Composer...i doubt i could satisfy your questions the way you ask them...but i hear a genuine shout underneath.
if i may ask...in all your years of searching for people to come forward and satisfy your questions, have you ever looked into fields like hospice, chaplaincy, grief-counseling? Or found somewhere caregivers go for healing?
Nurses and doctors...monks and nuns...midwives and chaplains...most all the teachers are dying or dead...and most all the students are grey and white...a lotta talk about Love in the face of Oblivion.
wondering...how is your search filter doing?
does reading a book somehow meet the same criteria as an author stepping forward to answer you?
I'm not sure what you mean by "not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward" at all composer. But for the record, while I try to remain open to explore new concepts and view points I don't exactly have a habit of backing down from aggressive people.
I think you are free to think of us "storybook" types as you will. Since I don't consider the Bible a simple story book I have become use to letting people hold their own opinions, and like I said before, my plate sometimes seems full with reasoning with others who say they take the scriptures more seriously than you do and sorting out my own "Way International" history.
"Reality" is easily confuse with "persective" IMO.
My "perspective" as concerning scripture easily handles your "reality" but is at odds with your "perspective."
And as I expressed before, I generally speaking don't choose to force people to look at ugly realities, they will have to soon enough as long as they keep breathing. The single notable exeption as it pertains to reality here at The Greasespot is that many of us are in various stages of recognizing "The Way" for what it really was and I see great potential for good in that realization, but it is still not anything with which I take any kind of glee in and constantly hope to find a good balance between reality and care for the individual.
But as concerning the folks who have been hurt the worst I can feel downright angy. Sometimes for even just the possible benefit of comforting their hearts I will as some say, go to far. But from my persective as their hurts are real and the damage has been devastating to many I mostly worry about not having gone far enough.
Why is it composer, that you are aggressive? What motivates you to say such things as a persons beliefs are insufficient? I give you credit for your own right to reason but you are repeatedly insulting, why?
You have every right to think that even though I disagree. If you wish to continue thinking so it is your right.
If you wish to take up my biblical views as I have posted them already you are free to do so. I suspect we will still disagree if you go that route.
But if you wish to describe my words as "bleating" along with your many implications of logical breakdowns and insufficiency as concerning Christians I will end up not backing down to you I assure you.
And from my perspective as you choose to hold onto your insults without taking up the specifics of my previous post you are just another person with a stong opinion without the cohones to take on a particular opposing viewpoint with reason and/or logic youself....HHHmmmm...Isn't that exactly what you accuse us Christians of being?
Could you point out ' what specifics ' you are referring to and we can discuss them?
Also the sum total of your evidence that the story book is the words of a God given to men, remains nothing but a warm & fuzzy ' feeling ' you have, that this is the case, is that correct?
Could you point out ' what specifics ' you are referring to and we can discuss them?
THIS IS A COPY OF MY POST #34......
Been thinking about this one for a bit, since reading Sirgues.... in another thread.
I think the key for me to getting what seems like good footing for me in this area is the consideration of the fall of man.
Without the fall there would be no death and human suffering IMO.
With "the fall" we get death, suffering, a god (so-called) of this world, humankind that is born seperate from God by nature and a creation that is bound to groan along until some unknown future date where we have promises of a permanently better place.
I think we may choose to believe a better place is coming. But even then, this life is all that we actually know so the promise is automatically speaking of things that can not be or is not possible now.
Personally, I can not grasp that God and satan had a conversation about Job's suffering before it began but that's what it says.
Personally, if I had a piece of work that I expected to be dear to me but others came along and mucked it up I would be hard pressed to imagine doing anything with it besides destroying my messed up work right away and starting over.
If God had done the same with a creation that wasn't just a little off, but where the main players took themselves completely out of touch with the hand of creation...
I wouldn't Be Here to either come to terms OR to beeotch about it.....
I wouldn't be here to suffer or have hope for a better future eventually.....
I wouldn't be here to either hope for the seemingly impossible OR settle for an existence without any spiritual values of any kind....
Personally, things seem unbearably bleak if all that I ever have is a few years to breathe and blink out of existence without any hope of anything better.
I can imagine a loving God allowing His creation to creak and groan on in spite of tremendous suffering in the present AS LONG AS He has something better in mind after all the wickedness, suffering, and unfairness of this life is over...At least He didn't break it down into nothingness again and start over because if He had done that I wouldn't even be here to beeotch about it.
I don't really see the point of doing this with you right now. If testimony of my belief is something you do not even see as evidence then I am somewhat limited. And if you do not wish to discuss my freely stated perspective then i am at a loss for more to say right now. Heck, I am who I say I am but this isn't even a place where I can prove that, nor would I choose to if you thought to require evidence of my identity.
Like I can prove a darn thing, not gonna happen here.
Also the sum total of your evidence that the story book is the words of a God given to men, remains nothing but a warm & fuzzy ' feeling ' you have, that this is the case, is that correct?
Cheers!
The sum total of what I am saying to you may be considered testimony I suppose. As to my more personal experiences beyond what I've already shared here at GSC, rest assured that there are many experiences that I consider entirely private in nature. My "warm & fuzzy" feelings, or any other feelings are something that I may not share. But the way you reference the substance of my beliefs is clearly insulting and so I will probably cease my part in this conversation for now.
I've attempted to follow this thread a little bit........
I'm not understanding something, however. The word "storybook".
Are you looking for the perfection stuff, the never make a mistake stuff, the exact never leave room for change or error kind of thing.
If so, I think I might get it a little bit, as I find myself on my face (almost literally) before God in some anger that has me reeling lately and I'm finally coming around to the reality the last few days, I hope. Not to mention that my almost 15 year old daughter has been asking me some really honest and difficult questions about God and people and putting the two together; most of them I can't answer for her and that's prompted me to consider 'what the hell DO I believe/think/want'. For me and me only. You don't know my children, but this one can debate! So, it's been a fantastic time of digging deep and looking long.
I guess what I'm saying, Composer, is I'm not sure I get what your question is; or comment perhaps. I do well with the straight up information, no matter if your information isn't necessarily pretty. Just trying to understand.
Incidentally, is there an outline of the PFAL class available anywhere? I'm curious about it.
Actually, there is an outline of sorts. In the PFAL syllabus there is a list of collateral reading material that accompanies each session. These include specific sections of the PFAL book, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today and Studies in Abundant Living (volumes I, II and III).
Actually, there is an outline of sorts. In the PFAL syllabus there is a list of collateral reading material that accompanies each session. These include specific sections of the PFAL book, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today and Studies in Abundant Living (volumes I, II and III).
Well, I ain't interested in reading no book(s). I was just wondering what topics were covered and in what order. I have a good idea already -- I was just wondering if anyone had an actual course outline. Or, if it is a book, the table of contents would do.
Also, how long was the PFAL class and how often did it meet?
No, I'm not going to sign a green card, I'm just curious. :)
I have spent the last 50 years studying the various religions (Mainly alleged bible text based ones)
I say ' alleged ' because under examination, what most claim is in the bible text ' isn't how they have presented it as the bases of their beliefs '. In brief, what they claim the story book (bible text) says, doesn't mean what they claim it means and the promises it makes not a single so called christian can legitimately manifest those promises already given and NONE can legitimately claim to be a genuine bible christian.
After 50 years of intense scrutiny, discussion etc because I really wanted to find out IF there was anything legitimate about these alleged ' holy Books) (especially the alleged bible based ones) I can say without doubt or equivocation that the bible text is 100% man made, man conceived and NOT the legitimate words of a God given to men.
Hence my reference to the ' story book ' of man made fantasy, for that is ALL so called Holy Books ' are.
It is great to hear the sincere questions from youngsters who have in the main not yet been corrupted by the various brainwashing methods of those religions or by parents forcing them to follow their beliefs.
I love to challenge ALL religions (I'm a successful religion buster) but unfortunately they invariably hide or run away when faced with the Truths I (and some others bring) and soon ban me from their Forums, so they can only get opinions and present comments that suit them, as they continue to deceive themselves and others that get trapped in their web of deceit and propaganda.
Fortunately however I do get frequent Private emails or PM's where some want to know more of what I have to say, but are afraid of ridicule or banning by others if they try to speak openly.
That way they are better informed and can make their more informed choices having been made ' more aware ' of the failings of their current or alternate ideologies or teachings they may have been considering changing to.
I have spent the last 50 years studying the various religions (Mainly alleged bible text based ones)
I say ' alleged ' because under examination, what most claim is in the bible text ' isn't how they have presented it as the bases of their beliefs '. In brief, what they claim the story book (bible text) says, doesn't mean what they claim it means and the promises it makes not a single so called christian can legitimately manifest those promises already given and NONE can legitimately claim to be a genuine bible christian.
After 50 years of intense scrutiny, discussion etc because I really wanted to find out IF there was anything legitimate about these alleged ' holy Books) (especially the alleged bible based ones) I can say without doubt or equivocation that the bible text is 100% man made, man conceived and NOT the legitimate words of a God given to men.
Hence my reference to the ' story book ' of man made fantasy, for that is ALL so called Holy Books ' are.
It is great to hear the sincere questions from youngsters who have in the main not yet been corrupted by the various brainwashing methods of those religions or by parents forcing them to follow their beliefs.
I love to challenge ALL religions (I'm a successful religion buster) but unfortunately they invariably hide or run away when faced with the Truths I (and some others bring) and soon ban me from their Forums, so they can only get opinions and present comments that suit them, as they continue to deceive themselves and others that get trapped in their web of deceit and propaganda.
Fortunately however I do get frequent Private emails or PM's where some want to know more of what I have to say, but are afraid of ridicule or banning by others if they try to speak openly.
That way they are better informed and can make their more informed choices having been made ' more aware ' of the failings of their current or alternate ideologies or teachings they may have been considering changing to.
Cheers!
Ok, really, I'm trying to understand here, truly. I'll drop it except to say that I do understand the young people aspect, being a mother and that of a 15 year old who is obviously searching, asking, questioning and yes it is wonderful to see her eyes when she heads for her own decisions. Also the mother of a 28 year old who is making some really bad choices and could use some of some God in my opinion (even if a fable) but who listens to their mama when they're 28?
I guess I'm stuck on the "storybook" part of this thread. So rather than keep badgering you about it, I'll move along and maybe the answer will be in here somewhere; it might already be, but I do better with as little in between stuff as possible. I'm just not clear as to what you consider "storybook" where God's love and the Bible and all that is concerned.
Pretend there is a white flag in this feller's hand I get it, the answer isn't here, no biggie, just my curious nature to want to know.
die hard...dying hard? yeah...still a jungle of that going on...an ordinary act of dying well seems like a lucky miracle...perhaps the hardness depends on the habit...some habits seem to never die...and some only seem to die.
Also, how long was the PFAL class and how often did it meet?
Technically, it was really three separate classes developed as a series.
The PFAL foundational class was divided into twelve, three hour sessions. It met four times a week for three weeks. Originally, there was an additional, one hour "teaching"/two hour "practice", session that was optional. This was unofficially called the T.I.P. (tongues, interpretation and prophesy) session. It was later scrapped for The Intermediate Class, which was three, three hour sessions, taught over one weekend. Essentially, the class did not contain any more information than the T.I.P. session. It relied heavily on practice (excellor) sessions to fluff out the time. Third in the series was a class called The Advanced Class. When I took it in 1973, it was taught in rez./on site, at Int. HQ, over a two week period.
Foundational dealt with the law of believing, the inerrancy of the Bible, administrations (ie: dispensations) Sonship Rights, the new birth, Christ in you, speaking in tongues in one's private prayer life, etc. It culminated with everyone being led into speaking in tongues at the end of session twelve.
Intermediate dealt with "tongues with interpretation" and "prophesy" (the "utterance" manifestations) within the body of the church.
Advanced dealt with "word of wisdom", "word of knowledge" and "discerning of spirits". (the revelation manifestations) In addition, it dealt with "faith" (believing), "miracles" and "gifts of healing" (the impartation manifestations).
edit: Of course, my memory "ain't" the greatest any more. Please feel free to correct my errors in remembrance.
Foundational dealt with...speaking in tongues in one's private prayer life, etc. It culminated with...speaking in tongues at the end of session twelve.
You mean I could have learned to SIT in just 12 three-hour sessions?!?
die hard...dying hard? yeah...still a jungle of that going on...an ordinary act of dying well seems like a lucky miracle...perhaps the hardness depends on the habit...some habits seem to never die...and some only seem to die.
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Shellon
Ok, really, I'm trying to understand here, truly. I'll drop it except to say that I do understand the young people aspect, being a mother and that of a 15 year old who is obviously searching, asking,
Shellon
Composer
Ok, so you are an alleged christian pastor in Haiti explaining the trinitarian God of Love? Scenario: You are trying to counsel a young man whose parents and most brothers & sisters save one sist
sirguessalot
Composer...i doubt i could satisfy your questions the way you ask them...but i hear a genuine shout underneath.
if i may ask...in all your years of searching for people to come forward and satisfy your questions, have you ever looked into fields like hospice, chaplaincy, grief-counseling? Or found somewhere caregivers go for healing?
Nurses and doctors...monks and nuns...midwives and chaplains...most all the teachers are dying or dead...and most all the students are grey and white...a lotta talk about Love in the face of Oblivion.
wondering...how is your search filter doing?
does reading a book somehow meet the same criteria as an author stepping forward to answer you?
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Composer
Could you point out ' what specifics ' you are referring to and we can discuss them?
Also the sum total of your evidence that the story book is the words of a God given to men, remains nothing but a warm & fuzzy ' feeling ' you have, that this is the case, is that correct?
Cheers!
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JeffSjo
THIS IS A COPY OF MY POST #34......
Been thinking about this one for a bit, since reading Sirgues.... in another thread.
I think the key for me to getting what seems like good footing for me in this area is the consideration of the fall of man.
Without the fall there would be no death and human suffering IMO.
With "the fall" we get death, suffering, a god (so-called) of this world, humankind that is born seperate from God by nature and a creation that is bound to groan along until some unknown future date where we have promises of a permanently better place.
I think we may choose to believe a better place is coming. But even then, this life is all that we actually know so the promise is automatically speaking of things that can not be or is not possible now.
Personally, I can not grasp that God and satan had a conversation about Job's suffering before it began but that's what it says.
Personally, if I had a piece of work that I expected to be dear to me but others came along and mucked it up I would be hard pressed to imagine doing anything with it besides destroying my messed up work right away and starting over.
If God had done the same with a creation that wasn't just a little off, but where the main players took themselves completely out of touch with the hand of creation...
I wouldn't Be Here to either come to terms OR to beeotch about it.....
I wouldn't be here to suffer or have hope for a better future eventually.....
I wouldn't be here to either hope for the seemingly impossible OR settle for an existence without any spiritual values of any kind....
Personally, things seem unbearably bleak if all that I ever have is a few years to breathe and blink out of existence without any hope of anything better.
I can imagine a loving God allowing His creation to creak and groan on in spite of tremendous suffering in the present AS LONG AS He has something better in mind after all the wickedness, suffering, and unfairness of this life is over...At least He didn't break it down into nothingness again and start over because if He had done that I wouldn't even be here to beeotch about it.
I don't really see the point of doing this with you right now. If testimony of my belief is something you do not even see as evidence then I am somewhat limited. And if you do not wish to discuss my freely stated perspective then i am at a loss for more to say right now. Heck, I am who I say I am but this isn't even a place where I can prove that, nor would I choose to if you thought to require evidence of my identity.
Like I can prove a darn thing, not gonna happen here.
The sum total of what I am saying to you may be considered testimony I suppose. As to my more personal experiences beyond what I've already shared here at GSC, rest assured that there are many experiences that I consider entirely private in nature. My "warm & fuzzy" feelings, or any other feelings are something that I may not share. But the way you reference the substance of my beliefs is clearly insulting and so I will probably cease my part in this conversation for now.
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Abigail
Is it just me, or does it seem as if Composer by and large ignores anyone he can't argue with or take a jab at, and only responds to those he can?
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waysider
I don't think it's just you.
It reminds me of how we used to push doors open to sell PLAF (The Wonder Class).
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soul searcher
Do you mean PFAL? (Just making sure this wasn't another class.)
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waysider
PLAF (Puke, Loogie And Flatulence)
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soul searcher
That's what I thought. :)
Incidentally, is there an outline of the PFAL class available anywhere? I'm curious about it.
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waysider
Sure. Just sign here on this green card. Your pen or mine?
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George Aar
Old habits die hard, don't they?
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cman
when you know how they are killed and all it's offspring
yeah, it can be hard, but needed...
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Shellon
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waysider
Actually, there is an outline of sorts. In the PFAL syllabus there is a list of collateral reading material that accompanies each session. These include specific sections of the PFAL book, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today and Studies in Abundant Living (volumes I, II and III).
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soul searcher
Well, I ain't interested in reading no book(s). I was just wondering what topics were covered and in what order. I have a good idea already -- I was just wondering if anyone had an actual course outline. Or, if it is a book, the table of contents would do.
Also, how long was the PFAL class and how often did it meet?
No, I'm not going to sign a green card, I'm just curious. :)
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Composer
Thanks Shellon,
I have spent the last 50 years studying the various religions (Mainly alleged bible text based ones)
I say ' alleged ' because under examination, what most claim is in the bible text ' isn't how they have presented it as the bases of their beliefs '. In brief, what they claim the story book (bible text) says, doesn't mean what they claim it means and the promises it makes not a single so called christian can legitimately manifest those promises already given and NONE can legitimately claim to be a genuine bible christian.
After 50 years of intense scrutiny, discussion etc because I really wanted to find out IF there was anything legitimate about these alleged ' holy Books) (especially the alleged bible based ones) I can say without doubt or equivocation that the bible text is 100% man made, man conceived and NOT the legitimate words of a God given to men.
Hence my reference to the ' story book ' of man made fantasy, for that is ALL so called Holy Books ' are.
It is great to hear the sincere questions from youngsters who have in the main not yet been corrupted by the various brainwashing methods of those religions or by parents forcing them to follow their beliefs.
I love to challenge ALL religions (I'm a successful religion buster) but unfortunately they invariably hide or run away when faced with the Truths I (and some others bring) and soon ban me from their Forums, so they can only get opinions and present comments that suit them, as they continue to deceive themselves and others that get trapped in their web of deceit and propaganda.
Fortunately however I do get frequent Private emails or PM's where some want to know more of what I have to say, but are afraid of ridicule or banning by others if they try to speak openly.
That way they are better informed and can make their more informed choices having been made ' more aware ' of the failings of their current or alternate ideologies or teachings they may have been considering changing to.
Cheers!
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Shellon
Ok, really, I'm trying to understand here, truly. I'll drop it except to say that I do understand the young people aspect, being a mother and that of a 15 year old who is obviously searching, asking, questioning and yes it is wonderful to see her eyes when she heads for her own decisions. Also the mother of a 28 year old who is making some really bad choices and could use some of some God in my opinion (even if a fable) but who listens to their mama when they're 28?
I guess I'm stuck on the "storybook" part of this thread. So rather than keep badgering you about it, I'll move along and maybe the answer will be in here somewhere; it might already be, but I do better with as little in between stuff as possible. I'm just not clear as to what you consider "storybook" where God's love and the Bible and all that is concerned.
Pretend there is a white flag in this feller's hand
I get it, the answer isn't here, no biggie, just my curious nature to want to know.
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soul searcher
Why is somebody always "minusing" Shellon? I don't get it.
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JeffSjo
I hear a genuine shout implicite in Composer's voice too Sirguessalot. But I'm not sure how deeply it resonates in Composer's heart.
I still "like it" but think I will leave this thread for the time being with my beliefs unscathed.
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sirguessalot
die hard...dying hard? yeah...still a jungle of that going on...an ordinary act of dying well seems like a lucky miracle...perhaps the hardness depends on the habit...some habits seem to never die...and some only seem to die.
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waysider
Technically, it was really three separate classes developed as a series.
The PFAL foundational class was divided into twelve, three hour sessions. It met four times a week for three weeks. Originally, there was an additional, one hour "teaching"/two hour "practice", session that was optional. This was unofficially called the T.I.P. (tongues, interpretation and prophesy) session. It was later scrapped for The Intermediate Class, which was three, three hour sessions, taught over one weekend. Essentially, the class did not contain any more information than the T.I.P. session. It relied heavily on practice (excellor) sessions to fluff out the time. Third in the series was a class called The Advanced Class. When I took it in 1973, it was taught in rez./on site, at Int. HQ, over a two week period.
Foundational dealt with the law of believing, the inerrancy of the Bible, administrations (ie: dispensations) Sonship Rights, the new birth, Christ in you, speaking in tongues in one's private prayer life, etc. It culminated with everyone being led into speaking in tongues at the end of session twelve.
Intermediate dealt with "tongues with interpretation" and "prophesy" (the "utterance" manifestations) within the body of the church.
Advanced dealt with "word of wisdom", "word of knowledge" and "discerning of spirits". (the revelation manifestations) In addition, it dealt with "faith" (believing), "miracles" and "gifts of healing" (the impartation manifestations).
edit: Of course, my memory "ain't" the greatest any more. Please feel free to correct my errors in remembrance.
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soul searcher
You mean I could have learned to SIT in just 12 three-hour sessions?!?
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cman
and still they quibble
over letters that can only come to life by
the death of what they were thought to be
the invisible things in plain sight
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geisha779
What is this fascination with death? Death is the enemy....good news is that Jesus overcame death. Take it or leave it I guess.
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cman
not a fascination with death
certainly much ignorance of it
and fear
when we are told to love our enemies
does that leave out death?
dieing and death is throughout the bible and life
perhaps learning about it's workings will reveal more then expected
we see it every year and day with changes of seasons
and plenty more
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