Our Gathering and Our Resurrection

[JeffSjo]

THESE VERSES SPEAK OF "GATHERING TOGETHER":

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

THESE VERSES REFER TO THE SAME THING IN THE GOSPELS:

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

NOW, FROM THE EPISTLES:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Where does it say in the scriptures that these are different events, the gathering spoken of by our Lord in the gospels and the "gathering" referred to in the epistles? I have never found one prophet or apostle that has "SAID" they are different things.

As concerning our standing in the epistles.....

Do we not need to confess our sins to be cleansed by the blood and stay IN CHRIST?

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do we need not to put away lies and hold on to a clear conscience to be fruitful?

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

HEBREWS 6:

3 And this will we do , if God permit .

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come ,

6 If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame .

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed , receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak .

(I THINK THE PROPER READING OF HEBREWS IS THAT EVERY WAYFER SHOULD THINK IT IS ADDRESSED TO HIM/HER. :mellow: SERIOUSLY.)

HEBREWS10:

9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool .

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified .

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before ,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised )

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching .

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

According to Hebrews ch's 6 & 10, believing and being enlightened holds us more accountable before God than we were before we believed. And the consequences for deliberate wickedness...HOW ARE THEY ANY MORE OR LESS SEVERE THAN JESUS WARNED IN THE GOSPELS?

BOTH THE GOSPELS AND THE EPISTLES TEACH RESURRECTION, RIGHT?

And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together.....

The epistles SAY resurrection.

The gospels teach of a GATHERING.

IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT!

So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter.

But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURRECTION.

Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century.

The first century believers were taught the RESURRECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection

John 5:

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Philippians 3:10,11

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Small point, the resurrection is something Paul considered a goal, could it be when he wrote Philipians he considered it as not quite a done deal?

------Jesus said he gathers the wheat .................and the tares.

Jesus is the resurrection: of the just..................and the unjust.

Check this out if you will....The Mystery.

Romans ch8:

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but fear :

21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .

26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I think it is unwise to think that Paul hadn't understood our supposed mystery when he wrote Romans.

After reading these verses I conclude that as a gentile believer that Paul warns me to not think that I am in any way immune to what happened to the portion of Israel that has been blinded, albeit temporarily so. Heck he directly says that it is no problem to graft them back in again, even saying if we don't continue in His Goodness, "otherwise thou also shalt be cut off", pretty direct warning, yes?

And as concerning vs. 25, 26, & 27, ISN'T THIS THE EXACT SAME THING WE HAVE IN CHRIST? We appropriate Christ w/in the new covenant taking away our sin easy enough, heck, most people consider that truth as Christianity 101, but here Paul say THE EXACT SAME BLESSINGS ARE YET TO COME TO ISRAEL AS A WHOLE.

EPHESIANS 2:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ephesians 3:

1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Isn't Paul's ENTIRE point here that this mystery is that the Gentiles would be FELLOWHEIRS!

Christ's promises were there already, and just because most of Israel is presently blinded to Christ does not mean they weren't given the promise of his blessing already, heck, do we need to show the HUNDREDS of promises that were to Israel alone until it was made clear through Paul and others that the gentiles were to be brought into this blessing completely and fully.

The vail was tore between the gentiles and the court of Israel, right?

Israel was nigh and the gentiles far off, right?

And one more consideration, if Paul didn't want the Corinthians to actually look forward to their heavenly bodies without the resurrection then what was he doing teaching the believers about the resurrection soooo darn much?

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him , and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men , another flesh of beasts , another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the RESURRECTION of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

To me, these verses make it plain to me that the proper application of earthly vs. heavenly/spiritual bodies is a reference to what we will recieve at the time of our resurrection.(vs. 46-49)

IMO here, the mystery Paul is refering to is that we won't all be dead at the time of the resurrection. I don't need to spiritualize it or paint a vast imaginary picture with the word mystery. he explained it to them right then and that PARTICULAR bit of insider info needn't remain a mystery to them anymore. To me the only mystery left is wondering why other than being misled would anybody insist this passage is not referring to the resurrection, it even says so. (SEE VS. 42)

To me, this topic represents a huge error in Wierwille's PFAL and puts the lie to his supposed calling.

[Steve Lortz]

Jeff,

I am in sympathy with the main thrust of your argument, and I also believe that the mystery first revealed to Paul was only that Gentiles, as ethnic Gentiles, could also get in on God's promises on the same basis as ethnic

Israel, by grace through faith.

However, the phrase "gather together" in Ephesians 1:10 doesn't come from the same words as "gather together" comes from in other places. The word in Ephesians 1:10 is anakephalaioomai or "to head-up for one's self".

I think Ephesians 1:9&10 can be read as follows,

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, toward management of the decisive opportunities, to head-up for himself all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him."

God has made Jesus Christ the head of all things so that he can steward (manage) decisive opportunities.

Love,

Steve

Edited April 19, 2010 by Steve Lortz

[JeffSjo]

Jeff,

I am in sympathy with the main thrust of your argument, and I also believe that the mystery first revealed to Paul was only that Gentiles, as ethnic Gentiles, could also get in on God's promises on the same basis as ethnic

Israel, by grace through faith.

However, the phrase "gather together" in Ephesians 1:10 doesn't come from the same words as "gather together" comes from in other places. The word in Ephesians 1:10 is anakephalaioomai or "to head-up for one's self".

I think Ephesians 1:9&10 can be read as follows,

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, toward management of the decisive opportunities, to head-up for himself all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him."

God has made Jesus Christ the head of all things so that he can steward (manage) decisive opportunities.

Love,

Steve

OK Steve and thank you too. :)

I will settle for this from 2 Thessalonians as referring to our gathering then.....

2 thessalonians 1:

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

For me it seems that some specific references come up repeatedly in both the gospels, epistles, and Revelation; Christ, His angels, His fire, the trump or more specifically the last trump, and also glorification vs. vengeance.

The more I've considered it the more I am amazed how because of Wierwille's doctrine that I kept them as separate events for soooo long.

And I know that the Way was excessively and foolishly fond of referring to the unbelievers facing fire, but I respond w/.....

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

AND.....

2 Pe 2:

9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb foot speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

IT IS WORSE FOR THOSE WHO WERE SOLD OUT TO WIERWILLE'S INSANITIES. Personally, I'm hoping for mercy, many were victims only.

Edited April 19, 2010 by JeffSjo

[Gen-2]

So,... if the gathering together is the resurrection of the just, then we are all going to New Jerusalem, no? That is our Hope? None of us are going to heaven if New Jerusalem is our destination , because that's on earth

... and so on.

But you can see what I'm getting at. There are several points here that would resultingly conflict. "Seated in the heavenlies", for us, becomes - just a Figure of Speech.

Just asking....

[TrustAndObey]

So,... if the gathering together is the resurrection of the just, then we are all going to New Jerusalem, no? That is our Hope? None of us are going to heaven if New Jerusalem is our destination , because that's on earth

But you can see what I'm getting at. There are several points here that would resultingly conflict. "Seated in the heavenlies", for us, becomes - just a Figure of Speech.

If that's not what he's saying.. It is at least how I see things.. But then, that's just me!

I don't believe God is a respecter of persons and had a plan for "Israel" any different than us. It's only that for a time he chose Israel as his ambassador to bring the world unto himself until they fell away and would not be the witness, at least as a nation. There are many verses you can go to in the old covenant(testament) that refers to God desiring all nations to come to him, not just Israel. But the two becoming one (israel/Gentiles) was His desire. One body, not separate nations, under Christ, and ultimately under God.

Genesis for me, in the garden, TO ME, holds God's heart for us since creation. It wasn't just a time frame of God just trying things out, but a time frame where God put all in motion of what he would like things to be, until we screwed it up (Adam) and thus started us down this long winding road, until one day, we shall be united in Christ, and then afterwards, be united under God on the new earth, with new heavens that shall be.

Seated in the heavenlies is a NOW thing. We are there now. No, not physically, but that is our "nationality" so to speak. God's kingdom. Our place, our life, our being, when Christ died, brought us with him and made a place for us in God's kingdom, as His sons/daughters. But I don't believe heaven is our "dwelling place", at least not as the ultimate plan. Although we will meet Him in the air and will forever be with him, but I don't know about forever being in the "sky" or "air".

At least, that's my take.. One of thousand different views, I'm sure..

[JeffSjo]

So,... if the gathering together is the resurrection of the just, then we are all going to New Jerusalem, no? That is our Hope? None of us are going to heaven if New Jerusalem is our destination , because that's on earth

... and so on.

But you can see what I'm getting at. There are several points here that would resultingly conflict. "Seated in the heavenlies", for us, becomes - just a Figure of Speech.

Just asking....

HI GEN-2, :)

I did a quick check on the references in the NT plainly mentioning New Jerusalem just to have a look, check this out......

Revelation 21: (This post done with NKJV)

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son

OK, so here in Revelation a vision is given of the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. I feel free to point out that has not come down from heaven yet, right? LOOK AT THE BLESSING HERE, WOW....God's dwelling, God's people, God's children, God's companionship, all troubles from our life gone and done away with, fountain of life, and inherit all things. WHAAT?, inherit....hhhhmmmmm.

It doesn't sound to bad right?

Revelation 21:(referring to New Jerusalem)

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m]

25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there)

God and Jesus Christ, hey, if Jesus Christ is there won't we be too? ALL NATIONS...THE SAVED.....SOUNDS LIKE US TO ME. :)

Hebrews 12:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly JERUSALEM, to an innumerable company of angels,

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Yes, in a figurative/spiritual sense we already; IN CHRIST; have come to the heavenly Jerusalem! Heck, check out the next one....... MOTHER OF US ALL!!! God through Christ has begotten children, Heavenly Jerusalem is the place where the river of life flows from already, but it is our hope too! WHOO, WHOO, WHOOOOOOOHAAAA!

Galations 4

26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written:

“ Rejoice, O barren,

You who do not bear!

Break forth and shout,

You who are not in labor!

For the desolate has many more children

Than she who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[f]

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

I think that The Way practically completely butchered darn near everything in regards to our calling IN CHRIST into the promises and hopes that Israel sought to come too. Frankly there were many uuuugly, antisemitic undertones IMO: what a load of crapola, thanks PFAL. <_<

Jesus said there will be many mansions, but only one CITY is spoken of....HHHHMMMMM.

(Last sentence was added in editing)

Edited April 20, 2010 by JeffSjo

[Cynic]

Good topic, Jeff. Bullinger and Wierwille's dispensationalism manufactured discontinuity between the Gospels and the remainder of the New Testament. I agree that there is one eschatological event for God's elect referred to in the Gospels and the Pauline epistles.

[Gen-2]

HI GEN-2,

I did a quick check on the references in the NT plainly mentioning New Jerusalem just to have a look, check this out......

It's interesting how this all drops into a logical sequence without any need for much explanation. Funny how the mind works. If not for Way teachings, you'd still have almost every Christian teaching Rapture of some sort. In this regard, though, those teachings of the Way only served to promote "elitism" (we're so special that God had to carve out a special niche for us), carrying dispensationalism off towards sensationalism.

Since your head is geared towards this, or any of you that have more time than I, I'll ask a favor. Do the concepts VPW taught concerning Bride & Body reconcile themselves in light of this? The Way's classes taught a division in Bride and Body that might have been artificial due to his divisions in Administrations, and what of the oikonomia and such?

There still is - something that happened on Pentecost that seperates us from believers of the days of yore, ... SO why (now) did Christ have to die if we're not getting something "special". I mean, I'd assume that Abraham and Noah, both gentiles, will be in the resurrection of the just, so why the sacrifice? Just to make it easier? Maybe that's the grace through which we were saved. God making it easier for us than the Law had been for them. But even the Jews that accept the new birth come in under this grace since pentecost, though they rebelled and wanted to keep the laws, rather than accept it.

Are we "natural born sons" rather than adopted? we of the new birth? That goes to the OT vs NT ways of being saved.

Just some stray thought I can't pursue now.

[cman]

yes.....vpw taught division from the the start of pfal

and he meant it too, dividing people against people

that's not Christ

bride or body is no difference

there is a difference in perception

the body is one, as you know

the bride is to be married to become one, the same one

what happened and what changed with the death of Christ happened for everyone

it is a matter of when we each see it unfold in and with us 'in the air

another comforter is spoken of

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I will come to you

from where? from which direction?

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

not receiving doesn't mean it is not had by all

dormant as a seed is, the awakening of it will come as promised

the spirit will open the understanding of spirit

for you, which we have now and they had before Pentecost

not the bible to the spirit, rather, spirit opening spiritual matters

[Steve Lortz]

Do the concepts VPW taught concerning Bride & Body reconcile themselves in light of this? The Way's classes taught a division in Bride and Body that might have been artificial due to his divisions in Administrations, and what of the oikonomia and such?

Ephesians 5:28-32

"28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

"29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

"30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

"31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh [Genesis 2:24].

"32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

God had to keep a secret, or the princes of this age would not have crucified Jesus of Nazareth.(Hmmmmm... THIS AGE still has princes that crucufied Jesus Christ???) That's what it says in I Corinthians 2:8. The secret was, that because Jesus died on the cross, God was going to be able to turn Jesus of Nazareth into the Lord of glory (Philippians 2:8-11). This was the BIG SECRET. There were other smaller things that had to be kept secret in order to protect the secrecy of the BIG SECRET.

One of these smaller secrets was that the believing remnant of Israel, the Bride in the gospels, was going to become the Body of Christ through the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24.

Another ancillary secret was that Gentiles, as Gentiles, would be able join the believing remnant on the same basis, by grace through faith. That was part of the secret that wasn't revealed until later, to Paul the apostle, who wrote "that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" in Ephesians 3:6.

So we see that the Church of the Body is not some "wholly new thing" as Scofield taught, but rather the believing remnant of Israel, having received the gift of holy Spirit first poured forth on the day of Pentecost, by which we are all baptized into one body (I Corinthians 12:13a), with believing Gentiles also grafted in.

Love,

Steve

[TrustAndObey]

In this regard, though, those teachings of the Way only served to promote "elitism" (we're so special that God had to carve out a special niche for us), carrying dispensationalism off towards sensationalism.

If you ask me, most talk about dispensations/administrations is sensationalism. Of course we are not under the laws of Israel. We don't live in the nation of Israel. Of course they were under the law. They lived in a freakin country that had laws! People think that just because we're Gentiles, and not under the laws in the OT, that it's something "new". No, if the Gentile believers lived in Israel, you better believe they had to abide by the freakin OT laws. Those were the laws of the nation. The nation God chose at the time, and gave them laws that set their nation apart. If you go to Israel now, you still must abide by their laws. Only sensationalism brings about this "We are not under the law" mantra. Course, our citizenship is in heaven, our laws are Heaven's/God's laws. But abiding by the law never saved anyone in the OT anymore than it does now. Our "believing"(Trusting) God unto righteousness is said to be the same as Abraham who was counted righteous for his "believing"(trusting). Nothing new folks. Sensationalism at its best. Israel was always able to believe(trust) unto righteousness just as Abraham did. It was always a matter of the heart.

There still is - something that happened on Pentecost that seperates us from believers of the days of yore, ... SO why (now) did Christ have to die if we're not getting something "special". I mean, I'd assume that Abraham and Noah, both gentiles, will be in the resurrection of the just, so why the sacrifice? Just to make it easier? Maybe that's the grace through which we were saved. God making it easier for us than the Law had been for them. But even the Jews that accept the new birth come in under this grace since pentecost, though they rebelled and wanted to keep the laws, rather than accept it.

Are we "natural born sons" rather than adopted? we of the new birth? That goes to the OT vs NT ways of being saved.

Christ was promised from the beginning of Adam's downfall, for all to believe(trust) in from the start. His death was required that he might be made Lord of all. Without that sacrifice, we are all (since Adam onwards) to get our "just" reward, which for sin is one thing, death. But with Christ, now is life made available. To those past, present, and future. If he had not, then death was still the last step. It had nothing to do with laws ever, those were a schoolmaster, something to learn from, not the deciding vote of being saved/unsaved. Salvation is from God, who is just. Has to be just even until the end. If one is raised, all must be able to be raised by the same virtue to be just. So therein God sent His Son, that all who would believe(trust) in Him, shall be raised justly, and all shall get their just reward.

There is no OT and NT ways of being saved. Only one. The same way since the beginning of time. God's plan. One plan. That plan has gone through many generations, many nations, if you want to denote the generations and administrations, fine. But it's still the same plan. Always has, always will..

(Course, again, my thoughts, could be wrong... But it is what I believe!)

Edited April 21, 2010 by TrustAndObey

[JeffSjo]

It's interesting how this all drops into a logical sequence without any need for much explanation. Funny how the mind works. If not for Way teachings, you'd still have almost every Christian teaching Rapture of some sort. In this regard, though, those teachings of the Way only served to promote "elitism" (we're so special that God had to carve out a special niche for us), carrying dispensationalism off towards sensationalism.

Since your head is geared towards this, or any of you that have more time than I, I'll ask a favor. Do the concepts VPW taught concerning Bride & Body reconcile themselves in light of this? The Way's classes taught a division in Bride and Body that might have been artificial due to his divisions in Administrations, and what of the oikonomia and such?

There still is - something that happened on Pentecost that seperates us from believers of the days of yore, ... SO why (now) did Christ have to die if we're not getting something "special". I mean, I'd assume that Abraham and Noah, both gentiles, will be in the resurrection of the just, so why the sacrifice? Just to make it easier? Maybe that's the grace through which we were saved. God making it easier for us than the Law had been for them. But even the Jews that accept the new birth come in under this grace since pentecost, though they rebelled and wanted to keep the laws, rather than accept it.

Are we "natural born sons" rather than adopted? we of the new birth? That goes to the OT vs NT ways of being saved.

Just some stray thought I can't pursue now.

Hi Gen-2,

You have big considerations and I don't mind thinking about it all for a bit, and I certainly will. It is an area where I have had years to consider this stuff and I'm quite certain that I have at least had these considerations before so if for no other reason than that, the scriptures just seem to fall into place when I look at this stuff I am happy.

But as concerning adoptive vs. birth children it would seem foolish to me to think that anybody God would call His kid He would also treat as a second class citizen, heck, even a good man will do better than that with an adoptive kid. But for me to say any more than that without doing some bookwork this time wouldn't be wise I don't think.

As concerning the bride vs. body issue, here is some stuff I have posted before w/ some additional comments..

Ephesians 5:25-32 (Lamsa version)

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved his church and gave himself for it,

That he might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of water and by the word,

In order to build for himself a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So should men love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

For no man ever yet hated his own body, but nourishes it and cherishes it, even as Christ does for his own church.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they to shall be one flesh.

THIS IS A GREAT MYSTERY; BUT I SPEAK CONCERNING CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH.

_____________

I feel very confident in saying that if we are "the church the body of Christ" that is very evident that we are his body as we are also "the church of the bride of Christ."

IT ISN'T A DIFFERENT CHURCH. IT IS TWO DIFFERENT WAYS OF REFERING TO THE SAME LORD WITHIN THE MARRAIGE ANALOGY. We are his bride, his flesh and his bones.

PAUL'S DOCTRINE WAS PLAINLY STATED THAT WE ARE CHRIST'S BRIDE. How simple is that? Who would want to say Paul was wrong, not me.

It is easy to say like PFAL said that the gospels were not written to us. It is also easy to say that our calling is different than Israel's calling. It is also easy to say that we are the body of Christ and not the bride.....

BUT IF THE SCRIPTURE'S DO NOT PLAINLY SAY THESE THINGS THEN IMO THEY ARE OPEN FOR DISCUSSION AND COMPARISON.

So Paul is the one who compared Christ to a husband and the church to a bride. My old TWI mindset of "We are not the bride, but we are the body" seems stupid to me now. The husband and wife were to become one flesh. Within that analogy, WE ARE BOTH BRIDE AND BODY. This seems to be simplicity itself to me now.

Examining these things is not easy, but I have had to unlearn PFAL doctrine to be honest with the scriptures, for example...

Ephesians 3:4-6 (KJV)

by which, when you read, you may undestand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ).

which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to his Holy apostles and prophets:

that the gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

_______________

We were brought into the same body, the same gospel as was preached to Israel...fellowheirs....etc

It is not a different body with a different hope, it is the same body. "One Lord, one faith". The only thing that was hidden was that us gentiles would be brought in.

So PFAL WAS WRONG!

Christ was promised from the beginning of Adam's downfall, for all to believe(trust) in from the start. His death was required that he might be made Lord of all. Without that sacrifice, we are all (since Adam onwards) to get our "just" reward, which for sin is one thing, death. But with Christ, now is life made available. To those past, present, and future. If he had not, then death was still the last step. It had nothing to do with laws ever, those were a schoolmaster, something to learn from, not the deciding vote of being saved/unsaved. Salvation is from God, who is just. Has to be just even until the end. If one is raised, all must be able to be raised by the same virtue to be just. So therein God sent His Son, that all who would believe(trust) in Him, shall be raised justly, and all shall get their just reward.

There is no OT and NT ways of being saved. Only one. The same way since the beginning of time. God's plan. One plan. That plan has gone through many generations, many nations, if you want to denote the generations and administrations, fine. But it's still the same plan. Always has, always will..

(Course, again, my thoughts, could be wrong... But it is what I believe!)

Hi TrustAndObey, :)

These things that you share have been a wonderful consideration for me and they seem consistent too.

[JeffSjo]

There is no OT and NT ways of being saved. Only one. The same way since the beginning of time. God's plan. One plan. That plan has gone through many generations, many nations, if you want to denote the generations and administrations, fine. But it's still the same plan. Always has, always will..

(Course, again, my thoughts, could be wrong... But it is what I believe!)

Here is why I still find your thoughts to be consistent and sound for me TrustAndObey.

Hebrews 11:[my comments will look like this, btw, I just found out how to do colored text.] :)

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. [though faith they obtained a GOOD TESTIMONY, long before Wierwille taught about our "gathering together" and long before pentacost too.]

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. [Here Abel was righteous long before the new birth]

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [as in God was HAPPY with Enoch]

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [in The Way we were taught that we are children of God, but God called Abraham His friend before "this administration."]

9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;

10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [uuuhhh, I'm guessing Heavenly Jerusalem here] :B)

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.

15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.

16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.[They had their time and God is pleased with them, we are not finished yet, are we? I'm supposed to think I am superior to them because why, I speak in tongues? I don't think so]

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,

19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,

25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,

26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.

28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:

33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.

37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented—

38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.[This verse is key for me to consider right now. I am no scholar, but I can read English.]

I think we needed something better to be considered in the same inheritance with them. I think it is grace and mercy that they will not be made perfect apart from us. I think I need a faithful and merciful High Priest making intercession for me to stand a friggin chance.

I think in The Way we read Hebrews 11:40 backasswards.

[geisha779]

There still is - something that happened on Pentecost that seperates us from believers of the days of yore, ... SO why (now) did Christ have to die if we're not getting something "special". I mean, I'd assume that Abraham and Noah, both gentiles, will be in the resurrection of the just, so why the sacrifice? Just to make it easier? Maybe that's the grace through which we were saved. God making it easier for us than the Law had been for them. But even the Jews that accept the new birth come in under this grace since pentecost, though they rebelled and wanted to keep the laws, rather than accept it.

We all still had to be redeemed.....purchased.....it had to be done whether we placed our faith in our redeemer before He came or after He was resurrected. The sacrifice isn't about us, but made for us. It is God's ....and it shows us His great mercy. God had to be satisfied, because God is holy and God is just.....Jesus died because God is merciful and love.....if it wasn't Him....it would have been all of mankind who bore God's wrath.

If Christ is not raised...we are yet in sin and our faith is in vain. All of us who place our faith in Christ....

A good thing to remember I think,....at least for me.... is that God tore the veil.....from the top down(Matthew 27:51).....man could not tear it from the bottom up...God Himself did it. He redeemed us. :)

This is a free down load book by John Piper on 50 reasons why Jesus came to die. Even if you don't agree with the theology.....the references are there as a jumping off point, .....at the very least, it gives us another way to begin considering the "whys".

http://www.desiringg...us_Came_to_Die/

I copied the table of content in case you are interested in looking at the reasons Jesus had to die.

1 To Absorb the Wrath of God

2 To Please His Heavenly Father

3 To Learn Obedience and Be Perfected

4 To Achieve His Own Resurrection from the Dead

5 To Show the Wealth of God's Love and Grace

for Sinners

6 To Show His Own Love for Us

7 To Cancel the Legal Demands of the Law

Against Us

8 To Become a Ransom for Many

9 For the Forgiveness of Our Sins

10 To Provide the Basis for Our Justification

11 To Complete the Obedience That Becomes

Our Righteousness

12 To Take Away Our Condemnation

13 To Abolish Circumcision and All Rituals

as the Basis of Salvation

14 To Bring Us to Faith and Keep Us Faithful

15 To Make Us Holy, Blameless, and Perfect

16 To Give Us a Clear Conscience

17 To Obtain for Us All Things That Are Good for Us

18 To Heal Us from Moral and Physical Sickness

19 To Give Eternal Life to All Who Believe on Him

20 To Deliver Us from the Present Evil Age

21 To Reconcile Us to God

22 To Bring Us to God

23 So That We Might Belong to Him

24 To Give Us Confident Access to the Holiest Place

25 To Become for Us the Place Where We Meet God

26 To Bring the Old Testament Priesthood to an End

and Become the Eternal High Priest

27 To Become a Sympathetic and Helpful Priest

28 To Free Us from the Futility of Our Ancestry

29 To Free Us from the Slavery of Sin

30 That We Might Die to Sin and Live to Righteousness

31 So That We Would Die to the Law and

Bear Fruit for God

32 To Enable Us to Live for Christ and Not Ourselves

33 To Make His Cross the Ground of All Our Boasting

34 To Enable Us to Live by Faith in Him

35 To Give Marriage Its Deepest Meaning

36 To Create a People Passionate for Good Works

37 To Call Us to Follow His Example of Lowliness

and Costly Love

38 To Create a Band of Crucified Followers

39 To Free Us from Bondage to the Fear of Death

40 So That We Would Be with Him Immediately

After Death

41 To Secure Our Resurrection from the Dead

42 To Disarm the Rulers and Authorities

43 To Unleash the Power of God in the Gospel

44 To Destroy the Hostility Between Races

45 To Ransom People from Every Tribe and Language

and People and Nation

46 To Gather All His Sheep from Around the World

47 To Rescue Us from Final Judgment 112

48 To Gain His Joy and Ours

49 So That He Would Be Crowned with Glory

and Honor

50 To Show That the Worst Evil Is Meant by God

for Good

Edited April 24, 2010 by geisha779

[Composer]

All these discussions over a story book is an exercise in literal futility and story book fantasy.

When any of you has some legitimate evidence the story book is the words of a God given to men please step forward and let's have an squizzy? LOL!

BTW: heaven going for all story book believers is another falsehood and the story book itself confirms that.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Composer

[year2027]

God first

thanks geisha

there 100 reason Christ lives in heaven

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[soul searcher]

A good thing to remember I think,....at least for me.... is that God tore the veil.....from the top down Matthew 27:51).....man could not tear it from the bottom up...

I always found that verse rather mysterious. Where is the temple that holds the "Most Holy Place" physically located? Or is it symbolic?

Another thing that strikes me (now that I'm reading the record again) is that in Matthew and Mark the curtain is torn after the cry of "Eloi, Eloi", while in Luke it is clearly torn before.

(Also, Luke doesn't specify in which direction it was torn.)

P.S. I realize all this has little to do with your post. :)

[JeffSjo]

All these discussions over a story book is an exercise in literal futility and story book fantasy.

When any of you has some legitimate evidence the story book is the words of a God given to men please step forward and let's have an squizzy? LOL!

BTW: heaven going for all story book believers is another falsehood and the story book itself confirms that.

It is no surprise to me that this all is foolishness to you Composer, heck, my "storybook" even tells me it will seem like that to you.

But in The Way any voice like yours would be discounted immediately to not even be taken seriously. I know that what The Way International has put there worst hatred towards has been those that #1 believe scripture; #2 see through their manipulative cruel second rate paper thin veil of biblical respectibility; and #3 dare to speak honestly about these things therebye exposing them for the lying, abusive, twisted perversion of biblical workmanship that they really are.

So here at GSC just like in free society you have the right to believe as you will and unlike in The Way international we both have the right to speak our own minds. But for whatever it's worth to you I don't how you can say any more than you already have here on this thread without it being pretty obvious to all that you are acting a little "trollish" yourself.

[geisha779]

Another thing that strikes me (now that I'm reading the record again) is that in Matthew and Mark the curtain is torn after the cry of "Eloi, Eloi", while in Luke it is clearly torn before.

This caught my attention :) ......I am often curious about what jumps out at people from the scriptures.....for me too.....as it has changed dramatically over time.

Why did that strike you? If you don't mind me asking. Actually, I wouldn't ask if I thought you would mind.

[soul searcher]

This caught my attention :) ......I am often curious about what jumps out at people from the scriptures.....for me too.....as it has changed dramatically over time.

Why did that strike you? If you don't mind me asking. Actually, I wouldn't ask if I thought you would mind.

I probably wouldn't have even noticed it if people weren't always claiming "inerrancy". My ex-Way friend was always telling me how "mathematically precise" the bible is. And when I bring inconsistencies to her attention she immediateley starts tearing the verse apart (i.e., how many time does a word occur in scripture? what do the words really mean? were they translated correctly? Etc.)

This particular record happens to contain a detail that I'm willing to overlook. But when people insist that the bible is inerrant and "mathematically perfect", I think it's incumbent upon them to clarify these inconsitencies.

[geisha779]

I probably wouldn't have even noticed it if people weren't always claiming "inerrancy". My ex-Way friend was always telling me how "mathematically precise" the bible is. And when I bring inconsistencies to her attention she immediateley starts tearing the verse apart (i.e., how many time does a word occur in scripture? what do the words really mean? were they translated correctly? Etc.)

This particular record happens to contain a detail that I'm willing to overlook. But when people insist that the bible is inerrant and "mathematically perfect", I think it's incumbent upon them to clarify these inconsitencies.

I get that!

If we look at the gospels like a photograph.....searching out the details for perfection we probably will miss the bigger picture. Are they written in exact chronological order? Are they meant to be? What is their purpose? Is some of it written in light of theology? Why four? Is an ancient historiography or biography written differently than one of post-enlightenment ...those of which we are most familiar?

The point is....they say the veil was torn.

Luke is written more like a hellenistic historiography. Matthew and Mark....more like ancient biographies....there are limitations to these ancient genres....they are not written to be read in view of mathematical precision....it isn't the baseball box scores. :) Go Sox...

What is interesting to note, is a few verses later in Matthew....the centurion, who had mocked Jesus.....fell down and said...."Truly this was the Son of God" quick and dramatic conversion....right?......he went from taking pleasure in mocking to falling down and confessing....What happened? What did he see?

Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks were split apart. And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised.(Now there is something to consider in light of the resurrection!)

The reason I even mentioned the curtain being torn from top to bottom......from heaven to earth......is to draw attention to the significance. The earth shook with the force of it....it was an event, bodies were raised....and that centurion was there to see it.

---------------------------------------------------------

Something else makes me wonder? When a harvest was brought in.....Israel would offer the sheafs of the first fruits to the priest.....a promise of the greater harvest.....and then the gleaning.

But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ...the first fruits....then when He comes, those who belong to Him. All kinds of things to consider!! :) There is also the gleaning to keep in mind. Yikes!!All part of one resurrection with different timing maybe?

Edited April 24, 2010 by geisha779

[soul searcher]

All part of one resurrection with different timing maybe?

That's one way to look at it...

My NIV says that the firstfruits, Christ, was the guarantee of the resurrection of all who are redeemed, "Christ was raised in his own time in history and those who are identified with Christ will be raised at his second coming".

Also this, which you brought up...

Matthew 27

52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

It's interesting that that account only appears in Matthew. Who were these holy people?

Corinthians says only that Jesus appeared to "more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time" (v.6, which, as we discussed a while ago, is the only scripture that says that over 500 people saw Jesus after the resurrection), it doesn't say anyone else was with him.

[Gen-2]

Okay, so I'm cruising along with the thought that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile now with respect to who can be saved in our day and time. This would necessitate a couple of things to happen. There would have to be a day when all of those alive (that will believe) comes to a conclusion, On that day, which God alone knows, he sends Christ to gather his people, and they meet him in the air, the dead and the living. This would be the first resurrection. The dead in Christ would be all the believers before the law that God judged worthy, all who lived under the law whom god judged worthy, and all the "born again" - along with any others God chose to have.

At that moment, the only people left on earth are,... well,... Unjust. When the last one of them dies, there would be nothing left for them than the resurrection of the unjust, which, at that point, would be anyone that God didn't get up earlier. As far as I can tell, they pretty much annihilate each other somehow.

So the only problem with all that, would be if the scripture starts mentioning people that are brought in between the two resurrections that believe, because they missed the Good ressurection boat.....

[cman]

If all that happens as you have suggested then there is a problem here.

A few actually.

When is it that we are just?

When is it when we are not.

And is this by one's own doing that we are just.

If not, then why would anyone be chosen to be one or the other.

And not picking on you, cause I know many think this-

There would have to be a day when all of those alive (that will believe) comes to a conclusion, On that day, which God alone knows, he sends Christ to gather his people, and they meet him in the air, the dead and the living.

Where did that idea come from.

The all at the same time theory.

As well as this thought-

At that moment, the only people left on earth are,... well,... Unjust.

Edited April 25, 2010 by cman

[Gen-2]

If all that happens as you have suggested then there is a problem here.

A few actually.

When is it that we are just?

~~ When God says so.

When is it when we are not.

~~ When God says so.

And is this by one's own doing that we are just.

~~NO

If not, then why would anyone be chosen to be one or the other.

Because God divides all into one of the two resurrections. Therefore - He chooses who will be in each.

And not picking on you, cause I know many think this-

There would have to be a day when all of those alive (that will believe) comes to a conclusion, On that day, which God alone knows, he sends Christ to gather his people, and they meet him in the air, the dead and the living.

Well - you certainly can't raise all the just if they have never been born yet. So I'm presuming that, in order to raise them they have to be alive or in the grave to do so, Because the bible states that much. God only knows when that time will be.

Where did that idea come from.

The all at the same time theory.

Have I stated some theory? Explain that better so I can answer it. This Gathering/Rerurrection thing is not my theory.

As well as this thought-

Quote

At that moment, the only people left on earth are,... well,... Unjust.

Once all of those who will ever believe have been gathered/resurrected, in the resurrection of the just, then the only people that can possibly be left are those who will never believe