jesus’ first sermon in his hometown of Nazareth demonstrates that His life purpose extended far beyond the nation of Israel. He was not surprised that His own people — the Jews — did not receive His message. “That’s the way it has always been,” He said. (Luke 4:24, author’s paraphrase). He then gave an example: “There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah … and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow” (Luke 4:25-26, ESV). His hearers knew the rest of the story told in the Old Testament book of 1 Kings 17. Received into a Gentile home, Elijah performed the remarkable miracle of replenishing the flour and oil, then later restored the widow’s son to life — not a Jewish widow, but a Gentile!
You might enjoy reading the entire article of both above links – very informative and Scripture-wise makes sense.
Another thing to think about is how we get caught up in labels and who identifies with what group. Those are physical. The church of Christ – the family of God – is an invisible church. Is it possible some lady who is a practicing Jew, attending synagogue, etc. could also belong to the invisible church of Christ? Is Christ so petty as to demand we join a church with a certain creed?
3.In other words, are there 3 phases to Christ’s coming?
A.He came the first time per the narrative of the gospels.
B.He will come a second time for the rapture / gathering together of believers dead and alive.
C.He will come a third time (traditionally this has been referred to as Christ’s second coming).
T-Bone’s response: So far, I lean more and more on there being onlytwo comings – Christ first coming is per the gospel narratives and the second - what’s described in Matt 24, I Cor 15, I Thess 4 and book of Revelation. Logically and doctrinally, this seems to make more sense to me than there being a secret plan that even Jesus did not know about – a secret plan that was revealed to Paul and maybe some other apostles first. What is the purpose of this secret plan? I will admit the rapture / gathering together is an attractive idea because I'm squeamish when it comes to suffering and inconveniences.
4.What would be the purpose of Jesus Christ coming back to snatch away just believers - alive and dead at the time – only to expect a new batch of believers to rise up and spread the gospel of Christ again?
So that would explain why Jesus didn't mention it in Matthew 24 with all the other end time events. Thanks OldSkool.
Which is where a lot of the confusion comes in because various theologies don't respect the sign posts in scripture so to speak. Then theres the thing with Christianity believing that Jesus is God the Son and all knowing like God Almighty. While, Christ has been elevated, glorfied into something I don't comprehend at this time, he is part of the Godhead...whatever that is, I do not think he is God though. Same ole reasons: Christ was tempted with evil, isn't all knowing, scripture calls him a man, etc. But I do think there is a lot more to understand about his divine nature coming from God, etc.
Then there's the thing with Christianity believing that Jesus is God the Son and all knowing like God Almighty. While, Christ has been elevated, glorified into something I don't comprehend at this time, he is part of the Godhead...whatever that is, I do not think he is God though.
From A Short History of Myth, Karen Armstrong mentions a point of history of the trinity.
He [Isaac Newton] felt that he had a mission to purge Christianity of such doctrines as the Trinity, which defied the laws of logic. He was quite unable to see that this doctrine had been devised by the Greek theologians of the fourth century precisely as a myth, similar to that of the Jewish Kabbalists. As Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (335–395), had explained, Father, Son and Spirit were not objective, ontological facts but simply ‘terms that we use’ to express the way in which the ‘unnameable and unspeakable’ divine nature adapts itself to the limitations of our human minds. You could not prove the existence of the Trinity by rational means. It was no more demonstrable than the elusive meaning of music or poetry. But Newton could only approach the Trinity rationally. If something could not be explained logically, it was false. ‘’Tis the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion,’ he wrote irritably, ‘ever to be fond of mysteries & for that reason to like best what they understand least.’
Armstrong, Karen. A Short History of Myth (Canongate Myths series) (p. 132). Canongate Books. Kindle Edition.
objective, ontological facts but simply ‘terms that we use’ to express the way in which the ‘unnameable and unspeakable’ divine nature adapts itself to the limitations of our human minds.
Thats a really good point, Rocky. I think we see this in the parables taught by Jesus where the Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto.....and then the parable would contain lessons on God and his creation in ways that could be easily understood.
Someone has recently shared with me that real cult leaders hang on forever to an organization they have founded because they are narcissists. In other words, they don't pass on all leadership roles to others and move away from what they've built to build something that is bigger and better.
A few posters have shared information about narcissists. I need a website that confirms that the opposite to this is not only possible but most likely.
I know vp never moved on to start a new ministry under a new name with greater claims of what God has called him to do but Bickle has quite a few times.
Someone has recently shared with me that real cult leaders hang on forever to an organization they have founded because they are narcissists. In other words, they don't pass on all leadership roles to others and move away from what they've built to build something that is bigger and better.
A few posters have shared information about narcissists. I need a website that confirms that the opposite to this is not only possible but most likely.
I know vp never moved on to start a new ministry under a new name with greater claims of what God has called him to do but Bickle has quite a few times.
I'm not sure finding a website to confirm the opposite is possible is really going to be helpful, even if you find it.
What you might rather be better off with is reading books about social and psychological issues to get a broader perspective.
Finding a single data point to prove what you might already believe or how you might currently understand something isn't necessarily productive. I'd point you to Proverbs 2: 1-5 for related biblical insight.
Someone has recently shared with me that real cult leaders hang on forever to an organization they have founded because they are narcissists. In other words, they don't pass on all leadership roles to others and move away from what they've built to build something that is bigger and better.
A few posters have shared information about narcissists. I need a website that confirms that the opposite to this is not only possible but most likely.
I know vp never moved on to start a new ministry under a new name with greater claims of what God has called him to do but Bickle has quite a few times.
Sorry – not sure what you’re looking for…could a person have cult-leader type characteristics and start more than one cult? I imagine so. Could it mean they are not a narcissist because they have their fingers in a lot of pies – I don’t know.
Not sure if you’re looking to make a correlation with narcissism and cult-leader personality types – what I would look at is how to identify a narcissist and a cult-leader and just see where the trails lead – where the intersect and diverge…here’s a few I just found by Googling “Are cult leaders always narcissists?”:
I'm not sure finding a website to confirm the opposite is possible is really going to be helpful, even if you find it.
What you might rather be better off with is reading books about social and psychological issues to get a broader perspective.
Finding a single data point to prove what you might already believe or how you might currently understand something isn't necessarily productive. I'd point you to Proverbs 2: 1-5 for related biblical insight.
Those are wonderful verses Rocky - thanks for sharing them. I'll reword what I wrote previously to saying that I would like to know if a characteristic of a narcissist is a progression that leads to needing more power, more attention, more fame, etc. I did a google search for myself and the couple I looked at described what is called grandiose narcissism which was listed as a different type, not as a progression from narcissism to greater narcissism.
There are some who feel they can force God's hand to bring about end times events. This goes for extreme political zionists as well as extreme far right evangelicals.
On 4/18/2023 at 2:44 PM, Rocky said:
Me personally, I think it's silly to try to pin down a general term like that to anything specific simply to justify an interpretation of another cultish social control mechanism.
On 4/18/2023 at 3:15 PM, waysider said:
Usually, when you see the word "generation", it's referring to a chronological period that encompasses the time between when a child is born and the time when they reach adulthood and/or childbearing years. There's no ironclad number of years that may involve, but, generally, you can assume it's about 20-30 years. The real question is when to begin counting the start of a generation. The Baby Boomer Generation, for example, can be used to refer to people born between 1946 and 1964. So, there's an 18 year window in which to apply that designation. Is it as clear as mud now?
On 4/18/2023 at 6:15 PM, Charity said:
My point in asking about this is why did Jesus not mention what Paul revealed by revelation in 1 Thess 4:16-17 about the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ rising first...why did Jesus not mention this when talking about the events of the end times in Matthew 24?
If it was because it was not revealed to Jesus until after his ascension which he then later passed onto Paul, it might touch on your question from an earlier post about"the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?"
On 4/18/2023 at 6:31 PM, OldSkool said:
Yes. God gave the great mystery to Jesus Christ who taught it to Paul. The gahering, rapture, whatever..is a mystery within a mystery.
On 4/18/2023 at 7:40 PM, Charity said:
So that would explain why Jesus didn't mention it in Matthew 24 with all the other end time events. Thanks OldSkool.
On 4/19/2023 at 5:42 AM, OldSkool said:
Which is where a lot of the confusion comes in because various theologies don't respect the sign posts in scripture so to speak. Then theres the thing with Christianity believing that Jesus is God the Son and all knowing like God Almighty. While, Christ has been elevated, glorfied into something I don't comprehend at this time, he is part of the Godhead...whatever that is, I do not think he is God though. Same ole reasons: Christ was tempted with evil, isn't all knowing, scripture calls him a man, etc. But I do think there is a lot more to understand about his divine nature coming from God, etc.
The problem I with that is I don’t see the sequence in Scripture of God revealing the rapture to Christ - then Christ tells Paul.
Seems to me some folks are assuming or inserting an event that might not belong where they say it does - or that it’s even a thing…makes me think of Darby/Bullinger/wierwille stuff on there being -what is it supposed to be - 7 administrations…I used to believe there was following wierwille jumping all over the place to explain it…I don’t think the Bible works that way.
Maybe the rapture was not mentioned in Matthew 24 because it’s a modern misconception. How do we know Paul, John and other apostles thought there is supposed to be a rapture before end times events?
Signposts are supposed to be clear signals of direction or of something up ahead. I suggest there’s confusion - but not because certain folks don’t respect the signposts - maybe it’s because the signposts are not as definitively clear as we’d like them to be.
I’ve lost count of the commentaries and study Bibles on book of Revelation I’ve studied. There’s quite a variety of opinion on the who what when where and how of end times stuff.
What if the rapture - or the end times doesn’t start for another 2,000 years?
The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!
The problem I with that is I don’t see the sequence in Scripture of God revealing the rapture to Christ - then Christ tells Paul.
Gal 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taughtit, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
3 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Maybe the rapture was not mentioned in Matthew 24 because it’s a modern misconception. How do we know Paul, John and other apostles thought there is supposed to be a rapture before end times events?
2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
All I have to offer is clear scripture on the subject. Personally, I believe what is written over commentaries, scholars, experts, intellectuals, etc.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taughtit, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
All I have to offer is clear scripture on the subject. Personally, I believe what is written over commentaries, scholars, experts, intellectuals, etc.
It looks to me that Paul is referring to “the gospel “:
1I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.…Galatians 1:11,12
I don’t see how the idea of the rapture should be included in “the gospel” Paul received by revelation and preached. It seems to me you’re packing more content into “the gospel “ than what was intended by Paul.
I think you’re correct to focus on clear Scripture rather than being swayed by commentaries, experts, etc..let’s apply that to defining “the gospel”. What is included in that?
Here’s how Jesus described the gospel in Matthew 28:18-20,: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.”
Something he repeated again in Acts 1: 6 - 8.
So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
In Romans 1:16, 17 it looks to me like Paul is adhering to the same specific mandate that Jesus gave:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is God’s saving power for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith, as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.”
~ ~ ~ ~
In II Thessalonians Paul warns believers not to be deceived and mentions a departure and the man of sin revealed. If you compare the motifs that Jesus moved through in Matthew 24 NIV
Both passages mention gathering of God’s people at the end
Both passages mention lawlessness / rebellion / falling from faith
Both passages mention abomination in the temple
Both passages mention false prophets, false signs and wonders
~ ~ ~ ~
My point is II Thessalonians 2 does NOT appear to be any new revelations about the 2nd coming of Christ - but rather it’s a reiteration of what Jesus said.
~ ~ ~ ~
I respect your opinion and personally I prefer the rapture scenario over going through end times - cuz I’m a scaredy cat . And I acknowledge I’m just explaining my opinion too. Scripture-wise I don’t think the rapture concept is that clear or solid compared to the basics of Christianity - the gospel message.
I always enjoy the Socratic method. This stuff is especially cool to explore! The biggest issue on this is to ask are there any practical concerns I should think about. That’s why I ended my previous post by saying:
The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!
The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!
Paul's gospel is in his writings. It's in the epistles the gathering/rapture is revealed/explained. I studied the topic in detail for close to two years before coming right back where I started. Rapture/resurrection of the just/1000 year reign on earth under Christ's rule/resurrection of the unjust.
It's not beyond our knowledge, perhaps beyond our understanding as to what these events actually will mean or be like, but we do know about the various events from scripture.
As to what folks should do? For me, I stake my life on scripture.
It's not beyond our knowledge, perhaps beyond our understanding as to what these events actually will mean or be like, but we do know about the various events from scripture.
As to what folks should do? For me, I stake my life on scripture.
Exactly !
My query was more along the lines of an open-ended question . I said the rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control , going forward - how should folks proceed?
Your answer is perfect and I would say that goes ditto for me!
For me the question is: to rapture or not to rapture?
Since I’m not sure which way things will go, I feel the appropriate thing to do is to get into contingency planning. Contingency plans are usually developed to explore and prepare for anyeventuality.
To me Proverbs 27:12 speaks about contingency planning, because it speaks about someone who tries to predict possible worst case scenarios and will make plans to avoid a catastrophic failure (death or great harm to self and family, devastating financial ruin, etc.) but the foolish person (a non-planner - someone who doesn’t think ahead and plan) will rush ahead, do whatever’s convenient, and end up paying the penalty. Here are a few different versions – but the idea is the same:
The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NIV
A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…Proverbs 27:12 NLT
The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it…Proverbs 27:12 ESV
A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished…Proverbs 27: 12 KJV
A prudent person sees evil and hides himself; But the naive proceed, and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NASB
A prudent man sees evil and hides himself and avoids it, But the naive [who are easily misled] continue on and are punished [by suffering the consequences of sin]…Proverbs 27:12 Amplified
~ ~ ~ ~
One interesting article I found - What Is A Contingency Plan & How Do You Create One? – Forbes Advisor has some good ideas that one could apply to the issue to rapture or not to rapture?- Grease Spotters might enjoy reading the whole article – one key concept is this excerpt:
Contingency Planning vs. Crisis Management
Contingency planning is the process of creating a backup plan or several possible plans. This differs from crisis management, which is the actual response to a crisis. The actual response often utilizes one of the contingency plans created but addresses the incident in real time.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Maybe similar to your answer I am absolutely convinced I should respond to all situations in life in a manner that pleases God and honors Jesus Christ. However, being the frail human that I am, knowing how I’ve failed before – many times – means there’s the possibility I could chicken-out in a pinch yet to come.
That being said – I do what I can preparation-wise that could mitigate certain worse case scenarios. And being a follower of Jesus Christ I tend to be morally responsible and legal in my managing. Some of that can pivot either way to handling rapture or end times stuff.
For example: I legally own several firearms – I like to target shoot and plink – and hope I never have to use them to defend myself and family from a home-invasion.
If the rapture happens – and I get snatched , I hope all my earthly possessions – firearms, survival handbooks, emergency supplies, vehicle, home, books / study Bibles / extensive library of resources will fall into the right hands – hopefully people who God already knows will put those things to good use for His Glory and the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If on the other hand I am not snatched or there is no such thing as the rapture then I am somewhat geared up for end times stuff and I’m willing to share and serve.
My query was more along the lines of an open-ended question . I said the rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control , going forward - how should folks proceed?
Your answer is perfect and I would say that goes ditto for me!
For me the question is: to rapture or not to rapture?
Since I’m not sure which way things will go, I feel the appropriate thing to do is to get into contingency planning. Contingency plans are usually developed to explore and prepare for anyeventuality.
To me Proverbs 27:12 speaks about contingency planning, because it speaks about someone who tries to predict possible worst case scenarios and will make plans to avoid a catastrophic failure (death or great harm to self and family, devastating financial ruin, etc.) but the foolish person (a non-planner - someone who doesn’t think ahead and plan) will rush ahead, do whatever’s convenient, and end up paying the penalty. Here are a few different versions – but the idea is the same:
The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NIV
A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…Proverbs 27:12 NLT
The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it…Proverbs 27:12 ESV
A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished…Proverbs 27: 12 KJV
A prudent person sees evil and hides himself; But the naive proceed, and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NASB
A prudent man sees evil and hides himself and avoids it, But the naive [who are easily misled] continue on and are punished [by suffering the consequences of sin]…Proverbs 27:12 Amplified
~ ~ ~ ~
One interesting article I found - What Is A Contingency Plan & How Do You Create One? – Forbes Advisor has some good ideas that one could apply to the issue to rapture or not to rapture?- Grease Spotters might enjoy reading the whole article – one key concept is this excerpt:
Contingency Planning vs. Crisis Management
Contingency planning is the process of creating a backup plan or several possible plans. This differs from crisis management, which is the actual response to a crisis. The actual response often utilizes one of the contingency plans created but addresses the incident in real time.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Maybe similar to your answer I am absolutely convinced I should respond to all situations in life in a manner that pleases God and honors Jesus Christ. However, being the frail human that I am, knowing how I’ve failed before – many times – means there’s the possibility I could chicken-out in a pinch yet to come.
That being said – I do what I can preparation-wise that could mitigate certain worse case scenarios. And being a follower of Jesus Christ I tend to be morally responsible and legal in my managing. Some of that can pivot either way to handling rapture or end times stuff.
For example: I legally own several firearms – I like to target shoot and plink – and hope I never have to use them to defend myself and family from a home-invasion.
If the rapture happens – and I get snatched , I hope all my earthly possessions – firearms, survival handbooks, emergency supplies, vehicle, home, books / study Bibles / extensive library of resources will fall into the right hands – hopefully people who God already knows will put those things to good use for His Glory and the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If on the other hand I am not snatched or there is no such thing as the rapture then I am somewhat geared up for end times stuff and I’m willing to share and serve.
Rapture or no we are likely to endure hard times and persecution in the near future. Scripture promises all who live godly will endure persecution on one level or another. I think you are a wise man either way. Like I say it took a lot of reading, studying, praying, meditating to get where I'm utterly convinced. Take your time and enjoy the process. I have plenty of other topics that I'm still working through and enjoying the process as wel, so it's just a fun part of us growing up into Christ love the discourse...I'll likely respond in more detail later cause...I'm doing some hardcore chilling atm...I'll be around a lil later.
For me the question is: to rapture or not to rapture?
Well, just my thinking here based on a few scriptures that I will draw from. So, the great mystery is the body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles gathered and presented to God as one new man, and individually we give account and receive reward or suffer shame and loss depending on what we've done. Judgement is starts at the house of God and that's us. So, the rapture is taking us to the bema and to be forevermore changed. On earth the tribulation starts. When Christ comes to fight Armageddon we are with him and we help with his 1000 year reign. First thing happens at Christs 2nd coming (vs his previous appearing in the air) after beast, false prophet, etc are destroyed is the ressurecction of the just. Just a few thoughts. Please compare to scripture and lets go ahead and get out the demolition tools and see what happens...
Rapture or no we are likely to endure hard times and persecution in the near future. Scripture promises all who live godly will endure persecution on one level or another. I think you are a wise man either way. Like I say it took a lot of reading, studying, praying, meditating to get where I'm utterly convinced. Take your time and enjoy the process. I have plenty of other topics that I'm still working through and enjoying the process as wel, so it's just a fun part of us growing up into Christ love the discourse...I'll likely respond in more detail later cause...I'm doing some hardcore chilling atm...I'll be around a lil later.
Yeah, I'm with you on we're likely to endure hard times and persecution - figuring out what that encompasses is the challenge !
This stuff is one of my study projects too.
1 hour ago, OldSkool said:
Well, just my thinking here based on a few scriptures that I will draw from. So, the great mystery is the body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles gathered and presented to God as one new man, and individually we give account and receive reward or suffer shame and loss depending on what we've done. Judgement is starts at the house of God and that's us. So, the rapture is taking us to the bema and to be forevermore changed. On earth the tribulation starts. When Christ comes to fight Armageddon we are with him and we help with his 1000 year reign. First thing happens at Christs 2nd coming (vs his previous appearing in the air) after beast, false prophet, etc are destroyed is the ressurecction of the just. Just a few thoughts. Please compare to scripture and lets go ahead and get out the demolition tools and see what happens...
I would like oi explore more details on how much of a time span - if any - between dead in Christ raised / alive are changed and then Christ coming to fight Armageddon. Is it just moments...seconds apart? in other words - believers are snatched up to be with Christ as He is descending to kick bu++ ? In essence that would be a one-stage return - or if we want to get nitpicky in nanoseconds - it's a two-stage that: rally the troops up from the Earth - army staging area is in the clouds - then we turn around and come back with commander-in-chief Christ.
I've narrowed my focus to see if Scripture supports a one-stage or two-stage return of Christ.
The pretribulation argument that there are 'two phases' to Christ's coming (a rapture and a later second advent)[28] runs into difficulties with Acts 1:11, which nearly equates Christ's ascension to heaven with his second coming. Logically, the second coming cannot have two phases if the ascension only had one. This eliminates two phases of his coming with a 7-year interval. Likewise, heaven must "receive" or contain Jesus "until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from ancient time". Most scholarssee this "restoration of all things" as the one-thousand year reign of Christ on earth (as prophesied in the Old Testament) which begins just after the second advent. If Christ is to remain in heaven until this coming rule of his according to these verses (see also Hebrews 9:27,28), it would seem the next main prophetic event would be the second coming rather than him coming 7 years prior to get the church, bring them back to heaven, and then leaving heaven for earth again as the pre-tribulation rapture position indicates.
Pre-tribulation usage of Luke 17 can also be counterbalanced. In this eschatological scenario, Luke 17:37 explains what happens to the people that are "taken": the eagles gather together at their [dead] bodies. Do they eat them? "Taken" may also have the idea of judgment and that Luke 17:22–37 is referring to the unmistakable visual nature of the second coming. Even the disciples are warned not to believe reports that Christ has come if they have not seen it "for just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. Many take the fact that vultures hovering over a dead body is clearly visible from a great distance away to mean that the second coming will be clearly visible and will not be hidden. It seems that Luke 17 can be compared to Revelation 19, which reads that the fowls are invited to a feast—on the flesh of men, small and great, at the Lord's coming.
Does the Bible clearly teach the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture, or a two-stage return of Christ? Probably the best answer to these questions is “not really.” Nevertheless, many faithful Bible-believing Christians hold to the view the church will be removed prior to or during the tribulation to spare them from the wrath of God. Their view is supported by a number of biblical and theological arguments that do have merit.
However, if the two-stage return of Christ and rapture can only be substantiated by the theological system and hermeneutical practice of traditional dispensationalism, then there is a case for reasonable doubt.
On the other hand, there are ample historical, theological, and biblical reasons to view the seconding coming of Christ as a singular event instead of divided into two-stages. The notion of a two-stage return is not explicitly taught in scripture and is a relatively new doctrine in Christian theology.
What is more, the doctrine of the resurrection of believers and the transformation to a glorified body is well established in Christian theology, but has often been replaced with a rapture theology that may minimize the great hope of a future bodily resurrection. Regardless of what one believes about the rapture or its timing, it is not a matter of orthodoxy and heresy if believers disagree. A person’s fidelity to Christ and theological orthodoxy does not depend on belief in a two-stage return of Christ or a singular return. When Christ returns and the church is with him in glory, nobody will be disappointed or argue about how or when it all occurred.
And for good measure, thought I’d use Arlo Guthrie’s visual aid by throwing in a few pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one:
Yeah, I'm with you on we're likely to endure hard times and persecution - figuring out what that encompasses is the challenge !
This stuff is one of my study projects too.
I would like oi explore more details on how much of a time span - if any - between dead in Christ raised / alive are changed and then Christ coming to fight Armageddon. Is it just moments...seconds apart? in other words - believers are snatched up to be with Christ as He is descending to kick bu++ ? In essence that would be a one-stage return - or if we want to get nitpicky in nanoseconds - it's a two-stage that: rally the troops up from the Earth - army staging area is in the clouds - then we turn around and come back with commander-in-chief Christ.
I've narrowed my focus to see if Scripture supports a one-stage or two-stage return of Christ.
The pretribulation argument that there are 'two phases' to Christ's coming (a rapture and a later second advent)[28] runs into difficulties with Acts 1:11, which nearly equates Christ's ascension to heaven with his second coming. Logically, the second coming cannot have two phases if the ascension only had one. This eliminates two phases of his coming with a 7-year interval. Likewise, heaven must "receive" or contain Jesus "until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from ancient time". Most scholarssee this "restoration of all things" as the one-thousand year reign of Christ on earth (as prophesied in the Old Testament) which begins just after the second advent. If Christ is to remain in heaven until this coming rule of his according to these verses (see also Hebrews 9:27,28), it would seem the next main prophetic event would be the second coming rather than him coming 7 years prior to get the church, bring them back to heaven, and then leaving heaven for earth again as the pre-tribulation rapture position indicates.
Pre-tribulation usage of Luke 17 can also be counterbalanced. In this eschatological scenario, Luke 17:37 explains what happens to the people that are "taken": the eagles gather together at their [dead] bodies. Do they eat them? "Taken" may also have the idea of judgment and that Luke 17:22–37 is referring to the unmistakable visual nature of the second coming. Even the disciples are warned not to believe reports that Christ has come if they have not seen it "for just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. Many take the fact that vultures hovering over a dead body is clearly visible from a great distance away to mean that the second coming will be clearly visible and will not be hidden. It seems that Luke 17 can be compared to Revelation 19, which reads that the fowls are invited to a feast—on the flesh of men, small and great, at the Lord's coming.
Does the Bible clearly teach the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture, or a two-stage return of Christ? Probably the best answer to these questions is “not really.” Nevertheless, many faithful Bible-believing Christians hold to the view the church will be removed prior to or during the tribulation to spare them from the wrath of God. Their view is supported by a number of biblical and theological arguments that do have merit.
However, if the two-stage return of Christ and rapture can only be substantiated by the theological system and hermeneutical practice of traditional dispensationalism, then there is a case for reasonable doubt.
On the other hand, there are ample historical, theological, and biblical reasons to view the seconding coming of Christ as a singular event instead of divided into two-stages. The notion of a two-stage return is not explicitly taught in scripture and is a relatively new doctrine in Christian theology.
What is more, the doctrine of the resurrection of believers and the transformation to a glorified body is well established in Christian theology, but has often been replaced with a rapture theology that may minimize the great hope of a future bodily resurrection. Regardless of what one believes about the rapture or its timing, it is not a matter of orthodoxy and heresy if believers disagree. A person’s fidelity to Christ and theological orthodoxy does not depend on belief in a two-stage return of Christ or a singular return. When Christ returns and the church is with him in glory, nobody will be disappointed or argue about how or when it all occurred.
And for good measure, thought I’d use Arlo Guthrie’s visual aid by throwing in a few pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one:
Very cool post. Ill respond a little later as I wanna go over it in detail later this afternoon. thanks!!
My query was more along the lines of an open-ended question . I said the rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control , going forward - how should folks proceed?
Your answer is perfect and I would say that goes ditto for me!
For me the question is: to rapture or not to rapture?
Since I’m not sure which way things will go, I feel the appropriate thing to do is to get into contingency planning. Contingency plans are usually developed to explore and prepare for anyeventuality.
To me Proverbs 27:12 speaks about contingency planning, because it speaks about someone who tries to predict possible worst case scenarios and will make plans to avoid a catastrophic failure (death or great harm to self and family, devastating financial ruin, etc.) but the foolish person (a non-planner - someone who doesn’t think ahead and plan) will rush ahead, do whatever’s convenient, and end up paying the penalty. Here are a few different versions – but the idea is the same:
The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NIV
A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…Proverbs 27:12 NLT
The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it…Proverbs 27:12 ESV
A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished…Proverbs 27: 12 KJV
A prudent person sees evil and hides himself; But the naive proceed, and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NASB
A prudent man sees evil and hides himself and avoids it, But the naive [who are easily misled] continue on and are punished [by suffering the consequences of sin]…Proverbs 27:12 Amplified
~ ~ ~ ~
One interesting article I found - What Is A Contingency Plan & How Do You Create One? – Forbes Advisor has some good ideas that one could apply to the issue to rapture or not to rapture?- Grease Spotters might enjoy reading the whole article – one key concept is this excerpt:
Contingency Planning vs. Crisis Management
Contingency planning is the process of creating a backup plan or several possible plans. This differs from crisis management, which is the actual response to a crisis. The actual response often utilizes one of the contingency plans created but addresses the incident in real time.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Maybe similar to your answer I am absolutely convinced I should respond to all situations in life in a manner that pleases God and honors Jesus Christ. However, being the frail human that I am, knowing how I’ve failed before – many times – means there’s the possibility I could chicken-out in a pinch yet to come.
That being said – I do what I can preparation-wise that could mitigate certain worse case scenarios. And being a follower of Jesus Christ I tend to be morally responsible and legal in my managing. Some of that can pivot either way to handling rapture or end times stuff.
For example: I legally own several firearms – I like to target shoot and plink – and hope I never have to use them to defend myself and family from a home-invasion.
If the rapture happens – and I get snatched , I hope all my earthly possessions – firearms, survival handbooks, emergency supplies, vehicle, home, books / study Bibles / extensive library of resources will fall into the right hands – hopefully people who God already knows will put those things to good use for His Glory and the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If on the other hand I am not snatched or there is no such thing as the rapture then I am somewhat geared up for end times stuff and I’m willing to share and serve.
On 4/23/2023 at 2:06 PM, OldSkool said:
Rapture or no we are likely to endure hard times and persecution in the near future. Scripture promises all who live godly will endure persecution on one level or another. I think you are a wise man either way. Like I say it took a lot of reading, studying, praying, meditating to get where I'm utterly convinced. Take your time and enjoy the process. I have plenty of other topics that I'm still working through and enjoying the process as wel, so it's just a fun part of us growing up into Christ love the discourse...I'll likely respond in more detail later cause...I'm doing some hardcore chilling atm...I'll be around a lil later.
21 hours ago, OldSkool said:
Well, just my thinking here based on a few scriptures that I will draw from. So, the great mystery is the body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles gathered and presented to God as one new man, and individually we give account and receive reward or suffer shame and loss depending on what we've done. Judgement is starts at the house of God and that's us. So, the rapture is taking us to the bema and to be forevermore changed. On earth the tribulation starts. When Christ comes to fight Armageddon we are with him and we help with his 1000 year reign. First thing happens at Christs 2nd coming (vs his previous appearing in the air) after beast, false prophet, etc are destroyed is the ressurecction of the just. Just a few thoughts. Please compare to scripture and lets go ahead and get out the demolition tools and see what happens...
Pursuant to contingency planning for rapturing and apocalypting , a bit of urban philosophy from
Contrary to popular belief, it’s not the strongest nor the fittest nor the smartest who survive.
Dinosaurs alone showed us how wrong that theory is. Some of them were strong, some were smart, but none of them saw extinction coming!
The predictors. Those who can most accurately predict change can adapt to change and therefore survive. The good news is you are a prediction machine. It’s the single reason why we as a species have stayed around as long as we have.
Our ability to see things before they happen allows us to adjust and stay safe. We do that by remembering, by keeping score of what’s good, what’s bad, what’s right, what’s wrong, what doesn’t work, and all via a massive trench of memories stored in the banks of our subconscious for reference and guidance.
You have spent your entire life keeping track, looking for familiar keys to where things are headed, following a life of the familiar.
Oh, they all act like I used to~when I was 20 and first got in TWI.....sickly sweet,hugging, helping everyone move...... all the while distancing myself from anyone who wasn't interested or wanted to be involved with it. (like my family!)
I have read many desperate mothers searching for answers to why their child WON'T leave this, and/or why these kids were told to NOT TALK to their parents for a year because they don't believe in or they ask too many questions.
Sad. Seems the vulnerability with this age range runs deep and these wolves know just how to stalk and attack the coup!
I learned years later all that the Wow ambassadors' sicky-sweetness was fake. Some analyst call it "love bombing". They would shower you with love and think you are just the most interesting person they have ever met. But over time, once you are in the fold that sicky sweet veneer wears off real fast. I can't say that for all people, their are plenty of good people the ministry. The Way Corps people could be so mean-spirited it would cause one to take pause and ask one's self, why am I continuously tolerating this verbal abuse? The leader was always right and you were reprimanded if you even thought anything to the contrary. They said it is part of "The Mystery". The mystery is why I stayed too long at the fair. So glad got out of it, it was very difficult for me, but God found a way for me.
They said it is part of "The Mystery". The mystery is why I stayed too long at the fair. So glad got out of it, it was very difficult for me, but God found a way for me.
Another example of the way international taking a scriptural reality and abusing it by what they teach and practice. I endured the love bombing as well....the way corps training is so introspective and legalistic I think it's desinged to turn out hard edged so called leaders.
The way international shouldnt ever speak on the mystery since they reject Christ as a person who accomplished something for them and a name sake to tack on the end of a prayer to make sure it makes it up to heaven. Sad really, they try to take him from the living Chrsit to the absent Christ.
Oh, they all act like I used to~when I was 20 and first got in TWI.....sickly sweet,hugging, helping everyone move...... all the while distancing myself from anyone who wasn't interested or wanted to be involved with it. (like my family!)
I have read many desperate mothers searching for answers to why their child WON'T leave this, and/or why these kids were told to NOT TALK to their parents for a year because they don't believe in or they ask too many questions.
Sad. Seems the vulnerability with this age range runs deep and these wolves know just how to stalk and attack the coup!
As it turned out my experience was completely opposite, i.e., my Mom was attending twig a full year before the rest of the family followed her lead. A fitting word for Mom today, on Mothers Day. Happy Mothers Day to all!
Another example of the way international taking a scriptural reality and abusing it by what they teach and practice. I endured the love bombing as well....the way corps training is so introspective and legalistic I think it's desinged to turn out hard edged so called leaders.
The way international shouldnt ever speak on the mystery since they reject Christ as a person who accomplished something for them and a name sake to tack on the end of a prayer to make sure it makes it up to heaven. Sad really, they try to take him from the living Chrsit to the absent Christ.
I knew about the legalism in twi, but the introspective part is new to me. OldSkool, can you explain how that worked?
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chockfull
Ah yes the Mystery! This is that concept where Jews and Gentiles are together with one Lord and Savior and together in one body of Christ. Except - 1. Did they take “the class” yet? If no
little_rock
I learned years later all that the Wow ambassadors' sicky-sweetness was fake. Some analyst call it "love bombing". They would shower you with love and think you are just the most interesting person th
Twinky
That sounds so TWI-ish. The "standing in the gap" dange and "participate and be special." Ugh. Good if Christians can come together to pray for common cause. Bad if Christians get elitist abou
T-Bone
Just some quick thoughts
Review the passages below and then ask yourself the following questions – and for now I’ll put myself on the line, so you’ll see my answer right below each question in bold red :
1. Is it possible Christ’s return as described in Matthew 24 is the same event as that mentioned in I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4?
T-Bone’s response: currently I lean toward them all speaking to the same event – but obviously having different aspects – physically, spiritually, symbolically. But check back with me next week – I could change my mind…just kidding. If you have not done so already – review the 2 Dr. Heiser hyperlinks I posted on eschatology.
2. Does the mystery of Christ that Paul talks about in Ephesians 1 & 4 suggest there is a rapture / gathering together aspect that is a separate and distinct event from what’s mentioned in Matt. 24, I Cor. 15 and I Thess. 4?
T-Bone’s response: I don’t think so. The mystery of Christ mentioned in Ephesians talks about unity of Jews and Gentiles being heirs together and of the same body with Christ as the head. I also Googled “was Jesus aware of the Gentiles being included?” and found this:
Jews and Gentiles are often put in contrast with one another because what separates them is whether they believe in God or not. However, when the scope of Scripture is taken into account, God’s plan of redemption has always included the Gentiles. Before His death and resurrection, Jesus told His disciples to go into all nations sharing the Gospel and baptizing all people. Paul wrote clearly that Jesus’ saving work was for all to receive and that no longer was Jewish descent what saved someone, rather, it was belief in Jesus Christ.
From: Gentiles - Their Meaning from the Bible (biblestudytools.com)
And also found this:
The vision of a kingdom that included Jews and Gentiles was part of Jesus’ plan from the very beginning of His ministry.
Jesus’ first sermon in his hometown of Nazareth demonstrates that His life purpose extended far beyond the nation of Israel. He was not surprised that His own people — the Jews — did not receive His message. “That’s the way it has always been,” He said. (Luke 4:24, author’s paraphrase). He then gave an example: “There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah … and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow” (Luke 4:25-26, ESV). His hearers knew the rest of the story told in the Old Testament book of 1 Kings 17. Received into a Gentile home, Elijah performed the remarkable miracle of replenishing the flour and oil, then later restored the widow’s son to life — not a Jewish widow, but a Gentile!
Did Jesus Come to Reach the Gentiles? | Cru
You might enjoy reading the entire article of both above links – very informative and Scripture-wise makes sense.
Another thing to think about is how we get caught up in labels and who identifies with what group. Those are physical. The church of Christ – the family of God – is an invisible church. Is it possible some lady who is a practicing Jew, attending synagogue, etc. could also belong to the invisible church of Christ? Is Christ so petty as to demand we join a church with a certain creed?
3. In other words, are there 3 phases to Christ’s coming?
A. He came the first time per the narrative of the gospels.
B. He will come a second time for the rapture / gathering together of believers dead and alive.
C. He will come a third time (traditionally this has been referred to as Christ’s second coming).
T-Bone’s response: So far, I lean more and more on there being only two comings – Christ first coming is per the gospel narratives and the second - what’s described in Matt 24, I Cor 15, I Thess 4 and book of Revelation. Logically and doctrinally, this seems to make more sense to me than there being a secret plan that even Jesus did not know about – a secret plan that was revealed to Paul and maybe some other apostles first. What is the purpose of this secret plan? I will admit the rapture / gathering together is an attractive idea because I'm squeamish when it comes to suffering and inconveniences.
4. What would be the purpose of Jesus Christ coming back to snatch away just believers - alive and dead at the time – only to expect a new batch of believers to rise up and spread the gospel of Christ again?
T-Bone’s response: seems kind of redundant to me.
Matthew 24 NIV (biblehub.com)
1 Corinthians 15 NIV (biblehub.com)
Ephesians 1 NIV (biblehub.com)
Ephesians 3 NIV (biblehub.com)
1 Thessalonians 4 NIV (biblehub.com)
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Charity
So that would explain why Jesus didn't mention it in Matthew 24 with all the other end time events. Thanks OldSkool.
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OldSkool
Which is where a lot of the confusion comes in because various theologies don't respect the sign posts in scripture so to speak. Then theres the thing with Christianity believing that Jesus is God the Son and all knowing like God Almighty. While, Christ has been elevated, glorfied into something I don't comprehend at this time, he is part of the Godhead...whatever that is, I do not think he is God though. Same ole reasons: Christ was tempted with evil, isn't all knowing, scripture calls him a man, etc. But I do think there is a lot more to understand about his divine nature coming from God, etc.
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Rocky
From A Short History of Myth, Karen Armstrong mentions a point of history of the trinity.
He [Isaac Newton] felt that he had a mission to purge Christianity of such doctrines as the Trinity, which defied the laws of logic. He was quite unable to see that this doctrine had been devised by the Greek theologians of the fourth century precisely as a myth, similar to that of the Jewish Kabbalists. As Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (335–395), had explained, Father, Son and Spirit were not objective, ontological facts but simply ‘terms that we use’ to express the way in which the ‘unnameable and unspeakable’ divine nature adapts itself to the limitations of our human minds. You could not prove the existence of the Trinity by rational means. It was no more demonstrable than the elusive meaning of music or poetry. But Newton could only approach the Trinity rationally. If something could not be explained logically, it was false. ‘’Tis the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion,’ he wrote irritably, ‘ever to be fond of mysteries & for that reason to like best what they understand least.’
Armstrong, Karen. A Short History of Myth (Canongate Myths series) (p. 132). Canongate Books. Kindle Edition.
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OldSkool
Thats a really good point, Rocky. I think we see this in the parables taught by Jesus where the Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto.....and then the parable would contain lessons on God and his creation in ways that could be easily understood.
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Charity
Someone has recently shared with me that real cult leaders hang on forever to an organization they have founded because they are narcissists. In other words, they don't pass on all leadership roles to others and move away from what they've built to build something that is bigger and better.
A few posters have shared information about narcissists. I need a website that confirms that the opposite to this is not only possible but most likely.
I know vp never moved on to start a new ministry under a new name with greater claims of what God has called him to do but Bickle has quite a few times.
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Rocky
I'm not sure finding a website to confirm the opposite is possible is really going to be helpful, even if you find it.
What you might rather be better off with is reading books about social and psychological issues to get a broader perspective.
Finding a single data point to prove what you might already believe or how you might currently understand something isn't necessarily productive. I'd point you to Proverbs 2: 1-5 for related biblical insight.
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T-Bone
Sorry – not sure what you’re looking for…could a person have cult-leader type characteristics and start more than one cult? I imagine so. Could it mean they are not a narcissist because they have their fingers in a lot of pies – I don’t know.
Not sure if you’re looking to make a correlation with narcissism and cult-leader personality types – what I would look at is how to identify a narcissist and a cult-leader and just see where the trails lead – where the intersect and diverge…here’s a few I just found by Googling “Are cult leaders always narcissists?”:
9 Ways Many Narcissists Behave Like Cult Leaders | Psychology Today
Cult Leaders May Be Suffering From Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Mental Health Matters Cofe (mentalhealthmatters-cofe.org)
Why People Become Narcissists, Gaslighters and Cult Members | Psychology Today
14 Ways Narcissists Can Be Like Cult Leaders (psychcentral.com)
Cult leaders and the psychological traits that make people want to follow them (ibtimes.co.uk)
8 Ways Narcissists Are Like Cult Leaders - Kim Saeed
Malignant Narcissism: Stereotypical Characteristics of a Cult Leader - Freedom of Mind Resource Center
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Charity
Those are wonderful verses Rocky - thanks for sharing them. I'll reword what I wrote previously to saying that I would like to know if a characteristic of a narcissist is a progression that leads to needing more power, more attention, more fame, etc. I did a google search for myself and the couple I looked at described what is called grandiose narcissism which was listed as a different type, not as a progression from narcissism to greater narcissism.
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T-Bone
The problem I with that is I don’t see the sequence in Scripture of God revealing the rapture to Christ - then Christ tells Paul.
Seems to me some folks are assuming or inserting an event that might not belong where they say it does - or that it’s even a thing…makes me think of Darby/Bullinger/wierwille stuff on there being -what is it supposed to be - 7 administrations…I used to believe there was following wierwille jumping all over the place to explain it…I don’t think the Bible works that way.
Maybe the rapture was not mentioned in Matthew 24 because it’s a modern misconception. How do we know Paul, John and other apostles thought there is supposed to be a rapture before end times events?
Signposts are supposed to be clear signals of direction or of something up ahead. I suggest there’s confusion - but not because certain folks don’t respect the signposts - maybe it’s because the signposts are not as definitively clear as we’d like them to be.
I’ve lost count of the commentaries and study Bibles on book of Revelation I’ve studied. There’s quite a variety of opinion on the who what when where and how of end times stuff.
What if the rapture - or the end times doesn’t start for another 2,000 years?
The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!
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OldSkool
Gal 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
All I have to offer is clear scripture on the subject. Personally, I believe what is written over commentaries, scholars, experts, intellectuals, etc.
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T-Bone
It looks to me that Paul is referring to “the gospel “:
1I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.…Galatians 1:11,12
I don’t see how the idea of the rapture should be included in “the gospel” Paul received by revelation and preached. It seems to me you’re packing more content into “the gospel “ than what was intended by Paul.
I think you’re correct to focus on clear Scripture rather than being swayed by commentaries, experts, etc..let’s apply that to defining “the gospel”. What is included in that?
Here’s how Jesus described the gospel in Matthew 28:18-20,: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.”
Something he repeated again in Acts 1: 6 - 8.
So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
In Romans 1:16, 17 it looks to me like Paul is adhering to the same specific mandate that Jesus gave:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is God’s saving power for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith, as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.”
~ ~ ~ ~
In II Thessalonians Paul warns believers not to be deceived and mentions a departure and the man of sin revealed. If you compare the motifs that Jesus moved through in Matthew 24 NIV
Paul echoes them in II Thessalonians 2 NIV
Both passages use Greek word for “coming”
Both passages mention gathering of God’s people at the end
Both passages mention lawlessness / rebellion / falling from faith
Both passages mention abomination in the temple
Both passages mention false prophets, false signs and wonders
~ ~ ~ ~
My point is II Thessalonians 2 does NOT appear to be any new revelations about the 2nd coming of Christ - but rather it’s a reiteration of what Jesus said.
~ ~ ~ ~
I respect your opinion and personally I prefer the rapture scenario over going through end times - cuz I’m a scaredy cat
. And I acknowledge I’m just explaining my opinion too. Scripture-wise I don’t think the rapture concept is that clear or solid compared to the basics of Christianity - the gospel message.
I always enjoy the Socratic method. This stuff is especially cool to explore! The biggest issue on this is to ask are there any practical concerns I should think about. That’s why I ended my previous post by saying:
The rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control. Going forward - how should folks proceed? It’s a serious question!
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OldSkool
Paul's gospel is in his writings. It's in the epistles the gathering/rapture is revealed/explained. I studied the topic in detail for close to two years before coming right back where I started. Rapture/resurrection of the just/1000 year reign on earth under Christ's rule/resurrection of the unjust.
It's not beyond our knowledge, perhaps beyond our understanding as to what these events actually will mean or be like, but we do know about the various events from scripture.
As to what folks should do? For me, I stake my life on scripture.
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T-Bone
Exactly !
My query was more along the lines of an open-ended question . I said the rapture - or the end times is something beyond our knowledge and control , going forward - how should folks proceed?
Your answer is perfect and I would say that goes ditto for me!
For me the question is: to rapture or not to rapture?
Since I’m not sure which way things will go, I feel the appropriate thing to do is to get into contingency planning. Contingency plans are usually developed to explore and prepare for any eventuality.
To me Proverbs 27:12 speaks about contingency planning, because it speaks about someone who tries to predict possible worst case scenarios and will make plans to avoid a catastrophic failure (death or great harm to self and family, devastating financial ruin, etc.) but the foolish person (a non-planner - someone who doesn’t think ahead and plan) will rush ahead, do whatever’s convenient, and end up paying the penalty. Here are a few different versions – but the idea is the same:
The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NIV
A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…Proverbs 27:12 NLT
The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it…Proverbs 27:12 ESV
A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished…Proverbs 27: 12 KJV
A prudent person sees evil and hides himself; But the naive proceed, and pay the penalty…Proverbs 27:12 NASB
A prudent man sees evil and hides himself and avoids it, But the naive [who are easily misled] continue on and are punished [by suffering the consequences of sin]…Proverbs 27:12 Amplified
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One interesting article I found - What Is A Contingency Plan & How Do You Create One? – Forbes Advisor has some good ideas that one could apply to the issue to rapture or not to rapture? - Grease Spotters might enjoy reading the whole article – one key concept is this excerpt:
Contingency Planning vs. Crisis Management
Contingency planning is the process of creating a backup plan or several possible plans. This differs from crisis management, which is the actual response to a crisis. The actual response often utilizes one of the contingency plans created but addresses the incident in real time.
End of excerpt
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Maybe similar to your answer I am absolutely convinced I should respond to all situations in life in a manner that pleases God and honors Jesus Christ. However, being the frail human that I am, knowing how I’ve failed before – many times – means there’s the possibility I could chicken-out in a pinch yet to come.
That being said – I do what I can preparation-wise that could mitigate certain worse case scenarios. And being a follower of Jesus Christ I tend to be morally responsible and legal in my managing. Some of that can pivot either way to handling rapture or end times stuff.
For example: I legally own several firearms – I like to target shoot and plink – and hope I never have to use them to defend myself and family from a home-invasion.
If the rapture happens – and I get snatched , I hope all my earthly possessions – firearms, survival handbooks, emergency supplies, vehicle, home, books / study Bibles / extensive library of resources will fall into the right hands – hopefully people who God already knows will put those things to good use for His Glory and the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If on the other hand I am not snatched or there is no such thing as the rapture then I am somewhat geared up for end times stuff and I’m willing to share and serve.
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OldSkool
Rapture or no we are likely to endure hard times and persecution in the near future. Scripture promises all who live godly will endure persecution on one level or another. I think you are a wise man either way. Like I say it took a lot of reading, studying, praying, meditating to get where I'm utterly convinced. Take your time and enjoy the process. I have plenty of other topics that I'm still working through and enjoying the process as wel, so it's just a fun part of us growing up into Christ love the discourse...I'll likely respond in more detail later cause...I'm doing some hardcore chilling atm...I'll be around a lil later.
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OldSkool
Well, just my thinking here based on a few scriptures that I will draw from. So, the great mystery is the body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles gathered and presented to God as one new man, and individually we give account and receive reward or suffer shame and loss depending on what we've done. Judgement is starts at the house of God and that's us. So, the rapture is taking us to the bema and to be forevermore changed. On earth the tribulation starts. When Christ comes to fight Armageddon we are with him and we help with his 1000 year reign. First thing happens at Christs 2nd coming (vs his previous appearing in the air) after beast, false prophet, etc are destroyed is the ressurecction of the just. Just a few thoughts. Please compare to scripture and lets go ahead and get out the demolition tools and see what happens...
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T-Bone
Yeah, I'm with you on we're likely to endure hard times and persecution - figuring out what that encompasses is the challenge !
This stuff is one of my study projects too.
I would like oi explore more details on how much of a time span - if any - between dead in Christ raised / alive are changed and then Christ coming to fight Armageddon. Is it just moments...seconds apart? in other words - believers are snatched up to be with Christ as He is descending to kick bu++ ? In essence that would be a one-stage return - or if we want to get nitpicky in nanoseconds - it's a two-stage that: rally the troops up from the Earth - army staging area is in the clouds - then we turn around and come back with commander-in-chief Christ.
I've narrowed my focus to see if Scripture supports a one-stage or two-stage return of Christ.
The pretribulation argument that there are 'two phases' to Christ's coming (a rapture and a later second advent)[28] runs into difficulties with Acts 1:11, which nearly equates Christ's ascension to heaven with his second coming. Logically, the second coming cannot have two phases if the ascension only had one. This eliminates two phases of his coming with a 7-year interval. Likewise, heaven must "receive" or contain Jesus "until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from ancient time". Most scholars see this "restoration of all things" as the one-thousand year reign of Christ on earth (as prophesied in the Old Testament) which begins just after the second advent. If Christ is to remain in heaven until this coming rule of his according to these verses (see also Hebrews 9:27,28), it would seem the next main prophetic event would be the second coming rather than him coming 7 years prior to get the church, bring them back to heaven, and then leaving heaven for earth again as the pre-tribulation rapture position indicates.
Pre-tribulation usage of Luke 17 can also be counterbalanced. In this eschatological scenario, Luke 17:37 explains what happens to the people that are "taken": the eagles gather together at their [dead] bodies. Do they eat them? "Taken" may also have the idea of judgment and that Luke 17:22–37 is referring to the unmistakable visual nature of the second coming. Even the disciples are warned not to believe reports that Christ has come if they have not seen it "for just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. Many take the fact that vultures hovering over a dead body is clearly visible from a great distance away to mean that the second coming will be clearly visible and will not be hidden. It seems that Luke 17 can be compared to Revelation 19, which reads that the fowls are invited to a feast—on the flesh of men, small and great, at the Lord's coming.
From: Post-tribulation rapture - Wikipedia
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Does the Bible clearly teach the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture, or a two-stage return of Christ? Probably the best answer to these questions is “not really.” Nevertheless, many faithful Bible-believing Christians hold to the view the church will be removed prior to or during the tribulation to spare them from the wrath of God. Their view is supported by a number of biblical and theological arguments that do have merit.
However, if the two-stage return of Christ and rapture can only be substantiated by the theological system and hermeneutical practice of traditional dispensationalism, then there is a case for reasonable doubt.
On the other hand, there are ample historical, theological, and biblical reasons to view the seconding coming of Christ as a singular event instead of divided into two-stages. The notion of a two-stage return is not explicitly taught in scripture and is a relatively new doctrine in Christian theology.
What is more, the doctrine of the resurrection of believers and the transformation to a glorified body is well established in Christian theology, but has often been replaced with a rapture theology that may minimize the great hope of a future bodily resurrection. Regardless of what one believes about the rapture or its timing, it is not a matter of orthodoxy and heresy if believers disagree. A person’s fidelity to Christ and theological orthodoxy does not depend on belief in a two-stage return of Christ or a singular return. When Christ returns and the church is with him in glory, nobody will be disappointed or argue about how or when it all occurred.
From: The Rapture Question - The Gospel Coalition
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And for good measure, thought I’d use Arlo Guthrie’s visual aid by throwing in a few pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one:
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OldSkool
Very cool post. Ill respond a little later as I wanna go over it in detail later this afternoon. thanks!!
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T-Bone
Pursuant to contingency planning for rapturing and apocalypting
, a bit of urban philosophy from
Stop Doing That $hit: End Self-Sabotage and Demand Your Life Back by Gary John Bishop :
SURVIVAL OF THE OBVIOUS
Contrary to popular belief, it’s not the strongest nor the fittest nor the smartest who survive.
Dinosaurs alone showed us how wrong that theory is. Some of them were strong, some were smart, but none of them saw extinction coming!
The predictors. Those who can most accurately predict change can adapt to change and therefore survive. The good news is you are a prediction machine. It’s the single reason why we as a species have stayed around as long as we have.
Our ability to see things before they happen allows us to adjust and stay safe. We do that by remembering, by keeping score of what’s good, what’s bad, what’s right, what’s wrong, what doesn’t work, and all via a massive trench of memories stored in the banks of our subconscious for reference and guidance.
You have spent your entire life keeping track, looking for familiar keys to where things are headed, following a life of the familiar.
End of excerpts from page 41 & 42
Edited by T-BoneStop editing that $hit
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little_rock
I learned years later all that the Wow ambassadors' sicky-sweetness was fake. Some analyst call it "love bombing". They would shower you with love and think you are just the most interesting person they have ever met. But over time, once you are in the fold that sicky sweet veneer wears off real fast. I can't say that for all people, their are plenty of good people the ministry. The Way Corps people could be so mean-spirited it would cause one to take pause and ask one's self, why am I continuously tolerating this verbal abuse? The leader was always right and you were reprimanded if you even thought anything to the contrary. They said it is part of "The Mystery". The mystery is why I stayed too long at the fair. So glad got out of it, it was very difficult for me, but God found a way for me.
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waysider
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OldSkool
Another example of the way international taking a scriptural reality and abusing it by what they teach and practice. I endured the love bombing as well....the way corps training is so introspective and legalistic I think it's desinged to turn out hard edged so called leaders.
The way international shouldnt ever speak on the mystery since they reject Christ as a person who accomplished something for them and a name sake to tack on the end of a prayer to make sure it makes it up to heaven. Sad really, they try to take him from the living Chrsit to the absent Christ.
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oldiesman
As it turned out my experience was completely opposite, i.e., my Mom was attending twig a full year before the rest of the family followed her lead. A fitting word for Mom today, on Mothers Day. Happy Mothers Day to all!
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Charity
I knew about the legalism in twi, but the introspective part is new to me. OldSkool, can you explain how that worked?
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