I know that Oakspear and I both presented our research and observations to our leadership that went absolutely nowhere. Granted, it contradicted established TWI doctrine and both of us were considered "problem children" in our respective branches.
My ex submitted some very well thought out - researched and documented information to the Right Rev. Moneyhands and never heard a peep back from him on it. And my ex was one of Moynihan's golden boys. He was crushed that Moneyhands never got back with him on it even after V asked him about it several times.
In fact, after these things, our local leadership told us that he had submitted research to hq that was ignored and would never be acknowledged because "that's how they are".
I countered that it was hypocritical and wrong for them to be like that, but they continued to justify and excuse the behavior. *sigh* You (rhetorical) either continue sitting in vomit allowing a group like that to tell you what to do and what to think or you learn to think on your own which will lead you to a cleaner pasture.
But, But, but they re-searched the debt policy??
;)
LOL! That was pathetic and utterly twisted.
Has everyone seen the brilliant debt research information presented by Chris Jordan? It's fabulous - precisely follows TWI's rules for research and clearly shows how wrong the TWI doctrine and teachings on debt are.
I think the link to it may be here at the cafe, if not, I have a copy of it on the home computer.
In fact, after these things, our local leadership told us that he had submitted research to hq that was ignored and would never be acknowledged because "that's how they are".
See, that is precisely what many field leadership think and even though they disagree with it and know it's wrong they will not do anything about it. They decide to live under that hypocrisy for .....insert reason here....., and generally refuse to go near headquarters unless it's for a short event. But go on staff?....no way. The honest thing to do is to air your grievances and leave if there is no resolution. But it's interesting that the bondage that the innie's are in is so obvious when you are on the outside looking in. Anyways...
I would love that link Belle. Thanks in advance if you have it.
godzilla is bad-foot and japanese... so... yeah. I would never play a video game with... oh, wait. an awful but pretty awesome thought just crossed my mind. maybe I would play a video game like that, if it played out like house of the dead. hellz yeah.
I'd suspect that such a policy would highlight two things:
1. People who were reading other non-Way research materials.
2. People who were still able to think a little for themselves.
Both are quite dangerous to the status quo and so in submitting "new" material to TWI you might as well be signing a gag order and upon repeat offencees, your own M&A order.
OldSkool, and anyone else interested, Chris's paper is 23 pages long and the link she posted to it in this post at the cafe no longer works. I found my copy at home but think it's too long to post here and I don't find a link to it at the cafe. I'll be glad to e-mail it to whatever address you'd like.
I also have my notes on Rico's teaching to the WC on debt which *starts* with Chris' conclusion and winds a circuitous path among many tangents which utterly confuse and get off the topic of actual monetary debt. :wacko: The link is basically the notes, but I'll share my copy sans GSpot comments, if preferred.
In addition, here is a link to a thread where I post correspondence between Moneyhands and my Daddy, seasoned banker, and debt.
Huge choo choo train off the subject of research, though. :blush: It's a topic I'm passionate about, sorry! I've seen too many of my friends hurt terribly by this idiotic law of TWI.
When they demoted the big forehead to the head of research, I knew there was no one competent left to do any real research.
I actually had submitted something only to have it ignored. Their rules for presenting new research is just a front for that circular filing cabinet we all use daily.
When I was in-residence Corps training, we had a Greek class presented by Ed H0&n$y. For anyone that knew any real Greek, it was a laughable presentation. Of course it was geared to those who knew zero. Learning the alphabet, pronunciation, and simple grammar. You'd think the basic level of the class would be impossible to screw up.. Think again! It was so awful I went to my Corps Coordinator to ask them how I should handle "correcting" the teacher. Of course, in the typical Way of doing things, I was told to just ignore his glaring problems and only focus on correcting any handouts since he couldn't be expected to be 100% correct in a class concerning a subject he had no formal training in (outside of TWI). But the handouts were time proven and had been given to all the past Corps for many years. So, I was given the opportunity to take that evening's study time to correct any mistakes in their handouts. Anything else was not allowed, and I had to use my own study materials. So I worked through the Greek grammar handouts page by page, and wrote up corrections, giving a Biblical reference and page numbers in a Beginner, an Intermediate, and an Advanced Greek reference book. Three different books, that they could reference to see why I was correcting the mistake. (At that time I didn't have a good personal selection. I used Dana and Mantey's Greek Grammar for the intermediate, "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament In Light Of Historical Research" by A.T. Robertson as my Advanced, and i don't even remember the Beginner's book at this time. It was out of print, but the same book my dad had used when taking Greek at a real Seminary, and I had used myself). Needless to say, I submitted the paper to them and they were not happy I was correcting the "teacher". I know they read through it, since a week after the class the "teacher" diverged from the usual TWI mantra on a verse and instead quoted me word for word which contradicted TWIs normal take. So I thought they might actually care after all. No.. Didn't happen. A couple months later as my Corps was graduating, the "teacher" came up to me and told me how he hadn't had time to study it, that it wasn't all that important, but he had filed it away and someday might look at it. Then, he had the audacity to try and explain how I was probably wrong and was going off a different dialect of Greek, and that I should just be meek enough to listen to him. But that someday he might look at it and correct me on the specifics. Seeing that an hour or so later I would be graduating, I shut my mouth. Knowing full well all the references were to Koine and not another dialect.
Yeah, they really care about new research, NOT. Honestly, I didn't care that much about Greek. But knowing they really cared zero about the truth, and more about protecting themselves, was another nail out of the coffin opening my eyes.
Holy smokes! I had those classes and they were absolutely terrible. I could barely stay awake and then the tests they gave us on the material were worse than the class. What a joke. They had better hope that Colorado stays laid back in their accreditation standards, otherwise they will not be able to issue those worthless degrees they give out. It's insane that you were disregarded and treated that way. I guess that was your welcome into the way corpse.
They have yes men validate their positions. That's brilliant. Pages straight out of a communist regime. Well, anyway. Now-a-days instead of a yes man, we have "yes ma'ams" ----- get it-----yes ma'ams...
Holy smokes! I had those classes and they were absolutely terrible. I could barely stay awake and then the tests they gave us on the material were worse than the class. What a joke. They had better hope that Colorado stays laid back in their accreditation standards, otherwise they will not be able to issue those worthless degrees they give out. It's insane that you were disregarded and treated that way. I guess that was your welcome into the way corpse.
The Corps degree has never been accredited. To be accredited you actually have to have people with an accredited doctorate on your staff teaching. They've chased off anyone with that potential. I personally have seen this to be a major problem in many, many areas where Corps program graduates that do not have another degree previously try and use it to go to school or in other areas like education. Many of the non-degreed jobs in education are starting to require certain numbers of college credits. People try and call up Robin M and get some form of record, transcript, etc. There is NO record that exists, no record of classes, training, nothing documented. They can't be helped. In any kind of educational or professional sense it was a sheer waste of time. Even a po-dunc little theological seminary like you can find all over the place does better than that - they keep records of students, classes, and are at least regionally accredited.
Maybe they're just looking within the ministry for new ideas to plagarize. Find something juicy in the submitted research,... wait X many years,... and publish! You can stave off the critics by saying "You can't sue me, nanny nanny boo boo! ...because it's religious doctrine" or somesuch tripe (anything to divert from the truth that it was just the theft of another's labor). In a pinch, you could at least get a good Sunday Night Service teaching out of someone's submission.
Maybe they're just looking within the ministry for new ideas to plagarize. Find something juicy in the submitted research,... wait X many years,... and publish! You can stave off the critics by saying "You can't sue me, nanny nanny boo boo! ...because it's religious doctrine" or somesuch tripe (anything to divert from the truth that it was just the theft of another's labor). In a pinch, you could at least get a good Sunday Night Service teaching out of someone's submission.
That's been done already.
Some of the work even came from people who post here on GSC.
The Corps degree has never been accredited. To be accredited you actually have to have people with an accredited doctorate on your staff teaching. They've chased off anyone with that potential. I personally have seen this to be a major problem in many, many areas where Corps program graduates that do not have another degree previously try and use it to go to school or in other areas like education. Many of the non-degreed jobs in education are starting to require certain numbers of college credits. People try and call up Robin M and get some form of record, transcript, etc. There is NO record that exists, no record of classes, training, nothing documented. They can't be helped. In any kind of educational or professional sense it was a sheer waste of time. Even a po-dunc little theological seminary like you can find all over the place does better than that - they keep records of students, classes, and are at least regionally accredited.
They lie. I was told that they were accredited in Colorado. Lie like a rug. What a ruse.
It wasn't as if it was a rumor either, it was someone administrating the program that told me.
They lie. I was told that they were accredited in Colorado. Lie like a rug. What a ruse.
Oh absolutely. Lying is standard practice in TWI leadership. I have been lied to straight to my face by many top leaders. Theirs is an ethics of expediency, which is how they justify their lies to themselves - "so the ministry is not blamed". And their own political gains and aspirations are viewed as protecting the ministry. Great atrocities are performed, huge dishonestly promulgated, all with that little justification. And people buy it. And others, myself included, somehow just didn't focus on that and those things would slip right on by. Like that RR example of the 2000 Corps meeting. Good words and fair speeches, and they deceive the simple.
It really makes you wonder how some people so accustomed to dealing in lies make a living off selling the truth.
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Gen-2
Bury that discontent , soldier,... right next to your submitted ideas.
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Ham
Maybe they would rather you put the new ideas in their suggestion box..
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nyunknown
Rodzilla don't you mean godzilla?
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Ham
I dunno. Godzilla is "prettier". At least in my opinion..
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Bolshevik
But, But, but they re-searched the debt policy??
;)
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Belle
I know that Oakspear and I both presented our research and observations to our leadership that went absolutely nowhere. Granted, it contradicted established TWI doctrine and both of us were considered "problem children" in our respective branches.
My ex submitted some very well thought out - researched and documented information to the Right Rev. Moneyhands and never heard a peep back from him on it. And my ex was one of Moynihan's golden boys. He was crushed that Moneyhands never got back with him on it even after V asked him about it several times.
In fact, after these things, our local leadership told us that he had submitted research to hq that was ignored and would never be acknowledged because "that's how they are".
I countered that it was hypocritical and wrong for them to be like that, but they continued to justify and excuse the behavior. *sigh* You (rhetorical) either continue sitting in vomit allowing a group like that to tell you what to do and what to think or you learn to think on your own which will lead you to a cleaner pasture.
LOL! That was pathetic and utterly twisted.
Has everyone seen the brilliant debt research information presented by Chris Jordan? It's fabulous - precisely follows TWI's rules for research and clearly shows how wrong the TWI doctrine and teachings on debt are.
I think the link to it may be here at the cafe, if not, I have a copy of it on the home computer.
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OldSkool
See, that is precisely what many field leadership think and even though they disagree with it and know it's wrong they will not do anything about it. They decide to live under that hypocrisy for .....insert reason here....., and generally refuse to go near headquarters unless it's for a short event. But go on staff?....no way. The honest thing to do is to air your grievances and leave if there is no resolution. But it's interesting that the bondage that the innie's are in is so obvious when you are on the outside looking in. Anyways...
I would love that link Belle. Thanks in advance if you have it.
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nyunknown
Yea you are right! I should not insult Godzilla like that!
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OldSkool
Godzilla isn't a blue hair either.
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nyunknown
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potato
godzilla is bad-foot and japanese... so... yeah. I would never play a video game with... oh, wait. an awful but pretty awesome thought just crossed my mind. maybe I would play a video game like that, if it played out like house of the dead. hellz yeah.
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Twinky
I'd suspect that such a policy would highlight two things:
1. People who were reading other non-Way research materials.
2. People who were still able to think a little for themselves.
Both are quite dangerous to the status quo and so in submitting "new" material to TWI you might as well be signing a gag order and upon repeat offencees, your own M&A order.
(who's a Cynic? Surely not me!)
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Belle
OldSkool, and anyone else interested, Chris's paper is 23 pages long and the link she posted to it in this post at the cafe no longer works. I found my copy at home but think it's too long to post here and I don't find a link to it at the cafe. I'll be glad to e-mail it to whatever address you'd like.
I also have my notes on Rico's teaching to the WC on debt which *starts* with Chris' conclusion and winds a circuitous path among many tangents which utterly confuse and get off the topic of actual monetary debt. :wacko: The link is basically the notes, but I'll share my copy sans GSpot comments, if preferred.
In addition, here is a link to a thread where I post correspondence between Moneyhands and my Daddy, seasoned banker, and debt.
Huge choo choo train off the subject of research, though. :blush: It's a topic I'm passionate about, sorry! I've seen too many of my friends hurt terribly by this idiotic law of TWI.
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Twinky
Maybe Paw could put up some new links, if you emailed the documents to him, Belle?
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Oakspear
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TrustAndObey
When they demoted the big forehead to the head of research, I knew there was no one competent left to do any real research.
I actually had submitted something only to have it ignored. Their rules for presenting new research is just a front for that circular filing cabinet we all use daily.
When I was in-residence Corps training, we had a Greek class presented by Ed H0&n$y. For anyone that knew any real Greek, it was a laughable presentation. Of course it was geared to those who knew zero. Learning the alphabet, pronunciation, and simple grammar. You'd think the basic level of the class would be impossible to screw up.. Think again! It was so awful I went to my Corps Coordinator to ask them how I should handle "correcting" the teacher. Of course, in the typical Way of doing things, I was told to just ignore his glaring problems and only focus on correcting any handouts since he couldn't be expected to be 100% correct in a class concerning a subject he had no formal training in (outside of TWI). But the handouts were time proven and had been given to all the past Corps for many years. So, I was given the opportunity to take that evening's study time to correct any mistakes in their handouts. Anything else was not allowed, and I had to use my own study materials. So I worked through the Greek grammar handouts page by page, and wrote up corrections, giving a Biblical reference and page numbers in a Beginner, an Intermediate, and an Advanced Greek reference book. Three different books, that they could reference to see why I was correcting the mistake. (At that time I didn't have a good personal selection. I used Dana and Mantey's Greek Grammar for the intermediate, "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament In Light Of Historical Research" by A.T. Robertson as my Advanced, and i don't even remember the Beginner's book at this time. It was out of print, but the same book my dad had used when taking Greek at a real Seminary, and I had used myself). Needless to say, I submitted the paper to them and they were not happy I was correcting the "teacher". I know they read through it, since a week after the class the "teacher" diverged from the usual TWI mantra on a verse and instead quoted me word for word which contradicted TWIs normal take. So I thought they might actually care after all. No.. Didn't happen. A couple months later as my Corps was graduating, the "teacher" came up to me and told me how he hadn't had time to study it, that it wasn't all that important, but he had filed it away and someday might look at it. Then, he had the audacity to try and explain how I was probably wrong and was going off a different dialect of Greek, and that I should just be meek enough to listen to him. But that someday he might look at it and correct me on the specifics. Seeing that an hour or so later I would be graduating, I shut my mouth. Knowing full well all the references were to Koine and not another dialect.
Yeah, they really care about new research, NOT. Honestly, I didn't care that much about Greek. But knowing they really cared zero about the truth, and more about protecting themselves, was another nail out of the coffin opening my eyes.
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OldSkool
Holy smokes! I had those classes and they were absolutely terrible. I could barely stay awake and then the tests they gave us on the material were worse than the class. What a joke. They had better hope that Colorado stays laid back in their accreditation standards, otherwise they will not be able to issue those worthless degrees they give out. It's insane that you were disregarded and treated that way. I guess that was your welcome into the way corpse.
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Ham
maybe we need to define "research"..
"well kids.. over *forty* (sixty, sixty one..) years of biblical *research*.. and we can state.. having sex with animals is...
(horrors..) WRONG..
is that the best Co*lter and gang could come up with?
and even at that.. there are some who would challenge them of their *belief*.. and offer a BETTER argument than they..
its really pitiful..
I mean really.. even at what one would consider the "basics" of life and christianity..
honestly..
the "no animals" policy.. was the original "research" submitted in triplicate..
were there "teams" of biblical "researchers" assigned to confirm whether this was "new light"?
the "twue" word of gawd?
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OldSkool
They have yes men validate their positions. That's brilliant. Pages straight out of a communist regime. Well, anyway. Now-a-days instead of a yes man, we have "yes ma'ams" ----- get it-----yes ma'ams...
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chockfull
The Corps degree has never been accredited. To be accredited you actually have to have people with an accredited doctorate on your staff teaching. They've chased off anyone with that potential. I personally have seen this to be a major problem in many, many areas where Corps program graduates that do not have another degree previously try and use it to go to school or in other areas like education. Many of the non-degreed jobs in education are starting to require certain numbers of college credits. People try and call up Robin M and get some form of record, transcript, etc. There is NO record that exists, no record of classes, training, nothing documented. They can't be helped. In any kind of educational or professional sense it was a sheer waste of time. Even a po-dunc little theological seminary like you can find all over the place does better than that - they keep records of students, classes, and are at least regionally accredited.
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Gen-2
Maybe they're just looking within the ministry for new ideas to plagarize. Find something juicy in the submitted research,... wait X many years,... and publish! You can stave off the critics by saying "You can't sue me, nanny nanny boo boo! ...because it's religious doctrine" or somesuch tripe (anything to divert from the truth that it was just the theft of another's labor). In a pinch, you could at least get a good Sunday Night Service teaching out of someone's submission.
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waysider
That's been done already.
Some of the work even came from people who post here on GSC.
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OldSkool
They lie. I was told that they were accredited in Colorado. Lie like a rug. What a ruse.
It wasn't as if it was a rumor either, it was someone administrating the program that told me.
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chockfull
Oh absolutely. Lying is standard practice in TWI leadership. I have been lied to straight to my face by many top leaders. Theirs is an ethics of expediency, which is how they justify their lies to themselves - "so the ministry is not blamed". And their own political gains and aspirations are viewed as protecting the ministry. Great atrocities are performed, huge dishonestly promulgated, all with that little justification. And people buy it. And others, myself included, somehow just didn't focus on that and those things would slip right on by. Like that RR example of the 2000 Corps meeting. Good words and fair speeches, and they deceive the simple.
It really makes you wonder how some people so accustomed to dealing in lies make a living off selling the truth.
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