Story book God's alleged ' love '

[Composer]

Ok, so you are an alleged christian pastor in Haiti explaining the trinitarian God of Love?

Scenario: You are trying to counsel a young man whose parents and most brothers & sisters save one sister have been entirely wiped out by the Haitian earthquake. The surviving brothers he is informed were sold by criminals into sex paedophile slavery or for body parts to wealthy europeans. The young man himself had been buried for 10 days and his fractures and wounds have become septic and his legs and one arm now amputated and he is now blinded by head trauma. You then advise him that one of his sisters did survive for a few days after being rescued, but machetti wielding criminal survivors having escaped from the prisons that collapsed with the earthquake, found her with a bottle of water given to her by a passing soldier, so they raped her, cut her to pieces and stole her bottle of water.

But ' hey ' Jesus loves you buddy!

Facts -

f1. Criminals raping Haiti earthquake survivors, says police chief Ruth Morris and Clarens Renois From: AFP January 29, 2010 3:30PM

A man wearing a T-shirt with an image of US President Barack Obama gestures as he walks at a damaged area in Port-au-Prince. Picture: Reuters Source: Reuters

BANDITS are preying on Haiti earthquake survivors, even raping women, in camps set up after the disaster.

"With the blackout that's befallen the Haitian capital, bandits are taking advantage to harass and rape women and young girls under the tents," Haiti police chief Mario Andresol told reporters.

"We have more than 7000 detainees in the streets who escaped from the National Penitentiary the evening of the earthquake... It took us five years to apprehend them. Today they are running wild."

Rachelle Dolce, who is living at large makeshift camp on the Petionville Club Golf Course, said she thought a rape had occurred outside her tent the previous night. She said she heard men making noise and a woman struggling.

"I heard a fight outside, and I saw panties on the ground," she said. "I started to shout a lot, and they left."

Figures for the number of crimes were not available but women's organisations have already detailed a number of cases and alerted the United Nations mission in Haiti, Mr Andresol said.

His warning came a day after UN human rights chief Navi Pillay said that gangsters and child traffickers could try to exploit the chaos triggered by Haiti's devastating earthquake to step up their criminal activities.

The January 12 earthquake killed around 170,000 people and left more than a million others homeless, many of whom are living in makeshift camps in the ruined capital.

Security was tenuous in Haiti before the 7.0-magnitude quake, but Andresol said the police force itself had been crippled by the disaster.

Mr Andresol said the Haitian police force had only 8,000 members before the quake and that many of them were now dead or missing, adding that a large number of the remaining officers were demoralised or traumatised.

"We lost 70 police officers, nearly 500 are still missing and 400 were wounded," he said at a temporary office standing in for the capital's police headquarters, which collapsed in the quake.

The deputy head of the UN Stabilisation Mission in Haiti, Anthony Banbury, said that desperate survivors waiting in line for the trickle of foreign aid reaching Haiti were sometimes turning violent.

"It attracts big crowds and there can be disorder around the food distribution so it's absolutely necessary that we get enough food, enough water, enough shelter for the people, and enough security," he said.

At the Champ de Mars tent camp that skirts the crumpled National Palace, displaced earthquake survivors said government security was virtually absent.

"At night, people take things," said Omen Cola, as she washed a blouse in basin made from a cut-off plastic container. "But I don't have a problem. I don't have anything to steal."

Residents said they largely fended for themselves, gathering their meagre belongings into a pile at night and sleeping beside them to guard against theft.

In corners of the sprawling camp, youths said they were banding together to protect their possessions -- bags of clothes, chickens, car batteries -- and to collect garbage into piles to be burned.

But this raised fears, too, that the bands might fight among themselves.

Tina Irisia, 45, said youths from outside the camp had come by shouting that a tsunami was on the way. When people fled, she said, they stole whatever they could get their hands on.

"I don't feel safe. But I don't have anywhere else to go," Ms Irisia said as she sliced green peppers in a pan.

"Only Jesus Christ is watching over us," said Mariana Merise, 40, a neighbour. (Composer adds, notice how this woman remarks how this story book Jesus sits back and watches it all unfold and did nothing to prevent it in the first place?)

The chaos left by the quake has also raised fears that vulnerable children could fall prey to human traffickers. The UN said last week that a number have gone missing from hospitals in Haiti.

The US State Department said on Thursday it was working with Haiti's government on efforts to crack down on trafficking.

It was "actively involved in addressing the potential for trafficking in persons, particularly children, in post-earthquake Haiti," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said in a statement.

So let's all hear more about this ' God of Love ' shall we?

Facts are that Satan believers should be turning to their Satan to lead the world because at least it doesn't cause the death and misery their God does.

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

Sometimes loving them is always not about telling about Jesus no matter who man was

it about helping them

there time to tell later

I sure christian are just helping

No ask is where is money

whether a person loves God is not the need

getting them help is

but was wrote to help it was wrote why?

what have giving to help?

there been enough talk

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited April 22, 2010 by year2027

[Composer]

God first

thanks Composer

Sometimes loving them is always not about telling about Jesus no matter who man was

it about helping them

there time to tell later

I sure christian are just helping

No ask is where is money

whether a person loves God is not the need

getting them help is

but was wrote to help it was wrote why?

what have giving to help?

there been enough talk

with love and a holy kiss Roy

IF this god was a truly unconditionally loving god and father to its creation that so called christians claim it to be it wouldn't have allowed the circumstances to prevail in Haiti or any where else in the first place.

The facts are that this god is not the unconditionally loving story book god that so called christians claim it to be.

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

God teaching us good by the bad that happens to us

Bad things and good things happen it a world with good and evil in it

but what have you done personal

have given all that you can

or do use your for what you want

you wanted me help but have you

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited April 22, 2010 by year2027

[Bolshevik]

wow, you even stopped to point out god is a trinitarian . . . clearly . . . the source of his evil.

[Composer]

God first

thanks Composer

God teaching us good by the bad that happens to us

Bad things and good things happen it a world with good and evil in it

but what have you done personal

have given all that you can

or do use your for what you want

you wanted me help but have you

with love and a holy kiss Roy

What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the female survivors learned from being raped and then murdered by marauding criminals?

What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the orphaned children will learn from being sold as sex slaves in to paedophile rings by these escaped 7000 criminals?

What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the orther orphaned children that were sold off for body parts would learn from their experiences?

What alleged ' good ' do you suggest the resulting amputees crushed in the earthquake would learn and their starving families that did survive with not only no home or food, but also a cripple to fend for that is unable to work and provide its share to the remaining group?

What alleged ' good ' did the 250,000 killed in Haiti learn?

Considering self proclaimed christians claim their God is so ' loving ' the evidence provided to sustain that is almost non existent?

Edited April 29, 2010 by Composer

[Abigail]

Composer,

It strikes me from reading your posts that you are struggling with your relationship with your God. You can claim you only believe in ID, and not a God of the Bible, but I think you protest too much for that to be entirely true.

I am not Christian, so your posts don't necessarily offend me as much as they may some of the others here. But, I can't help but wonder are you truly trying to persuade them that their beliefs are wrong? Or somewhere deep inside are you truly praying and hoping they will persuade you to their POV?

Something must have hurt you very deeply for you to be this angry. Most of us here on this forum can relate to that, having done our time in TWI and experienced the great disillusion that followed our exodus from the cult.

[soul searcher]

So let's all hear more about this ' God of Love ' shall we?

I'm curious, are you making a back-handed pitch for the "Idiom of Permission" doctrine (i.e., that God is NOT in control on this earth)?

Edited April 29, 2010 by soul searcher

[sirguessalot]

Composer's questions seem quite valid to me...a bit jagged...and blunted...but certainly an expression of the other edge of the sword.

...one that faith must deal with in order to become as wise as it claims to be...which involves actually resolving such ageless unresolvable kinds of paradox...something reason is also clearly unable to do on its own.

...the kind of wisdom where answers that don't abandon scripture or reason may be just as challenging as the original questions.

...

But beyond all the language...i cant help but assume that Composer's core values and needs are in common with everyone else here. And he has a story like everyone else...perhaps even a role.

Of course, the consequences of his strategies and conclusions are his to carry and/or share. And its hard not to notice the squelch in the feedback...and the splashy discordant mix being called "troll" by much of the rest of the mix.

"Trip, trap, trip, trap! " went the bridge.

Edited April 29, 2010 by sirguessalot

[TrustAndObey]

Composer's questions seem quite valid to me...a bit jagged...and blunted...but certainly an expression of the other edge of the sword.

I must agree, the questions do seem quite valid. but I doubt most here aren't avoiding the questions, for I'm sure we have all wrestled with them at some time or another. Rather I think most are avoiding the person because they question his motives..

No one can doubt there is much evil in this world. Even the Hebrew/Christian scriptures claim as much. Not only do they attest of the many atrocities of man, it attest of some done in the name of religion itself.

Also, I think it is important to realize how each look at death. For us who are alive and desire to live, it is something to hold onto. If our loved ones are dying or have died, we wonder why, and wish them alive. Yet, as Solomon himself said in Ecclesiastes that sometimes it is better one not be alive. Why put up with the evil this world offers. Why stay breathing only to have to put up with the pain every day of your life. I am reminded of my grandmother who called us all very selfish for praying and trying to keep her alive when she had a stroke. As she put it, she was ready to die. Wanted in fact, and was very willing for that to be her last breath. Yet our selfish family kept her living, and now she is healthy and living and doing most everything she was before the stroke. That is, except she continues to ensure that we all know that next time, she wants it to be over. Selfish.. Not wanting someone to die?.. Yes, another way to view death. One amongst many ways. And whose to say any one person's view is correct? Just as with the interpretation of scriptures.

And atrocities.. What keeps us from blaming the people that actually commit these crimes, and instead try and pass off the blame as if it is the fault of another? God, the hospital, police, nature, the government... I've heard it all. Evil is what it is. And those who commit it are the guilty. If you think God caused it, then you either have a very unloving God or a distorted view of this God. Maybe some believe He should be stopping it all, IF of course He is capable. In fact why even allow evil on this earth, if God is in charge. Sure, valid questions. But none that haven't been answered from the hebrew/christian scriptures themselves in a variety of ways.

Some hold to the fact God is incapable. Not in control. Merely a player of statistics that is possibly 98% correct.

Others hold to the view that God allows such evil to continue yet protects any and all whom call on him thus providing a safe haven.

Still others hold to the view that God has set the evil in motion for a purpose and a plan.

Sure, pertinent questions.. And many possible answers.. Sounds like a great topic of discussion..

Edited April 29, 2010 by TrustAndObey

[cman]

an answer is being sought

don't be suprised if you get it

i'm sure it won't be what you expect

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

took them all away.....

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

you just want to cut down Christian

the Atheists scripture said evolved from Apes like creatures

I am a christian and I believe man evolved from a Ape like creature

Man and Ape and dog all evolved from dust

So we are no more than Dog, Cats, and every creature that goes back dust

While I ask What have done personally over in Haiti?

but you never answer me

God gives love but people have to want it

Serpent gives hate but people have to want it

love is love whether you believe in God or the Serpent

and id does what name you use

love is love

whether you see love is God or love is love

hate is hate whether you it as God or the Serpent or some other like pesil

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Abigail]

I am not a Christian, so perhaps my answers won't interest you. But, your understanding of Judaism interests me because I am Jewish.

I suspect, however, that you will find my answers unsatisfactory. They are my answers. By that, I mean they are not likely to be the answers you are seeking.

I can tell you I have raged at God. I have walked away from God. I have studied, I have screamed, I have thrown my hands up in the air and cursed at God. Yet, in the end I always return. Changed in my thoughts and opinions, but still believing in God nonetheless. My father wouild call that weakness, he does not believe. But for me, it is my belief that makes me strong.

I don't know why terrible things happen in this world. I don't know why 6 million Jews died in consentration camps or why so many died in Haitti. I don't know why men rape women, why children are abused, or why teenaged boys are killing each other over turf and drugs.

I don't know why I had to endure being raped at 17. Or why I had to endure an abusive marriage. Or why my grandmother (who was the most wonderful and amazing woman I have ever known) had to die only a few short months before she would have met her first great-grandson.

What I do know is that there are things I can do to make this world a better place. I know that each day I can take action that has a positive impact on my family and the community I live in. Most days, it may only seem like little things, but those little things can unexpectedly have a tremendous impact down the road. That is the cornerstone of Judaism, not the rituals, but the doing, the making a difference. I think many Christians may feel the same way about their religion as well.

And, I know that it is my belief in God that keeps me going and helps give me the strength and courage to continue to do those little things. Without that belief, for me, life seems hopeless and pointless. I might just as well eat, drink, and be merry until the day I die.

It is my belief in God that gives me hope and it is hope that gives me strength and courage and it is strength and courage that allows me to get out of bed every day and do my part to improve my corner of the world.

So, I don't believe in a good or loving God simply because some book says He is so. I believe in a good and loving God because that is what brings me peace in this chaotic and often harsh world that we live in.

[George Aar]

I watched a program on T.V. once with a number of Holocaust survivors who asked very similar questions. It strikes me that religion is in the business of denial and playing the P.R. publicist for The Almighty.

In a much simpler vein, how can one reconcile the supposed all-loving, all-powerful God of the New Testament and just ONE dead baby? I really don't think you can without resorting to all sorts of intellectual dishonesty. So that's what religion does. The God of The Bible isn't living up to what His book says about Him, so we have to improvise. "Well, He HAD to let that baby die or He wouldn't be a just God", "We don't know the mind of GOD, there must be a really important reason that He allowed that to happen", or the old favorite "It's all part of God's PLAN" - yada, yada. Yeah, it's pretty thin soup, but people have a lot riding on the "All-loving, Father God in the Sky" model, so we keep playing.

I think when one takes few steps back and REALLY, dispassionately, looks at relgious tenets, and their OBVIOUS blindspots, the only logical conclusion you can reach is that it really IS a lot of superstitious blather, and we're only wedded to it because our ancestors were. If we'd have been exposed to it AFTER we'd grown and matured in body AND mind, we likely wouldn't pay it any mind at all.

Death is still a Mutha-farker though. And the urge to believe that it'll all be pie-in-the-sky-when-we-die is still very tempting. There's damned scant evidence of that, though. Oh well...

[Composer]

God first

thanks Composer

you just want to cut down Christian

Well christian is just a self acclaimed title some ' arrogate ' for themselves when in fact they are frauds that fail to pass the test of their faith required by their story book and thus likewise fail to manifest the story book promises to genuine believers.

' arrogate '

1. Demand as being one's due or property; assert one's right or title to

2. Make undue claims to having

3. Take control of (without authority and possibly with force); take as one's right or possession

The trinitarian forefathers were particularly guilty of forcing their corrupt ideology on others whilst proclaiming their trinitarian ' God of Love ' LOL!

the Atheists scripture said evolved from Apes like creatures

Which ' atheists? ' all of them?

I am a christian and I believe man evolved from a Ape like creature

So you believe Adam is a descendent of an ape?

Man and Ape and dog all evolved from dust

So you don't believe the story book after all that this God created Adam from the dust, you said " I believe man evoloved from an Ape like creature? "

That's interesting. So accordingly you believe the story book was incorrect when it said " The Lord God formed20 the man from the soil of the ground21 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,22 and the man became a living being " (Gen. 2: 7) NET story book

You however contradict that and said " I believe man evolved from an Ape like creature? "

I am glad we both agree the story book is just a story book and you dispute its content.

So we are no more than Dog, Cats, and every creature that goes back dust

Hmm!

We are all organic I agree, but I can't agree a Dog or Cat is equal to humans in all ways?

While I ask What have done personally over in Haiti?

#1: I haven't been over there, I am a Carer for the sick and elderly here in Australia. IF I left my duties here caring for the sick, frail and elderly then it is a bit pointless, as I am needed here doing similar as I would be doing in Haiti.

Of course you are helping the needy out in Haiti so could you specify what you do for them?

1 of 2

Edited April 30, 2010 by Composer

[Composer]

but you never answer me

The facts as usual refute your typical pretend christian nasty and dishonest accusations. (See Answer #1 previous Post Part 1 of 2)

God gives love but people have to want it

Could you specify how this God ' gives people love? '

Serpent gives hate but people have to want it

Actually the Serpent told the Truth and they didn't die immediately and Adam lived 930 years.

This story book God was the liar that claimed death came because of man's sins when they were already created subject to death from Day 1, because the Tree of Life was there to make them Immortal. Therefore from Day 1 they were created ' mortal '. The story book God is a liar and a deceiver.

love is love whether you believe in God or the Serpent

IF your God loved us then it wouldn't tell lies and send earthquakes or inflict us with diseases etc., but it did and still does.

and id does what name you use

love is love

whether you see love is God or love is love

You have still failed miserably to show ' how your God loves us all? ' and your legitimate evidence remains a constant zero so far.

hate is hate whether you it as God or the Serpent or some other like pesil

with love and a holy kiss Roy

The Topic is your God's alleged love for its creation.

You have failed to demonstrate that it is true.

I have proved it isn't true!

2 of 2

Edited April 30, 2010 by Composer

[Composer]

God first

thanks Composer

Sometimes loving them is always not about telling about Jesus no matter who man was

IF you read the article you would have seen that they already know about this monster of a Jesus who sits back watching the carnage unfold - One Haitian woman wrote -

"Only Jesus Christ is watching over us," said Mariana Merise, 40, a neighbour. (Composer adds, notice how this woman remarks how this story book Jesus sits back and watches it all unfold and did nothing to prevent it in the first place?)

it about helping them

But you christians ' claim ' that your God is a God of love and wants the best for every one and whatever happens is your God's Will that it happens (e.g. earthquakes, floods etc.) so WHY do you want to go and disrupt your God's best intentions by interfering by going to Haiti of helping any one because according to you they are getting what your God knows is best for them.

You don't believe that at all and instead want to go and change what your God has caused and set in place.

You are disbelievers and have NO confidence that your God has caused these things to happen for the best reasons.

there time to tell later

That Haitian woman already knew about this monster Jesus. read the article!

I sure christian are just helping

They are interfering in what your God has caused to happen for their best reasons you christians claim. You are interfering and trying to undoe your God's ' loving works ' like an earthquake that destroyed 250,000 sinners, caused amputees, child sex slaves, criminals escaped raping survivors and trafficking in body parts of survivors etc. LOL!

I bet one time believers there are saying " God, Stop loving us please! you're love is a disaster!

[cman]

Composer, would you say that you don't know answers to questions that have been initiated by your post?

Would you also admit ignorance of the subject matter? Death and Life?

Whatever your motivation in starting this thread is not an issue for me.

I do however question whether or not you want any real substance to consider.

[soul searcher]

@ Abigail: Great post! :)

What are your views on death and the afterlife, if you don't mind me asking?

In a much simpler vein, how can one reconcile the supposed all-loving, all-powerful God of the New Testament and just ONE dead baby? I really don't think you can without resorting to all sorts of intellectual dishonesty.

I've had that discussion countless times over the years with various believers. My position has always been the same as yours.

But I have been trying recently to turn back to Christianity. My first step, which I'm in the middle of, is reading the bible from cover to cover, unguided and without any formal instruction. I'm going to let my own intellect figure out for me what the bible says, not what the priest at my local church or any other "man of God" thinks.

And then I'll take it from there.

Edited April 30, 2010 by soul searcher

[Abigail]

Soul Searcher, I can tell you my thoughts on the afterlife, but please keep in mind I do not speak for all of Judaism. :) As within Christianity, there is a diversity of beliefs among the Jewish people. What binds us together is not necessarily an agreement on all doctrine, but a shared heritage and belief in some (most definitely not all) of the basic tenants and rituals.

It has been quite a long time since I have given deep consideration to the afterlife, as I have put significantly more emphasis on living my life in the here and now. But, based upon my understanding of scripture I would only go so far as to state I do believe there is something more following death. I cannot say for certain if we are reborn and put back on this earth in a different body to continue learning and growing or if we return to God to await a new heaven and earth. I know Enoch walked with God and was translated. I know many men and women of the Bible were imperfect, yet it would seem they found rest with God when they were through with their earthly bodies.

I believe that the purpose and goal of our lives on this earth is two-fold. First, it is for us to grow and mature into better beings. Then, it is for us to work and live in our communities in such a way as to make them better. It seems to me there would be no purpose in growing into better beings if at the end of this life we were to simply fade into oblivion.

[soul searcher]

Thanks, Abigail. The reason I asked is that I've been having a discussion on another forum with some rather conservative Christians. Their position is clear: there's only one way to the moutaintop (guess which way that is?).

So, implicit in their beliefs is that everyone who doesn't accept Christ as savior will spend eternity in gravedom or get tossed into the lake of fire. I will never believe that.

I grew up in an area with a large Jewish population and I have Jewish relatives, and most of them are better persons tthan I am. To think that I have anymore "right" to enter God's kingdom than they based soley on my beliefs regarding Jesus Christ does not make sense.

[Abigail]

I have known quite a few Christians who beieve that way (and didn't pretty much all of us at one time or another during our stint with TWI?). Yet, even the knew testiment speaks of how all will come to a knowledge of God, or something to that effect. I think there are many paths to God. God is much bigger than the box we often try to force Him into. Perhaps if I have time this weekend, I will dust off my books and post some more on the subject. :)

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

You do not understand My heart

my goal is to see all sides to everything

the goal of love and goal of hate and everything between it

while you see the world one sided but do you really

you think you see love but blame God for doing anything

are put simple not in your eyes

the earth, dogs, cats, mankind are equate when comes to dust

but you say man greater than Dogs, apes, earth, and cats

I believe that to be truth

I believe the story Genesis but I also man was found under a Apple tree

an rock has no more knowledge than a man

A man is rock kind but also mankind

am I a cat not but made like a cat, rock, earth, dog, ape, cat, and more

but you say your greater than a Ape No you are more than a Ape and no less than

creation is a story but also a fact and everything between

you say you can not help the people of Haitian than do you cry about it

Haitian may never ask God for help

but the help they need is pain my understanding pain they are prepare for the next world

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited April 30, 2010 by year2027

[Composer]

God first

thanks Composer

You do not understand My heart

According to your story book I shouldn't and you shouldn't believe what your ' heart ' tells you -

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: . . . . (Jer. 17: 9) KJV story book

my goal is to see all sides to everything

That's a great ambition, how's it going for you?

the goal of love and goal of hate and everything between it

Your evidence that this God ' loves it's creation ' remains a constant zero so far.

while you see the world one sided but do you really

You have no idea that I seee the world from a one sided point of view. As a carer for example I see the world from the sick persons point of view and help them deal better with it.

you think you see love but blame God for doing anything

You and others keep harping on about this Gods alleged ' love ' but fail to provide your legitimate evidence?

are put simple not in your eyes

the earth, dogs, cats, mankind are equate when comes to dust

I already agreed we are all organic.

but you say man greater than Dogs, apes, earth, and cats

I believe that to be truth

Good, so do I.

I believe the story Genesis but I also man was found under a Apple tree

Your evidence is?

an rock has no more knowledge than a man

I would dispute that. I don't know any rocks that have an education and can say read & write etc.

A man is rock kind but also mankind

am I a cat not but made like a cat, rock, earth, dog, ape, cat, and more

but you say your greater than a Ape No you are more than a Ape and no less than

creation is a story but also a fact and everything between

?

you say you can not help the people of Haitian than do you cry about it

I can't be helping the sick, frail and elderly in two places at once. I am needed here.

Haitian may never ask God for help

1. Your evidence none asked for help is?

2. IF your God truly ' loved us ' it would have prevented the earthquake in the first place or made it safe for humans it is supposed to ' love '.

Your God is a fraud and a vicious monster to boot!

but the help they need is pain my understanding pain they are prepare for the next world

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Yes, the pain of being raped, or losing limbs, or being sold as a sex slave to paedophiles or having your body mutilated for body parts is ok by you as long as it doesn't happen to you and yours you hypocrite!

[cman]

Afraid of death Composer?

Yeah, I think so.

But you will, die.

If no one ever died in our present bodies,

we would run out of room for everyone.

And need more planets....