Many people use David and his seeming blessings by God despite Bathsheba as an example of why even though Weirwille had affairs and raped women why his words should be reviered still.
I find this fascinating on a couple of levels but I am not versed very well in the Bible so I am putting it up for an honest discussion on here.
It is perhaps a missunderstanding on my part but wasn't David and his life and beliefs and actions in alignment with God Until he took Bathsheba as his concubine and had her husband murdered and then he was out of favor until he repented. (after the death of his son)
My understanding of Weirwille is that before he started the Way International he had an affair with one of his parishioners.
Then for the entire duration of his Way International ministry he had affairs and raped young girls up until he died or at least 2 years before he died.
There is not a single account of him ever having asked for forgivenes or even owning up to his error
How then can this man be compared to David?
Edited to fix my typos and to add this is not aimed at any one person, but I have seen this brought up by different people in the threads and I wanted to know what everyone else thought.
I Kings 15:5
KJV: Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
NASB: because David did what was right in the sight of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
==================================
If victor paul wierwille should be compared to anyone in the Bible, it should be Balaam.
II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
--------------
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
Jude 3-11
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Revelation 2:13-15.
13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
================================================
II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.)
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
--------------
[God warned that false prophets AND false teachers would come,
and introduce "destructive heresies" secretly. They would teach (by action and lesson) SENSUALITY- a following-after of
lusts and the deeds of the flesh. Their GREED was the motive for EXPLOITING CHRISTIANS, and why they lied to them.]
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
[Animals operate primarily from instinct. They don't really REASON, or deal in abstractions.
Humans were granted reason to make their own decisions. Humans have no excuse when they
choose to embrace instincts. Some humans have chosen to sin in the daytime. That's one thing,
but here, WORSE is being spoken of- these chronic, voluntary sinners choose to DECEIVE and
pretend they are fine, upstanding leaders- with small exceptions for when they're interacting
with their fellow Christians.]
----------------
15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
=======
[balaam was a prophet of God, and was supposed to SERVE GOD.
Instead Balaam served his appetites, Balaam served SIN.
Balaam loved MONEY, and exhibited MADNESS over it. He really, really loved money.
None of us dislike it, but this man was willing to practice idolatry over it.
People like him are haughty and full of self-pride, and teach others to sin and follow lusts.
They speak of FREEDOM, even FREEDOM and LIBERTY IN CHRIST,
while serving sin wholeheartedly.]
=========
Jude 3-11
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
[We're being warned that among the Christians, some UNGODLY people have turned God's GRACE-
and the freedoms under Christ- and made them an EXCUSE TO SIN.]
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
=========
[This is serious stuff.
God's putting these guys in the same category as Sodom and Gomorrah.]
===
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
[There's the connection to Balaam again.
They are envious and despise God's counsel like Cain,
and money produced an idolatry like with Balaam.]
=========
Revelation 2:13-15.
13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
-----
[balaam wasn't just out for MONEY.
(Balaam wasn't a sinner for one long, greedy weekend. He was weak of character besides that.
Balaam taught Israel to perform idolatry and IMMORAL ACTS.
I bet there was money in it for him to do that....]
but I have seen this brought up by different people in the threads and I wanted to know what everyone else thought.
I think wayfers are always making excuses for their involvement in twi. If there's something wrong with their leader there's something wrong with them, in their minds. Their minds start jumping
i take the whole thing off the bible topic and just compare it to every day things like going to court and looking at how things in court work, and seeing how a regular everyday judge in a regular everyday court works with regular everyday people because anybody can see for themselves in such a situation just how much bs is in such a comparison as wierwille to david because anybody can see for themselves in such a situation those that are obviously bsing the judge and those that are probably not going to end up in front the judge over and over again with the same old song and dance. and anybody can see it even with little kids, too, with that "well she did it and so why can't i?" stuff, and parents are always saying, "well if your friend jumped off a bridge would you want to jump off a bridge, too?" this isn't a deep thological question here, or even a deep moral question or anything deep at all, i mean most parents have taught their children by the age of 3 to know the difference between right and wrong and to know that they have to say, "i'm sorry" and change their behavior. it's really all that simple, and the fact that wierwille and the way international makes a whole doctrine and makes it so difficult and full of bs only shows that they're hiding something and that something has always turned out to be their own shameful sin that they are happily, gleefully and proudfully unrepentant of.
I think all that stuff about David with his not-so-subtle comparison was simply a part of VPW's self-aggrandisement.
He wanted to put himself right up there with David.
Okay, David messed up with Bathsheba.
He also messed up (though not shown in the extracts from the Bible that WW selected, above) over not dealing with his sons Amnon when one of them followed his example and raped - raped his own sister Tamar (2 Sam 13). That caused chaos and civil war in the kingdom.
The fearless young David, who hunted down the enemies of Israel, in turn became hunted down and fled in fear of his own son (2 Sam 15:14ff). Abandoned his women folk.
Not so perfect really, then.
The younger David was generous and giving - a protector to the weak.
When older and richer (and once he was the Top Man), he also prepared ahead. He collected materials for a magnificent temple. He gave of his own money for the temple. He set up contracts with neighboring potentates for the supply of beautiful things for the temple (exotic woods, etc).
You might say Weirwille also prepared ahead - managed to get that auditorium built - put some donation in of his own funds. It is a nice place. But for the glory of God - or the glory of Weirwille?
The older David was an old lecher who had a young woman, Abishag, to warm his bed (1 Kgs 1).
The older Wierwille ... well, fill in the blanks for yourself.
Perhaps Wierwille was telling us more than we realized........
You might say Weirwille also prepared ahead - managed to get that auditorium built - put some donation in of his own funds. It is a nice place. But for the glory of God - or the glory of Weirwille?
isn't the contrast intriguing.. David put GOLD into the temple treasury.. vic built his with brass..
"It is perhaps a missunderstanding on my part but wasn't David and his life and beliefs and actions in alignment with God Until he took Bathsheba as his concubine and had her husband murdered and then he was out of favor until he repented. (after the death of his son)"
Wierwille's view was more in line with King Louis the 16th, or at least as Mel Brooks said in History of the World, Part 1(It's good to be the king, eh the Man of God)
yeah.. he sawed off some kind of philistines head..
but what's up with.. sleeping with a man's wife, having the husband murdered to avoid embarrasement..
besides everything else.. he rehearses how he was wronged by some citizens.. along with instructions to bring them to the grave with blood.. to his own son, solomon..
maybe this kind of *dang* is just a trademark of da mogs..
yeah.. he sawed off some kind of philistines head..
but what's up with.. sleeping with a man's wife, having the husband murdered to avoid embarrasement..
besides everything else.. he rehearses how he was wronged by some citizens.. along with instructions to bring them to the grave with blood.. to his own son, solomon..
maybe this kind of *dang* is just a trademark of da mogs..
I think what is notable about David is that he was as screwed up as the rest of us (if not more so) and in-spite of his evil deeds, he did all he was able to obey God. Now, in contrast we have men like Wierwille and Martindale who are self professed "Man of God", demigods who justify their evil and persist in it secretly for many years and could care less of their hypocrisy and are calloused to the damage done to their victims.
True.. maybe what I'm thinking is, if one wants to compare the two scumbags to David, the closer comparison overall seems to fit David's darker side..
that really seems to be where the comparison stops at.. when vic, loy and crowd weren't generally pillaging, raping god's people and blowing a lot of hot air on a stage somewhere.. they were doing what? Trips to warmer parts.. and/or generally sitting on their lousy rears..
True.. maybe what I'm thinking is, if one wants to compare the two scumbags to David, the closer comparison overall seems to fit David's darker side..
that really seems to be where the comparison stops at.. when vic, loy and crowd weren't generally pillaging, raping god's people and blowing a lot of hot air on a stage somewhere.. they were doing what? Trips to warmer parts.. and/or generally sitting on their lousy rears..
The comparison between Wierwille and David, whether started by Wierwille or one of his enthusiastic followers was definitely incorporated into followers of The Way Internatonal through deliberate misinformation propoganda.
Wierwille undoubtedly found it convenient to liken himself to David because nobody who believes the scriptural record would question David's calling. IMO not questioning David's calling forces us to also come to terms with how a good man can sin badly. It wasn't just Uriah's murder that got David in trouble either, God gave David consequences for being such a warlike king later on too!
I AM WILLING TO QUESTION WIERWILLE'S CALLING HOWEVER, even though I choose to believe David's calling as factual history.
I do not believe Wierwille taught the word as it has not been known since the first century. So either Wierwille didn't teach what he knew or the claimed promise to Wierwille was a dam lie! I believe Wierwille's report of God's promise was a dam lie, but include the other possibility here just for full consideration.
For David's sin against Uriah (according to the prophet) David's own son rose up against him and openly laid with David's concubines even though David's sins were secretive in nature. Wierwille was never punished and never openly repented of his sins.
Some awesome psalms came as the result of all the tumult that followed David' sin. The best Wierwille ever could do was plagiarize and otherwise copy the work of more capable and better men and sell most all of us at one time or another his b.s. mogdom.
WIERWILLE AND THE WAY INTERNATIONAL COMPARED WIERWILLE TO DAVID AS THE RESULT OF WIERWILLE'S INSANITY IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE MYTH OF WIERWILLE'S MOGDOM.
HERE WE MAY FREELY COMPARE WIERWILLE TO DAVID TOO, AND HERE I FEEL FREE TO POINT OUT THAT COMPARING WIERWILLE TO DAVID ONLY DISCREDITS THE WAY INTERNATIONAL AND ALL THEIR TIP-TOP LEADERSHIP.
WordWolf thank you for that concise post. IT is enlightening when you look at it that way, and I am appalled yet again that I fell into following The Way International. I remember hearing talk about can you sin once you are born again at the PFAL class I took.(this was in response to the whole once you are born again you can not lose your salvation teaching, I don't remember which session it was towards the end) People looking for an excuse to sin.
I should have paid more attention and ran the other way as fast as my legs could take me, but foolishly I thought it was just people looking for an excuse, I should have made the connection when our Branch leader(L** Armstr@ng) talked about you being able to sin when you were walking by spirit.
Looking backward now I can see it all so clearly and there were definite times when things came up that I questioned back then but being young I always gave the Ministry the benifit of the doubt. People can mis understand teachings.
IF I had known at the Time all that Victor P Weirwille was doing and that he was teaching this stuf I certainly would have left immediately.
But Weirwille taught one thing to the masses and another thing to his faitful Corps and yet another thing to the top leadership.n
I won't even touch on Martindale as he was not in charge while I was there so anything a write about him would be from what I heard here.
Weirwill was certainly in it not just for the money but for the access to vulnerable people
and like every human predetor he cultivates teh week and young so he can feed his own apetite.
Thanks everyone for your input. I apprecuiate it the jokes too.
This subject makes my heart ache again because I wasted some of my life and because I brought other people to this cursed ministry that has really nothing to do with trying to live a life by the example of Christ and everything to do with fleecing God's lambs. :(
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WordWolf
I Kings 15:5
KJV: Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
NASB: because David did what was right in the sight of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
==================================
If victor paul wierwille should be compared to anyone in the Bible, it should be Balaam.
------------------------------------------------------------
II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
--------------
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
Jude 3-11
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Revelation 2:13-15.
13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
================================================
II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.)
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
--------------
[God warned that false prophets AND false teachers would come,
and introduce "destructive heresies" secretly. They would teach (by action and lesson) SENSUALITY- a following-after of
lusts and the deeds of the flesh. Their GREED was the motive for EXPLOITING CHRISTIANS, and why they lied to them.]
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
[Animals operate primarily from instinct. They don't really REASON, or deal in abstractions.
Humans were granted reason to make their own decisions. Humans have no excuse when they
choose to embrace instincts. Some humans have chosen to sin in the daytime. That's one thing,
but here, WORSE is being spoken of- these chronic, voluntary sinners choose to DECEIVE and
pretend they are fine, upstanding leaders- with small exceptions for when they're interacting
with their fellow Christians.]
----------------
15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
=======
[balaam was a prophet of God, and was supposed to SERVE GOD.
Instead Balaam served his appetites, Balaam served SIN.
Balaam loved MONEY, and exhibited MADNESS over it. He really, really loved money.
None of us dislike it, but this man was willing to practice idolatry over it.
People like him are haughty and full of self-pride, and teach others to sin and follow lusts.
They speak of FREEDOM, even FREEDOM and LIBERTY IN CHRIST,
while serving sin wholeheartedly.]
=========
Jude 3-11
3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
[We're being warned that among the Christians, some UNGODLY people have turned God's GRACE-
and the freedoms under Christ- and made them an EXCUSE TO SIN.]
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
=========
[This is serious stuff.
God's putting these guys in the same category as Sodom and Gomorrah.]
===
10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
[There's the connection to Balaam again.
They are envious and despise God's counsel like Cain,
and money produced an idolatry like with Balaam.]
=========
Revelation 2:13-15.
13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
-----
[balaam wasn't just out for MONEY.
(Balaam wasn't a sinner for one long, greedy weekend. He was weak of character besides that.
Balaam taught Israel to perform idolatry and IMMORAL ACTS.
I bet there was money in it for him to do that....]
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Bolshevik
I think the day or the next day after lcm's "admission of error" letter was read I heard the Bathsheba talk . . . from a 13-year-old.
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Bolshevik
I think wayfers are always making excuses for their involvement in twi. If there's something wrong with their leader there's something wrong with them, in their minds. Their minds start jumping
. . . uh . . . uh . . . lcm cheated??? . . . uh . . uh . . wait . . . David cheated . . . so everything is hunky dory now!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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brainfixed
i take the whole thing off the bible topic and just compare it to every day things like going to court and looking at how things in court work, and seeing how a regular everyday judge in a regular everyday court works with regular everyday people because anybody can see for themselves in such a situation just how much bs is in such a comparison as wierwille to david because anybody can see for themselves in such a situation those that are obviously bsing the judge and those that are probably not going to end up in front the judge over and over again with the same old song and dance. and anybody can see it even with little kids, too, with that "well she did it and so why can't i?" stuff, and parents are always saying, "well if your friend jumped off a bridge would you want to jump off a bridge, too?" this isn't a deep thological question here, or even a deep moral question or anything deep at all, i mean most parents have taught their children by the age of 3 to know the difference between right and wrong and to know that they have to say, "i'm sorry" and change their behavior. it's really all that simple, and the fact that wierwille and the way international makes a whole doctrine and makes it so difficult and full of bs only shows that they're hiding something and that something has always turned out to be their own shameful sin that they are happily, gleefully and proudfully unrepentant of.
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chockfull
I think the only accurate comparison between VPW and David is that currently they both are dead.
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Bolshevik
oh was this thread about vpw not lcm? oops . . .
so I guess the excuse for lcm was another recycled waytard thought.
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mstar1
David Koresh maybe---
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Broken Arrow
Maybe he did!
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Ham
I don't think david was so great either..
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Twinky
I think all that stuff about David with his not-so-subtle comparison was simply a part of VPW's self-aggrandisement.
He wanted to put himself right up there with David.
Okay, David messed up with Bathsheba.
He also messed up (though not shown in the extracts from the Bible that WW selected, above) over not dealing with his sons Amnon when one of them followed his example and raped - raped his own sister Tamar (2 Sam 13). That caused chaos and civil war in the kingdom.
The fearless young David, who hunted down the enemies of Israel, in turn became hunted down and fled in fear of his own son (2 Sam 15:14ff). Abandoned his women folk.
Not so perfect really, then.
The younger David was generous and giving - a protector to the weak.
When older and richer (and once he was the Top Man), he also prepared ahead. He collected materials for a magnificent temple. He gave of his own money for the temple. He set up contracts with neighboring potentates for the supply of beautiful things for the temple (exotic woods, etc).
You might say Weirwille also prepared ahead - managed to get that auditorium built - put some donation in of his own funds. It is a nice place. But for the glory of God - or the glory of Weirwille?
The older David was an old lecher who had a young woman, Abishag, to warm his bed (1 Kgs 1).
The older Wierwille ... well, fill in the blanks for yourself.
Perhaps Wierwille was telling us more than we realized........
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Ham
isn't the contrast intriguing.. David put GOLD into the temple treasury.. vic built his with brass..
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waysider
"It is perhaps a missunderstanding on my part but wasn't David and his life and beliefs and actions in alignment with God Until he took Bathsheba as his concubine and had her husband murdered and then he was out of favor until he repented. (after the death of his son)"
----------------------------------------------------
I believe that is the essence of the record.
David was in God's favor BEFORE the Bathsheba incident.
However, Wierwille had us believing David was "a man after God's own heart" IN SPITE OF the incident.
By juxtapositioning the chronology, Wierwille completely changed the message to serve his own agenda.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Wierwille's view was more in line with King Louis the 16th, or at least as Mel Brooks said in History of the World, Part 1(It's good to be the king, eh the Man of God)
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Ham
I still wonder what made David so great..
yeah.. he sawed off some kind of philistines head..
but what's up with.. sleeping with a man's wife, having the husband murdered to avoid embarrasement..
besides everything else.. he rehearses how he was wronged by some citizens.. along with instructions to bring them to the grave with blood.. to his own son, solomon..
maybe this kind of *dang* is just a trademark of da mogs..
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OldSkool
I think what is notable about David is that he was as screwed up as the rest of us (if not more so) and in-spite of his evil deeds, he did all he was able to obey God. Now, in contrast we have men like Wierwille and Martindale who are self professed "Man of God", demigods who justify their evil and persist in it secretly for many years and could care less of their hypocrisy and are calloused to the damage done to their victims.
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Ham
True.. maybe what I'm thinking is, if one wants to compare the two scumbags to David, the closer comparison overall seems to fit David's darker side..
that really seems to be where the comparison stops at.. when vic, loy and crowd weren't generally pillaging, raping god's people and blowing a lot of hot air on a stage somewhere.. they were doing what? Trips to warmer parts.. and/or generally sitting on their lousy rears..
"work"? ha..
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soul searcher
I like the way he took him down with one rock.
He had an eye for the ladies -- I can identify with that.
David was a bada$$. You didn't mess with King D.
I liked his psalms, too, even though he probably didn't write them.
Aside from Jesus; David, Solomon and Samson are my favorite biblical charactes.
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OldSkool
So true. Great points!
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JeffSjo
Interesting question Leafytwiglet. :)
The comparison between Wierwille and David, whether started by Wierwille or one of his enthusiastic followers was definitely incorporated into followers of The Way Internatonal through deliberate misinformation propoganda.
Wierwille undoubtedly found it convenient to liken himself to David because nobody who believes the scriptural record would question David's calling. IMO not questioning David's calling forces us to also come to terms with how a good man can sin badly. It wasn't just Uriah's murder that got David in trouble either, God gave David consequences for being such a warlike king later on too!
I AM WILLING TO QUESTION WIERWILLE'S CALLING HOWEVER, even though I choose to believe David's calling as factual history.
I do not believe Wierwille taught the word as it has not been known since the first century. So either Wierwille didn't teach what he knew or the claimed promise to Wierwille was a dam lie! I believe Wierwille's report of God's promise was a dam lie, but include the other possibility here just for full consideration.
For David's sin against Uriah (according to the prophet) David's own son rose up against him and openly laid with David's concubines even though David's sins were secretive in nature. Wierwille was never punished and never openly repented of his sins.
Some awesome psalms came as the result of all the tumult that followed David' sin. The best Wierwille ever could do was plagiarize and otherwise copy the work of more capable and better men and sell most all of us at one time or another his b.s. mogdom.
WIERWILLE AND THE WAY INTERNATIONAL COMPARED WIERWILLE TO DAVID AS THE RESULT OF WIERWILLE'S INSANITY IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE MYTH OF WIERWILLE'S MOGDOM.
HERE WE MAY FREELY COMPARE WIERWILLE TO DAVID TOO, AND HERE I FEEL FREE TO POINT OUT THAT COMPARING WIERWILLE TO DAVID ONLY DISCREDITS THE WAY INTERNATIONAL AND ALL THEIR TIP-TOP LEADERSHIP.
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waterbuffalo
LOL, Chockful!
I think I can give you a two letter word answer to your quetion Leafytwiglet,
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cheranne
I almost chocked on my coffee when I saw this! Thanks for the laugh. :lol:
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leafytwiglet
WordWolf thank you for that concise post. IT is enlightening when you look at it that way, and I am appalled yet again that I fell into following The Way International. I remember hearing talk about can you sin once you are born again at the PFAL class I took.(this was in response to the whole once you are born again you can not lose your salvation teaching, I don't remember which session it was towards the end) People looking for an excuse to sin.
I should have paid more attention and ran the other way as fast as my legs could take me, but foolishly I thought it was just people looking for an excuse, I should have made the connection when our Branch leader(L** Armstr@ng) talked about you being able to sin when you were walking by spirit.
Looking backward now I can see it all so clearly and there were definite times when things came up that I questioned back then but being young I always gave the Ministry the benifit of the doubt. People can mis understand teachings.
IF I had known at the Time all that Victor P Weirwille was doing and that he was teaching this stuf I certainly would have left immediately.
But Weirwille taught one thing to the masses and another thing to his faitful Corps and yet another thing to the top leadership.n
I won't even touch on Martindale as he was not in charge while I was there so anything a write about him would be from what I heard here.
Weirwill was certainly in it not just for the money but for the access to vulnerable people
and like every human predetor he cultivates teh week and young so he can feed his own apetite.
Thanks everyone for your input. I apprecuiate it the jokes too.
This subject makes my heart ache again because I wasted some of my life and because I brought other people to this cursed ministry that has really nothing to do with trying to live a life by the example of Christ and everything to do with fleecing God's lambs. :(
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geisha779
They were both male?
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