In a much simpler vein, how can one reconcile the supposed all-loving, all-powerful God of the New Testament and just ONE dead baby? I really don't think you can without resorting to all sorts of intellectual dishonesty. So that's what religion does. The God of The Bible isn't living up to what His book says about Him, so we have to improvise. "Well, He HAD to let that baby die or He wouldn't be a just God", "We don't know the mind of GOD, there must be a really important reason that He allowed that to happen", or the old favorite "It's all part of God's PLAN" - yada, yada. Yeah, it's pretty thin soup, but people have a lot riding on the "All-loving, Father God in the Sky" model, so we keep playing.
For me Composer raises an issue that's important and I agree with George that we've kept playing this same card handed down to us from a long Christian theological tradition.
So here are a few of my thoughts, ones that I've wrestled with for more than 20 years since leaving TWI...and a few book titles that have helped me.
I have found books like God's Problem by Bart Ehrman (who is agnostic for the very reason Composer raises and that is that if God causes suffering, then who needs that?) I agree, I can say that I am agnostic if you are referring to the kind of God depicted in the Bible.
But I do think there's something invisible that we don't understand completely. All the major religions have tried to articulate it. I've adjusted what I refer to as God as simply the creative/destructive energy that's in the world. For me, there is no God's will vs. Satan's type of theology anymore, but that's just me.
Ehrman is helpful in outlining the different sorts of depictions of "Gods" in the O.T. and the new. Marcion taught this long ago, too, saying they were two different gods altogether. I believe I have my info straight on this, but you should check if you are interested.
I think we need to remember that man's perception of God recorded in the Bible varied culture to culture, age to age. In my view, the writers used a metaphor, a word, to try and identify the energy the cause of events, etc. around them and explain things. The Bible attributes characteristics to God that are man-like, using metaphors. I think the problem is that readers of the Bible forget they are only reading metaphors (like God is our Father) and they make the metaphor the real thing. And they mistakenly say God says stuff when in actuality they are quoting the men's writings that ended up in the Bible.
For myself, the history of the idea of God is well articulated by Karen Armstrong in her book, A History of God. DEFINITELY worth checking out.
Just for kicks, I'll tell you that in 1991 I wrote a college paper for a college class on creation. For what it's worth, here is a bit from it:
"...in Theology for a Nuclear Age, Gordon D. Kaufman makes the point that metaphors from religious traditions have caused more harm than good: for instance, in the name of God as King, nations have slaughtered other peoples, claiming them as the enemies of God. "
Maybe this info is helpful to some here...perhaps food for thought anyhow...
I've thought a lot about your post penworks, well a lot for me .
I do think this is a major problem if we stay stuck in this theology.
The old thus saith the lord and he doesn't change sayings.
If that mold can be broken then there are possibilities not considered.
I suppose one can get comfortable in their own idea.
As you have pointed out with the few different Christian movements.
Of which some in history are not labeled Christian,
though Christ is central.
Perhaps the most distant, confusing and foreign idea is that God is more us then we are God.
For me when I came to understand the idea that religions are like masks for this invisible force we call God, then things made more sense. Joseph Campbell has done tons of work in this comparative religion field. Bill Moyers interviewed him in the 1980s and there's a book, The Power of Myth, which is pretty much a transcription of their conversation. I found it helpful as it points out the common ground in religions, which is pretty much the golden rule. But by their actions many times you woulnd't know that's the main idea, sadly.
I'll go out on a limb here and say I'm feeling that I'm at the stage where I feel I am part of the fabric of "god" just like everyone and everything else. Those who say Jesus is the only way to God forget that they are reading the gospel of John, written down by someone (or several sources) who heard oral traditions and decided to use that idea as a way to leverage power over other competing ideas about Jesus that were floating around at the time. This is my opinion influenced by people like Elaine Pagels in Beyond Belief, etc.
What interests me more these days is the question of consciousness. What is it? Perhas that is meant by "god." There are lots of brilliant minds working on the question that you can read. I like some (and I emphasize SOME) of the articles in the magazine, EnlightenNEXT. It's online and in print.
NOTE to Composer: I understand your frustrations with the lame explanations that God has a reason when a baby dies, for instance. They are more than lame, they are offensive and disgusting to me. At any rate, this topic is personal to me because this idea was what kicked off my search for answers in 1968 which led me to accept TWI's lame and offensive answers until I left and kept searching.
I watched my mother die when I was 16. The Catholic church told me God wanted her in heaven. I thought, why would he need her more than I do? I don't need a god like that. So, long story short, there I was in TWI brushing off this trauma with the dogma that essentially said, Oh no big deal. You'll see her again at the gathering together (if she was born again). The devil killed her not God. Something about this chills me even now. It dishonors the value of human life. But that's another topic. It makes you value only an imaginary afterlife and not pay attention to making this current life a better one.
Anyhow, I appreciate the ideas in this thread but I would caution Composer in two ways: first, try and write your posts with more respect for us who read them. We are people like you, we have feelings, and we might be smarter than you think, so give us some credit before putting us down. Put yourself in our shoes for a minute before posting and ranting - think about how your posts might be received...if the goal is genuine inquiry, a respectful tone can be communicated I think, even inspite of the shortcomings of this way of dialogue - typed words on a screen. Secondly, before you call the Bible a story book in a derogatory way, think about how sacred it is to some people...try and get some more information about just what it is and its history. That can make your critiques of it more readily accepted...at least perhaps more people will listen to your core ideas like how awful it is to tell suffering people God loves them and has a reason for their suffering, which have value to some of us who share them.
What helps me in this ecounter at GSC is to try and get some perspective on how emotional I might be feeling at the time I type. If I'm too intense, I try and wait to post until later. I ain't perfect at this but I am trying to be more aware...religious ideas seem to be inherently emotionally charged for lots of people...
Been thinking about this one for a bit, since reading Sirgues.... in another thread.
I think the key for me to getting what seems like good footing for me in this area is the consideration of the fall of man.
Without the fall there would be no death and human suffering IMO.
With "the fall" we get death, suffering, a god (so-called) of this world, humankind that is born seperate from God by nature and a creation that is bound to groan along until some unknown future date where we have promises of a permanently better place.
I think we may choose to believe a better place is coming. But even then, this life is all that we actually know so the promise is automatically speaking of things that can not be or is not possible now.
Personally, I can not grasp that God and satan had a conversation about Job's suffering before it began but that's what it says.
Personally, if I had a piece of work that I expected to be dear to me but others came along and mucked it up I would be hard pressed to imagine doing anything with it besides destroying my messed up work right away and starting over.
If God had done the same with a creation that wasn't just a little off, but where the main players took themselves completely out of touch with the hand of creation...
I wouldn't Be Here to either come to terms OR to beeotch about it.....
I wouldn't be here to suffer or have hope for a better future eventually.....
I wouldn't be here to either hope for the seemingly impossible OR settle for an existence without any spiritual values of any kind....
Personally, things seem unbearably bleak if all that I ever have is a few years to breathe and blink out of existence without any hope of anything better.
I can imagine a loving God allowing His creation to creak and groan on in spite of tremendous suffering in the present AS LONG AS He has something better in mind after all the wickedness, suffering, and unfairness of this life is over...At least He didn't break it down into nothingness again and start over because if He had done that I wouldn't even be here to beeotch about it.
Since we are blaming God for all the evil in the world...it only seems fitting we then credit and praise Him for all the beauty and good....
WE...Really Geisha?
I'm thinking about some hard questions asked by someone who seems very sincere in his/her beliefs.
And whether or not anything changes for Composer I don't mind the consideration and I am not blaming God, but do acknowledge that God is aware of each and every bit of the evil in the world. I believe in the plan I read about too, it's just that it is not a clear picture either, you know.
But on a lighter note, as a guy I have to say that not all that is beautiful is of God either..... :B)
I'm thinking about some hard questions asked by someone who seems very sincere in his/her beliefs.
And whether or not anything changes for Composer I don't mind the consideration and I am not blaming God, but do acknowledge that God is aware of each and every bit of the evil in the world. I believe in the plan I read about too, it's just that it is not a clear picture either, you know.
But on a lighter note, as a guy I have to say that not all that is beautiful is of God either..... :B)
No putting you in any place you don't want to go is intended Geisha, really.
But after reading how "we are blaming God for all the evil in the world..." I felt it necessary to point out that it is not my intent to do so.
I think that in The Way we were too often "handled" by leadership whose intentions really were to "put us in our place" and I don't like it either.
But here I don't see why me clarifying my intentions need to be considered as such to you.
Interesting thought...
Like what?
Are you thinking, like, certain women, maybe? Certain music? Certain substances?
Yeah, the light part of my post was intended as a toungue-in-cheek reference to a pretty women, but even as I said it I was certain that many women would rightly say the very same thing about certain guys.
I think that biblically there are many references to things that seem attractive to us but are no good for us Soul Searcher, and in all seriousness I think it goes far beyond my questionable attempt at a lighter moment as to it being a worthy consideration.
Yeah, the light part of my post was intended as a toungue-in-cheek reference to a pretty women, but even as I said it I was certain that many women would rightly say the very same thing about certain guys.
Over the past year, I have been thinking of a certain pretty woman I know as either a devil or an angel, depending on my mood. I can't decide which. (I believe that's a song, "Devil or Angel".)
It's hard to tell sometimes, if something (or someone) is really good for you.
I guess if you have to question it, it's not.
It's hard to tell, too, when your love's in vain. (That's also a song.)
Over the past year, I have been thinking of a certain pretty woman I know as either a devil or an angel, depending on my mood. I can't decide which. (I believe that's a song, "Devil or Angel".)
"Depending on my mood"..... That struck me as funny right now Soul Searcher because I do that sometimes too.
Like my mood has any real effect on what someone is or isn't. hehehe
I think people are generally capable of doing and/or being good, bad, or both. The extent of either will vary widely and uniquely with all of us.
But even if I risk a joke about it all, I have been on the uuuugly side of being labled and wouldn't wish that kind of false label and the consequences on an enemy.
On the other hand, I do believe that some people are set on doing evil and may deserve it if someone refers to them as a "devil." But I' guess I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt until their own actions erase my unceratainty, y'know?
On the other hand, I do believe that some people are set on doing evil and may deserve it if someone refers to them as a "devil." But I' guess I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt until their own actions erase my unceratainty, y'know?
I do know. You're absolutely right. I was kidding around. She's actually a sweetheart, although she might have used more discretion at times.
The fact that I'm weak and stupid didn't help matters.
Maybe someday I'll tell the sad and pathetic saga.
But personally, I don't think you are or have been any weaker or stupider than any of the rest of us. Comparring just to myself, I don't think it's possible. :o
Ok so we are now along to Page 3 and the legitimate and overwhelming evidence that this God ' loves us ' remains at zero?
The legitimate evidence that it is a monster that causes / doesn't prevent atrocities, rapes, murders, diseases, ailments, amputees, disasters (earthquakes, tsunami's, plagues, drought etc.)
The story book alleged trinitarian monster of a God is even worse by its lies and hypocrisy, including interfering to save Isaac and save itself as a baby Jesus godman person, from Herod's men, but was nowhere to be found to save Abel nor to save the other babes slaughtered by Herod's men.
Ok so we are now along to Page 3 and the legitimate and overwhelming evidence that this God ' loves us ' remains at zero?
The legitimate evidence that it is a monster that causes / doesn't prevent atrocities, rapes, murders, diseases, ailments, amputees, disasters (earthquakes, tsunami's, plagues, drought etc.)
The story book alleged trinitarian monster of a God is even worse by its lies and hypocrisy, including interfering to save Isaac and save itself as a baby Jesus godman person, from Herod's men, but was nowhere to be found to save Abel nor to save the other babes slaughtered by Herod's men.
Well Composer,
Personally I could wish you would respond directly to some of the reasoning that myself or others shared with you on this thread. But because the Greasespot is an open forum and all, nothing requires you to do so.
No matter what our personal references are for relating to this life I think it is ok that both you and I can acknowledge that some things that happen are ugly and monstrous. Some of my fellow Christians seem unable to deal with ugly and monstrous honestly, but being human and all themselves I wouldn't take it upon myself to shove there noses in uuuugly and say, "Look at it" or anything. Life itself has a way of making us face the uuugly things in it's own time.
And whether or not my intentions seem unwise to you I can't help but wish that someday you would find/"be led into" a world view that would honestly allow you to Love God. But it seems for the present time that there is not a darn thing I can do to offer you the kind of proof you seem to be looking for.
Heck, I'm not even sure you would change your mind if offered proof but I can not.
And for the record, among bible believing folks, some people seem unable to change there mind when offered convincing scriptural proof. God only knows how many times I might have fallen into the same folly though, so I try to hold back on certain judgements, y'know.
Personally I could wish you would respond directly to some of the reasoning that myself or others shared with you on this thread. But because the Greasespot is an open forum and all, nothing requires you to do so.
No matter what our personal references are for relating to this life I think it is ok that both you and I can acknowledge that some things that happen are ugly and monstrous. Some of my fellow Christians seem unable to deal with ugly and monstrous honestly, but being human and all themselves I wouldn't take it upon myself to shove there noses in uuuugly and say, "Look at it" or anything. Life itself has a way of making us face the uuugly things in it's own time.
And whether or not my intentions seem unwise to you I can't help but wish that someday you would find/"be led into" a world view that would honestly allow you to Love God. But it seems for the present time that there is not a darn thing I can do to offer you the kind of proof you seem to be looking for.
Heck, I'm not even sure you would change your mind if offered proof but I can not.
And for the record, among bible believing folks, some people seem unable to change there mind when offered convincing scriptural proof. God only knows how many times I might have fallen into the same folly though, so I try to hold back on certain judgements, y'know.
Thanks for that.
I have been searching earnestly for 50 years and not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward.
I agree with you that many of them when faced with the reality I present they prefer to cling to their story book ideology. Like a crutch that doesn't legitimately support them but they keep using it regardless?
Many form also a social network among other story book believers and they prefer that make believe world they manufactured for themselves rather than the cruel and sadistic world this (I call) Intelligent Designer (God for want of a better word) has created, bringing misery, suffering, pain, diseases, earthquakes, tsunamis, amputees, physical cruelty, blindness etc. etc. for many and yet so called christians keep bleating about their ' God of Love ' which is in reality a misnomer and the evidence it does ' Love its creation ' is virtually non-existent.
I've attempted to follow this thread a little bit........
I'm not understanding something, however. The word "storybook".
Are you looking for the perfection stuff, the never make a mistake stuff, the exact never leave room for change or error kind of thing.
If so, I think I might get it a little bit, as I find myself on my face (almost literally) before God in some anger that has me reeling lately and I'm finally coming around to the reality the last few days, I hope. Not to mention that my almost 15 year old daughter has been asking me some really honest and difficult questions about God and people and putting the two together; most of them I can't answer for her and that's prompted me to consider 'what the hell DO I believe/think/want'. For me and me only. You don't know my children, but this one can debate! So, it's been a fantastic time of digging deep and looking long.
I guess what I'm saying, Composer, is I'm not sure I get what your question is; or comment perhaps. I do well with the straight up information, no matter if your information isn't necessarily pretty. Just trying to understand.
I have been searching earnestly for 50 years and not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward" at all composer. But for the record, while I try to remain open to explore new concepts and view points I don't exactly have a habit of backing down from aggressive people.
I think you are free to think of us "storybook" types as you will. Since I don't consider the Bible a simple story book I have become use to letting people hold their own opinions, and like I said before, my plate sometimes seems full with reasoning with others who say they take the scriptures more seriously than you do and sorting out my own "Way International" history.
I agree with you that many of them when faced with the reality I present they prefer to cling to their story book ideology. Like a crutch that doesn't legitimately support them but they keep using it regardless?
"Reality" is easily confuse with "persective" IMO.
My "perspective" as concerning scripture easily handles your "reality" but is at odds with your "perspective."
And as I expressed before, I generally speaking don't choose to force people to look at ugly realities, they will have to soon enough as long as they keep breathing. The single notable exeption as it pertains to reality here at The Greasespot is that many of us are in various stages of recognizing "The Way" for what it really was and I see great potential for good in that realization, but it is still not anything with which I take any kind of glee in and constantly hope to find a good balance between reality and care for the individual.
But as concerning the folks who have been hurt the worst I can feel downright angy. Sometimes for even just the possible benefit of comforting their hearts I will as some say, go to far. But from my persective as their hurts are real and the damage has been devastating to many I mostly worry about not having gone far enough.
Why is it composer, that you are aggressive? What motivates you to say such things as a persons beliefs are insufficient? I give you credit for your own right to reason but you are repeatedly insulting, why?
Many form also a social network among other story book believers and they prefer that make believe world they manufactured for themselves rather than the cruel and sadistic world this (I call) Intelligent Designer (God for want of a better word) has created, bringing misery, suffering, pain, diseases, earthquakes, tsunamis, amputees, physical cruelty, blindness etc. etc. for many and yet so called christians keep bleating about their ' God of Love ' which is in reality a misnomer and the evidence it does ' Love its creation ' is virtually non-existent.
You have every right to think that even though I disagree. If you wish to continue thinking so it is your right.
If you wish to take up my biblical views as I have posted them already you are free to do so. I suspect we will still disagree if you go that route.
But if you wish to describe my words as "bleating" along with your many implications of logical breakdowns and insufficiency as concerning Christians I will end up not backing down to you I assure you.
And from my perspective as you choose to hold onto your insults without taking up the specifics of my previous post you are just another person with a stong opinion without the cohones to take on a particular opposing viewpoint with reason and/or logic youself....HHHmmmm...Isn't that exactly what you accuse us Christians of being?
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Shellon
Ok, really, I'm trying to understand here, truly. I'll drop it except to say that I do understand the young people aspect, being a mother and that of a 15 year old who is obviously searching, asking,
Shellon
Composer
Ok, so you are an alleged christian pastor in Haiti explaining the trinitarian God of Love? Scenario: You are trying to counsel a young man whose parents and most brothers & sisters save one sist
cman
he's laying it at our feet Geo
not willing to do what it takes himself
and harassing those that he knows nothing about
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer
Maybe you should listen to what George Aar is telling you
the earth has warning signs
but we must learn to hear them
but they do not listen it not God or the earth we blame
it life itself because clean off itself so more life use it
people die everyday and I cry them I have the power to creative only God has that power
I eat plants life everyday but i do not blame the plants because i'm hungry
it part of God the cycle of life
God is the creation begin all things we known and do not known
while you blame God what foolish thinking you have with basic for truth
to blame anything is foolishness
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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penworks
For me Composer raises an issue that's important and I agree with George that we've kept playing this same card handed down to us from a long Christian theological tradition.
So here are a few of my thoughts, ones that I've wrestled with for more than 20 years since leaving TWI...and a few book titles that have helped me.
I have found books like God's Problem by Bart Ehrman (who is agnostic for the very reason Composer raises and that is that if God causes suffering, then who needs that?) I agree, I can say that I am agnostic if you are referring to the kind of God depicted in the Bible.
But I do think there's something invisible that we don't understand completely. All the major religions have tried to articulate it. I've adjusted what I refer to as God as simply the creative/destructive energy that's in the world. For me, there is no God's will vs. Satan's type of theology anymore, but that's just me.
Ehrman is helpful in outlining the different sorts of depictions of "Gods" in the O.T. and the new. Marcion taught this long ago, too, saying they were two different gods altogether. I believe I have my info straight on this, but you should check if you are interested.
I think we need to remember that man's perception of God recorded in the Bible varied culture to culture, age to age. In my view, the writers used a metaphor, a word, to try and identify the energy the cause of events, etc. around them and explain things. The Bible attributes characteristics to God that are man-like, using metaphors. I think the problem is that readers of the Bible forget they are only reading metaphors (like God is our Father) and they make the metaphor the real thing. And they mistakenly say God says stuff when in actuality they are quoting the men's writings that ended up in the Bible.
For myself, the history of the idea of God is well articulated by Karen Armstrong in her book, A History of God. DEFINITELY worth checking out.
Just for kicks, I'll tell you that in 1991 I wrote a college paper for a college class on creation. For what it's worth, here is a bit from it:
"...in Theology for a Nuclear Age, Gordon D. Kaufman makes the point that metaphors from religious traditions have caused more harm than good: for instance, in the name of God as King, nations have slaughtered other peoples, claiming them as the enemies of God. "
Maybe this info is helpful to some here...perhaps food for thought anyhow...
Peace,
Pen
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cman
I've thought a lot about your post penworks, well a lot for me :).
I do think this is a major problem if we stay stuck in this theology.
The old thus saith the lord and he doesn't change sayings.
If that mold can be broken then there are possibilities not considered.
I suppose one can get comfortable in their own idea.
As you have pointed out with the few different Christian movements.
Of which some in history are not labeled Christian,
though Christ is central.
Perhaps the most distant, confusing and foreign idea is that God is more us then we are God.
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year2027
God first
thanks Penworks
I been seeing things like as a metaphor for long time now
while I do not agree with way Composer tries show it in that part he is right
so are the atheists i know
creation/destructive energy could better be called creation/destroy-life/death
but is what it all about
every side to a thing
like when I called it Serpent/God or God/Serpent
But bible is a book is nothing but book so the is a truth/lie
the man kind could metaphor about God and the Serpent
thinking keeps us understand good and evil or love and hate
in that we can make our own mind about things
because believe that we will changed/evolve/transformation/become more we are now/become less than we are now
but I do not understand it all right now
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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penworks
For me when I came to understand the idea that religions are like masks for this invisible force we call God, then things made more sense. Joseph Campbell has done tons of work in this comparative religion field. Bill Moyers interviewed him in the 1980s and there's a book, The Power of Myth, which is pretty much a transcription of their conversation. I found it helpful as it points out the common ground in religions, which is pretty much the golden rule. But by their actions many times you woulnd't know that's the main idea, sadly.
I'll go out on a limb here and say I'm feeling that I'm at the stage where I feel I am part of the fabric of "god" just like everyone and everything else. Those who say Jesus is the only way to God forget that they are reading the gospel of John, written down by someone (or several sources) who heard oral traditions and decided to use that idea as a way to leverage power over other competing ideas about Jesus that were floating around at the time. This is my opinion influenced by people like Elaine Pagels in Beyond Belief, etc.
What interests me more these days is the question of consciousness. What is it? Perhas that is meant by "god." There are lots of brilliant minds working on the question that you can read. I like some (and I emphasize SOME) of the articles in the magazine, EnlightenNEXT. It's online and in print.
NOTE to Composer: I understand your frustrations with the lame explanations that God has a reason when a baby dies, for instance. They are more than lame, they are offensive and disgusting to me. At any rate, this topic is personal to me because this idea was what kicked off my search for answers in 1968 which led me to accept TWI's lame and offensive answers until I left and kept searching.
I watched my mother die when I was 16. The Catholic church told me God wanted her in heaven. I thought, why would he need her more than I do? I don't need a god like that. So, long story short, there I was in TWI brushing off this trauma with the dogma that essentially said, Oh no big deal. You'll see her again at the gathering together (if she was born again). The devil killed her not God. Something about this chills me even now. It dishonors the value of human life. But that's another topic. It makes you value only an imaginary afterlife and not pay attention to making this current life a better one.
Anyhow, I appreciate the ideas in this thread but I would caution Composer in two ways: first, try and write your posts with more respect for us who read them. We are people like you, we have feelings, and we might be smarter than you think, so give us some credit before putting us down. Put yourself in our shoes for a minute before posting and ranting - think about how your posts might be received...if the goal is genuine inquiry, a respectful tone can be communicated I think, even inspite of the shortcomings of this way of dialogue - typed words on a screen. Secondly, before you call the Bible a story book in a derogatory way, think about how sacred it is to some people...try and get some more information about just what it is and its history. That can make your critiques of it more readily accepted...at least perhaps more people will listen to your core ideas like how awful it is to tell suffering people God loves them and has a reason for their suffering, which have value to some of us who share them.
What helps me in this ecounter at GSC is to try and get some perspective on how emotional I might be feeling at the time I type. If I'm too intense, I try and wait to post until later. I ain't perfect at this but I am trying to be more aware...religious ideas seem to be inherently emotionally charged for lots of people...
Hope this is useful. If not, there's file 13.
Cheers,
Pen
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cman
they can also be a catalyst as well, at least some I've encountered
that I like, and worth exploring even further in my opinion....
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JeffSjo
Been thinking about this one for a bit, since reading Sirgues.... in another thread.
I think the key for me to getting what seems like good footing for me in this area is the consideration of the fall of man.
Without the fall there would be no death and human suffering IMO.
With "the fall" we get death, suffering, a god (so-called) of this world, humankind that is born seperate from God by nature and a creation that is bound to groan along until some unknown future date where we have promises of a permanently better place.
I think we may choose to believe a better place is coming. But even then, this life is all that we actually know so the promise is automatically speaking of things that can not be or is not possible now.
Personally, I can not grasp that God and satan had a conversation about Job's suffering before it began but that's what it says.
Personally, if I had a piece of work that I expected to be dear to me but others came along and mucked it up I would be hard pressed to imagine doing anything with it besides destroying my messed up work right away and starting over.
If God had done the same with a creation that wasn't just a little off, but where the main players took themselves completely out of touch with the hand of creation...
I wouldn't Be Here to either come to terms OR to beeotch about it.....
I wouldn't be here to suffer or have hope for a better future eventually.....
I wouldn't be here to either hope for the seemingly impossible OR settle for an existence without any spiritual values of any kind....
Personally, things seem unbearably bleak if all that I ever have is a few years to breathe and blink out of existence without any hope of anything better.
I can imagine a loving God allowing His creation to creak and groan on in spite of tremendous suffering in the present AS LONG AS He has something better in mind after all the wickedness, suffering, and unfairness of this life is over...At least He didn't break it down into nothingness again and start over because if He had done that I wouldn't even be here to beeotch about it.
(edited in an attempt at clarification)
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geisha779
Since we are blaming God for all the evil in the world...it only seems fitting we then credit and praise Him for all the beauty and good....
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Oakspear
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JeffSjo
WE...Really Geisha?
I'm thinking about some hard questions asked by someone who seems very sincere in his/her beliefs.
And whether or not anything changes for Composer I don't mind the consideration and I am not blaming God, but do acknowledge that God is aware of each and every bit of the evil in the world. I believe in the plan I read about too, it's just that it is not a clear picture either, you know.
But on a lighter note, as a guy I have to say that not all that is beautiful is of God either..... :B)
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geisha779
I guess you put me in my place Jeff...well done!
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soul searcher
Interesting thought...
Like what?
Are you thinking, like, certain women, maybe? Certain music? Certain substances?
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JeffSjo
No putting you in any place you don't want to go is intended Geisha, really.
But after reading how "we are blaming God for all the evil in the world..." I felt it necessary to point out that it is not my intent to do so.
I think that in The Way we were too often "handled" by leadership whose intentions really were to "put us in our place" and I don't like it either.
But here I don't see why me clarifying my intentions need to be considered as such to you.
Yeah, the light part of my post was intended as a toungue-in-cheek reference to a pretty women, but even as I said it I was certain that many women would rightly say the very same thing about certain guys.
I think that biblically there are many references to things that seem attractive to us but are no good for us Soul Searcher, and in all seriousness I think it goes far beyond my questionable attempt at a lighter moment as to it being a worthy consideration.
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soul searcher
Over the past year, I have been thinking of a certain pretty woman I know as either a devil or an angel, depending on my mood. I can't decide which. (I believe that's a song, "Devil or Angel".)
It's hard to tell sometimes, if something (or someone) is really good for you.
I guess if you have to question it, it's not.
It's hard to tell, too, when your love's in vain. (That's also a song.)
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JeffSjo
"Depending on my mood".....
That struck me as funny right now Soul Searcher because I do that sometimes too.
Like my mood has any real effect on what someone is or isn't. hehehe
I think people are generally capable of doing and/or being good, bad, or both. The extent of either will vary widely and uniquely with all of us.
But even if I risk a joke about it all, I have been on the uuuugly side of being labled and wouldn't wish that kind of false label and the consequences on an enemy.
On the other hand, I do believe that some people are set on doing evil and may deserve it if someone refers to them as a "devil." But I' guess I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt until their own actions erase my unceratainty, y'know?
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soul searcher
I do know. You're absolutely right. I was kidding around. She's actually a sweetheart, although she might have used more discretion at times.
The fact that I'm weak and stupid didn't help matters.
Maybe someday I'll tell the sad and pathetic saga.
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JeffSjo
I'll look forward to it then. :)
But personally, I don't think you are or have been any weaker or stupider than any of the rest of us. Comparring just to myself, I don't think it's possible.
:o
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Composer
Ok so we are now along to Page 3 and the legitimate and overwhelming evidence that this God ' loves us ' remains at zero?
The legitimate evidence that it is a monster that causes / doesn't prevent atrocities, rapes, murders, diseases, ailments, amputees, disasters (earthquakes, tsunami's, plagues, drought etc.)
The story book alleged trinitarian monster of a God is even worse by its lies and hypocrisy, including interfering to save Isaac and save itself as a baby Jesus godman person, from Herod's men, but was nowhere to be found to save Abel nor to save the other babes slaughtered by Herod's men.
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JeffSjo
Well Composer,
Personally I could wish you would respond directly to some of the reasoning that myself or others shared with you on this thread. But because the Greasespot is an open forum and all, nothing requires you to do so.
No matter what our personal references are for relating to this life I think it is ok that both you and I can acknowledge that some things that happen are ugly and monstrous. Some of my fellow Christians seem unable to deal with ugly and monstrous honestly, but being human and all themselves I wouldn't take it upon myself to shove there noses in uuuugly and say, "Look at it" or anything. Life itself has a way of making us face the uuugly things in it's own time.
And whether or not my intentions seem unwise to you I can't help but wish that someday you would find/"be led into" a world view that would honestly allow you to Love God. But it seems for the present time that there is not a darn thing I can do to offer you the kind of proof you seem to be looking for.
Heck, I'm not even sure you would change your mind if offered proof but I can not.
And for the record, among bible believing folks, some people seem unable to change there mind when offered convincing scriptural proof. God only knows how many times I might have fallen into the same folly though, so I try to hold back on certain judgements, y'know.
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Composer
Thanks for that.
I have been searching earnestly for 50 years and not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward.
I agree with you that many of them when faced with the reality I present they prefer to cling to their story book ideology. Like a crutch that doesn't legitimately support them but they keep using it regardless?
Many form also a social network among other story book believers and they prefer that make believe world they manufactured for themselves rather than the cruel and sadistic world this (I call) Intelligent Designer (God for want of a better word) has created, bringing misery, suffering, pain, diseases, earthquakes, tsunamis, amputees, physical cruelty, blindness etc. etc. for many and yet so called christians keep bleating about their ' God of Love ' which is in reality a misnomer and the evidence it does ' Love its creation ' is virtually non-existent.
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Shellon
I've attempted to follow this thread a little bit........
I'm not understanding something, however. The word "storybook".
Are you looking for the perfection stuff, the never make a mistake stuff, the exact never leave room for change or error kind of thing.
If so, I think I might get it a little bit, as I find myself on my face (almost literally) before God in some anger that has me reeling lately and I'm finally coming around to the reality the last few days, I hope. Not to mention that my almost 15 year old daughter has been asking me some really honest and difficult questions about God and people and putting the two together; most of them I can't answer for her and that's prompted me to consider 'what the hell DO I believe/think/want'. For me and me only. You don't know my children, but this one can debate! So, it's been a fantastic time of digging deep and looking long.
I guess what I'm saying, Composer, is I'm not sure I get what your question is; or comment perhaps. I do well with the straight up information, no matter if your information isn't necessarily pretty. Just trying to understand.
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JeffSjo
You are welcome.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not one genuine story book christian has stepped forward" at all composer. But for the record, while I try to remain open to explore new concepts and view points I don't exactly have a habit of backing down from aggressive people.
I think you are free to think of us "storybook" types as you will. Since I don't consider the Bible a simple story book I have become use to letting people hold their own opinions, and like I said before, my plate sometimes seems full with reasoning with others who say they take the scriptures more seriously than you do and sorting out my own "Way International" history.
"Reality" is easily confuse with "persective" IMO.
My "perspective" as concerning scripture easily handles your "reality" but is at odds with your "perspective."
And as I expressed before, I generally speaking don't choose to force people to look at ugly realities, they will have to soon enough as long as they keep breathing. The single notable exeption as it pertains to reality here at The Greasespot is that many of us are in various stages of recognizing "The Way" for what it really was and I see great potential for good in that realization, but it is still not anything with which I take any kind of glee in and constantly hope to find a good balance between reality and care for the individual.
But as concerning the folks who have been hurt the worst I can feel downright angy. Sometimes for even just the possible benefit of comforting their hearts I will as some say, go to far. But from my persective as their hurts are real and the damage has been devastating to many I mostly worry about not having gone far enough.
Why is it composer, that you are aggressive? What motivates you to say such things as a persons beliefs are insufficient? I give you credit for your own right to reason but you are repeatedly insulting, why?
You have every right to think that even though I disagree. If you wish to continue thinking so it is your right.
If you wish to take up my biblical views as I have posted them already you are free to do so. I suspect we will still disagree if you go that route.
But if you wish to describe my words as "bleating" along with your many implications of logical breakdowns and insufficiency as concerning Christians I will end up not backing down to you I assure you.
And from my perspective as you choose to hold onto your insults without taking up the specifics of my previous post you are just another person with a stong opinion without the cohones to take on a particular opposing viewpoint with reason and/or logic youself....HHHmmmm...Isn't that exactly what you accuse us Christians of being?
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George Aar
If I may digress for just a moment. I noticed this in the news this morning, along with the tag line that the lone survivor was a "miracle".
http://pacificeyewitness.com/2010/05/12/breaking-plane-crash-in-libya-kills-103-passengers-one-survivor/
One wonders how miraculous it was for the other 103 passengers...
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