The story book Jesus person was a liar and a fraud.
e.g.
The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.
But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another. -
In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)
cf.
Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET
This was later confirmed by -
Ezekiel 18:20 RSV
"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)
More so -
Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.
IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 5.)
I am a long time experienced debater and set high standards, however I welcome all reasonable responses and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christians.
I am a long time experienced debater and set high standards, however I welcome all reasonable responses and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christains.
Isn't saying
"...and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christains."
insulting and deragatory to Christians on several different levels?
GEE, if I could just manage to overcome that tendency of mine to lose track of my thought process after 30 seconds I might be able to come up with a cogent answer for you! :B)
Either that or in spite of your lengthy post Composer I feel you are not even close to being in a place where I would consider a serious discussion with you, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
I don't willingly tolerate disrespect toward non-christians here composer, at the very least I am not aware of anytime where I let it pass without saying something. And with other proffesing Christians here I have managed to keep a level of respect in spite of our different beliefs.
But so far you manage (speaking just for myself of course) to not be imposing, just annoying.
__________________________
And just for Roy,
God Bless You and I hope the things you desire and share here grow out of you like a fruitful tree planted next to the river. :)
Why take a section out of a storybook to prove your claim? I am not following. Help me here, I am not such a skilled debater.
You claim the bible is fiction. ...yet you extrapolate from it to prove a point about Jesus being a fraud and liar?
You claim the God of the bible is not real, but then use the Jewish faith in the same (storybook) God to make a counterpoint about original sin?
Huh? (scratches head)
That is. .. . fascinating.
What fairer way is there than my using the same book as those who claim to believe in it?
What I do with that same book, is point out that they invariably don't believe what it really says, but base their multitudenous religions that disagree with each other on what ' they wished it said, but invariably doesn't ' . In order for me to do that I have to set aside the facts that it is a story book and they have zero evidence to legitimately suggest it is anything more than that?
What fairer way is there than my using the same book as those who claim to believe in it?
What I do with that same book, is point out that they invariably don't believe what it really says, but base their multitudenous religions that disagree with each other on what ' they wished it said, but invariably doesn't ' . In order for me to do that I have to set aside the facts that it is a story book and they have zero evidence to legitimately suggest it is anything more than that?
So I just go with what the story book does say.
Cheers!
Well, actually, I have read your posts....and here is the thing....you use the "story book" and your understanding of it to support your points....yet, you decry an opposing point when supported by the same "story book". For example, Tom's post about the HS in the inerrancy thread. Didn't you ask him where he learned of the HS? Well, let me ask you...where do you read about Jesus?
You are going to show us that Jesus is a fraud and liar, by using a book that you say is fraudulent? I tell you what...here is a list of fallacious arguments....see how many you can find that you have already used in your posts. Hint...more than two or three or four..... http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#hominem
Poisoning the well from which you draw your own argument? Silly IMO.
Poisoning the well from which you draw your own argument? Silly IMO.
That's the point you are still missing!
The well you draw from is poisoned already. I just try to point your attention to that and stop you drinking from it and making yourselves even sicker with self delusion and story book promises.
The well you draw from is poisoned already. I just try to point your attention to that and stop you drinking from it and making yourselves even sicker with self delusion and story book promises.
You have already poisoned the well, why should I or anyone else now believe anything you try to explain to us? If you had approached us and said "If scripture is true...why this or that?" We might possibly have a discussion, but no.....you declared it fiction.....and now want to make your points about Jesus being a fraud and liar FROM fiction.
Even I know that if you want to make a point.....you first look at the evidence, build a case, and then draw a reasoned conclusion.....you don't even offer a good alternative or some kind of defense for the existential questions scriptures answers.....just some passing reference to some mythical ID God you have imagined and decided to believe in...that doesn't really fill me with confidence in your ability to discern. Can you do that by the way? Prove the God you believe in? At least I have the scriptures, which oddly have outlived all its pallbearers.
No, you have spoken excathedra and declared the scriptures fiction......now you want to use them to prove your point? Too late. All we could possibly have now is a discussion on the subjective nature of literature.....
Hey, but thanks for trying to save us from ourselves.....I am going with Jesus....at least He offers some substantial wisdom....whether you see it or not.....it is your choice.
I didn't write the story book. Other men did and that is the poison they planted long ago.
why should I or anyone else now believe anything you try to explain to us?
Because YOU people claim to believe the story book so I use it to legitimately demonstrate how it is poisoned and should not be taken as the basis that it is the Words of a God given to men. Something you so called christians have failed to legitimately demonstrate for my 50 years of trying.
If you had approached us and said "If scripture is true...why this or that?"
I have already tried that approach at other Forums recently so I approached here from a different angle. It doesn't matter which was i approach it, self acclaimed christians are still decimated by it and it gives me variety.
We might possibly have a discussion, but no.....you declared it fiction...
You and others here have had every opportunity to demonstrate it isn't fiction but alas all I received were personal attacks, name calling, what are you doing here and other typical pretend christian pitiful none sense.
..and now want to make your points about Jesus being a fraud and liar FROM fiction.
Because there is no better way than me confronting you with the reality of your story book being just a story book and showing you why in several ways -
1. You can't provide legitimate evidence it is the Words of a God given to men?
2. The ideology based upon that story book is flawed and not based upon what the story book text actually says. (trinity formulation is a big example)
3. In fifty years not one genuine claimed story book Jesus believer has ever legitimately manifested the story book promises already given to a genuine Jesus believer and instead that abject failure is replaced by pathetic and illegitimate pitiful excuses from almost every single so called christian?
Even I know that if you want to make a point.....you first look at the evidence, build a case, and then draw a reasoned conclusion.....you don't even offer a good alternative or some kind of defense for the existential questions scriptures answers.....just some passing reference to some mythical ID God you have imagined and decided to believe in...that doesn't really fill me with confidence in your ability to discern. Can you do that by the way? Prove the God you believe in? At least I have the scriptures, which oddly have outlived all its pallbearers.
Can I prove the ID I believe exists Nope! other than the facts of my existence and the things around me are beyond my abilities and I obviously didn't create them or myself.
The Sacred writings of the Hindus have existed before the bible text, so if longevity is you reason then you need to become a Hindu immediately and study the wisdom that existed before the wisdom you believe exists in your later available story book.
My past classes were full of people once like you are now. I stick to what legitimately and successfully works.
You poor dear, and I mean that quite sincerely.....you are having such a difficult time and....you sound quite frustrated? No worries, you can always just write me off as "people like you". Oh wait, you did that, and all without ever having met me....or knowing anything of my educational background, ethnicity, socio-economic status, gender, or the stability of relationships in my life.
Well, see, that should help make you feel better!!:)
You poor dear, and I mean that quite sincerely.....you are having such a difficult time and....you sound quite frustrated? No worries, you can always just write me off as "people like you". Oh wait, you did that, and all without ever having met me....or knowing anything of my educational background, ethnicity, socio-economic status, gender, or the stability of relationships in my life.
Well, see, that should help make you feel better!!:)
Very poor empty speech you give but as usual not a shred of legitimate evidence for your cause.
The story book Jesus person was a liar and a fraud.
e.g.
The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.
But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another. -
If you are going to debate, then at least get your own facts straight. The verse you are using, you use incorrectly. These people would beput to death by others, the LORD JESUS CHRIST laid down his life willingly...a big difference.
In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)
cf.
Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET
This was later confirmed by -
Ezekiel 18:20 RSV
"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)
More so -
Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.
IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 5.)
I am a long time experienced debater and set high standards, however I welcome all reasonable responses and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christians.
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Composer
The story book Jesus person was a liar and a fraud.
e.g.
The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.
But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another. -
In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)
cf.
Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET
This was later confirmed by -
Ezekiel 18:20 RSV
"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)
More so -
Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.
IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 5.)
I am a long time experienced debater and set high standards, however I welcome all reasonable responses and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christians.
Thank you
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Sunesis
No, newbie.
After your noxious comments and total disrespect for people here, you tell us first:
1. Why are you here?
2. What is your goal - what do you expect to teach people?
3. What is your motive?
$. What are the results you desire or expect to see in people after you have taught them?
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer
Adam never sin and nor did Eve
Jesus Christ does pay any sin
like God he teaches us
it about learning right from wrong
with love and a holy kiss Roy
thanks Sunesis
he is here to get over something
just like the rest of us
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Why take a section out of a storybook to prove your claim? I am not following. Help me here, I am not such a skilled debater.
You claim the bible is fiction. ...yet you extrapolate from it to prove a point about Jesus being a fraud and liar?
You claim the God of the bible is not real, but then use the Jewish faith in the same (storybook) God to make a counterpoint about original sin?
Huh? (scratches head)
That is. .. . fascinating.
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year2027
God first
thanks geisha779
my head is itches too
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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JeffSjo
Isn't saying
"...and please try to focus on the text and what you think it says or have been taught to believe and why, rather than the typical so called christian barrage of insults, name calling, troll accusations, why are you here?, you hate us garbage etc. etc. so typical of self acclaimed christains."
insulting and deragatory to Christians on several different levels?
GEE, if I could just manage to overcome that tendency of mine to lose track of my thought process after 30 seconds I might be able to come up with a cogent answer for you! :B)
Either that or in spite of your lengthy post Composer I feel you are not even close to being in a place where I would consider a serious discussion with you, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
I don't willingly tolerate disrespect toward non-christians here composer, at the very least I am not aware of anytime where I let it pass without saying something. And with other proffesing Christians here I have managed to keep a level of respect in spite of our different beliefs.
But so far you manage (speaking just for myself of course) to not be imposing, just annoying.
__________________________
And just for Roy,
God Bless You and I hope the things you desire and share here grow out of you like a fruitful tree planted next to the river. :)
__________________________
THAT IS ONE HOT AVATAR SUNESIS! :B)
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year2027
God first
thanks JeffSjo
thanks my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Composer
What fairer way is there than my using the same book as those who claim to believe in it?
What I do with that same book, is point out that they invariably don't believe what it really says, but base their multitudenous religions that disagree with each other on what ' they wished it said, but invariably doesn't ' . In order for me to do that I have to set aside the facts that it is a story book and they have zero evidence to legitimately suggest it is anything more than that?
So I just go with what the story book does say.
Cheers!
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Gen-2
The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
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geisha779
Well, actually, I have read your posts....and here is the thing....you use the "story book" and your understanding of it to support your points....yet, you decry an opposing point when supported by the same "story book". For example, Tom's post about the HS in the inerrancy thread. Didn't you ask him where he learned of the HS? Well, let me ask you...where do you read about Jesus?
You are going to show us that Jesus is a fraud and liar, by using a book that you say is fraudulent? I tell you what...here is a list of fallacious arguments....see how many you can find that you have already used in your posts. Hint...more than two or three or four..... http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#hominem
Poisoning the well from which you draw your own argument? Silly IMO.
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer
so what if think my written are same as a story book
there my and no one others
with love and a holy kiss Roy
thanks Gen-2 and geisha
thank you Gen that agrees with my words
and geisha thanks for defending my words
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Composer
That's the point you are still missing!
The well you draw from is poisoned already. I just try to point your attention to that and stop you drinking from it and making yourselves even sicker with self delusion and story book promises.
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geisha779
You have already poisoned the well, why should I or anyone else now believe anything you try to explain to us? If you had approached us and said "If scripture is true...why this or that?" We might possibly have a discussion, but no.....you declared it fiction.....and now want to make your points about Jesus being a fraud and liar FROM fiction.
Even I know that if you want to make a point.....you first look at the evidence, build a case, and then draw a reasoned conclusion.....you don't even offer a good alternative or some kind of defense for the existential questions scriptures answers.....just some passing reference to some mythical ID God you have imagined and decided to believe in...that doesn't really fill me with confidence in your ability to discern. Can you do that by the way? Prove the God you believe in? At least I have the scriptures, which oddly have outlived all its pallbearers.
No, you have spoken excathedra and declared the scriptures fiction......now you want to use them to prove your point? Too late. All we could possibly have now is a discussion on the subjective nature of literature.....
Hey, but thanks for trying to save us from ourselves.....I am going with Jesus....at least He offers some substantial wisdom....whether you see it or not.....it is your choice.
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer and geisha
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Composer
I didn't write the story book. Other men did and that is the poison they planted long ago.
Because YOU people claim to believe the story book so I use it to legitimately demonstrate how it is poisoned and should not be taken as the basis that it is the Words of a God given to men. Something you so called christians have failed to legitimately demonstrate for my 50 years of trying.
I have already tried that approach at other Forums recently so I approached here from a different angle. It doesn't matter which was i approach it, self acclaimed christians are still decimated by it and it gives me variety.
You and others here have had every opportunity to demonstrate it isn't fiction but alas all I received were personal attacks, name calling, what are you doing here and other typical pretend christian pitiful none sense.
Because there is no better way than me confronting you with the reality of your story book being just a story book and showing you why in several ways -
1. You can't provide legitimate evidence it is the Words of a God given to men?
2. The ideology based upon that story book is flawed and not based upon what the story book text actually says. (trinity formulation is a big example)
3. In fifty years not one genuine claimed story book Jesus believer has ever legitimately manifested the story book promises already given to a genuine Jesus believer and instead that abject failure is replaced by pathetic and illegitimate pitiful excuses from almost every single so called christian?
Can I prove the ID I believe exists Nope! other than the facts of my existence and the things around me are beyond my abilities and I obviously didn't create them or myself.
The Sacred writings of the Hindus have existed before the bible text, so if longevity is you reason then you need to become a Hindu immediately and study the wisdom that existed before the wisdom you believe exists in your later available story book.
My past classes were full of people once like you are now. I stick to what legitimately and successfully works.
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geisha779
You poor dear, and I mean that quite sincerely.....you are having such a difficult time and....you sound quite frustrated? No worries, you can always just write me off as "people like you". Oh wait, you did that, and all without ever having met me....or knowing anything of my educational background, ethnicity, socio-economic status, gender, or the stability of relationships in my life.
Well, see, that should help make you feel better!!:)
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer and geisha
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Composer
Very poor empty speech you give but as usual not a shred of legitimate evidence for your cause.
My Post#16 remains unanswered.
Better luck next time!
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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brideofjc
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TheInvisibleDan
Welcome.
You remind me of myself on some of my worst days.
But such zeal can also present the paradox that what one most vehemently despises, they may also tend to become.
It's weird, but it happens.
Are you better than Jesus Christ?
Then by all means, why not take it upon yourself to at least act as such?
If you observe Christians treating others like crap, then please - why not take the opportunity to demonstrate here a higher road.
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year2027
God First
thanks BrideofJC and TheInvisibleDan
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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TheInvisibleDan
Roy,
in all my years passing in and out of this forum, you have consistently been one the nicest people I've ever encountered.
Quite an accomplishment on the internet these days, when it's all too easy to give way to snark and mouse rage.
I think you're pretty cool. Thank you.
-Dan
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year2027
God first
thanks Dan
thank you my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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