It's just so.... arrogant. As if they could take credit somehow if you are doing well, or if you aren't doing well, then they are very spiritual for seeing that you needed their believing.
To me it is just like saying "bless you" all the time (the perfect Way saying for every situation! Not sure what to say? Say "bless you!"). This is probably just my personal pet peeve, but I always thought that "bless you" was a little arrogant - as if they had the power to bless me. I thought that was something God did, not twi. I understand using the phrase during a worship service, where the person teaching or leading the group is symbolically speaking a message to the people from God (such as a priest or pastor.) But in twi it was overused and abused.
One day at an event I was walking to where we were having our meal. I ran into someone and asked them, "How are you?" He responded automatically, "bless you...." I don't even think he heard what I had said. But, hey... bless you covers everything, right?
Now, if I sneeze, I do expect someone to say it. (a la Loki in Dogma.)
I made myself quit saying "bless you " several years before I left. It really got on my nerves. Perhaps someone knows where that came from?
The over use of "believing" is something I noted years ago when I was still a wayfer. Some years back the transmission on my car went out and I had it towed to a mechanic. Another innie gave me a ride to the mechanic and I was ranting a bit. I remember him looking at me and saying in a rather well meaning manner "well, let's just believe that it's alright." I remember thinking - "Alright?...believe?....it's already damaged and all the believing in the world is not going to change that."
Ok, so my point? I think the law of believing garbage cripples people's ability to cope. To me, when dealing with crisis, or other lesser problems, one of the first things I need is an accurate assessment. That means I have to acknowledge whats wrong whether it's positive or not. But if I truly believe that confession of belief yields receipt of confession then I must always be extra careful to not acknowledge the negatives lest I bring those instead or somehow validate those negatives giving them an existence. In retrospect the law of believing was one of the more damaging aspects of the way international.
The law of believing fosters a very strong sense of denial in a person. In my opinion, that alter reality that is slowly built into a person's views is very unhealthy.
I agree, OldSkool. I can have a positive attitude and expectations WHILE STILL maintaining a realistic outlook and analysis of situations. I do not need the delusions of false visions.
I have seen such stupid, stupid decisions made by people over years in business, health care, friendships, and roommates over this type of delusional BS.
I do not discount the power of positive thought and confession for changing one's circumstances, but so many times I have seen it lead people to confuse the action they must take. They grow to think that the repetitive religious activity of confession is action, when it no more will improve a situation than mindlessly repeating a mantra, Buddhist chant, or rosary will.
I made myself quit saying "bless you " several years before I left. It really got on my nerves. Perhaps someone knows where that came from?
The over use of "believing" is something I noted years ago when I was still a wayfer. Some years back the transmission on my car went out and I had it towed to a mechanic. Another innie gave me a ride to the mechanic and I was ranting a bit. I remember him looking at me and saying in a rather well meaning manner "well, let's just believe that it's alright." I remember thinking - "Alright?...believe?....it's already damaged and all the believing in the world is not going to change that."
Ok, so my point? I think the law of believing garbage cripples people's ability to cope. To me, when dealing with crisis, or other lesser problems, one of the first things I need is an accurate assessment. That means I have to acknowledge whats wrong whether it's positive or not. But if I truly believe that confession of belief yields receipt of confession then I must always be extra careful to not acknowledge the negatives lest I bring those instead or somehow validate those negatives giving them an existence. In retrospect the law of believing was one of the more damaging aspects of the way international.
The law of believing fosters a very strong sense of denial in a person. In my opinion, that alter reality that is slowly built into a person's views is very unhealthy.
Not to get all doctrinal here or anything....but, I also "believe" it wrongly puts the onus on the individual instead of God. People operating God by laws.....and not living a real life by faith. Apparently operating Satan by negative confession too.
Genuine faith is tested and we are tried, but it is not resolved by one's ability to "believe" their way out of it.....but to endure through it. Even then, the endurance is a God given ability.
One of our favorite catch verses or rallying cries in TWI was Romans 8:37 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors.." The Greek word for "in" means blah blah blah....pretty much means"in".....but, what I wonder is why we never really looked at what that verse was saying in context. Trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Doesn't mean these things won't HAPPEN...but when they do, even they can't separate us from the love of God.
Jesus said....in this life we are gonna have troubles.....clear enough I think.
He also said...in Luke 14:28 "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?
He made the cost of discipleship as high possible.....and told people...take an inventory before deciding to follow Him....When He talks about bearing our cross..or even losing our lives for HIS sake it is the second most repeated command in the gospels besides Follow ME. Notice He began pointing us to the cross, even at the height of His popularity and way before He Himself was crucified?
We made a commitment to a man....simply the wrong man.....so, no wonder we didn't understand trouble.....the man we followed was all about your best life now. Sadly, best life for him was about, sin, sex, profanity, drunkeness, debauchery, and a prideful, in your face, fist pumping, blatant denial of Jesus Christ....
What amazes me is that he did all this...... while leading us in a chorus of My Jesus I Love Thee.
I could get in a big doctornal discussion about believing and have in that area. Basicly, I don't know where they got the phrase "I'm believing for..." To the best of my knowledge it isn't in the Bible. Believe, Trust, Have Faith, yes, but "believe for" no. In addition I don't think you can expect to get results by believing, unless you have a specific promise from God either via revelation or the word. I think I can believe that you will find a job because God wants you to work. But I don't think you can "believe for" a specific job unless God has promised it to you.
"Bless you." I have no problem with. I can bless you, God can bless you, your wife can bless you. "Bless you really just means "happy be you." or "be happy." God bless you = God makes you happy, or God will bless you. That's something that God says in the bible. So know problem with either.
I agree, OldSkool. I can have a positive attitude and expectations WHILE STILL maintaining a realistic outlook and analysis of situations. I do not need the delusions of false visions.
I have seen such stupid, stupid decisions made by people over years in business, health care, friendships, and roommates over this type of delusional BS.
I do not discount the power of positive thought and confession for changing one's circumstances, but so many times I have seen it lead people to confuse the action they must take. They grow to think that the repetitive religious activity of confession is action, when it no more will improve a situation than mindlessly repeating a mantra, Buddhist chant, or rosary will.
Chock, it's interesting when one considers the scriptures that have been twisted to support the law of believing. As an example, Proverbs 23:7 - "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he."
Now I spent years as if it said, as a man thinks in his heart so shall it be! To me it simply means that what mental states a person develops will be reflected in how the person behaves. So is he. Anyways, not to get off on a doctrinal dissertation.
To me, it is an example of how the law of believing garbage taught by the way international causes delusion in a person. It makes it so to support the doctrine an alter reality must be maintained. Life must be filtered through the law of believing.
They quote those same versus while behaving delusionally. They change the scriptures from being a source of inspiration to being a mind-numbing mantra to chant. And they can't see it - they are blinded.
To me, it is an example of how the law of believing garbage taught by the way international causes delusion in a person. It makes it so to support the doctrine an alter reality must be maintained. Life must be filtered through the law of believing.
I think that is key to understanding the behavior. Many of these people desperately need to make up an alternate reality for themselves, because if they didn't they would realize that their life s4cks.
This in reality leads me to think of them in general more akin to Christian Scientist than Christian.
They quote those same versus while behaving delusionally. They change the scriptures from being a source of inspiration to being a mind-numbing mantra to chant. And they can't see it - they are blinded.
I think that is key to understanding the behavior. Many of these people desperately need to make up an alternate reality for themselves, because if they didn't they would realize that their life s4cks.
This in reality leads me to think of them in general more akin to Christian Scientist than Christian.
It makes me wonder that perhaps all the little cliches and useless mantras, like "I'm believing you are...." are needed to keep a person numb. Perhaps, when I was still involved with the way international and made an effort to not use the cliches, it was the beginning of my eventual departure? Not to say that it's a formula but for me I think it may be significant.
It makes me wonder that perhaps all the little cliches and useless mantras, like "I'm believing you are...." are needed to keep a person numb. Perhaps, when I was still involved with the way international and made an effort to not use the cliches, it was the beginning of my eventual departure? Not to say that it's a formula but for me I think it may be significant.
I did the same thing. Stopped using the jargon and started trying to speak like the people around me - my motive? To make it easier to witness to people. But what happened was that I started to realize how ridiculous we sounded to the rest of the world. I also had taken a writing class with ateacher who was a stickler for not repeating words unnecessarily, which made me even more aware of the repetitiveness of the Way vocabulary.
Maybe it marks a separation from the herd when you stop using Way-speak?
"Believing" was used as a crutch. Add "in the name of Jesus Christ", and it was a sealed deal and you said all the magic words. NEVER once in my almost 20 years in TWI did I ever hear anyone pray for God's will to happen. If whatever you believing for didn't come to pass, then you weren't believing.....clear and simple.
To me it is just like saying "bless you" all the time (the perfect Way saying for every situation! Not sure what to say? Say "bless you!").
Oh yeah...I didn't mind it so much when it was used sincerely (albeit mindlessly) by someone, but when it was used out of context, for example:
A couple of us are attempting to enter an area that the appointed TWI watchdog decides is off-limits for whatever reason; he steps in our path and says "bless you", when maybe, "Sorry guys, you can't go in there" might be more appropriate.
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Tzaia
I'll be believing for your deliverance.
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OldSkool
That's wonderful!
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JavaJane
It's just so.... arrogant. As if they could take credit somehow if you are doing well, or if you aren't doing well, then they are very spiritual for seeing that you needed their believing.
To me it is just like saying "bless you" all the time (the perfect Way saying for every situation! Not sure what to say? Say "bless you!"). This is probably just my personal pet peeve, but I always thought that "bless you" was a little arrogant - as if they had the power to bless me. I thought that was something God did, not twi. I understand using the phrase during a worship service, where the person teaching or leading the group is symbolically speaking a message to the people from God (such as a priest or pastor.) But in twi it was overused and abused.
One day at an event I was walking to where we were having our meal. I ran into someone and asked them, "How are you?" He responded automatically, "bless you...." I don't even think he heard what I had said. But, hey... bless you covers everything, right?
Now, if I sneeze, I do expect someone to say it. (a la Loki in Dogma.)
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OldSkool
I made myself quit saying "bless you " several years before I left. It really got on my nerves. Perhaps someone knows where that came from?
The over use of "believing" is something I noted years ago when I was still a wayfer. Some years back the transmission on my car went out and I had it towed to a mechanic. Another innie gave me a ride to the mechanic and I was ranting a bit. I remember him looking at me and saying in a rather well meaning manner "well, let's just believe that it's alright." I remember thinking - "Alright?...believe?....it's already damaged and all the believing in the world is not going to change that."
Ok, so my point? I think the law of believing garbage cripples people's ability to cope. To me, when dealing with crisis, or other lesser problems, one of the first things I need is an accurate assessment. That means I have to acknowledge whats wrong whether it's positive or not. But if I truly believe that confession of belief yields receipt of confession then I must always be extra careful to not acknowledge the negatives lest I bring those instead or somehow validate those negatives giving them an existence. In retrospect the law of believing was one of the more damaging aspects of the way international.
The law of believing fosters a very strong sense of denial in a person. In my opinion, that alter reality that is slowly built into a person's views is very unhealthy.
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chockfull
I agree, OldSkool. I can have a positive attitude and expectations WHILE STILL maintaining a realistic outlook and analysis of situations. I do not need the delusions of false visions.
I have seen such stupid, stupid decisions made by people over years in business, health care, friendships, and roommates over this type of delusional BS.
I do not discount the power of positive thought and confession for changing one's circumstances, but so many times I have seen it lead people to confuse the action they must take. They grow to think that the repetitive religious activity of confession is action, when it no more will improve a situation than mindlessly repeating a mantra, Buddhist chant, or rosary will.
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geisha779
Not to get all doctrinal here or anything....but, I also "believe" it wrongly puts the onus on the individual instead of God. People operating God by laws.....and not living a real life by faith. Apparently operating Satan by negative confession too.
Genuine faith is tested and we are tried, but it is not resolved by one's ability to "believe" their way out of it.....but to endure through it. Even then, the endurance is a God given ability.
One of our favorite catch verses or rallying cries in TWI was Romans 8:37 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors.." The Greek word for "in" means blah blah blah....pretty much means"in".....but, what I wonder is why we never really looked at what that verse was saying in context. Trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Doesn't mean these things won't HAPPEN...but when they do, even they can't separate us from the love of God.
Jesus said....in this life we are gonna have troubles.....clear enough I think.
He also said...in Luke 14:28 "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?
He made the cost of discipleship as high possible.....and told people...take an inventory before deciding to follow Him....When He talks about bearing our cross..or even losing our lives for HIS sake it is the second most repeated command in the gospels besides Follow ME. Notice He began pointing us to the cross, even at the height of His popularity and way before He Himself was crucified?
We made a commitment to a man....simply the wrong man.....so, no wonder we didn't understand trouble.....the man we followed was all about your best life now. Sadly, best life for him was about, sin, sex, profanity, drunkeness, debauchery, and a prideful, in your face, fist pumping, blatant denial of Jesus Christ....
What amazes me is that he did all this...... while leading us in a chorus of My Jesus I Love Thee.
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Keith
I could get in a big doctornal discussion about believing and have in that area. Basicly, I don't know where they got the phrase "I'm believing for..." To the best of my knowledge it isn't in the Bible. Believe, Trust, Have Faith, yes, but "believe for" no. In addition I don't think you can expect to get results by believing, unless you have a specific promise from God either via revelation or the word. I think I can believe that you will find a job because God wants you to work. But I don't think you can "believe for" a specific job unless God has promised it to you.
"Bless you." I have no problem with. I can bless you, God can bless you, your wife can bless you. "Bless you really just means "happy be you." or "be happy." God bless you = God makes you happy, or God will bless you. That's something that God says in the bible. So know problem with either.
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OldSkool
Chock, it's interesting when one considers the scriptures that have been twisted to support the law of believing. As an example, Proverbs 23:7 - "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he."
Now I spent years as if it said, as a man thinks in his heart so shall it be! To me it simply means that what mental states a person develops will be reflected in how the person behaves. So is he. Anyways, not to get off on a doctrinal dissertation.
To me, it is an example of how the law of believing garbage taught by the way international causes delusion in a person. It makes it so to support the doctrine an alter reality must be maintained. Life must be filtered through the law of believing.
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chockfull
geisha,
They quote those same versus while behaving delusionally. They change the scriptures from being a source of inspiration to being a mind-numbing mantra to chant. And they can't see it - they are blinded.
I think that is key to understanding the behavior. Many of these people desperately need to make up an alternate reality for themselves, because if they didn't they would realize that their life s4cks.
This in reality leads me to think of them in general more akin to Christian Scientist than Christian.
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OldSkool
It makes me wonder that perhaps all the little cliches and useless mantras, like "I'm believing you are...." are needed to keep a person numb. Perhaps, when I was still involved with the way international and made an effort to not use the cliches, it was the beginning of my eventual departure? Not to say that it's a formula but for me I think it may be significant.
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JavaJane
I did the same thing. Stopped using the jargon and started trying to speak like the people around me - my motive? To make it easier to witness to people. But what happened was that I started to realize how ridiculous we sounded to the rest of the world. I also had taken a writing class with ateacher who was a stickler for not repeating words unnecessarily, which made me even more aware of the repetitiveness of the Way vocabulary.
Maybe it marks a separation from the herd when you stop using Way-speak?
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OldSkool
Along those lines, perhaps the herd recognizes that too.
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Nottawayfer
"Believing" was used as a crutch. Add "in the name of Jesus Christ", and it was a sealed deal and you said all the magic words. NEVER once in my almost 20 years in TWI did I ever hear anyone pray for God's will to happen. If whatever you believing for didn't come to pass, then you weren't believing.....clear and simple.
If only it was that clear and simple.
Simple-minded SOBs taught that crap.
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Tzaia
Kinda flies in the face of "not my will, but your will be done," doesn't it?
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waysider
Youze guys just need to speak in tongues more and renew your minds.
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OldSkool
Oh, ok....
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Oakspear
A couple of us are attempting to enter an area that the appointed TWI watchdog decides is off-limits for whatever reason; he steps in our path and says "bless you", when maybe, "Sorry guys, you can't go in there" might be more appropriate.
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