I washed my former splinter group leader's (Victor Barnard's) feet once.
He sat through it like some kind of Royalty with a stupid condecending smirk on his face.
My then wife said to me later, I can't believe you washed his feet, looking at me like I was some kind of cretinous fool. (This was long before anybody told me he had been habitually bedding the women.)
I looked at her and said, "I had to, his feet were dirty. :mellow: "
I washed my former splinter group leader's (Victor Barnard's) feet once.
He sat through it like some kind of Royalty with a stupid condecending smirk on his face.
My then wife said to me later, I can't believe you washed his feet, looking at me like I was some kind of cretinous fool. (This was long before anybody told me he had been habitually bedding the women.)
I looked at her and said, "I had to, his feet were dirty. :mellow: "
The "denomination" I now associate with occassionally practices foot-washing. It isn't the people who wash the leaders' feet. It's the leaders who wash the people's feet. And it is meant to be a reminder of humility to the leaders.
I really liked Victor and sympathized with him for the mental and emotional drubbing he took during Momentus. I pray for him, but I wouldn't follow him.
The "denomination" I now associate with occassionally practices foot-washing. It isn't the people who wash the leaders' feet. It's the leaders who wash the people's feet. And it is meant to be a reminder of humility to the leaders.
I really liked Victor and sympathized with him for the mental and emotional drubbing he took during Momentus. I pray for him, but I wouldn't follow him.
Love,
Steve
I went to a communion fellowship once back in TWI. The fellow presenting the service washed everyone's feet before communion. He didn't say anything about it; he just did it. It is hard to put in words, but it was so personal an act of service. I was reminded of when Jesus washed the disciples feet. Peter said, "You shalt never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I don't wash you, you have no part with me." Peter said to him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head." Jesus said to him, "He that is washed needs not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and you are clean...."
Why only the feet? Maybe it is like the scripture that tells us to cast the dust off our feet (the junk we pick up by walking in this screwed up world).
It is amazing to me that we can do that for each other.
Jesus said, "If you know these things, happy are you if you do them.
That is pretty much where I go to when I think of feet washing Tom.
I don't pretend to know what people actually get out of it when a particular church sanctions some attempt at carrying through with similar actions to what the Lord did in John 13, but I do think that record is the one I must go back to every time I consider the matter. Along with anything else we may do it seems to me that the Lord's actions are singularly unique and head and shoulders above our best tries, but that just necessitates grace and mercy IMO.
Jon 13: (NIV)
1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.
3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.
5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"
7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
Verse seven here gets to me, to think the Lord did it and said in effect, "You won't get it now but you will later. How cool is that!? I read it and still wonder something like, "OK, what did they get later and when did they get it?, after the crucifiction?, after Pentacost?, after Judas' suicide? There may be different times that different disciples "got it" in their own way too.
8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"
10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."
11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
Ok, so here the Lord says they are clean except for Judas. And later it says satan entered Judas' heart. I've heard many long sermons speculating about Judas' motives but I keep going back to equating being unclean with deliberate wickedness, it seems to fit with what leads to the promised garbage fires coming at the Bema too IMO, and fits with the epistles.
It is my best understanding that it is the Lord's work, grace, mercy, and love that cleans a whole person. Here the Lord declared his disciples clean except for Judas.
I think each and every bit of our Christian fellowship can possibly fall into the category of helping others in their walk, whether doctrine, reproof, correction, encouragement, comfort, etc.; in effect we may serve each other by washing each other's feet with humility as our Lord did.
12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them.
13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.
14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.
15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
But going back to Barnard's feet (see post #4), I'm certain that he was full of deliberate wickedness. Any foot washing I might have hoped to do was a complete waste of time. His actions have since proved it too me.
I believe the Lord will reward him according to his works.
When a man thinks he's great he tends to think he is the big man and treat people's situation with a high hand. For me this is synonymous with "puffed up" in KJV terms.
When a person is not puffed up they can approach people with humility.
When a person ministers for a twisted and abusive organization they tend to be puffed up and claim they are being folks' servants at the same time, only proving they really don't get it IMO, from what I have seen.
When a man thinks he's great he tends to think he is the big man and treat people's situation with a high hand. For me this is synonymous with "puffed up" in KJV terms.
When a person is not puffed up they can approach people with humility.
When a person ministers for a twisted and abusive organization they tend to be puffed up and claim they are being folks' servants at the same time, only proving they really don't get it IMO, from what I have seen.
Yes, the fellow serving us communion & TWI came to a prting of the ways soon after. I think that it would be correct to say that at least one of the reasons was that exact difference that you just mentioned between their perspectives on what it means to serve.
Least to the greatest: aka Everyone: I think there is a great herding instinct among people - besides, people generally choose only from what others present to them as choices.
So, we, especially Americans, think of ourselves as individuals (thereby sacrificing family support and connections), but our individuality is circumscribed by forces beyond our ken that do the real molding.
So, people think of themselves as Democrat or Republican, & say they do so because their party is more or less this or that. The distinction in magnitude in whatever issue in either party is so small as to be not worth the effort because we ALL WIND UP IN THE SAME PLACE.
In the bible, everyone:
Is given to covetousness,
Or knows God because God forgives their iniquity,
Or goes here or their together,
Or mourns.
Covetousness can't be legislated by either partys agenda though we try. EVERYONE complains about it, but rarely does anyone recognize it in themselves. We, as a people, are herded into it from the least to the greatest usually by forces that we dont even recognize operating on us. Oh, we see it in the stock market and in corporations and in politics, but we don't recognize it operating on a personal level where it changes us and our relationships - so we all wind up in the same place.
"We often have to cut socks off the feet of the homeless as their skin has almost grown into their socks", said Rev. Crews. "As I wash their feet, the homeless often tell me their life stories. It's a very moving occasion and it always deepens my relationship with them."
None of us is "greater" or "lesser" than another person, but circumstances make it so.
The bigger house, flashier car, fancy clothes ... do not make the person.
The rags, cardboard box and begging bowl of the person who lives on the streets ... do not make the person.
Went to an event recently relating to a Christian charity that I help out with. It's lots of churches in my city that have formed a charity to help vulnerable/homeless/jobless/long-term outcasts. It's widely supported in the city, by a wide range of people and businesses. http://www.genesistrust.org.uk/
Anyway, they were celebrating their 20th "birthday" last week. All these Christians came, local dignitaries, etc - and quite a number of the "clients" - dishevelled, grubby, with the supermarket trolley that their worldly goods are stored in...
Peter, the Chairman, made a point of thanking everyone for their service. And first of all, he thanked the homeless ones for their service, their being there and giving an opportunity to serve to the others, for what they contributed to the quality of lives - of the serving Christians. It was beautifully done and very touching and very inclusive.
As to footwashing: the "greater" is to serve the "lesser".
We are all supposed to serve each other, in whatever way we can.
Foot washing was done by the most menial servant, as a gesture of welcome and hospitality.
I wonder, especially in our day and time, but perhaps in that time also, if footwashing does not also denote a sort of vulnerability on the part of the person whose foot is being washed.
The washed one allows someone to make that contact, and it is quite intimate contact. The washer could hurt the foot or treat it roughly - or just laugh at the ugly bunions, twisted toes and blackened toenails.
And (in our time) an embarrassment about allowing ourselves to be served so personally.
When I was a trainee in a high-powered job that involved presenting argument to seriously important people, the suggestion was given to me that I should imagine those important people as being seated on a toilet rather than a comfy seat. And the same for anyone else who is being pompous.
The image is so laughable that nervousness can dissipate.
Tell me one person who doesn't sit on a toilet several times a week - greatest or least!!
Can you imagine, for example, LCM or VPW sitting on a toilet with their trousers round their ankles, whilst pontificating in PFAL or during LCM's wonderful Advanced Class, or what have you? Would they have sounded quite so authoritative then?
(Sorry if that gives you a horrible mind-picture. )
Greater, Lesser - Haves, Have Nots - sure. We all have something no one else has,... ourself. It make you important, whether you know it or not. There are things you will understand that I never will. Who's greater then? There are times when the reverse is true. When people work together in love remarkable things can be accomplished. If parents and families work and function correctly it becomes apparent. In bigger groups, you always have the "expert" you need, just when you need one,... "Oh,... I know how to do that!" someone will say, "I just didn't think it was all that important."
Who knows how to work on a car? I do,... but I can't sing to save my life, although I love music. I had to find a way to express myself with a saxaphone. My brother thinks that's wonderful, but I, on the other hand, watch him guide 35 kids to work together and learn (he's a High School teacher). Thirty-five kids would probably train me to sing badly for their parents or something.
We suffer when people are mean to others, because it makes them feel unwanted, they sometimes give-up. Being nice is important, and caring is vital. It's what you have that you give to others that makes you great. What you hoard, what you withold and who you can hurt,... don't make you great.
His disciples were discussing which of them would be the greatest. This seems just like something that might happen among friends involved in any endeavor. It doesn't HAVE TO BE all contentious and mean-hearted as most seem to portray the record.
But the Lord came in told them how to be great, in effect by not trying to be great, by trying to be the opposite.
For me it brings to mind that the Lord knew how petty and competitive men can be, even among friends.
Or at the very least he used their conversation as a springboard to get them to think about he himself was meek and lowly in general.
What are you saying? I've read it a few times today and still not sure.
Anyways....coveting , yeah we all do it.
It's what we covet that matters, imo.
Sorry, Cman, I haven't been ignoring you. I get busy here, plus I wasn't sure how to say it in other words. I'm still not.
The least to the greatest equals everyone.
We like to think of ourselves as individuals choosing our own way, but there is a great tendency to go along with the direction everyone else is going. It is very hard to go against the direction our society is going – harder than anyone thinks. Everyone takes their cues from those around them. To do otherwise requires a frame of reference that is different from everyone around you. That is hard to find and harder to maintain. Even “Christians,” who generally think they have their own otherworldly frame of reference – The Word – generally subscribe to the “truth” that their group – their leadership – says is true. So, again, without a truly different frame of reference, Christians, like everyone else in their society, wind up going in the same direction.
So, what I see here is that societies, as a whole, many times descend into covetousness of all kinds - every man for himself – selfishness – generally.
Sometimes a true man rises up & others follow. Then the society – as a whole – thankfully knows the true God. Why? Because he has forgiven their iniquity. Someone has been true enough to recognize God’s gracious actions on his behalf, bold enough to live it & speak it. Thirsty society drinks it up. Everyone knows God – sometimes.
When that is lost – everyone mourns.
In each of the three above cases, everyone – the least to the greatest- follows suite. The least is not small enough to slip through unaffected. The greatest is not great enough to buck the crowd.
I’m not saying this happens all the time & that you can’t choose to go against the flow. But it DOES happen. It IS happening in our society. I find this reality very humbling. Don’t be numbed. Don’t be silenced. Be bold – choose – speak.
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year2027
God first
thanks cman
yes "the greatest and the least" is like saying God are more than and less than truth
Like the faces of love with the faces of hate the understanding gives us a balance above and below
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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cman
good point year2027
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JeffSjo
I washed my former splinter group leader's (Victor Barnard's) feet once.
He sat through it like some kind of Royalty with a stupid condecending smirk on his face.
My then wife said to me later, I can't believe you washed his feet, looking at me like I was some kind of cretinous fool. (This was long before anybody told me he had been habitually bedding the women.)
I looked at her and said, "I had to, his feet were dirty. :mellow: "
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Steve Lortz
The "denomination" I now associate with occassionally practices foot-washing. It isn't the people who wash the leaders' feet. It's the leaders who wash the people's feet. And it is meant to be a reminder of humility to the leaders.
I really liked Victor and sympathized with him for the mental and emotional drubbing he took during Momentus. I pray for him, but I wouldn't follow him.
Love,
Steve
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cman
here's the wikipedia on foot washing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_of_the_feet
symbolizing serving each other for the most part I believe
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Tom
I went to a communion fellowship once back in TWI. The fellow presenting the service washed everyone's feet before communion. He didn't say anything about it; he just did it. It is hard to put in words, but it was so personal an act of service. I was reminded of when Jesus washed the disciples feet. Peter said, "You shalt never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I don't wash you, you have no part with me." Peter said to him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head." Jesus said to him, "He that is washed needs not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and you are clean...."
Why only the feet? Maybe it is like the scripture that tells us to cast the dust off our feet (the junk we pick up by walking in this screwed up world).
It is amazing to me that we can do that for each other.
Jesus said, "If you know these things, happy are you if you do them.
Quite amazing!
Tom
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JeffSjo
That is pretty much where I go to when I think of feet washing Tom.
I don't pretend to know what people actually get out of it when a particular church sanctions some attempt at carrying through with similar actions to what the Lord did in John 13, but I do think that record is the one I must go back to every time I consider the matter. Along with anything else we may do it seems to me that the Lord's actions are singularly unique and head and shoulders above our best tries, but that just necessitates grace and mercy IMO.
Jon 13: (NIV)
1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.
3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.
5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"
7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
Verse seven here gets to me, to think the Lord did it and said in effect, "You won't get it now but you will later. How cool is that!? I read it and still wonder something like, "OK, what did they get later and when did they get it?, after the crucifiction?, after Pentacost?, after Judas' suicide? There may be different times that different disciples "got it" in their own way too.
8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"
10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."
11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
Ok, so here the Lord says they are clean except for Judas. And later it says satan entered Judas' heart. I've heard many long sermons speculating about Judas' motives but I keep going back to equating being unclean with deliberate wickedness, it seems to fit with what leads to the promised garbage fires coming at the Bema too IMO, and fits with the epistles.
It is my best understanding that it is the Lord's work, grace, mercy, and love that cleans a whole person. Here the Lord declared his disciples clean except for Judas.
I think each and every bit of our Christian fellowship can possibly fall into the category of helping others in their walk, whether doctrine, reproof, correction, encouragement, comfort, etc.; in effect we may serve each other by washing each other's feet with humility as our Lord did.
12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them.
13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.
14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.
15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
But going back to Barnard's feet (see post #4), I'm certain that he was full of deliberate wickedness. Any foot washing I might have hoped to do was a complete waste of time. His actions have since proved it too me.
I believe the Lord will reward him according to his works.
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cman
Ok, got the feet thing pretty much...
any other thoughts on the least and the greatest?
let's see what else there may be in here
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JeffSjo
When a man thinks he's great he tends to think he is the big man and treat people's situation with a high hand. For me this is synonymous with "puffed up" in KJV terms.
When a person is not puffed up they can approach people with humility.
When a person ministers for a twisted and abusive organization they tend to be puffed up and claim they are being folks' servants at the same time, only proving they really don't get it IMO, from what I have seen.
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Tom
Yes, the fellow serving us communion & TWI came to a prting of the ways soon after. I think that it would be correct to say that at least one of the reasons was that exact difference that you just mentioned between their perspectives on what it means to serve.
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cman
hm,
the man must be bound
for the thief (Christ) to come
and spoil his goods
then he will see the real goods
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Tom
Least to the greatest: aka Everyone: I think there is a great herding instinct among people - besides, people generally choose only from what others present to them as choices.
So, we, especially Americans, think of ourselves as individuals (thereby sacrificing family support and connections), but our individuality is circumscribed by forces beyond our ken that do the real molding.
So, people think of themselves as Democrat or Republican, & say they do so because their party is more or less this or that. The distinction in magnitude in whatever issue in either party is so small as to be not worth the effort because we ALL WIND UP IN THE SAME PLACE.
In the bible, everyone:
Is given to covetousness,
Or knows God because God forgives their iniquity,
Or goes here or their together,
Or mourns.
Covetousness can't be legislated by either partys agenda though we try. EVERYONE complains about it, but rarely does anyone recognize it in themselves. We, as a people, are herded into it from the least to the greatest usually by forces that we dont even recognize operating on us. Oh, we see it in the stock market and in corporations and in politics, but we don't recognize it operating on a personal level where it changes us and our relationships - so we all wind up in the same place.
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cman
Not sure what you mean there Tom.
What are you saying? I've read it a few times today and still not sure.
Anyways....coveting , yeah we all do it.
It's what we covet that matters, imo.
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sirguessalot
Buddhists, Muslims & Christians wash the feet of the homeless this Easter
strange way to interpret scripture
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cman
yeah, lol...i don't think Jesus should be blamed for this
although it is a good idea if they get new socks and shoes too
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Twinky
The greatest and the least...
None of us is "greater" or "lesser" than another person, but circumstances make it so.
The bigger house, flashier car, fancy clothes ... do not make the person.
The rags, cardboard box and begging bowl of the person who lives on the streets ... do not make the person.
Went to an event recently relating to a Christian charity that I help out with. It's lots of churches in my city that have formed a charity to help vulnerable/homeless/jobless/long-term outcasts. It's widely supported in the city, by a wide range of people and businesses. http://www.genesistrust.org.uk/
Anyway, they were celebrating their 20th "birthday" last week. All these Christians came, local dignitaries, etc - and quite a number of the "clients" - dishevelled, grubby, with the supermarket trolley that their worldly goods are stored in...
Peter, the Chairman, made a point of thanking everyone for their service. And first of all, he thanked the homeless ones for their service, their being there and giving an opportunity to serve to the others, for what they contributed to the quality of lives - of the serving Christians. It was beautifully done and very touching and very inclusive.
As to footwashing: the "greater" is to serve the "lesser".
We are all supposed to serve each other, in whatever way we can.
Foot washing was done by the most menial servant, as a gesture of welcome and hospitality.
I wonder, especially in our day and time, but perhaps in that time also, if footwashing does not also denote a sort of vulnerability on the part of the person whose foot is being washed.
The washed one allows someone to make that contact, and it is quite intimate contact. The washer could hurt the foot or treat it roughly - or just laugh at the ugly bunions, twisted toes and blackened toenails.
And (in our time) an embarrassment about allowing ourselves to be served so personally.
Just a random thought.
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cman
Nice post Twinky, thanks, and to all for their thoughts, spoken or not.
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Twinky
Oh I meant to add under the first part,
When I was a trainee in a high-powered job that involved presenting argument to seriously important people, the suggestion was given to me that I should imagine those important people as being seated on a toilet rather than a comfy seat. And the same for anyone else who is being pompous.
The image is so laughable that nervousness can dissipate.
Tell me one person who doesn't sit on a toilet several times a week - greatest or least!!
Can you imagine, for example, LCM or VPW sitting on a toilet with their trousers round their ankles, whilst pontificating in PFAL or during LCM's wonderful Advanced Class, or what have you? Would they have sounded quite so authoritative then?
(Sorry if that gives you a horrible mind-picture.
)
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Gen-2
Greater, Lesser - Haves, Have Nots - sure. We all have something no one else has,... ourself. It make you important, whether you know it or not. There are things you will understand that I never will. Who's greater then? There are times when the reverse is true. When people work together in love remarkable things can be accomplished. If parents and families work and function correctly it becomes apparent. In bigger groups, you always have the "expert" you need, just when you need one,... "Oh,... I know how to do that!" someone will say, "I just didn't think it was all that important."
Who knows how to work on a car? I do,... but I can't sing to save my life, although I love music. I had to find a way to express myself with a saxaphone. My brother thinks that's wonderful, but I, on the other hand, watch him guide 35 kids to work together and learn (he's a High School teacher). Thirty-five kids would probably train me to sing badly for their parents or something.
We suffer when people are mean to others, because it makes them feel unwanted, they sometimes give-up. Being nice is important, and caring is vital. It's what you have that you give to others that makes you great. What you hoard, what you withold and who you can hurt,... don't make you great.
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JeffSjo
His disciples were discussing which of them would be the greatest. This seems just like something that might happen among friends involved in any endeavor. It doesn't HAVE TO BE all contentious and mean-hearted as most seem to portray the record.
But the Lord came in told them how to be great, in effect by not trying to be great, by trying to be the opposite.
For me it brings to mind that the Lord knew how petty and competitive men can be, even among friends.
Or at the very least he used their conversation as a springboard to get them to think about he himself was meek and lowly in general.
No matter...I love the record.
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Tom
Sorry, Cman, I haven't been ignoring you. I get busy here, plus I wasn't sure how to say it in other words. I'm still not.
The least to the greatest equals everyone.
We like to think of ourselves as individuals choosing our own way, but there is a great tendency to go along with the direction everyone else is going. It is very hard to go against the direction our society is going – harder than anyone thinks. Everyone takes their cues from those around them. To do otherwise requires a frame of reference that is different from everyone around you. That is hard to find and harder to maintain. Even “Christians,” who generally think they have their own otherworldly frame of reference – The Word – generally subscribe to the “truth” that their group – their leadership – says is true. So, again, without a truly different frame of reference, Christians, like everyone else in their society, wind up going in the same direction.
So, what I see here is that societies, as a whole, many times descend into covetousness of all kinds - every man for himself – selfishness – generally.
Sometimes a true man rises up & others follow. Then the society – as a whole – thankfully knows the true God. Why? Because he has forgiven their iniquity. Someone has been true enough to recognize God’s gracious actions on his behalf, bold enough to live it & speak it. Thirsty society drinks it up. Everyone knows God – sometimes.
When that is lost – everyone mourns.
In each of the three above cases, everyone – the least to the greatest- follows suite. The least is not small enough to slip through unaffected. The greatest is not great enough to buck the crowd.
I’m not saying this happens all the time & that you can’t choose to go against the flow. But it DOES happen. It IS happening in our society. I find this reality very humbling. Don’t be numbed. Don’t be silenced. Be bold – choose – speak.
Tom
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