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~IHOP ~
International House of Prayer- Kansas City ( they pray 24/7)
Seems these ''personal questions'' are really to be used AGAINST the student applicant at some other time......like prophesies directed toward them, weaknesses, they know exactly who is going to their schools and so they know how you think, what "Words from God" to give you, and how to manipulate you...
Sound familiar?
Bliss, there is an IHOP here in DC, so I Goggled them. Another Cult, no thanks!!
After spending over a week reading about Mike Bickle’s doctrines and his International House of Prayer (IHOP), as well as looking at websites which describe IHOP as a cult, my fellowship with Christ and any fruit of the spirit in my life I had took a nosedive. It was only when I realized I needed a break from “all things Bickle” and began reading Philippians that my heart almost instantly became lighter and the vice on my brain loosened.
It now makes me wonder though what happens to Christians, especially young ones, when they are fed a steady diet of only one particular food group at the expense of the others. This is what I believe Mike Bickle and his International House of Prayer is doing.
His particular food group or focus of scripture is on the end times where he emphasizes the church as being the beloved bride of Christ calling for her bridegroom (based on the Song of Solomon and Revelation 22:17), the role prayer and songs of worship (as in his 24/7 prayer house) play in bringing about the return of Christ; and his plan to build an insatiable hunger in young people to participate in these two aspects of his ministry.
This hunger is an extremely emotional one, is deepened by the isolation of his intern program for 18-25 year olds and is heavily fed with prophetic words given by every Tom, Dick and Harry who graduate from his “School of Messengers.” (SOM is for believers who sense a call to be prophetic messengers as voices and light to others.)
The point is - it’s not just the errors in his end-time teachings (which for me at this time is mostly based on what others say who have studied his work) but it’s the fact that they overshadow our walk with Christ. It's very similar to how the "upmost" importance of vp's doctrine, drive, push, vision for every twi believer to move the word PFAL over the world encompassed our lives and diminished our relationship with Christ.
After spending over a week reading about Mike Bickle’s doctrines and his International House of Prayer (IHOP), as well as looking at websites which describe IHOP as a cult, my fellowship with Christ and any fruit of the spirit in my life I had took a nosedive. It was only when I realized I needed a break from “all things Bickle” and began reading Philippians that my heart almost instantly became lighter and the vice on my brain loosened.
It now makes me wonder though what happens to Christians, especially young ones, when they are fed a steady diet of only one particular food group at the expense of the others. This is what I believe Mike Bickle and his International House of Prayer is doing.
His particular food group or focus of scripture is on the end times where he emphasizes the church as being the beloved bride of Christ calling for her bridegroom (based on the Song of Solomon and Revelation 22:17), the role prayer and songs of worship (as in his 24/7 prayer house) play in bringing about the return of Christ; and his plan to build an insatiable hunger in young people to participate in these two aspects of his ministry.
This hunger is an extremely emotional one, is deepened by the isolation of his intern program for 18-25 year olds and is heavily fed with prophetic words given by every Tom, Dick and Harry who graduate from his “School of Messengers.” (SOM is for believers who sense a call to be prophetic messengers as voices and light to others.)
The point is - it’s not just the errors in his end-time teachings (which for me at this time is mostly based on what others say who have studied his work) but it’s the fact that they overshadow our walk with Christ. It's very similar to how the "upmost" importance of vp's doctrine, drive, push, vision for every twi believer to move the word PFAL over the world encompassed our lives and diminished our relationship with Christ.
Great post, Charity !!!!
I learn so much from reading about how others navigate this unusual journey through often treacherous waters.
End times is a toughie – and on stuff like that I consider all options on the table until I find definitive proof something is untenable…this year I’ve been checking out some of the late Dr. Heiser’s stuff and currently I’m leaning more towards the idea that “the rapture” is a misunderstanding of certain Scriptures that may be addressing the same concept presented in the book of Revelation…here’s a couple of hyperlinks as food for thought:
Even if "the rapture" doctrine is correct - TWI misused it to encourage people to take no thought about the future - because it could happen any second - with addendum thoughts like since we're going to heaven anyway you can do whatever you want now - one can interpret that anyway you want - but for those who have deadened consciences it could mean they can live like the devil!
I like to think of myself as tech support for and with the sinners and saints…or TSFAWTSAS for short.That’s not to say I know a lot – just that I figured out how a few things work – and so have others – and using the fundamentalist’s dichotomyof sinners and saints, I learn from others no matter their belief system and like to share what I’ve learned…it’s a whole give-and-take thing.
Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far. (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)
As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)?
Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far. (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)
As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)?
Hi Charity, to answer your question - yes I have - explanation to follow .
Thanks for the hyperlink – I have copied that to a laptop file for further analysis sometime in the near future – I have several light and heavy reading and studying projects going on right now…However, I did copy and paste some excerpts below – it’s in my standard bold blue fontto indicate it’s copied from the noted source…rather than offering a point-by-point critique I chose to designate dubious sections in bold red font. Grease Spotters can draw their own conclusions from this article.
and when I say check them out – it might take a little work (depending on how much one has bought into wierwille’s teachings like 4 crucified, the Holy Spirit/holy spirit, 6 cocks-a-crowingwhere he would join different passages together that shouldn’t be – or split the same account into separate events – you’ll see what I mean about being “a joiner” or a “splitter” once you listen to Heiser’s prophecy + eschatology: rapture You Tube.).
2.In light of the title of this thread – I’m sure a lot of cult-survivors who read this article will see similarities of IHOP with TWI as far as generating a spiritual elitism attitude, manipulative jargon, and ‘self-assuming greatness’.
~ ~ ~ ~
Excerpts from the Christian Research Institute hyperlink:
…Today, the primary interpretative systems of biblical eschatology are known as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism,9 and within these distinct systems there are varying perspectives. Bickle identifies his end-time teaching as an exclusive brand of premillennialism that he calls “apostolic premillennialism.”
Apostolic Premillennialism
Bickle distinguishes his apostolic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism by rejecting a pretribulation rapture for a conquering church that prays and ministers through Revelation’s Great Tribulation, resulting in the salvation of Israel and the largest mission harvest in history. Otherwise, Bickle’s apostolic premillennialism differs little from dispensational premillennialism and incorporates many of the core interpretative and chronological scenarios popularized by Hal Lindsey. These include, for example, a literalist hermeneutic of the Book of Revelation, separate redemptive plans for Israel and the church, a personal Antichrist leading a revived Roman empire and one-world government, a rebuilt Jerusalem temple and reinstituted sacrificial system, the mark of the beast as a microchip implanted in the hand or forehead, a seven-year Great Tribulation, and the earthly millennial reign of Jesus following His second coming.
Bickle uses the adjective “apostolic” in describing his premillennialism in an effort to emphasize the kind of church he is laboring to build. He believes he is preparing an army of Christians who will triumph during the soon-coming crisis of the Antichrist’s global rule and the Great Tribulation.
He preaches a self-identified apostolic Christianity characterized by intimacy with Jesus as bridegroom, wholehearted fulfillment of the Great Commandment, self-denial holiness, Sermon-on-the-Mount living, Holy Spirit empowerment, justice, fasting, prayer, and worship. Whereas Bickle has taught many of these worthy topics since the 1980s, my primary concern is that in the last couple of years he has begun to reteach them, wrapping them tightly in his exclusive end-time teaching and his distinct interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
Forerunner Eschatology
You don’t have to be around the IHOP movement very long before you are exposed to a large glossary of insider terms and phrases, such as wilderness lifestyle, friend of the Bridegroom, Daniel anointing, eating the scroll, fasted lifestyle, burning and shining lamps, wholehearted lovers, zones of glory, corridor of glory, and many more that could be added.18
A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a we-are-different culture vis-a-vis the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually lukewarm or compromising.
This becomes especially disconcerting when most inside a Christian movement begin to “talk alike” and parrot the same terms and phrases in their prayers and songs. This emerging reality at IHOP can be demonstrated by listening to the rapid prayer times in their “Prayer Room” or to the lyrics of the songs of IHOP’s quality worship musicians and singers.
More than all of IHOP’s inside terms, however, it is the word “forerunner” that is nearly ubiquitous. Among IHOP’s ministries, there is the Forerunner Christian Fellowship, Forerunner Music Academy, Forerunner School of Ministry, Forerunner Media School, Forerunner Evangelism, and Forerunner Books. It is safe to say that “forerunner” is the brand name of Bickle’s IHOP ministry. The use of the word “forerunner” is no accident. In fact, “forerunner eschatology” provides the greatest insight into the inner ethos and ministry thrust of Bickle and IHOP.
Although Bickle admits that Christians can’t predict the exact “day or hour” of Jesus’ second coming, he firmly claims that we can know the specific “season” of His return and boldly tells his followers that he believes the end of the world will unfold in this generation.
In light of Bickle’s conviction that we are living in the generation of Jesus’ second coming, he preaches that, as God raised up John the Baptist to be a forerunner preparing his generation for Jesus’ first coming, God is now raising up an elite end-time forerunner movement within the church. This movement will prepare this generation for the soon-coming Great Tribulation and Jesus’ return.
Bickle believes God has anointed him to call forth and train these end-time Christian forerunners. He is praying for thousands of last-days “forerunner Christians” to be raised up within this generation as special prophetic voices that will emerge in the spirit and power of Elijah and defeat the Antichrist’s soon-coming one-world government and religion by praying the “battle plan” of the Book of Revelation.
The End-Time Forerunner Church
Bickle teaches that Jesus’ second coming can be delayed or sped up according to the degree of the church’s spiritual maturity and readiness. He declares that most Christians are waiting passively for Jesus to return, when in actuality, Jesus is waiting for the church to prepare itself as the pure Bride of Christ and to ready itself to launch the last-day divine war to drive evil from the earth and cleanse it so that it can be filled with God’s love and glory.
Bickle does not simply preach that the church will go through the Great Tribulation sealed by God’s sovereign power, but that the end-time church will actually cause God’s judgments to be released on the earth through prophetic prayer. In other words, the end-time praying church will not simply be helpless martyrs during the Great Tribulation; it will victoriously establish justice on the earth by releasing the devastating Great Tribulation judgments on the Antichrist’s global evil empire.
At the end of December 2008, Bickle ratcheted up his end-time enthusiasm by passionately announcing that IHOP’s OneThing Conference would mark a major defining moment within the IHOP prayer movement, and would primarily center around his interpretation and implementation of the Book of Revelation.
Bickle declared that it was time for the prayer movement to realize that it will be the primary agent to transition human history to the age to come through “prayers of faith that not only heal, but also kill,” releasing the heavenly arsenals through intercession that will strike the Antichrist’s political, military, and economic power bases across the earth. The end times will reveal a “killing Jesus” who is covered with blood as He marches through Jordan to free Jerusalem while engaging the Antichrist’s army in physical combat.
Based on Bickle’s end-time teaching, Jesus’ second coming has preconditions. He teaches that Jesus will not return until the global church is crying out “Come, Lord Jesus” with a full understanding of her identity as the Bride of Christ. Jesus will only return when the church is functioning in the unity of the Spirit and is anointed in prayer to release the destructive end-time tribulation judgments.
Bickle envisions that the end-time forerunner church will be an advanced “apostolic” movement. They will experience “greater things” than the apostles themselves. They will function as the last day Moses who through prayer releases God’s plagues on the Antichrist, the end-time Pharaoh. Bickle emphasizes that during the end times, Moses’ miracles and the miracles of the Book of Acts will be combined and multiplied on a global level as the praying church looses God’s judgments on the earth. This is why Bickle calls the Book of Revelation the “End-Times Book of Acts,” meaning that the Book of Revelation reveals the acts of the Holy Spirit that will be demonstrated through the end-time praying church.
Bickle goes even further to add another eschatological interpretive twist to Matthew 16:18–19: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” He claims that Jesus’ statement refers to the end-time church’s possession of the keys of the kingdom through prayer that will drive hell off the planet during the Great Tribulation. The church will exercise binding and loosing end-time authority over God’s judgments assuring that the gates of hell—the Antichrist’s evil empire—will not prevail.31
Forerunner “Wilderness Lifestyle”
Bickle engages in another eschatological twist of the Bible when he exhorts Christians to follow the representative example of John the Baptist and dedicate themselves to live a sacrificial “wilderness lifestyle” of fasting and prayer so that they can emerge one day as “forerunner voices” prior to Jesus’ second coming. Bickle claims that “on May 7, 1997, the Lord spoke to me about believing Him to raise up 10,000 forerunners who live in the spirit of John the Baptist as friends of the Bridegroom (Jn 3:29).”…
…The End-Time Prayer Movement
There is nothing more central to Bickle’s eschatology than his teaching concerning the end-time prayer and prophetic movement. Building on the 24/7 prayer example of the historic Moravians and the contemporary South Korean practice of fervent prayer and consecrated prayer mountains, IHOP is spreading a passion for intercessory prayer and worship throughout the church…
Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.
Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.
There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille. What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers. I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters here have to say.
How any of what's described below is a result of Bickle's doctrine can be researched online. Why any of it is of importance to the readers of GSC - maybe it will help a current or ex-twi follower see what cult-like organizations have in common so they can remove their own rose-colored glasses about twi. Anyway, here are some of the ways IHOP's harm have been described...
1. Page 1 of this thread, especially JavaJane's post.
3. Facebook page: RFI (Recovering from IHOP) - is a private group with 147 members where you can request to be a member. It's purpose is: "A safe place for former members of the International House of Prayer to recover, process, vent, and realize they aren't alone in having been manipulated, lied to, used, and traumatized by the place they once thought to be safe. We welcome people from all walks of life, religious beliefs, and political stances."
"In 2007, Deaton's religious life took a major turn. He decided to focus on mission work, and he went to Kansas City to attend a national convention put on by a church called the International House of Prayer -- known by the acronym IHOP."
"Chief among these is prior to Micah's confession, only a few days after Bethany's memorial service, leaders of the International House of Prayer, including Shelley Hundley, Allen and Rachel Hood, and a group known as "Prisoners of Hope" conducted an "exorcism" (they prefer to use the term "deliverance"). Tyler's former community members were gathered together, informed they had demons, were interrogated about their sexuality, and subsequently subjected to hours of exorcism that multiple witnesses attest consisted of yelling, screaming, shouting in "tongues" (an unintelligble prayer language), and people shaking and falling on the floor."
"In the ensuing months, IHOP-KC was less than transparent with the case, as a court motion was required to obtain evidence that showed Micah Moore in IHOP-KC's prayer room on their own webstream video no less than 12 times the afternoon of Bethany's death, and that he had signed into class at IHOPU that morning."
There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille. What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers. I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters on GSC have to say.
There's no new thing under the sun, at least in terms of group conduct and norms. If the pancake house (sorry, prayer hop) is authoritarian and has no safe guards, there will be sexual abuse somewhere in the mix. Of course, IHOP will dismissively refuse to validate any related concerns. It took decades before Wierwille's debauchery became widely known.
There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille. What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers. I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters on GSC have to say.
How any of what's described below is a result of Bickle's doctrine can be researched online. Why any of it is of importance to the readers of GSC - maybe it will help a current or ex-twi follower see what cult-like organizations have in common so they can remove their own rose-colored glasses about twi. Anyway, here are some of the ways IHOP's harm has been described...
Yikes!
well… …my comments were in reference just to the linked article you mentioned, and that was mostly about doctrine / theory and NOT practice…shows you what I know.
There's no new thing under the sun, at least in terms of group conduct and norms. If the pancake house (sorry, prayer hop) is authoritarian and has no safe guards, there will be sexual abuse somewhere in the mix. Of course, IHOP will dismissively refuse to validate any related concerns. It took decades before Wierwille's debauchery became widely known.
What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get us to where we are with GSC? Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?
well… …my comments were in reference just to the linked article you mentioned, and that was mostly about doctrine / theory and NOT practice…shows you what I know.
There's no fault on your part T-Bone. I shared a bit of the doctrine with you because you have studied the subject for quite a while and I was interested in how it compared with what you've learned so far.
Understanding, however, how vp's doctrinal errors (the law of believing, the absent Christ, the great principle, etc.) caused so much spiritual harm to twi followers is a totally different thing altogether. Similarly, if errors in Bickle's doctrine has anything to do with the hurtful crap going on in his ministry, I would really like to know the connection between the two. However, I can't handle spending any more time researching it - I find it just too toxic .
What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get to us to where we are with GSC? Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?
It took, IMO, two things. 1) The Al**ns having an air tight claim and that they were willing to air it publicly (Waydale) and in court. and 2) Memoir written by someone like Kris Skedgel. There were others who sued, but those specific events blew the doors clean off the secrecy.
People gossiped about twi sexual norms long before those two events, but it became very real with documentation.
However, there has been plenty of worldwide publicity on cults and sexual problems with authoritarian organizations other than twi over the last couple of decades.
What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get to us to where we are with GSC? Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?
2 hours ago, Rocky said:
It took, IMO, two things. 1) The Al**ns having an air tight claim and that they were willing to air it publicly (Waydale) and in court. and 2) Memoir written by someone like Kris Skedgel. There were others who sued, but those specific events blew the doors clean off the secrecy.
People gossiped about twi sexual norms long before those two events, but it became very real with documentation.
However, there has been plenty of worldwide publicity on cults and sexual problems with authoritarian organizations other than twi over the last couple of decades.
In my opinion it takes one person at a time – the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.
To me it’s a freaky and somewhat terrifying thing to look with probing eyes at a supposedly beautiful tapestry of truths…when I said to myself damn the torpedoes, let me really think about this or that…let me dust off some red flags I’ve ignored for years…then…then the web of deceit began to unknot.
I don’t think it has to start at the top – although that’s probably where it starts for most people. It was for me. In the aftermath of patriarch paper…crisis management and certain upper leadership vying for power – that was enough to make me start to doubt and question wierwille and LCM...It doesn’t always have to start with the glaring problems of top leadership. We’ve all know folks who took PFAL but didn’t stick around long – maybe they didn’t become so enamored with wierwille or LCM – maybe they just left because they saw through a lot of the bull-$hit and hype of PFAL...well good for them!
It's so complicated – the love-bombing and a sense of belonging drew many of us into a harmful and controlling cult. But the only way out is for the person to look past stuff like that…it’s hard to break ranks ALL BY YOURSELF…you switch sides on the us-versus-themdichotomy…from being on the us-side to the them-side.
it’s probably one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever made in my life…funny isn’t it – you have lots of company on the journey into a cult...but you leave it alone.
~ ~ ~ ~
Understanding cult-involvement and cult-disentanglement are two very fascinating subjects! There’s so much soft-sell tactics that come into play which subtly persuades one to buy into TWI’s ideology…And realistically there’s no one cut-and-dried method for ensnaring folks in a harmful and controlling cult. There are so many variables to consider like one’s personality, social needs…usually new recruits are young and naïve so critical thinking skills are not really developed…and the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion. It’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink. There’s the claims and promise of getting solid answers about life, having a purpose, God, politics, marriage, finances, whatever…
...those with low self-esteem are usually drawn to a cult-environment where they seem to be readily accepted – sadly people with low self-esteem are usually easier to break mentally / emotionally...that was me for sure “Fortunately,” for them the cult is there as just the perfect supportive environment they’ve been looking for – and along those lines a cult member can learn to feel superior to those not in the cult – an us-versus-them mentality develops and a cult follower starts isolating themselves from family and friends not in the cult – and eventually the new social ties within the cult satisfy a basic desire we all have – to belong.
...a TWI-follower's personal boundaries are softened and eventually encroached upon by those who take advantage of their own position of power and authority...malicious and self-centered leaders have a way of getting victims to think that catering to any leader’s needs – whatever they may be. Leaders can always pull the renewed mind card and work on persuading the victim they are spiritually mature enough to handle it.
~ ~ ~ ~
Rocky mentioned the Allens, Waydale and Kristen’s book. I think why those are instrumental in waking people up is because there’s something in them that resonates with folks. Maybe they had similar experiences and knew someone who did but it was all hush-hush or they dismissed it as devilish rumors to hurt the ministry.
~ ~ ~ ~
Again, I just want to make the point it comes down to each person having to make up their own minds if they’ve reached a tipping point – when it seems like all the red flags, bad experiences, logical fallacies and exploitations are unstoppable as they keep rushing to the forefront of your mind. You’ve got to do something to make them stop. To stay put where you are, would be to live a lie. To try and ignore when you sense others are dealing with similar issues isn’t easy – especially if being detached from others is not your thing.
Think about why you choose or refuse something. Many times, it’s probably over customer referrals or customer complaints. That’s resonance – you’re connecting with someone else’s experience.
One of our greatest assets is the freedom to choose our response in any situation.
He says in his book that his focus is on changes of the mind that occur CONSCIOUSLY as a result of forces that can be IDENTIFIED - in the book he notes 7 factors for changing minds . One of those factors is resonance. That’s why Grease Spot Café is important – people connect with others who have had similar bad experiences, questions, doubts.
the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.
Be brave oh probing eyes at a cult’s beautiful tapestry of truths…dust off those forgotten red flags…keep looking…thinking…enquiring and that tapestry will unravel.
In my opinion it takes one person at a time – the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.
It seems you answered a different question than I did.
Sure, for each individual it takes that person to think for his or her self.
Even so, cults are a social phenomenon. The question I answered was about the sociological aspects that caused the unraveling of twi as related to gsc.
Thank you Rocky and T-Bone for your responses. I agree that with twi and IHOP, you had individual people deciding to leave because of their personal experiences. I also agree that when large scale scandals happen as in twi, they can lead to a much greater exodus including those people who were thinking of leaving but weren't yet convinced to do so.
I learn so much from reading about how others navigate this unusual journey through often treacherous waters.
End times is a toughie – and on stuff like that I consider all options on the table until I find definitive proof something is untenable…this year I’ve been checking out some of the late Dr. Heiser’s stuff and currently I’m leaning more towards the idea that “the rapture” is a misunderstanding of certain Scriptures that may be addressing the same concept presented in the book of Revelation…here’s a couple of hyperlinks as food for thought:
Even if "the rapture" doctrine is correct - TWI misused it to encourage people to take no thought about the future - because it could happen any second - with addendum thoughts like since we're going to heaven anyway you can do whatever you want now - one can interpret that anyway you want - but for those who have deadened consciences it could mean they can live like the devil!
I like to think of myself as tech support for and with the sinners and saints…or TSFAWTSAS for short.That’s not to say I know a lot – just that I figured out how a few things work – and so have others – and using the fundamentalist’s dichotomyof sinners and saints, I learn from others no matter their belief system and like to share what I’ve learned…it’s a whole give-and-take thing.
On 4/13/2023 at 3:43 PM, Charity said:
Hi T-Bone,
Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far. (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)
As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)?
On 4/13/2023 at 5:01 PM, T-Bone said:
Hi Charity, to answer your question - yes I have - explanation to follow .
Thanks for the hyperlink – I have copied that to a laptop file for further analysis sometime in the near future – I have several light and heavy reading and studying projects going on right now…However, I did copy and paste some excerpts below – it’s in my standard bold blue fontto indicate it’s copied from the noted source…rather than offering a point-by-point critique I chose to designate dubious sections in bold red font. Grease Spotters can draw their own conclusions from this article.
and when I say check them out – it might take a little work (depending on how much one has bought into wierwille’s teachings like 4 crucified, the Holy Spirit/holy spirit, 6 cocks-a-crowingwhere he would join different passages together that shouldn’t be – or split the same account into separate events – you’ll see what I mean about being “a joiner” or a “splitter” once you listen to Heiser’s prophecy + eschatology: rapture You Tube.).
2.In light of the title of this thread – I’m sure a lot of cult-survivors who read this article will see similarities of IHOP with TWI as far as generating a spiritual elitism attitude, manipulative jargon, and ‘self-assuming greatness’.
~ ~ ~ ~
Excerpts from the Christian Research Institute hyperlink:
…Today, the primary interpretative systems of biblical eschatology are known as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism,9 and within these distinct systems there are varying perspectives. Bickle identifies his end-time teaching as an exclusive brand of premillennialism that he calls “apostolic premillennialism.”
Apostolic Premillennialism
Bickle distinguishes his apostolic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism by rejecting a pretribulation rapture for a conquering church that prays and ministers through Revelation’s Great Tribulation, resulting in the salvation of Israel and the largest mission harvest in history. Otherwise, Bickle’s apostolic premillennialism differs little from dispensational premillennialism and incorporates many of the core interpretative and chronological scenarios popularized by Hal Lindsey. These include, for example, a literalist hermeneutic of the Book of Revelation, separate redemptive plans for Israel and the church, a personal Antichrist leading a revived Roman empire and one-world government, a rebuilt Jerusalem temple and reinstituted sacrificial system, the mark of the beast as a microchip implanted in the hand or forehead, a seven-year Great Tribulation, and the earthly millennial reign of Jesus following His second coming.
Bickle uses the adjective “apostolic” in describing his premillennialism in an effort to emphasize the kind of church he is laboring to build. He believes he is preparing an army of Christians who will triumph during the soon-coming crisis of the Antichrist’s global rule and the Great Tribulation.
He preaches a self-identified apostolic Christianity characterized by intimacy with Jesus as bridegroom, wholehearted fulfillment of the Great Commandment, self-denial holiness, Sermon-on-the-Mount living, Holy Spirit empowerment, justice, fasting, prayer, and worship. Whereas Bickle has taught many of these worthy topics since the 1980s, my primary concern is that in the last couple of years he has begun to reteach them, wrapping them tightly in his exclusive end-time teaching and his distinct interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
Forerunner Eschatology
You don’t have to be around the IHOP movement very long before you are exposed to a large glossary of insider terms and phrases, such as wilderness lifestyle, friend of the Bridegroom, Daniel anointing, eating the scroll, fasted lifestyle, burning and shining lamps, wholehearted lovers, zones of glory, corridor of glory, and many more that could be added.18
A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a we-are-different culture vis-a-vis the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually lukewarm or compromising.
This becomes especially disconcerting when most inside a Christian movement begin to “talk alike” and parrot the same terms and phrases in their prayers and songs. This emerging reality at IHOP can be demonstrated by listening to the rapid prayer times in their “Prayer Room” or to the lyrics of the songs of IHOP’s quality worship musicians and singers.
More than all of IHOP’s inside terms, however, it is the word “forerunner” that is nearly ubiquitous. Among IHOP’s ministries, there is the Forerunner Christian Fellowship, Forerunner Music Academy, Forerunner School of Ministry, Forerunner Media School, Forerunner Evangelism, and Forerunner Books. It is safe to say that “forerunner” is the brand name of Bickle’s IHOP ministry. The use of the word “forerunner” is no accident. In fact, “forerunner eschatology” provides the greatest insight into the inner ethos and ministry thrust of Bickle and IHOP.
Although Bickle admits that Christians can’t predict the exact “day or hour” of Jesus’ second coming, he firmly claims that we can know the specific “season” of His return and boldly tells his followers that he believes the end of the world will unfold in this generation.
In light of Bickle’s conviction that we are living in the generation of Jesus’ second coming, he preaches that, as God raised up John the Baptist to be a forerunner preparing his generation for Jesus’ first coming, God is now raising up an elite end-time forerunner movement within the church. This movement will prepare this generation for the soon-coming Great Tribulation and Jesus’ return.
Bickle believes God has anointed him to call forth and train these end-time Christian forerunners. He is praying for thousands of last-days “forerunner Christians” to be raised up within this generation as special prophetic voices that will emerge in the spirit and power of Elijah and defeat the Antichrist’s soon-coming one-world government and religion by praying the “battle plan” of the Book of Revelation.
The End-Time Forerunner Church
Bickle teaches that Jesus’ second coming can be delayed or sped up according to the degree of the church’s spiritual maturity and readiness. He declares that most Christians are waiting passively for Jesus to return, when in actuality, Jesus is waiting for the church to prepare itself as the pure Bride of Christ and to ready itself to launch the last-day divine war to drive evil from the earth and cleanse it so that it can be filled with God’s love and glory.
Bickle does not simply preach that the church will go through the Great Tribulation sealed by God’s sovereign power, but that the end-time church will actually cause God’s judgments to be released on the earth through prophetic prayer. In other words, the end-time praying church will not simply be helpless martyrs during the Great Tribulation; it will victoriously establish justice on the earth by releasing the devastating Great Tribulation judgments on the Antichrist’s global evil empire.
At the end of December 2008, Bickle ratcheted up his end-time enthusiasm by passionately announcing that IHOP’s OneThing Conference would mark a major defining moment within the IHOP prayer movement, and would primarily center around his interpretation and implementation of the Book of Revelation.
Bickle declared that it was time for the prayer movement to realize that it will be the primary agent to transition human history to the age to come through “prayers of faith that not only heal, but also kill,” releasing the heavenly arsenals through intercession that will strike the Antichrist’s political, military, and economic power bases across the earth. The end times will reveal a “killing Jesus” who is covered with blood as He marches through Jordan to free Jerusalem while engaging the Antichrist’s army in physical combat.
Based on Bickle’s end-time teaching, Jesus’ second coming has preconditions. He teaches that Jesus will not return until the global church is crying out “Come, Lord Jesus” with a full understanding of her identity as the Bride of Christ. Jesus will only return when the church is functioning in the unity of the Spirit and is anointed in prayer to release the destructive end-time tribulation judgments.
Bickle envisions that the end-time forerunner church will be an advanced “apostolic” movement. They will experience “greater things” than the apostles themselves. They will function as the last day Moses who through prayer releases God’s plagues on the Antichrist, the end-time Pharaoh. Bickle emphasizes that during the end times, Moses’ miracles and the miracles of the Book of Acts will be combined and multiplied on a global level as the praying church looses God’s judgments on the earth. This is why Bickle calls the Book of Revelation the “End-Times Book of Acts,” meaning that the Book of Revelation reveals the acts of the Holy Spirit that will be demonstrated through the end-time praying church.
Bickle goes even further to add another eschatological interpretive twist to Matthew 16:18–19: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” He claims that Jesus’ statement refers to the end-time church’s possession of the keys of the kingdom through prayer that will drive hell off the planet during the Great Tribulation. The church will exercise binding and loosing end-time authority over God’s judgments assuring that the gates of hell—the Antichrist’s evil empire—will not prevail.31
Forerunner “Wilderness Lifestyle”
Bickle engages in another eschatological twist of the Bible when he exhorts Christians to follow the representative example of John the Baptist and dedicate themselves to live a sacrificial “wilderness lifestyle” of fasting and prayer so that they can emerge one day as “forerunner voices” prior to Jesus’ second coming. Bickle claims that “on May 7, 1997, the Lord spoke to me about believing Him to raise up 10,000 forerunners who live in the spirit of John the Baptist as friends of the Bridegroom (Jn 3:29).”…
…The End-Time Prayer Movement
There is nothing more central to Bickle’s eschatology than his teaching concerning the end-time prayer and prophetic movement. Building on the 24/7 prayer example of the historic Moravians and the contemporary South Korean practice of fervent prayer and consecrated prayer mountains, IHOP is spreading a passion for intercessory prayer and worship throughout the church…
Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.
I would be remiss if I did not speak to the elephant in the room (rapture vs end times). I’ve already mentioned TWI’s misapplication of the rapture. It tended toward escapism. Avoiding reality and evading a commitment to the here and now.
On the other hand Bickle’s laser-like focus on end times kind of scares me because I get the sense him and his ‘spiritually elite troops’ are full of their own grandiosity.
As I mentioned earlier, currently I’m leaning toward the rapture being a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation events - in other words, I believe rapture doctrine incorrectly splits the return of Christ into separate events.
So I give Bickle credit for focusing on end times. But I fault him on being egotistical about how much of a role the church has in it. From what little I know of book of Revelation, it’s more about God’s sovereignty.
I would be remiss if I did not speak to the elephant in the room (rapture vs end times). I’ve already mentioned TWI’s misapplication of the rapture. It tended toward escapism. Avoiding reality and evading a commitment to the here and now.
On the other hand Bickle’s laser-like focus on end times kind of scares me because I get the sense him and his ‘spiritually elite troops’ are full of their own grandiosity.
As I mentioned earlier, currently I’m leaning toward the rapture being a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation events - in other words, I believe rapture doctrine incorrectly splits the return of Christ into separate events.
So I give Bickle credit for focusing on end times. But I fault him on being egotistical about how much of a role the church has in it. From what little I know of book of Revelation, it’s more about God’s sovereignty.
This is just my opinion - I could be wrong.
Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs.
Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program.
Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs. Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually. For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults.
I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi. And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same. After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks !)
Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and other leaders call for 300radical young adults to join 21 days of prayer and fasting in Kansas City this May. They will be praying during the NightWatch (12–6am), having housing and basic food (i.e. Daniel fast meals) provided. "We’re calling 300 young adults to come and be a part of this historic reality that's happening globally," Mike says.
Why: To stand in the gap for Israel and God’s purposes during the 21-day global fast, May 7–28, and on the global day of prayer May 28 for Israel
In a letter Mike Bickle sent to the Church, he writes:
The Isaiah 62 Global Solemn Assembly 21-Day Fast (May 7-28, 2023)
A collaboration of many ministries across the nations, including Lou Engle, Jason Hubbard, and Mike Bickle, is calling 100,000 intercessors to participate in a global solemn assembly (May 7-28) to fast and pray for the Lord’s purposes for Israel and to contend for the Lord to raise up 100 million intercessors for Israel according to His promise in Isaiah 62:6-7 sovereignly to “set,” “appoint,” or “mark” intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns.
6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed [set, KJV] watchmen; all day and all night
they will never keep silent. You [intercessors] who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves;
7 And give Him no rest until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth [in connection to Jesus’ return]. (Isa. 62:6-7, NAS)
Israel’s national repentance (Act 3:19) and confession that Jesus is Messiah (Mt. 23:39) is deeply connected to Jesus’ second coming and to life from the dead for the whole earth (Rom. 11:15). In this fast we are exalting the supremacy of Jesus, focusing on the connection of God’s blessing on Jerusalem to fulfilling the Great Commission. We can do so much more together in the “spirit of John 17:21-23” unity.
Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs.
Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program.
Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs. Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually. For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults.
I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi. And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same. After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks !)
As I mentioned earlier, currently I’m leaning toward the rapture being a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation events - in other words, I believe rapture doctrine incorrectly splits the return of Christ into separate events.
I disagree. There is no rapture, or rapturo in latin as rapture is transliterated from. It is misapplied from many angles and escapism is just on angle. But scripture plainly says that we will meet the Lord in the air at the last trump. Theology confuses the events to no end, and it is a mystery within God's great mystery. Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. Anywho...lemme get outta here befor I derail this thread..
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
And Im beginning to belive that this is the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15.
Revelation 10:7
But in the dayes of the voyce of the seuenth Angel,when he shall beginne to blow the trumpet, euen the mysterie of God shalbe finished, as he hath declared to his seruants the Prophets.
I disagree. There is no rapture, or rapturo in latin as rapture is transliterated from. It is misapplied from many angles and escapism is just on angle. But scripture plainly says that we will meet the Lord in the air at the last trump. Theology confuses the events to no end, and it is a mystery within God's great mystery. Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. Anywho...lemme get outta here befor I derail this thread..
Thanks for that textusreceptusbibles hyperlink – really cool!
Yeah, I hear you on theology confusing stuff – and I’m not 100 percent sold on either yet – how’s that for waffling.
If you haven’t checked out those two Heiser links I posted earlier, I recommend you give them a chance. It got me to rethink how I understood familiar passages like 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV . Some of the descriptions have striking similarities to OT stuff like Isaiah 14 NIV , Ezekiel 28 NIV and Daniel 12 NIV , and the book of Revelation.
Simple obvious statements like meet the Lord in the air or prince of the power of the air, we tend to take literally to the exclusion of referencing the spiritual realm.- just another aspect of the same event...just my opinion...
this is all tentative in my mind right now...and granted some of the pieces of the interpretive puzzle could fit either way (split events or same event). I see no issue with practical consequences either way unless one goes overboard like Charity and I mentioning the extremes of TWI and Bickle.
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chockfull
Ah yes the Mystery! This is that concept where Jews and Gentiles are together with one Lord and Savior and together in one body of Christ. Except - 1. Did they take “the class” yet? If no
little_rock
I learned years later all that the Wow ambassadors' sicky-sweetness was fake. Some analyst call it "love bombing". They would shower you with love and think you are just the most interesting person th
Twinky
That sounds so TWI-ish. The "standing in the gap" dange and "participate and be special." Ugh. Good if Christians can come together to pray for common cause. Bad if Christians get elitist abou
excathedra
barks like a cult -- that made me laugh
oh my goodness did i post on here before ?
years ago ? lol
i think i keep coming full circle since i have no memory
it's like that joke about people with alzheimers they get to meet new friends each day
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Grace Valerie Claire
Groucho, with a small glass of OJ.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bliss, there is an IHOP here in DC, so I Goggled them. Another Cult, no thanks!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
It's another cult.
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Charity
After spending over a week reading about Mike Bickle’s doctrines and his International House of Prayer (IHOP), as well as looking at websites which describe IHOP as a cult, my fellowship with Christ and any fruit of the spirit in my life I had took a nosedive. It was only when I realized I needed a break from “all things Bickle” and began reading Philippians that my heart almost instantly became lighter and the vice on my brain loosened.
It now makes me wonder though what happens to Christians, especially young ones, when they are fed a steady diet of only one particular food group at the expense of the others. This is what I believe Mike Bickle and his International House of Prayer is doing.
His particular food group or focus of scripture is on the end times where he emphasizes the church as being the beloved bride of Christ calling for her bridegroom (based on the Song of Solomon and Revelation 22:17), the role prayer and songs of worship (as in his 24/7 prayer house) play in bringing about the return of Christ; and his plan to build an insatiable hunger in young people to participate in these two aspects of his ministry.
This hunger is an extremely emotional one, is deepened by the isolation of his intern program for 18-25 year olds and is heavily fed with prophetic words given by every Tom, Dick and Harry who graduate from his “School of Messengers.” (SOM is for believers who sense a call to be prophetic messengers as voices and light to others.)
The point is - it’s not just the errors in his end-time teachings (which for me at this time is mostly based on what others say who have studied his work) but it’s the fact that they overshadow our walk with Christ. It's very similar to how the "upmost" importance of vp's doctrine, drive, push, vision for every twi believer to move
Edited by Charitythe wordPFAL over the world encompassed our lives and diminished our relationship with Christ.Link to comment
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Charity
Sorry, I posted the above twice.
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T-Bone
Great post, Charity !!!!
I learn so much from reading about how others navigate this unusual journey through often treacherous waters.
End times is a toughie – and on stuff like that I consider all options on the table until I find definitive proof something is untenable…this year I’ve been checking out some of the late Dr. Heiser’s stuff and currently I’m leaning more towards the idea that “the rapture” is a misunderstanding of certain Scriptures that may be addressing the same concept presented in the book of Revelation…here’s a couple of hyperlinks as food for thought:
Eschatology Series by Dr. Michael Heiser
Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Dr. Michael Heiser
Even if "the rapture" doctrine is correct - TWI misused it to encourage people to take no thought about the future - because it could happen any second - with addendum thoughts like since we're going to heaven anyway you can do whatever you want now - one can interpret that anyway you want - but for those who have deadened consciences it could mean they can live like the devil!
I like to think of myself as tech support for and with the sinners and saints…or TSFAWTSAS for short.
That’s not to say I know a lot – just that I figured out how a few things work – and so have others – and using the fundamentalist’s dichotomy of sinners and saints, I learn from others no matter their belief system and like to share what I’ve learned…it’s a whole give-and-take thing.
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Charity
Hi T-Bone,
Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far. (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)
https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/
As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)?
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T-Bone
Hi Charity, to answer your question - yes I have
- explanation to follow .
Thanks for the hyperlink – I have copied that to a laptop file for further analysis sometime in the near future – I have several light and heavy reading and studying projects going on right now…However, I did copy and paste some excerpts below – it’s in my standard bold blue font to indicate it’s copied from the noted source…rather than offering a point-by-point critique I chose to designate dubious sections in bold red font. Grease Spotters can draw their own conclusions from this article.
I will leave you all with two thoughts:
1. Check out the 2 links I gave in previous post:
eschatology discussion by Dr. Heiser
prophecy and eschatology: the rapture by Dr. Heiser
and when I say check them out – it might take a little work (depending on how much one has bought into wierwille’s teachings like 4 crucified, the Holy Spirit/holy spirit, 6 cocks-a-crowing where he would join different passages together that shouldn’t be – or split the same account into separate events – you’ll see what I mean about being “a joiner” or a “splitter” once you listen to Heiser’s prophecy + eschatology: rapture You Tube.).
2. In light of the title of this thread – I’m sure a lot of cult-survivors who read this article will see similarities of IHOP with TWI as far as generating a spiritual elitism attitude, manipulative jargon, and ‘self-assuming greatness’.
~ ~ ~ ~
Excerpts from the Christian Research Institute hyperlink:
…Today, the primary interpretative systems of biblical eschatology are known as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism,9 and within these distinct systems there are varying perspectives. Bickle identifies his end-time teaching as an exclusive brand of premillennialism that he calls “apostolic premillennialism.”
Apostolic Premillennialism
Bickle distinguishes his apostolic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism by rejecting a pretribulation rapture for a conquering church that prays and ministers through Revelation’s Great Tribulation, resulting in the salvation of Israel and the largest mission harvest in history. Otherwise, Bickle’s apostolic premillennialism differs little from dispensational premillennialism and incorporates many of the core interpretative and chronological scenarios popularized by Hal Lindsey. These include, for example, a literalist hermeneutic of the Book of Revelation, separate redemptive plans for Israel and the church, a personal Antichrist leading a revived Roman empire and one-world government, a rebuilt Jerusalem temple and reinstituted sacrificial system, the mark of the beast as a microchip implanted in the hand or forehead, a seven-year Great Tribulation, and the earthly millennial reign of Jesus following His second coming.
Bickle uses the adjective “apostolic” in describing his premillennialism in an effort to emphasize the kind of church he is laboring to build. He believes he is preparing an army of Christians who will triumph during the soon-coming crisis of the Antichrist’s global rule and the Great Tribulation.
He preaches a self-identified apostolic Christianity characterized by intimacy with Jesus as bridegroom, wholehearted fulfillment of the Great Commandment, self-denial holiness, Sermon-on-the-Mount living, Holy Spirit empowerment, justice, fasting, prayer, and worship. Whereas Bickle has taught many of these worthy topics since the 1980s, my primary concern is that in the last couple of years he has begun to reteach them, wrapping them tightly in his exclusive end-time teaching and his distinct interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
Forerunner Eschatology
You don’t have to be around the IHOP movement very long before you are exposed to a large glossary of insider terms and phrases, such as wilderness lifestyle, friend of the Bridegroom, Daniel anointing, eating the scroll, fasted lifestyle, burning and shining lamps, wholehearted lovers, zones of glory, corridor of glory, and many more that could be added.18
A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a we-are-different culture vis-a-vis the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually lukewarm or compromising.
This becomes especially disconcerting when most inside a Christian movement begin to “talk alike” and parrot the same terms and phrases in their prayers and songs. This emerging reality at IHOP can be demonstrated by listening to the rapid prayer times in their “Prayer Room” or to the lyrics of the songs of IHOP’s quality worship musicians and singers.
More than all of IHOP’s inside terms, however, it is the word “forerunner” that is nearly ubiquitous. Among IHOP’s ministries, there is the Forerunner Christian Fellowship, Forerunner Music Academy, Forerunner School of Ministry, Forerunner Media School, Forerunner Evangelism, and Forerunner Books. It is safe to say that “forerunner” is the brand name of Bickle’s IHOP ministry. The use of the word “forerunner” is no accident. In fact, “forerunner eschatology” provides the greatest insight into the inner ethos and ministry thrust of Bickle and IHOP.
Although Bickle admits that Christians can’t predict the exact “day or hour” of Jesus’ second coming, he firmly claims that we can know the specific “season” of His return and boldly tells his followers that he believes the end of the world will unfold in this generation.
In light of Bickle’s conviction that we are living in the generation of Jesus’ second coming, he preaches that, as God raised up John the Baptist to be a forerunner preparing his generation for Jesus’ first coming, God is now raising up an elite end-time forerunner movement within the church. This movement will prepare this generation for the soon-coming Great Tribulation and Jesus’ return.
Bickle believes God has anointed him to call forth and train these end-time Christian forerunners. He is praying for thousands of last-days “forerunner Christians” to be raised up within this generation as special prophetic voices that will emerge in the spirit and power of Elijah and defeat the Antichrist’s soon-coming one-world government and religion by praying the “battle plan” of the Book of Revelation.
The End-Time Forerunner Church
Bickle teaches that Jesus’ second coming can be delayed or sped up according to the degree of the church’s spiritual maturity and readiness. He declares that most Christians are waiting passively for Jesus to return, when in actuality, Jesus is waiting for the church to prepare itself as the pure Bride of Christ and to ready itself to launch the last-day divine war to drive evil from the earth and cleanse it so that it can be filled with God’s love and glory.
Bickle does not simply preach that the church will go through the Great Tribulation sealed by God’s sovereign power, but that the end-time church will actually cause God’s judgments to be released on the earth through prophetic prayer. In other words, the end-time praying church will not simply be helpless martyrs during the Great Tribulation; it will victoriously establish justice on the earth by releasing the devastating Great Tribulation judgments on the Antichrist’s global evil empire.
At the end of December 2008, Bickle ratcheted up his end-time enthusiasm by passionately announcing that IHOP’s OneThing Conference would mark a major defining moment within the IHOP prayer movement, and would primarily center around his interpretation and implementation of the Book of Revelation.
Bickle declared that it was time for the prayer movement to realize that it will be the primary agent to transition human history to the age to come through “prayers of faith that not only heal, but also kill,” releasing the heavenly arsenals through intercession that will strike the Antichrist’s political, military, and economic power bases across the earth. The end times will reveal a “killing Jesus” who is covered with blood as He marches through Jordan to free Jerusalem while engaging the Antichrist’s army in physical combat.
Based on Bickle’s end-time teaching, Jesus’ second coming has preconditions. He teaches that Jesus will not return until the global church is crying out “Come, Lord Jesus” with a full understanding of her identity as the Bride of Christ. Jesus will only return when the church is functioning in the unity of the Spirit and is anointed in prayer to release the destructive end-time tribulation judgments.
Bickle envisions that the end-time forerunner church will be an advanced “apostolic” movement. They will experience “greater things” than the apostles themselves. They will function as the last day Moses who through prayer releases God’s plagues on the Antichrist, the end-time Pharaoh. Bickle emphasizes that during the end times, Moses’ miracles and the miracles of the Book of Acts will be combined and multiplied on a global level as the praying church looses God’s judgments on the earth. This is why Bickle calls the Book of Revelation the “End-Times Book of Acts,” meaning that the Book of Revelation reveals the acts of the Holy Spirit that will be demonstrated through the end-time praying church.
Bickle goes even further to add another eschatological interpretive twist to Matthew 16:18–19: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” He claims that Jesus’ statement refers to the end-time church’s possession of the keys of the kingdom through prayer that will drive hell off the planet during the Great Tribulation. The church will exercise binding and loosing end-time authority over God’s judgments assuring that the gates of hell—the Antichrist’s evil empire—will not prevail.31
Forerunner “Wilderness Lifestyle”
Bickle engages in another eschatological twist of the Bible when he exhorts Christians to follow the representative example of John the Baptist and dedicate themselves to live a sacrificial “wilderness lifestyle” of fasting and prayer so that they can emerge one day as “forerunner voices” prior to Jesus’ second coming. Bickle claims that “on May 7, 1997, the Lord spoke to me about believing Him to raise up 10,000 forerunners who live in the spirit of John the Baptist as friends of the Bridegroom (Jn 3:29).”…
…The End-Time Prayer Movement
There is nothing more central to Bickle’s eschatology than his teaching concerning the end-time prayer and prophetic movement. Building on the 24/7 prayer example of the historic Moravians and the contemporary South Korean practice of fervent prayer and consecrated prayer mountains, IHOP is spreading a passion for intercessory prayer and worship throughout the church…
End of excerpts from Forerunner Eschatology: Mike Bickle's End-Time Teaching and the International House of Prayer - Christian Research Institute (equip.org) (https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/)
~ ~ ~ ~
Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.
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Charity
There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille. What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers. I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters here have to say.
How any of what's described below is a result of Bickle's doctrine can be researched online. Why any of it is of importance to the readers of GSC - maybe it will help a current or ex-twi follower see what cult-like organizations have in common so they can remove their own rose-colored glasses about twi. Anyway, here are some of the ways IHOP's harm have been described...
1. Page 1 of this thread, especially JavaJane's post.
2. https://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/some-of-my-ihop-red-flags/
3. Facebook page: RFI (Recovering from IHOP) - is a private group with 147 members where you can request to be a member. It's purpose is: "A safe place for former members of the International House of Prayer to recover, process, vent, and realize they aren't alone in having been manipulated, lied to, used, and traumatized by the place they once thought to be safe. We welcome people from all walks of life, religious beliefs, and political stances."
4. http://www.828ministries.com/Diary/The-Over-Sexualization-of-by-Anthony-Wade-Christianity_God-140604-236.html
5. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-mysterious-death-of-bethany-deaton/
"In 2007, Deaton's religious life took a major turn. He decided to focus on mission work, and he went to Kansas City to attend a national convention put on by a church called the International House of Prayer -- known by the acronym IHOP."
6. https://www.change.org/p/international-house-of-prayer-of-kansas-city-tell-the-truth-about-bethany-deaton-and-micah-moore
"Chief among these is prior to Micah's confession, only a few days after Bethany's memorial service, leaders of the International House of Prayer, including Shelley Hundley, Allen and Rachel Hood, and a group known as "Prisoners of Hope" conducted an "exorcism" (they prefer to use the term "deliverance"). Tyler's former community members were gathered together, informed they had demons, were interrogated about their sexuality, and subsequently subjected to hours of exorcism that multiple witnesses attest consisted of yelling, screaming, shouting in "tongues" (an unintelligble prayer language), and people shaking and falling on the floor."
"In the ensuing months, IHOP-KC was less than transparent with the case, as a court motion was required to obtain evidence that showed Micah Moore in IHOP-KC's prayer room on their own webstream video no less than 12 times the afternoon of Bethany's death, and that he had signed into class at IHOPU that morning."
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Rocky
There's no new thing under the sun, at least in terms of group conduct and norms. If the pancake house (sorry, prayer hop) is authoritarian and has no safe guards, there will be sexual abuse somewhere in the mix. Of course, IHOP will dismissively refuse to validate any related concerns. It took decades before Wierwille's debauchery became widely known.
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T-Bone
Yikes!
well… …my comments were in reference just to the linked article you mentioned, and that was mostly about doctrine / theory and NOT practice…shows you what I know.
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Charity
What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get us to where we are with GSC? Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?
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Charity
There's no fault on your part T-Bone. I shared a bit of the doctrine with you because you have studied the subject for quite a while and I was interested in how it compared with what you've learned so far.
Understanding, however, how vp's doctrinal errors (the law of believing, the absent Christ, the great principle, etc.) caused so much spiritual harm to twi followers is a totally different thing altogether. Similarly, if errors in Bickle's doctrine has anything to do with the hurtful crap going on in his ministry, I would really like to know the connection between the two. However, I can't handle spending any more time researching it - I find it just too toxic
.
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Rocky
It took, IMO, two things. 1) The Al**ns having an air tight claim and that they were willing to air it publicly (Waydale) and in court. and 2) Memoir written by someone like Kris Skedgel. There were others who sued, but those specific events blew the doors clean off the secrecy.
People gossiped about twi sexual norms long before those two events, but it became very real with documentation.
However, there has been plenty of worldwide publicity on cults and sexual problems with authoritarian organizations other than twi over the last couple of decades.
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T-Bone
In my opinion it takes one person at a time – the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.
To me it’s a freaky and somewhat terrifying thing to look with probing eyes at a supposedly beautiful tapestry of truths…when I said to myself damn the torpedoes, let me really think about this or that…let me dust off some red flags I’ve ignored for years…then…then the web of deceit began to unknot.
I don’t think it has to start at the top – although that’s probably where it starts for most people. It was for me. In the aftermath of patriarch paper…crisis management and certain upper leadership vying for power – that was enough to make me start to doubt and question wierwille and LCM...It doesn’t always have to start with the glaring problems of top leadership. We’ve all know folks who took PFAL but didn’t stick around long – maybe they didn’t become so enamored with wierwille or LCM – maybe they just left because they saw through a lot of the bull-$hit and hype of PFAL...well good for them!
It's so complicated – the love-bombing and a sense of belonging drew many of us into a harmful and controlling cult. But the only way out is for the person to look past stuff like that…it’s hard to break ranks ALL BY YOURSELF…you switch sides on the us-versus-them dichotomy…from being on the us-side to the them-side.
it’s probably one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever made in my life…funny isn’t it – you have lots of company on the journey into a cult...but you leave it alone.
~ ~ ~ ~
Understanding cult-involvement and cult-disentanglement are two very fascinating subjects! There’s so much soft-sell tactics that come into play which subtly persuades one to buy into TWI’s ideology…And realistically there’s no one cut-and-dried method for ensnaring folks in a harmful and controlling cult. There are so many variables to consider like one’s personality, social needs…usually new recruits are young and naïve so critical thinking skills are not really developed…and the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion. It’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink. There’s the claims and promise of getting solid answers about life, having a purpose, God, politics, marriage, finances, whatever…
...those with low self-esteem are usually drawn to a cult-environment where they seem to be readily accepted – sadly people with low self-esteem are usually easier to break mentally / emotionally...that was me for sure
...a TWI-follower's personal boundaries are softened and eventually encroached upon by those who take advantage of their own position of power and authority...malicious and self-centered leaders have a way of getting victims to think that catering to any leader’s needs – whatever they may be. Leaders can always pull the renewed mind card and work on persuading the victim they are spiritually mature enough to handle it.
~ ~ ~ ~
Rocky mentioned the Allens, Waydale and Kristen’s book. I think why those are instrumental in waking people up is because there’s something in them that resonates with folks. Maybe they had similar experiences and knew someone who did but it was all hush-hush or they dismissed it as devilish rumors to hurt the ministry.
~ ~ ~ ~
Again, I just want to make the point it comes down to each person having to make up their own minds if they’ve reached a tipping point – when it seems like all the red flags, bad experiences, logical fallacies and exploitations are unstoppable as they keep rushing to the forefront of your mind. You’ve got to do something to make them stop. To stay put where you are, would be to live a lie. To try and ignore when you sense others are dealing with similar issues isn’t easy – especially if being detached from others is not your thing.
Think about why you choose or refuse something. Many times, it’s probably over customer referrals or customer complaints. That’s resonance – you’re connecting with someone else’s experience.
One of our greatest assets is the freedom to choose our response in any situation.
Around 2005 I read a great book which I still review once and awhile - Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds by Howard Gardner . He said: The phenomenon of changing minds is one of the least examined and – I would claim – least understood of familiar human experiences.
He says in his book that his focus is on changes of the mind that occur CONSCIOUSLY as a result of forces that can be IDENTIFIED - in the book he notes 7 factors for changing minds . One of those factors is resonance. That’s why Grease Spot Café is important – people connect with others who have had similar bad experiences, questions, doubts.
the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves.
Be brave oh probing eyes
at a cult’s beautiful tapestry of truths…dust off those forgotten red flags…keep looking…thinking…enquiring and that tapestry will unravel.
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Rocky
It seems you answered a different question than I did.
Sure, for each individual it takes that person to think for his or her self.
Even so, cults are a social phenomenon. The question I answered was about the sociological aspects that caused the unraveling of twi as related to gsc.
I don't believe either answer is incorrect.
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Charity
Thank you Rocky and T-Bone for your responses. I agree that with twi and IHOP, you had individual people deciding to leave because of their personal experiences. I also agree that when large scale scandals happen as in twi, they can lead to a much greater exodus including those people who were thinking of leaving but weren't yet convinced to do so.
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T-Bone
I would be remiss if I did not speak to the elephant in the room (rapture vs end times). I’ve already mentioned TWI’s misapplication of the rapture. It tended toward escapism. Avoiding reality and evading a commitment to the here and now.
On the other hand Bickle’s laser-like focus on end times kind of scares me because I get the sense him and his ‘spiritually elite troops’ are full of their own grandiosity.
As I mentioned earlier, currently I’m leaning toward the rapture being a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation events - in other words, I believe rapture doctrine incorrectly splits the return of Christ into separate events.
So I give Bickle credit for focusing on end times. But I fault him on being egotistical about how much of a role the church has in it. From what little I know of book of Revelation, it’s more about God’s sovereignty.
This is just my opinion - I could be wrong.
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Charity
Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs.
Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program.
Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs. Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually. For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults.
I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi. And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same. After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks
!)
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Charity
I hate to keep the focus on Bickle and IHOP but I just accidentally came across the newest Bickle event on this website:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsxmE21JwEs
Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and other leaders call for 300 radical young adults to join 21 days of prayer and fasting in Kansas City this May. They will be praying during the NightWatch (12–6am), having housing and basic food (i.e. Daniel fast meals) provided. "We’re calling 300 young adults to come and be a part of this historic reality that's happening globally," Mike says.
Why: To stand in the gap for Israel and God’s purposes during the 21-day global fast, May 7–28, and on the global day of prayer May 28 for Israel
In a letter Mike Bickle sent to the Church, he writes:
The Isaiah 62 Global Solemn Assembly 21-Day Fast (May 7-28, 2023)
A collaboration of many ministries across the nations, including Lou Engle, Jason Hubbard, and Mike Bickle, is calling 100,000 intercessors to participate in a global solemn assembly (May 7-28) to fast and pray for the Lord’s purposes for Israel and to contend for the Lord to raise up 100 million intercessors for Israel according to His promise in Isaiah 62:6-7 sovereignly to “set,” “appoint,” or “mark” intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns.
6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed [set, KJV] watchmen; all day and all night
they will never keep silent. You [intercessors] who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves;
7 And give Him no rest until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth [in connection to Jesus’ return]. (Isa. 62:6-7, NAS)
Israel’s national repentance (Act 3:19) and confession that Jesus is Messiah (Mt. 23:39) is deeply connected to Jesus’ second coming and to life from the dead for the whole earth (Rom. 11:15). In this fast we are exalting the supremacy of Jesus, focusing on the connection of God’s blessing on Jerusalem to fulfilling the Great Commission. We can do so much more together in the “spirit of John 17:21-23” unity.
https://www.ihopkc.org/mikebickleisaiah62letter/
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T-Bone
wow!
I love how you succinctly described the issues.
"Once a teacher always a teacher"
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OldSkool
I disagree. There is no rapture, or rapturo in latin as rapture is transliterated from. It is misapplied from many angles and escapism is just on angle. But scripture plainly says that we will meet the Lord in the air at the last trump. Theology confuses the events to no end, and it is a mystery within God's great mystery. Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. Anywho...lemme get outta here befor I derail this thread..
https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/53002001/MAT/GNV/KJV1611
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
And Im beginning to belive that this is the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15.
Revelation 10:7
But in the dayes of the voyce of the seuenth Angel, when he shall beginne to blow the trumpet, euen the mysterie of God shalbe finished, as he hath declared to his seruants the Prophets.
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T-Bone
Thanks for that textusreceptusbibles hyperlink – really cool!
Yeah, I hear you on theology confusing stuff – and I’m not 100 percent sold on either yet – how’s that for waffling.
If you haven’t checked out those two Heiser links I posted earlier, I recommend you give them a chance. It got me to rethink how I understood familiar passages like 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV . Some of the descriptions have striking similarities to OT stuff like Isaiah 14 NIV , Ezekiel 28 NIV and Daniel 12 NIV , and the book of Revelation.
Simple obvious statements like meet the Lord in the air or prince of the power of the air , we tend to take literally to the exclusion of referencing the spiritual realm.- just another aspect of the same event...just my opinion...
this is all tentative in my mind right now...and granted some of the pieces of the interpretive puzzle could fit either way (split events or same event). I see no issue with practical consequences either way unless one goes overboard like Charity and I mentioning the extremes of TWI and Bickle.
Edited by T-Boneforgot something
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