James Trimm's Hebrew Roots Version (HRV) title page stated he translated Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts for his New Testament.
"A translation of the "New Testament" taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts."
That would mean that one would find all books of the New Testament in the original manuscripts of Aramaic and Hebrew. One would also find that these sources would be valid and recognized as authentic and would also not be known as translations of the Greek manuscripts by authoritative scholars.
James Trimm announced various times on various forums, such as his SANJ forum at Yahoo:
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 0:49pm
Subject: HRV Bible Coming Soon
... The HRV translation of the New Testament is translated out of the ORIGINAL HEBREW AND ARAMAIC and is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic Manuscripts NOT THE GREEK....
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:27pm
Subject: Restoring Original Hebrew/Aramaic NT
....Unlike most translations this edition is not rooted in a Greek Hellenistic text. Instead this translation seeks to understand the text of the New Testament from the languages in which it was originally written. This is important because there are some passages in the NT which do not make sense at all in Greek, but only begin to make sense when we look at them in Hebrew and Aramaic:.." 1
James Trimm also stated that for the New Testament he used, " the Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts rather than the Greek. The HRV reaches back to the original text of the Tanak by making use not only of the Masoretic Text, but of the Massorah, the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak, the Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch, the Greek Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls." And , "The HRV "New Testament" text is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts. (Shem Tob, DuTillet and Muster Hebrew Matthew; Munster Hebrew Hebrews; The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels; The Aramaic Pedangta NT and the Crawford Aramaic Revelation.) and has over 1,700 footnotes. "...The HRV Tanak it translated primarily from the Hebrew Masoretic Text contains many footnotes giving important alternate readings from the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts; the Samaritan Pentateuch; the Greek Septuagent; the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak and the Aramaic Targums." 2
Trimm posted a page of Sources which supposedly revealed where he obtained his documentation. 3 After consulting with professors regarding James Trimm's stated Sources for "translating" the HRV, it was stated to this writer, that it is obvious that in order to even read/utilize the listed source texts one would have to know, "at a minimum, Hebrew, Syriac, and Greek (to be able to judge the accuracy of the Hebrew and/or Syriac translation of the Greek NT)."
These are the opinions, collectively, of real professors who head Religious Departments in major Universities, who have doctorates in Middle East studies and so on. These are the academics who know what would be needed in order to translate a Bible and also be able to utilize the resources James Trimm claims to have used.
Some might suggest that James Trimm would not need knowledge of Greek because he rejects the Greek New Testament.
It's been stated by people fluent in Aramaic and Hebrew that James is not in the least fluent in those languages. Some have posted various writings and asked him to translate on the spot, and he has been unable to. Nor can he dialogue in those languages.
For example: Uri-Yosef, Born, raised, and educated in Israel. His credentials include, "Language skills: Fluent in Hebrew, German, and English. Good facility in Yiddish. Knowledge (at various levels) of Arabic, Aramaic, Portuguese, and Spanish. Also have knowledge of American Sign Language (ASL)." Although a counter-missionary advocate, his background in Hebrew is enough to reveal that James Trimm does not know Hebrew and Aramaic fluently.
"....PS - As to what Yatziv Patgam said, it actually took place on Trimm's "home turf", in the Messianic Q&A chat on PalTalk, into which I was invited to come and challenge him. With one simple question in simple Hebrew I demonstrated that James Trimm, who has claimed to be fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, knew less Hebrew than the average Israeli child in pre-school (i.e., 3-4 year old). Later, I also asked him to provide Hebrew Bible support to some theological issue that he was touting, and he quickly back-pedaled and admitted that no direct verses exist to support his claim but, when a bunch of verses are interpretted in a certain way, they would support what he was claiming which, of course, was a bunch of nonsense...." http://pub157.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm1.showNextMessage?topicID=265.topic
Regarding Aramaic, from the Pedangta.org, we read of interaction with Paul Younan, who was raised in the Assyrian culture and is fluent in Aramaic.
Paul Younan
5. "RE: Dr. Trimm on AramaicNT.org"
Jun-08-2003 at 05:39 PM (GMT3)
Hi Akhi,
To be completely honest with you, I find it very annoying to argue with someone who can't even speak Aramaic, about Aramaic.
James Trimm is a student. He learned whatever little he knows from reading books. That's not a bad thing. What is bad is when he sets himself up as some sort of authority on the topic, which he is not.
What's worse is that he insists on arguing with me about the meaning of words he has no clue about, about a language that is completely foreign to him and that he can't even hold a 30-second discussion in, face-to-face.
...Furthermore, James Trimm has absolutely no credentials to be calling himself a "Dr.", and you shouldn't address him is as such, either. That gives people the wrong impression, but that's your choice.
Nobody who really knows a spit of Aramaic pays any attention to him, as Dr. Kiraz will attest to you...Paul Younan, Pedangta.org"
And surprisingly, James Trimm has never claimed to know Greek, although he has made claims to have a Doctorate in Semitic Studies and Linguistics. However, James Trimm has consistently used Greek New Testament, via Strong's, quotes in many of his forum and article discussions as to why the Greek is translated incorrectly and therefore not the original language of the New Testament. He also states he used "the Greek Septuagint." Hence he would indeed have to have knowledge of Greek to utilize the various resources and also make those critical assumptions.
What James failed to list in his translation resources was The Way International Bible. James Trimm also neglected to mention that in 1993 he put out a request on the internet, for a copy of that Version.
...CALLING ALL MEMBERS AND EX-MEMBERS OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL!
I am looking for members and ex-members of The Way International. As you may know, the late Dr. Wierwille, founder of The Way International, taught that the NT was originally written in Aramaic, that the Pedangta Aramaic NT is an important witness to the NT text, and that research tools on this subject are badly needed. As the following quotes demonstrate:
"...Aramaic was the original language in which the New Testament was written..."-- Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille; Twenty-fifth Anniversay Souvenir Booklet, p. 17.
"For centuries, the Greek versions of the New Testament have recieved their due attention while the Aramaic versions, for the most part, have been neglected. Discoveries in textual criticism in the last 150 years, however, have shown the Pedangta [Aramaic] text,... and other versions play as vital a role as the Greek in ascertaining the original New Testament text... In recent times some scholars have demonstrated that a Palestinian Aramaic original lies behind the Greek versions of New Testament documents.... research tools of the Pedangta [Aramaic] Version are essential to this task."-- Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille; The Concordance to the Pedangta Version of the Aramaic New Testament; p. ix
If you are interested in this type of research we would like to hear from you.
HEBREW/ARAMAIC NEW TESTAMENT RESEARCH INSTITUTE
"Researching & publishing Hebrew and Aramaic N.T. manuscripts"
... Hebrew/Aramaic New Testament Research Institute
PO Box 471
Hurst, TX 76053..." 4 [spelling as seen]
In various forum discussions, there was reference to the late Herb Jahn. Jahn's version of the New Testament was called, The Aramaic New Covenant, and was claimed by Jahn "to be the only literal translation/transliteration made from the original Aramaic, the variant of the Hebrew language spoken by Jesus and His disciples."
At one point in the early stages of the preparation of Jahn's "The Aramaic New Covenant", Herb hired James Trimm to assist him in its preparation. He had hired James Trimm to help him "translate", and Trimm stated,
"... Originally Mr. Jahn hired me to do the translation. We signed the contracts and all went well for about three months. ... Jahn had obtained the Way Intl. Interlinear edition and decided he could use that to produce his version. Jahn himself does not know a word of Aramaic. Jahn's previous project, the exoGesis study bible provides his translation from the Heb. O.T. and Greek N.T.. Jahn does not know Hebrwew or Greek but looked up EVERY word in a Strong's and made sure that each word was always translated with the same english word (regardless of context). Jahn had also heard that Hebrew has no tenses so he put the ENTIRE OT portion in the present tense...." 5 (spelling as shown)
James Trimm referenced the Syriac Pedangta documents of Agnes Smith Lewis, as one of his sources. A Pedangta translator, who was one of the original Way International's Research Team, has published the Way's Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament of the Pedangta. The internet version varies slightly from the Way International's translation. The base texts for the Way translation included Agnes Smith's Pedangta.
It recently has been alleged that the HRV is a plagiarism of the Way Interlinear Bible. Researcher Kathryn Kern contacted the people involved, and has done comparison of Trimm's HRV with passages of the Way International Interlinear. I'm sure the investigating authorities will also look seriously at that issue. The original Way translation was authorized by Paul Victor Wierwille, a man who openly denied the Deity of the Messiah, and authored the book "Jesus is not God". What James Trimm may not have realized is that the Way Research team did try to remove some of Wierwille's bias from their version, and according to Dr. John Juedes, were fairly successful.
While researcher Kathryn Kern and myself are not fully in agreement doctrinally, her desire to seek the Truth is evident. Her research on James Trimm has also been extensive. Kathryn has also recommended that people contact the following authorities, if James Trimm has refused to refund monies to Yeshiva students or purchasers of his products. Her statement:
Since James has refused refunds to those requesting them, due to his misrepresentation of his abilities and his plagiarism, I have provided avenues for the victims to seek restitution. I suggest filing with both, since they are two different agencies.
Randy Cook at one of the following , brcook@uspis.gov , (817)317-3460, P.O. Box 162929, Keller, TX 76161-2929
Randy Cook works for the United States Postal Inspectors office since mailing out the HRV, based on false advertising qualifies as mail fraud.
Greg Abbott, Attorney General of Texas, P.O. Box 12548, Austin, TX 78711
David Linkletter of Texas Higher Education can also be contacted, regarding the Yeshiva issues.
James Trimm has defended George Lamsa, and in fact has been on the board of the Aramaic Bible Society which pushes Lamsa's writings and theology. We find that his friend Bishop Don de Cordova aka Don Hargis are "both" part of that organization as well. George Lamsa, a close friend to Way International founder Victor Wierwille, was instrumental in the development of The Way International's theology and writings.
The Lamsa connection
That same year, Wierwille began to study the Aramaic Bible, believing that Aramaic was the language which Christ Himself spoke and in which the original Bible was written (most scholars believe that it was actually written in Greek). He met George Lamsa, translator of the Aramaic Biblical Texts , and they began to work together on study of the Aramaic translation. Wierwille believed that the best way to know the truth revealed in the Bible was to know it the way it was originally written. (Melton, 1986: 206)
Sacred or Revered Texts:
The Bible (Aramaic version). Wierwille's writings, such as Jesus Christ is Not God are also considered important. Emphasis is also placed on the works of George Lamsa, including The Holy Bible From Ancient Eastern Manuscripts . Other important books include the writings of Indian bishop KC Pilla: The Orientalisms of the Bible and Light Through an Eastern Window . (Melton, 1986: 208)" 6
Lamsa actually lived with Wierwille for a time. Victor Wierwille, leader of The Way, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ and his writings reflected that belief. He, along with Michael Rood, Trimm and many others, promoted the primacy of the Aramaic. Others would simply suggest that Aramaic or Syriac versions provide an interesting study alongside the original Greek and should not be excluded for that reason.
Dr. John Juedes, in discussion of Victor Wierwille's sources of theology, wrote in, A CLOSE LOOK AT SOME OF THE WAY'S TEACHINGS:
Arguing from Aramaic
A presupposition behind much of Wierwille's exegesis is the primacy of Aramaic. In fact, Wierwille and The Way freely alter much of the New Testament text, such as Matthew 27:46 and the Hebrews 11 passages mentioned above by an appeal to Aramaic. Their basis is the forthright assertion that the Testament was written originally in Aramaic, not Greek .47 They refer extensively to the Estrangelo Aramaic, or Syriac versions and to the Pedangta version as translated by Dr. George M. Lamsa.
Reputable modern scholarship unanimously rejects the notion that the Syriac was the language of the autographs, although some suggest that many of Jesus' sayings were first recorded in an Aramaic dialect of Israel. However, the only conclusion that fits the evidence is that the Syriac versions were translated from original Greek writings.
Evidence against the Syriac being the original language of the New Testament is quite conclusive. First, Aramaic has continually changed over the 30-plus centuries of its existence. Numerous dialects have existed simultaneously. Palestine was home for recognizable variations, including the Galilean dialect which Jesus space the Samaritan dialect, and the Southern dialect spoken around Jerusalem. Odessa, the focus of Syriac and its major New Testament versions, was over five times as far from Jerusalem as Galilee was. Hence, Edessan Aramaic (classed as an eastern Aramaic) was far different from the Palestinian Aramaic dialects of the apostles (classed as western dialects). Second, the 100-200 years of change between the time of the apostles and the Syriac brought more differences. In fact, the area of Odessa, about 150 miles from the coast, was not even evangelized, much less established in Christianity, until after A.D. 116, long after the New Testament was written. Third, Koine Greek was used universally around the Mediterranean and was known as a second language even by farmers of less Hellenized areas, More than half of the Old Testament passages found in the New Testament are quoted from the Greek Septuagint, not from an Aramaic targum or Hebrew text of the day. Even the Gospel of Matthew, written by a Jew for Jews, quotes more than half of its Old Testament passages from the Septuagint.4' Of 29 inscriptions found on ossuaries on Mt. Olive, 11 are Greek, 11 are Aramaic, and 7 are Hebrew.
In addition, the apostles and the Jews around them were well acquainted with Greek. The New Testament writers wanted not only Israel, but all nations, to believe. There is no reason for them to have written in a little known, politically and racially colored local dialect when the universally known Koine Greek existed.
The Pedangta, respected highly by The Way, is an inferior biblical text. It was not an original or even a new translation of the Greek New Testament, but was a late fourth-century revision of the superior Syriac versions based on later inferior Greek texts. It also lacks 11 Peter, 11 and III John, Jude, and Revelation. The Estrangelo Aramaic it represents is not a language in itself as The Way International leads one to believe. Instead it is one of many scripts or styles of writing that was applied to Aramaic and prevailed in the fourth and fifth centuries A.D.50
Dr. Lamsa's translation of the Pedangta, respected by The Way, displays many weaknesses. He paid little attention to variant readings that would improve its text, used unidentified "later Aramaic texts" to supply missing portions and, in places, copies the King James Version. The forms of Aramaic he is acquainted with are quite removed from that of Jesus' time." Unfortunately, The Way spends an enormous amount of energy and places a great deal of weight on the unfounded theory of Aramaic originals, ne un supportability of this theory results in the collapse of many of Wierwille's interpretations.
...Abuse of Greek syntax and manuscripts is the second category of Wierwille's defective methodology. His misuse is apparent in the examples discussed above: ignorance of genitives of aim, mid-sentence alterations of word meaning, the superfluous distinction between "faith" and believing," and imposed parentheses that wrongly segment biblical sections. His knowledge of Hebrew linguistic style is no better, as his misapplication of Isaiah 43:7 shows. In order to use Greek manuscripts to his full advantage, he also promotes inferior research tools and false principles of textual criticism.
Glaring inconsistencies mark The Way's manipulations of Greek texts. On the one hand, The Way revises the text of John 21:19 on the basis of MS 31, claiming that this thirteenth-century manuscript was based on an earlier, "correct" text. This approach refutes Wierwille's revisions of I John 5:7, 1 Timothy 3:16, Galatians 4:6, and John 1: 18 (which he alters to deny Christ's deity). If MS 31 were based on an earlier, "correct" text, then by the same principle MSS 61, 88, 629, and 635, which support the KJV reading of I John 5:7, were also based on earlier, correct texts and should be accepted.
...Wierwille also misuses Greek texts by setting a lone good source in opposition to all other MSS (as in Gal. 4:6) and by placing a few MSS of low reliability above MSS of greater quality and number (as in John 1:18). Proper textual criticism does not scrape up any MS evidence in existence regardless of quality in order to back a preconceived interpretation, as The Way does...
Wierwille's third false key of research is his claim that the New Testament was authored in Aramaic, then translated into Greek, Some passages, such as the above-mentioned Matthew 27:46 and Hebrews 11 verses, he claims were erroneously translated, and he offers his own "accurate" translation. He also manipulates Orientalisms to his advantage, as in Philippians 2:6. He uses both "Aramaic originals" and "Orientalisms" to avoid passages that oppose his preconceived theology.
Wierwille gives no concrete evidence to support his theories of Aramaic originals nor of mistranslations into Greek. At best, he argues from silence, which is the weakest of contentions. No Aramaic originals are extant, and all of the earliest New Testament manuscripts that have been recovered are in Greek, not Aramaic. The overwhelming evidence favors Greek, not Aramaic originals. Semitisms and Aramaic words found in the New Testament are not traces of Aramaic originals. Rather, they reveal the historic reality of the language Jesus most often ministered in, as well as literary fullness and the Semitic backgrounds and ways of thinking that the Jewish authors were used to." 7
When James Trimm appears to have used The Way International Bible for at least a source for his "translation" of his Hebrew Roots Version, he made a connection to the foundational theology of false prophet Michael John Rood. Roods beginnings and many of his current teachings are linked directly to Way International theology. But more than that. People who work together and believe together, are joined together. It has been alleged that Chris Lingle and Eric Sandquist were both reportedly 'former' Way International members and worked, and Sandquist continues to work, with James Trimm. If true, that means they also, at least while in The Way, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ.
James Trimm's claim to translate from the original Hebrew manuscripts is also not academically accurate. The supposed Hebrew Matthews or Shem Tob Matthew are from the 1400-1500 range CE. Precisely, ShemTob is dated 1380, while DuTillet and Muenster are about 1550. Together they make up the "Middle Ages Matthews" but, they are very different, and as one stated, that is one of the ironies. Hugh Schonfeld and James Trimm mostly push DuTillet. Michael Rood and George Howard promote the Shem Tob version. The Greek Matthew is from the 250-400 CE range. And so it goes. For more in-depth on the Shem Tov analysis please see :Newsflash! "Raiders" of Nothing of Value Michael Rood of A Rood Awakening and Nehemia Gordon, US Speaking Tour January 2005
Shem Tob's "Matthew", which any textual critic will tell you, is nothing more than a corrupted medieval text, which was a corrupt copy of the Greek or Latin text. It is also used extensively in footnotes in James Trimm's HRV, and never identifies Jesus as the Christ such as is seen in Matthew 1:1, "these are the generations of Jesus..." rather than the KJV's, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David,..." etc.
NKJV 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
Hugh Schonfields 1:1 These are the generations of Yeshua, the son of David, the son of Avraham
Trimm's HRV 1:1 These are the generations of Yeshua, the son of David, the son of Avraham
Aside from never acknowledging Jesus as the Christ and omitting phrasing that confirms His Deity, Shem Tob Matthew also has many other doctrinal changes, including elimination of verses.
Trimm quotes and sources Hugh Schonfield works, including his, An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel, which suggests that Hebrew, not Greek, is the original text of the New Testament. Hugh Schonfield is best known for his writing, The Passover Plot, which uses every argument to show why the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ were not as stated in the Scriptures. He looks at the Scriptures as 'legends', and wishes to set believers free from destructive teachings and deceptions and their "fairy dust called faith." 8
Schonfield suggests in The Passover Plot, that if people, ".... depend entirely on the New Testament they cannot form a correct judgment of Jesus.” 9 “The authors, had to write up their subject with rather meager resources of documentation and living recollection” 10
He then suggested, in spite of New Testament Scriptures which declare the writings to be by revelation of the Holy Spirit, that, “Actually we are better placed now than they [the New Testament writers]” 11
Schonfield shows us his way to finding the 'truth', writing,
“...To reach conclusions which can fairly be regarded as corresponding as nearly as possible to the reality entails a vast amount of analysis and comparisons, the patient piecing together of a host of hints and scraps of tradition, and in particular a sympathetic involvement in the affairs of the Jewish people and detachment from considerations of Christian theology.” 12
In what becomes his speculation and actual denunciation of the Scriptural account of Jesus Christ, Schonfield writes, “We are nowhere claiming for our reconstruction that it represents what actually happened.” 13 That speculation becomes an exercise to destroy the validity of the Scriptures, the Deity of Jesus Christ, His crucifixion, His burial, His being raised from the dead and His ascension to the right hand of the Father. It attempts to destroy who Jesus Christ is, and the witness found in the New Testament.
It's common for all in these groups to reference David Stern's Complete Jewish Bible (CJB), which is not a literal translation of the original. Stern decided that the CJB would be better utilized, if he supplied a companion, which he called the Jewish New Testament Commentary [JNTC]. James Trimm has often referred to David Sterns commentary in his writings and has quoted it extensively, as he does the Shem Tob Matthew.
All in these groups seem to have promoted the ISR, or continue to do so. The ISR uses the Textus Receptus [NT] and the Masoretic text [OT] as it's base text. Those are the same base texts for the King James Version.
The ISR sources are also stated as being, "... The Old Covenant is based on the Massoretic Hebrew and Aramaic text, according to the 1937 edition of Kittel's Biblia Hebraica. The New Covenant is based on the Textus Receptus, being modified with the use of such other texts as the Nestle-Aland and Shem Tob, as seemed appropriate. ..." 14
Unfortunately, the ISR inserted their "choice" of sacred names, and then went on to use corrupted Alexandrian texts as well as Shem Tob Matthew, which ends up in a pseudo "corrupt" KJV version.
The ISR omits the reference to the Messiah's Deity [Theos/God] from 1 Timothy 3:16. They clearly did not follow the Received Text on this and other very definitive passage that illustrates the Deity of The Messiah. For those important verses such as Colossians 2:9, the ISR appears to have switched to the Alexandrian text, which is what the Westcott and Hort, Nestle Aland and other base texts are and which most new Bible translations are based on, such as the NIV. See: The Clapham Sect, The Ghost Society & The Word of God; Bible Versions: Topical Comparison Charts; etc.
"The Scriptures" (ISR), endorsed by James Trimm on various forums, as a good translation, is also endorsed and used by Tom Mitchell. It's also promoted and sold by Marshall Moshe Koniuchowsky, and Michael Rood and many others. Koniuchowsky and Norman Willis, and others, also sell or have in the past, sold or promoted Trimm's HRV.
It should be clarified that Norman Willis did not directly sell Trimm's HRV. Rather, his use and endorsement of it and James Trimm's writings on his website led him to tell people how and where they could obtain the HRV. On July 14, 2005, James Trimm posted an endorsement of the HRV from Norman Willis. In that endorsement Willis stated, "
"...At long last, I finally received my copy of James Trimm's Hebrew Roots Version of the Scriptures (the HRV). I must say that I am impressed. James Trimm has done his usual scholarly job of leaving a trail of high-quality, trackable notes...
I have not had time to go through the book entirely, but it appears that James Trimm has done a superior job. My only real comment is that I would like it very much if he were to come out with an HRV in a 'parallel edition,' with the English translation on
the left, and the Hebrew/Aramaic Text on the right (with all of the same footnotes and annotations). If he did that, I am certain I would trade up from my Artscroll Tanach.
The HRV appears not only to be a good translation, but it also contains very valuable commentary. It appears to be well worth having, and I am sure I will make good use of mine. James Trimm's scholarship has exceeded my expectations.
I understand that the book is available (and in stock) at http://www.aleftavjudaica.com/. You can also write to the owner of AlefTavJudaica, Dominick Zangla, at dominick@.... I believe that any serious student or scholar of Scripture will find this
edition well worth having... [i Received my HRV by Yosef ben Ruach (Norman Willis); From: "James Trimm" <jstrimm@...> Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 ; Subject: I Received my HRV http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sanj-update/message/717]
In October 2005, I received an email from Norman Willis, stating that because of James Trimm's failure to deliver the HRV to other people, he no longer is associated with or endorses him. He had been giving Trimm the benefit of the doubt despite the many articles and reports discussing Trimm's business practices and beliefs. Norman wanted it known that he never benefited financially from the endorsement of the HRV and did not sell it directly, but rather his purpose in promoting it, "was trying to help foster interest in Hebraic Roots research." Apparently even the kabbalist teachings were not a recognized red flag of warning for many. Nor is there a distancing by Norman Willis, on the actual Shem Tov Matthew as a source of truth despite the facts concerning it. Willis had been a speaker at Koniuchowsky's conferences, events and his writings were endorsed and promoted by Koniuchowsky. See: Marshall Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky As noted in the article, Michael John Rood: Messianic Karaite Rabbi, Norman Willis also promoted Michael Rood's Calendar from his website, and advocated a one time tithe to Rood's associate, Nehemiah Gordon and his Karaite Korner, and tithes to these various leaders as being to the Levite priesthood. He also recounted Michael Rood donning priesthood garments in order to perform a ceremony with Willis. See: Michael Rood: WAY Colleagues, Occult Calendars & False Prophecies. There is also no mention of his disassociation from these or others he has been working with.
As stated previously, it seems that many in the Hebrew Roots movement are teaching that Jesus was a teacher, a good man, a prophet, a sage like many other sages, but many are not clearly confessing that He is, in fact, God.
Jeremiah 23:28-32
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
The problem with many in the "roots" movement is found in the desire to be unique. They long for an original Hebrew version of the New Testament, believing the Greek inadequate and often believing the propaganda of the Trimm and Rood's of this world, that all the Greek manuscripts results in corruption of translation. Unfortunately, because they have not been able to produce anything but a corrupted Hebrew copy of the Greek or Latin texts from late 1400's, they feel the need to try and insert [restore] Hebrew words into the Greek texts. Hence we have Trimms's HRV rendition, Koniuchowsky's rendition, and so on, all for those who willingly shell out the required fees.
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
The underlying sourcing of the various writings, like Shem Tob Matthew, etc., appears to be for the purpose of eliminating Scriptural truth about the Deity of Jesus Christ, and all that pertains to who He is and what He has done. That is not unusual. The Bible, which many denigrate and attempt to rewrite, reveals the spiritual condition of those who reject Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
Don't believe all of the internet conspiracy theories.
"Hopefully adults know that a lot of what they read on the web is just not right, and just not true. But kids don't know that, they read it and think that it says it, it must be true. It says its safe it must be true. This is how to do this, it must be true. There is no editor on the internet so people can put stuff out there that is just absolutely drop dead wrong."
Don't believe all of the internet conspiracy theories.
"Hopefully adults know that a lot of what they read on the web is just not right, and just not true. But kids don't know that, they read it and think that it says it, it must be true. It says its safe it must be true. This is how to do this, it must be true. There is no editor on the internet so people can put stuff out there that is just absolutely drop dead wrong."
There are many differences between the two translations, not the least of which are doctrinal differences. The HRV is at times more literal that the AEINT. In some passages the HRV is more correct that the AEINT. Also the HRV at times follows Hebrew underlying texts instead of Aramaic and at times follows older Aramaic sources than the Pedangta (which the AEINT always follows).
They are two very different translations. They exhibit agreement in many passages because they are both literal translations of the Pedangta and because the Concordance to the Pedangta Version of the Aramaic New Testament (1985) was used as a lexical tool in producing both translations. There is more, but much to much to post here.
There are many differences between the two translations, not the least of which are doctrinal differences. The HRV is at times more literal that the AEINT. In some passages the HRV is more correct that the AEINT. Also the HRV at times follows Hebrew underlying texts instead of Aramaic and at times follows older Aramaic sources than the Pedangta (which the AEINT always follows).
They are two very different translations. They exhibit agreement in many passages because they are both literal translations of the Pedangta and because the Concordance to the Pedangta Version of the Aramaic New Testament (1985) was used as a lexical tool in producing both translations. There is more, but much to much to post here.
James, apparently there are enough similarities between the 2 texts that TWI noticed.
I probably will not aquaint myself with the specifics of your case to comment on specifics.
But I am fully convinced that after The Way International has played fast and loose with many, many copyright infringement issues for many decades that hearing them bring a copyright infringement suit smacks of the very worst hypocrisy and worthless values on their part IMO.
As such I wish you well except for that small part where I really have no idea how you yourself have operated in regards to any of this. :B)
If the Way International lawyers become responsible for a whole new level of annoying and disrespectful lawsuits within Bible Scholar circles it may IMHO be the most damaging thing they have done so far to society as a whole.
Certainlty their lawyers would be happy pioneering and expanding a whole new area of litigation within society. While I don't like how they may feel that way I can understand it.
I despise how The Way international is litigious, and if this suit brings a whole new class of needless court interfeerence into religious matters I will despise The Way international for it even more than I despise their actions so far.
I don't think its twi's lawyers.. more like rosie's lawyers.. I understand the bot and staff tows the line in respect to every wicked mandate she issues..
"well. There's a little crummy group we can easily pick on and win.. We need to *prevail*, and win one for da gipper. ahem, I mean the vicster. I *suggest* we go forward and litigate.. what do you think?"
"yass boss" "yeppers boss.." "fo shure boss..."
"good. let's have a vote then.."
The irony of all this.. there is probably nobody left in the organization who can even read aramaic, nor even recognize the alphabet..
The only thing that would make sense here, to me..
rosie happened to be the reincarnation of Newton, of course without the intellect..
The guy's a hoot! showed up in his other thread asking for scans of a few pages of the PFAL book. I teased him a bit - but thought - what the hell, maybe he'll go away if he gets what he wants.
He did.
He didn't say thank you, and hasn't posted since.
Cake anyone?
Edited to reflect:
Just after posting this, I got a thank you note in my mail from James
The guy's a hoot! showed up in his other thread asking for scans of a few pages of the PFAL book. I teased him a bit - but thought - what the hell, maybe he'll go away if he gets what he wants.
He did.
He didn't say thank you, and hasn't posted since.
Cake anyone?
I apologize for not having sent a thank you, I got bogged down in all the preparations I am involved in with this case.
Your scans were VERY helpful.
I am guarded in how much I say about our arguments until those arguments have been made before the court.
I apologize for not having sent a thank you, I got bogged down in all the preparations I am involved in with this case.
Your scans were VERY helpful.
I am guarded in how much I say about our arguments until those arguments have been made before the court.
Ya, WordWolf pretty much nailed it down. The Way International does have one individual who is paid to surf Grease Spot and report to Rosalie, sometimes even printing off posts and such since she doesn't keep a computer in her office. So rest assured anything you say can and will be used against you...lol...I tell you what search the forums for WayGB to see what I mean. I wish you all the best toasting their butts in court James Trimm.
If the Way International lawyers become responsible for a whole new level of annoying and disrespectful lawsuits within Bible Scholar circles it may IMHO be the most damaging thing they have done so far to society as a whole.
Certainlty their lawyers would be happy pioneering and expanding a whole new area of litigation within society. While I don't like how they may feel that way I can understand it.
I despise how The Way international is litigious, and if this suit brings a whole new class of needless court interfeerence into religious matters I will despise The Way international for it even more than I despise their actions so far.
I don't think its twi's lawyers.. more like rosie's lawyers.. I understand the bot and staff tows the line in respect to every wicked mandate she issues..
"well. There's a little crummy group we can easily pick on and win.. We need to *prevail*, and win one for da gipper. ahem, I mean the vicster. I *suggest* we go forward and litigate.. what do you think?"
"yass boss" "yeppers boss.." "fo shure boss..."
"good. let's have a vote then.."
The irony of all this.. there is probably nobody left in the organization who can even read aramaic, nor even recognize the alphabet..
The only thing that would make sense here, to me..
rosie happened to be the reincarnation of Newton, of course without the intellect..
Hi Ham!
Beteen my post and yours something stuck in my craw, and it was remembering how Geer credited himself with great detective work and blamed the lawyers in "The Passing of the Patriarch".
What a fool I was to believe Geer, he actually took credit for blaming the lawyers for being good lawyers.....yep.....they actually managed to figure out how they could beat the Swiss Cantons.
For me in this case I had to deal with this whole idea only to discover another instance of TWI spin and lies.
I don't blame the lawyers for wanting to explore groundbreaking areas of litigation. That's what good lawyers are expected to do....DUH! I only hope that if this case is as advertised that a wise judge would shut this area of litigation down before it becomes the new trend in religious circles.....what a freakin mess that would be.
In this case I'm happy to lay the lay the lion's share of the blame on the rightful recipient with you Ham, I'll point right at Rosie too! :)
Ya, WordWolf pretty much nailed it down. The Way International does have one individual who is paid to surf Grease Spot and report to Rosalie, sometimes even printing off posts and such since she doesn't keep a computer in her office. So rest assured anything you say can and will be used against you...lol...I tell you what search the forums for WayGB to see what I mean. I wish you all the best toasting their butts in court James Trimm.
Thank for letting me know that I know that troll is still around. Got a message for ya! Hey johnny how is the family since they found out you and your wife are in a cult! catch me if you can. nah, nah nah nah nah nah nah!
so now that the gov is forcin us to buy med ins. and the dept of energy is gonna make us get a carbon foot print permit on our houses it dont surprize mee that they want to tell us how we will interprit scripture after all the head commie (obama) has said he dont like that "BILL OF RIGHTS" ! lest satan should get an advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices. heres the anti global warming , man cant destroy the earth scripture 2Peter 3:7 !!! i still go to way fellowships and its awesome especially cause martindale aint around with his heavy handed man made law agenda ! i drop by ever so often and i dont go tell the way whats typed here. just look for old friends and check out the news. glad i saw this gov telling me how i can read the bible. i wonder how long before they tell us we cant have home fellowships ? they just did that in rancho cocamonga ca. near ontario. they shut somebodys (not way a fellowship) bible fellowship down about a month ago. it was in the la times newspaper. the local politicians told them they will to get a permit , obtain an enviromental impact report , etc. etc. ! the devil never stops and wants to shut those down that TEACH and PREACH THE WORD ! if you are speaking the word the devil will try to shut you down ! that goes for ANYONE regardless of what ministry you be with ! gotta stop these commies from taking our freedom away or it will become like the king harad stuff ! RIP Skip Mesquite
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mstar1
Hi Rock THIS SITE lists them as different people with different skill sets and different 'gifts' <_< :) It lists Rood as a "False Prophet", while Trimm is a "pathological liar"
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Hi Shift I hope that you stick around! Its great to remeber why I left. They (the bible study folks) got in a hit and run accident with a neighbors car if you read the article.. as they had no park
mstar1
Im not a lawyer but I would think that there would be some legal boundaries beyond "whatever". Fundamentalist Mormons are not legally free to exercise their belief in plural marriage. David Koresh ty
penworks
This is astonishing.
A post was made about this lawsuit awhile ago: Check here: Lawsuit about Way's Aramaic Interlinear
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WordWolf
This thread is misnamed.
It's about how the courts acknowledged James Trimm plagiarized one of the few things
the way international DIDN'T plagiarize themselves,
and how James Trimm doesn't like that.
http://www.seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm
James Trimm's Hebrew Roots Version (HRV) title page stated he translated Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts for his New Testament.
"A translation of the "New Testament" taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts."
That would mean that one would find all books of the New Testament in the original manuscripts of Aramaic and Hebrew. One would also find that these sources would be valid and recognized as authentic and would also not be known as translations of the Greek manuscripts by authoritative scholars.
James Trimm announced various times on various forums, such as his SANJ forum at Yahoo:
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 0:49pm
Subject: HRV Bible Coming Soon
... The HRV translation of the New Testament is translated out of the ORIGINAL HEBREW AND ARAMAIC and is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic Manuscripts NOT THE GREEK....
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:27pm
Subject: Restoring Original Hebrew/Aramaic NT
....Unlike most translations this edition is not rooted in a Greek Hellenistic text. Instead this translation seeks to understand the text of the New Testament from the languages in which it was originally written. This is important because there are some passages in the NT which do not make sense at all in Greek, but only begin to make sense when we look at them in Hebrew and Aramaic:.." 1
James Trimm also stated that for the New Testament he used, " the Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts rather than the Greek. The HRV reaches back to the original text of the Tanak by making use not only of the Masoretic Text, but of the Massorah, the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak, the Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch, the Greek Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls." And , "The HRV "New Testament" text is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts. (Shem Tob, DuTillet and Muster Hebrew Matthew; Munster Hebrew Hebrews; The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels; The Aramaic Pedangta NT and the Crawford Aramaic Revelation.) and has over 1,700 footnotes. "...The HRV Tanak it translated primarily from the Hebrew Masoretic Text contains many footnotes giving important alternate readings from the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts; the Samaritan Pentateuch; the Greek Septuagent; the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak and the Aramaic Targums." 2
Trimm posted a page of Sources which supposedly revealed where he obtained his documentation. 3 After consulting with professors regarding James Trimm's stated Sources for "translating" the HRV, it was stated to this writer, that it is obvious that in order to even read/utilize the listed source texts one would have to know, "at a minimum, Hebrew, Syriac, and Greek (to be able to judge the accuracy of the Hebrew and/or Syriac translation of the Greek NT)."
These are the opinions, collectively, of real professors who head Religious Departments in major Universities, who have doctorates in Middle East studies and so on. These are the academics who know what would be needed in order to translate a Bible and also be able to utilize the resources James Trimm claims to have used.
Some might suggest that James Trimm would not need knowledge of Greek because he rejects the Greek New Testament.
It's been stated by people fluent in Aramaic and Hebrew that James is not in the least fluent in those languages. Some have posted various writings and asked him to translate on the spot, and he has been unable to. Nor can he dialogue in those languages.
For example: Uri-Yosef, Born, raised, and educated in Israel. His credentials include, "Language skills: Fluent in Hebrew, German, and English. Good facility in Yiddish. Knowledge (at various levels) of Arabic, Aramaic, Portuguese, and Spanish. Also have knowledge of American Sign Language (ASL)." Although a counter-missionary advocate, his background in Hebrew is enough to reveal that James Trimm does not know Hebrew and Aramaic fluently.
"....PS - As to what Yatziv Patgam said, it actually took place on Trimm's "home turf", in the Messianic Q&A chat on PalTalk, into which I was invited to come and challenge him. With one simple question in simple Hebrew I demonstrated that James Trimm, who has claimed to be fluent in Hebrew and Aramaic, knew less Hebrew than the average Israeli child in pre-school (i.e., 3-4 year old). Later, I also asked him to provide Hebrew Bible support to some theological issue that he was touting, and he quickly back-pedaled and admitted that no direct verses exist to support his claim but, when a bunch of verses are interpretted in a certain way, they would support what he was claiming which, of course, was a bunch of nonsense...." http://pub157.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm1.showNextMessage?topicID=265.topic
Regarding Aramaic, from the Pedangta.org, we read of interaction with Paul Younan, who was raised in the Assyrian culture and is fluent in Aramaic.
Paul Younan
5. "RE: Dr. Trimm on AramaicNT.org"
Jun-08-2003 at 05:39 PM (GMT3)
Hi Akhi,
To be completely honest with you, I find it very annoying to argue with someone who can't even speak Aramaic, about Aramaic.
James Trimm is a student. He learned whatever little he knows from reading books. That's not a bad thing. What is bad is when he sets himself up as some sort of authority on the topic, which he is not.
What's worse is that he insists on arguing with me about the meaning of words he has no clue about, about a language that is completely foreign to him and that he can't even hold a 30-second discussion in, face-to-face.
...Furthermore, James Trimm has absolutely no credentials to be calling himself a "Dr.", and you shouldn't address him is as such, either. That gives people the wrong impression, but that's your choice.
Nobody who really knows a spit of Aramaic pays any attention to him, as Dr. Kiraz will attest to you...Paul Younan, Pedangta.org"
http://www.pedangta.org/forums/forumid6/1952.html
And surprisingly, James Trimm has never claimed to know Greek, although he has made claims to have a Doctorate in Semitic Studies and Linguistics. However, James Trimm has consistently used Greek New Testament, via Strong's, quotes in many of his forum and article discussions as to why the Greek is translated incorrectly and therefore not the original language of the New Testament. He also states he used "the Greek Septuagint." Hence he would indeed have to have knowledge of Greek to utilize the various resources and also make those critical assumptions.
What James failed to list in his translation resources was The Way International Bible. James Trimm also neglected to mention that in 1993 he put out a request on the internet, for a copy of that Version.
James Trimm's The Way International Request
From: James.Trimm@f18.n104.z1.fidonet.org (James Trimm)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: WAY INTL & ARAMAIC NT
Message-ID: <Dec.6.06.15.28.1993.14707@athos.rutgers.edu>
Date: 6 Dec 93 11:15:28 GMT
...CALLING ALL MEMBERS AND EX-MEMBERS OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL!
I am looking for members and ex-members of The Way International. As you may know, the late Dr. Wierwille, founder of The Way International, taught that the NT was originally written in Aramaic, that the Pedangta Aramaic NT is an important witness to the NT text, and that research tools on this subject are badly needed. As the following quotes demonstrate:
"...Aramaic was the original language in which the New Testament was written..."-- Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille; Twenty-fifth Anniversay Souvenir Booklet, p. 17.
"For centuries, the Greek versions of the New Testament have recieved their due attention while the Aramaic versions, for the most part, have been neglected. Discoveries in textual criticism in the last 150 years, however, have shown the Pedangta [Aramaic] text,... and other versions play as vital a role as the Greek in ascertaining the original New Testament text... In recent times some scholars have demonstrated that a Palestinian Aramaic original lies behind the Greek versions of New Testament documents.... research tools of the Pedangta [Aramaic] Version are essential to this task."-- Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille; The Concordance to the Pedangta Version of the Aramaic New Testament; p. ix
If you are interested in this type of research we would like to hear from you.
HEBREW/ARAMAIC NEW TESTAMENT RESEARCH INSTITUTE
"Researching & publishing Hebrew and Aramaic N.T. manuscripts"
... Hebrew/Aramaic New Testament Research Institute
PO Box 471
Hurst, TX 76053..." 4 [spelling as seen]
In various forum discussions, there was reference to the late Herb Jahn. Jahn's version of the New Testament was called, The Aramaic New Covenant, and was claimed by Jahn "to be the only literal translation/transliteration made from the original Aramaic, the variant of the Hebrew language spoken by Jesus and His disciples."
At one point in the early stages of the preparation of Jahn's "The Aramaic New Covenant", Herb hired James Trimm to assist him in its preparation. He had hired James Trimm to help him "translate", and Trimm stated,
"... Originally Mr. Jahn hired me to do the translation. We signed the contracts and all went well for about three months. ... Jahn had obtained the Way Intl. Interlinear edition and decided he could use that to produce his version. Jahn himself does not know a word of Aramaic. Jahn's previous project, the exoGesis study bible provides his translation from the Heb. O.T. and Greek N.T.. Jahn does not know Hebrwew or Greek but looked up EVERY word in a Strong's and made sure that each word was always translated with the same english word (regardless of context). Jahn had also heard that Hebrew has no tenses so he put the ENTIRE OT portion in the present tense...." 5 (spelling as shown)
James Trimm referenced the Syriac Pedangta documents of Agnes Smith Lewis, as one of his sources. A Pedangta translator, who was one of the original Way International's Research Team, has published the Way's Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament of the Pedangta. The internet version varies slightly from the Way International's translation. The base texts for the Way translation included Agnes Smith's Pedangta.
It recently has been alleged that the HRV is a plagiarism of the Way Interlinear Bible. Researcher Kathryn Kern contacted the people involved, and has done comparison of Trimm's HRV with passages of the Way International Interlinear. I'm sure the investigating authorities will also look seriously at that issue. The original Way translation was authorized by Paul Victor Wierwille, a man who openly denied the Deity of the Messiah, and authored the book "Jesus is not God". What James Trimm may not have realized is that the Way Research team did try to remove some of Wierwille's bias from their version, and according to Dr. John Juedes, were fairly successful.
While researcher Kathryn Kern and myself are not fully in agreement doctrinally, her desire to seek the Truth is evident. Her research on James Trimm has also been extensive. Kathryn has also recommended that people contact the following authorities, if James Trimm has refused to refund monies to Yeshiva students or purchasers of his products. Her statement:
Since James has refused refunds to those requesting them, due to his misrepresentation of his abilities and his plagiarism, I have provided avenues for the victims to seek restitution. I suggest filing with both, since they are two different agencies.
Randy Cook at one of the following , brcook@uspis.gov , (817)317-3460, P.O. Box 162929, Keller, TX 76161-2929
Randy Cook works for the United States Postal Inspectors office since mailing out the HRV, based on false advertising qualifies as mail fraud.
Greg Abbott, Attorney General of Texas, P.O. Box 12548, Austin, TX 78711
David Linkletter of Texas Higher Education can also be contacted, regarding the Yeshiva issues.
James Trimm has defended George Lamsa, and in fact has been on the board of the Aramaic Bible Society which pushes Lamsa's writings and theology. We find that his friend Bishop Don de Cordova aka Don Hargis are "both" part of that organization as well. George Lamsa, a close friend to Way International founder Victor Wierwille, was instrumental in the development of The Way International's theology and writings.
The Lamsa connection
That same year, Wierwille began to study the Aramaic Bible, believing that Aramaic was the language which Christ Himself spoke and in which the original Bible was written (most scholars believe that it was actually written in Greek). He met George Lamsa, translator of the Aramaic Biblical Texts , and they began to work together on study of the Aramaic translation. Wierwille believed that the best way to know the truth revealed in the Bible was to know it the way it was originally written. (Melton, 1986: 206)
Sacred or Revered Texts:
The Bible (Aramaic version). Wierwille's writings, such as Jesus Christ is Not God are also considered important. Emphasis is also placed on the works of George Lamsa, including The Holy Bible From Ancient Eastern Manuscripts . Other important books include the writings of Indian bishop KC Pilla: The Orientalisms of the Bible and Light Through an Eastern Window . (Melton, 1986: 208)" 6
Lamsa actually lived with Wierwille for a time. Victor Wierwille, leader of The Way, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ and his writings reflected that belief. He, along with Michael Rood, Trimm and many others, promoted the primacy of the Aramaic. Others would simply suggest that Aramaic or Syriac versions provide an interesting study alongside the original Greek and should not be excluded for that reason.
Dr. John Juedes, in discussion of Victor Wierwille's sources of theology, wrote in, A CLOSE LOOK AT SOME OF THE WAY'S TEACHINGS:
Arguing from Aramaic
A presupposition behind much of Wierwille's exegesis is the primacy of Aramaic. In fact, Wierwille and The Way freely alter much of the New Testament text, such as Matthew 27:46 and the Hebrews 11 passages mentioned above by an appeal to Aramaic. Their basis is the forthright assertion that the Testament was written originally in Aramaic, not Greek .47 They refer extensively to the Estrangelo Aramaic, or Syriac versions and to the Pedangta version as translated by Dr. George M. Lamsa.
Reputable modern scholarship unanimously rejects the notion that the Syriac was the language of the autographs, although some suggest that many of Jesus' sayings were first recorded in an Aramaic dialect of Israel. However, the only conclusion that fits the evidence is that the Syriac versions were translated from original Greek writings.
Evidence against the Syriac being the original language of the New Testament is quite conclusive. First, Aramaic has continually changed over the 30-plus centuries of its existence. Numerous dialects have existed simultaneously. Palestine was home for recognizable variations, including the Galilean dialect which Jesus space the Samaritan dialect, and the Southern dialect spoken around Jerusalem. Odessa, the focus of Syriac and its major New Testament versions, was over five times as far from Jerusalem as Galilee was. Hence, Edessan Aramaic (classed as an eastern Aramaic) was far different from the Palestinian Aramaic dialects of the apostles (classed as western dialects). Second, the 100-200 years of change between the time of the apostles and the Syriac brought more differences. In fact, the area of Odessa, about 150 miles from the coast, was not even evangelized, much less established in Christianity, until after A.D. 116, long after the New Testament was written. Third, Koine Greek was used universally around the Mediterranean and was known as a second language even by farmers of less Hellenized areas, More than half of the Old Testament passages found in the New Testament are quoted from the Greek Septuagint, not from an Aramaic targum or Hebrew text of the day. Even the Gospel of Matthew, written by a Jew for Jews, quotes more than half of its Old Testament passages from the Septuagint.4' Of 29 inscriptions found on ossuaries on Mt. Olive, 11 are Greek, 11 are Aramaic, and 7 are Hebrew.
In addition, the apostles and the Jews around them were well acquainted with Greek. The New Testament writers wanted not only Israel, but all nations, to believe. There is no reason for them to have written in a little known, politically and racially colored local dialect when the universally known Koine Greek existed.
The Pedangta, respected highly by The Way, is an inferior biblical text. It was not an original or even a new translation of the Greek New Testament, but was a late fourth-century revision of the superior Syriac versions based on later inferior Greek texts. It also lacks 11 Peter, 11 and III John, Jude, and Revelation. The Estrangelo Aramaic it represents is not a language in itself as The Way International leads one to believe. Instead it is one of many scripts or styles of writing that was applied to Aramaic and prevailed in the fourth and fifth centuries A.D.50
Dr. Lamsa's translation of the Pedangta, respected by The Way, displays many weaknesses. He paid little attention to variant readings that would improve its text, used unidentified "later Aramaic texts" to supply missing portions and, in places, copies the King James Version. The forms of Aramaic he is acquainted with are quite removed from that of Jesus' time." Unfortunately, The Way spends an enormous amount of energy and places a great deal of weight on the unfounded theory of Aramaic originals, ne un supportability of this theory results in the collapse of many of Wierwille's interpretations.
...Abuse of Greek syntax and manuscripts is the second category of Wierwille's defective methodology. His misuse is apparent in the examples discussed above: ignorance of genitives of aim, mid-sentence alterations of word meaning, the superfluous distinction between "faith" and believing," and imposed parentheses that wrongly segment biblical sections. His knowledge of Hebrew linguistic style is no better, as his misapplication of Isaiah 43:7 shows. In order to use Greek manuscripts to his full advantage, he also promotes inferior research tools and false principles of textual criticism.
Glaring inconsistencies mark The Way's manipulations of Greek texts. On the one hand, The Way revises the text of John 21:19 on the basis of MS 31, claiming that this thirteenth-century manuscript was based on an earlier, "correct" text. This approach refutes Wierwille's revisions of I John 5:7, 1 Timothy 3:16, Galatians 4:6, and John 1: 18 (which he alters to deny Christ's deity). If MS 31 were based on an earlier, "correct" text, then by the same principle MSS 61, 88, 629, and 635, which support the KJV reading of I John 5:7, were also based on earlier, correct texts and should be accepted.
...Wierwille also misuses Greek texts by setting a lone good source in opposition to all other MSS (as in Gal. 4:6) and by placing a few MSS of low reliability above MSS of greater quality and number (as in John 1:18). Proper textual criticism does not scrape up any MS evidence in existence regardless of quality in order to back a preconceived interpretation, as The Way does...
Wierwille's third false key of research is his claim that the New Testament was authored in Aramaic, then translated into Greek, Some passages, such as the above-mentioned Matthew 27:46 and Hebrews 11 verses, he claims were erroneously translated, and he offers his own "accurate" translation. He also manipulates Orientalisms to his advantage, as in Philippians 2:6. He uses both "Aramaic originals" and "Orientalisms" to avoid passages that oppose his preconceived theology.
Wierwille gives no concrete evidence to support his theories of Aramaic originals nor of mistranslations into Greek. At best, he argues from silence, which is the weakest of contentions. No Aramaic originals are extant, and all of the earliest New Testament manuscripts that have been recovered are in Greek, not Aramaic. The overwhelming evidence favors Greek, not Aramaic originals. Semitisms and Aramaic words found in the New Testament are not traces of Aramaic originals. Rather, they reveal the historic reality of the language Jesus most often ministered in, as well as literary fullness and the Semitic backgrounds and ways of thinking that the Jewish authors were used to." 7
When James Trimm appears to have used The Way International Bible for at least a source for his "translation" of his Hebrew Roots Version, he made a connection to the foundational theology of false prophet Michael John Rood. Roods beginnings and many of his current teachings are linked directly to Way International theology. But more than that. People who work together and believe together, are joined together. It has been alleged that Chris Lingle and Eric Sandquist were both reportedly 'former' Way International members and worked, and Sandquist continues to work, with James Trimm. If true, that means they also, at least while in The Way, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ.
James Trimm's claim to translate from the original Hebrew manuscripts is also not academically accurate. The supposed Hebrew Matthews or Shem Tob Matthew are from the 1400-1500 range CE. Precisely, ShemTob is dated 1380, while DuTillet and Muenster are about 1550. Together they make up the "Middle Ages Matthews" but, they are very different, and as one stated, that is one of the ironies. Hugh Schonfeld and James Trimm mostly push DuTillet. Michael Rood and George Howard promote the Shem Tob version. The Greek Matthew is from the 250-400 CE range. And so it goes. For more in-depth on the Shem Tov analysis please see :Newsflash! "Raiders" of Nothing of Value Michael Rood of A Rood Awakening and Nehemia Gordon, US Speaking Tour January 2005
Shem Tob's "Matthew", which any textual critic will tell you, is nothing more than a corrupted medieval text, which was a corrupt copy of the Greek or Latin text. It is also used extensively in footnotes in James Trimm's HRV, and never identifies Jesus as the Christ such as is seen in Matthew 1:1, "these are the generations of Jesus..." rather than the KJV's, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David,..." etc.
NKJV 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
Hugh Schonfields 1:1 These are the generations of Yeshua, the son of David, the son of Avraham
Trimm's HRV 1:1 These are the generations of Yeshua, the son of David, the son of Avraham
Aside from never acknowledging Jesus as the Christ and omitting phrasing that confirms His Deity, Shem Tob Matthew also has many other doctrinal changes, including elimination of verses.
Trimm quotes and sources Hugh Schonfield works, including his, An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel, which suggests that Hebrew, not Greek, is the original text of the New Testament. Hugh Schonfield is best known for his writing, The Passover Plot, which uses every argument to show why the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ were not as stated in the Scriptures. He looks at the Scriptures as 'legends', and wishes to set believers free from destructive teachings and deceptions and their "fairy dust called faith." 8
Schonfield suggests in The Passover Plot, that if people, ".... depend entirely on the New Testament they cannot form a correct judgment of Jesus.” 9 “The authors, had to write up their subject with rather meager resources of documentation and living recollection” 10
He then suggested, in spite of New Testament Scriptures which declare the writings to be by revelation of the Holy Spirit, that, “Actually we are better placed now than they [the New Testament writers]” 11
Schonfield shows us his way to finding the 'truth', writing,
“...To reach conclusions which can fairly be regarded as corresponding as nearly as possible to the reality entails a vast amount of analysis and comparisons, the patient piecing together of a host of hints and scraps of tradition, and in particular a sympathetic involvement in the affairs of the Jewish people and detachment from considerations of Christian theology.” 12
In what becomes his speculation and actual denunciation of the Scriptural account of Jesus Christ, Schonfield writes, “We are nowhere claiming for our reconstruction that it represents what actually happened.” 13 That speculation becomes an exercise to destroy the validity of the Scriptures, the Deity of Jesus Christ, His crucifixion, His burial, His being raised from the dead and His ascension to the right hand of the Father. It attempts to destroy who Jesus Christ is, and the witness found in the New Testament.
It's common for all in these groups to reference David Stern's Complete Jewish Bible (CJB), which is not a literal translation of the original. Stern decided that the CJB would be better utilized, if he supplied a companion, which he called the Jewish New Testament Commentary [JNTC]. James Trimm has often referred to David Sterns commentary in his writings and has quoted it extensively, as he does the Shem Tob Matthew.
All in these groups seem to have promoted the ISR, or continue to do so. The ISR uses the Textus Receptus [NT] and the Masoretic text [OT] as it's base text. Those are the same base texts for the King James Version.
The ISR sources are also stated as being, "... The Old Covenant is based on the Massoretic Hebrew and Aramaic text, according to the 1937 edition of Kittel's Biblia Hebraica. The New Covenant is based on the Textus Receptus, being modified with the use of such other texts as the Nestle-Aland and Shem Tob, as seemed appropriate. ..." 14
Unfortunately, the ISR inserted their "choice" of sacred names, and then went on to use corrupted Alexandrian texts as well as Shem Tob Matthew, which ends up in a pseudo "corrupt" KJV version.
The ISR omits the reference to the Messiah's Deity [Theos/God] from 1 Timothy 3:16. They clearly did not follow the Received Text on this and other very definitive passage that illustrates the Deity of The Messiah. For those important verses such as Colossians 2:9, the ISR appears to have switched to the Alexandrian text, which is what the Westcott and Hort, Nestle Aland and other base texts are and which most new Bible translations are based on, such as the NIV. See: The Clapham Sect, The Ghost Society & The Word of God; Bible Versions: Topical Comparison Charts; etc.
"The Scriptures" (ISR), endorsed by James Trimm on various forums, as a good translation, is also endorsed and used by Tom Mitchell. It's also promoted and sold by Marshall Moshe Koniuchowsky, and Michael Rood and many others. Koniuchowsky and Norman Willis, and others, also sell or have in the past, sold or promoted Trimm's HRV.
It should be clarified that Norman Willis did not directly sell Trimm's HRV. Rather, his use and endorsement of it and James Trimm's writings on his website led him to tell people how and where they could obtain the HRV. On July 14, 2005, James Trimm posted an endorsement of the HRV from Norman Willis. In that endorsement Willis stated, "
"...At long last, I finally received my copy of James Trimm's Hebrew Roots Version of the Scriptures (the HRV). I must say that I am impressed. James Trimm has done his usual scholarly job of leaving a trail of high-quality, trackable notes...
I have not had time to go through the book entirely, but it appears that James Trimm has done a superior job. My only real comment is that I would like it very much if he were to come out with an HRV in a 'parallel edition,' with the English translation on
the left, and the Hebrew/Aramaic Text on the right (with all of the same footnotes and annotations). If he did that, I am certain I would trade up from my Artscroll Tanach.
The HRV appears not only to be a good translation, but it also contains very valuable commentary. It appears to be well worth having, and I am sure I will make good use of mine. James Trimm's scholarship has exceeded my expectations.
I understand that the book is available (and in stock) at http://www.aleftavjudaica.com/. You can also write to the owner of AlefTavJudaica, Dominick Zangla, at dominick@.... I believe that any serious student or scholar of Scripture will find this
edition well worth having... [i Received my HRV by Yosef ben Ruach (Norman Willis); From: "James Trimm" <jstrimm@...> Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 ; Subject: I Received my HRV http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sanj-update/message/717]
In October 2005, I received an email from Norman Willis, stating that because of James Trimm's failure to deliver the HRV to other people, he no longer is associated with or endorses him. He had been giving Trimm the benefit of the doubt despite the many articles and reports discussing Trimm's business practices and beliefs. Norman wanted it known that he never benefited financially from the endorsement of the HRV and did not sell it directly, but rather his purpose in promoting it, "was trying to help foster interest in Hebraic Roots research." Apparently even the kabbalist teachings were not a recognized red flag of warning for many. Nor is there a distancing by Norman Willis, on the actual Shem Tov Matthew as a source of truth despite the facts concerning it. Willis had been a speaker at Koniuchowsky's conferences, events and his writings were endorsed and promoted by Koniuchowsky. See: Marshall Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky As noted in the article, Michael John Rood: Messianic Karaite Rabbi, Norman Willis also promoted Michael Rood's Calendar from his website, and advocated a one time tithe to Rood's associate, Nehemiah Gordon and his Karaite Korner, and tithes to these various leaders as being to the Levite priesthood. He also recounted Michael Rood donning priesthood garments in order to perform a ceremony with Willis. See: Michael Rood: WAY Colleagues, Occult Calendars & False Prophecies. There is also no mention of his disassociation from these or others he has been working with.
As stated previously, it seems that many in the Hebrew Roots movement are teaching that Jesus was a teacher, a good man, a prophet, a sage like many other sages, but many are not clearly confessing that He is, in fact, God.
Jeremiah 23:28-32
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
The problem with many in the "roots" movement is found in the desire to be unique. They long for an original Hebrew version of the New Testament, believing the Greek inadequate and often believing the propaganda of the Trimm and Rood's of this world, that all the Greek manuscripts results in corruption of translation. Unfortunately, because they have not been able to produce anything but a corrupted Hebrew copy of the Greek or Latin texts from late 1400's, they feel the need to try and insert [restore] Hebrew words into the Greek texts. Hence we have Trimms's HRV rendition, Koniuchowsky's rendition, and so on, all for those who willingly shell out the required fees.
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
The underlying sourcing of the various writings, like Shem Tob Matthew, etc., appears to be for the purpose of eliminating Scriptural truth about the Deity of Jesus Christ, and all that pertains to who He is and what He has done. That is not unusual. The Bible, which many denigrate and attempt to rewrite, reveals the spiritual condition of those who reject Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
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WordWolf
Here's plenty of stuff about James Trimm's supposed Doctorate from an accredited institution.
He claims to have one, but no evidence for it seems to exist.
My, my, my. Reminds me of someone.
Plagiarists, by definition, seem to lack originality.
He plagiarized victor paul wierwille's sham doctorate as well as twi's book.
http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdoc.htm
http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdiploma.htm
Here's some stuff on James Trimm engaging in internet "sockpuppet" activity and other
dishonest practices, such as speaking out of both sides of his mouth
(telling group A one thing and group B the opposite.)
http://www.seekgod.ca/rabbiyosef.htm
==================================
Here's the cited case. Note it's specifically about copyright infringement,
not "regulation of Scripture interpretation"
(or "suppressing the truth" or whatever you'd like to mislabel it as.)
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-txndce/case_no-4:2009cv00338/case_id-187156/
======================================================
There's lots more on James Trimm on a number of websites, but I was getting tired just
skimming them, so I stuck to a few basics and one site.
Feel free to look over the rest.
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James Trimm
Don't believe all of the internet conspiracy theories.
"Hopefully adults know that a lot of what they read on the web is just not right, and just not true. But kids don't know that, they read it and think that it says it, it must be true. It says its safe it must be true. This is how to do this, it must be true. There is no editor on the internet so people can put stuff out there that is just absolutely drop dead wrong."
- Dr. Phil
Wed. 12-16-09
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Bolshevik
Hi James
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Tzaia
Please enlighten me (or anyone else).
Why don't you just sell the TWI work?
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George Aar
How's your supply of tinfoil hats holding up?
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James Trimm
There are many differences between the two translations, not the least of which are doctrinal differences. The HRV is at times more literal that the AEINT. In some passages the HRV is more correct that the AEINT. Also the HRV at times follows Hebrew underlying texts instead of Aramaic and at times follows older Aramaic sources than the Pedangta (which the AEINT always follows).
They are two very different translations. They exhibit agreement in many passages because they are both literal translations of the Pedangta and because the Concordance to the Pedangta Version of the Aramaic New Testament (1985) was used as a lexical tool in producing both translations. There is more, but much to much to post here.
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OldSkool
Egads.
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Tzaia
James, apparently there are enough similarities between the 2 texts that TWI noticed.
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JeffSjo
Hello James Trimm,
I probably will not aquaint myself with the specifics of your case to comment on specifics.
But I am fully convinced that after The Way International has played fast and loose with many, many copyright infringement issues for many decades that hearing them bring a copyright infringement suit smacks of the very worst hypocrisy and worthless values on their part IMO.
As such I wish you well except for that small part where I really have no idea how you yourself have operated in regards to any of this. :B)
If the Way International lawyers become responsible for a whole new level of annoying and disrespectful lawsuits within Bible Scholar circles it may IMHO be the most damaging thing they have done so far to society as a whole.
Certainlty their lawyers would be happy pioneering and expanding a whole new area of litigation within society. While I don't like how they may feel that way I can understand it.
I despise how The Way international is litigious, and if this suit brings a whole new class of needless court interfeerence into religious matters I will despise The Way international for it even more than I despise their actions so far.
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Ham
I don't think its twi's lawyers.. more like rosie's lawyers.. I understand the bot and staff tows the line in respect to every wicked mandate she issues..
"well. There's a little crummy group we can easily pick on and win.. We need to *prevail*, and win one for da gipper. ahem, I mean the vicster. I *suggest* we go forward and litigate.. what do you think?"
"yass boss" "yeppers boss.." "fo shure boss..."
"good. let's have a vote then.."
The irony of all this.. there is probably nobody left in the organization who can even read aramaic, nor even recognize the alphabet..
The only thing that would make sense here, to me..
rosie happened to be the reincarnation of Newton, of course without the intellect..
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Rocky
Are we sure that James Trimm is a real person? Might he really be Michael Rxxd?
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mstar1
Hi Rock
THIS SITE lists them as different people with different skill sets and different 'gifts' <_< :)
It lists Rood as a "False Prophet", while Trimm is a "pathological liar"
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Gen-2
The guy's a hoot! showed up in his other thread asking for scans of a few pages of the PFAL book. I teased him a bit - but thought - what the hell, maybe he'll go away if he gets what he wants.
He did.
He didn't say thank you, and hasn't posted since.
Cake anyone?
Edited to reflect:
Just after posting this, I got a thank you note in my mail from James
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James Trimm
I apologize for not having sent a thank you, I got bogged down in all the preparations I am involved in with this case.
Your scans were VERY helpful.
I am guarded in how much I say about our arguments until those arguments have been made before the court.
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WordWolf
I will go so far as to say that anything posted here, including your best 'arguments',
are subject to replies by the posters, including possible refutation before the way international
even gets to you. Since twi has staffers ASSIGNED to read the GSC (which is often the sole
real source of news available to the few people still in twi about twi itself, since
twi maintains news blackouts), presenting your 'arguments' here will include presenting
them in advance to twi.
That having been said, this messageboard is one of the few places people will go to read
and discuss twi, so once any official judgements are made, feel free to post anything that's
a matter of public record and not confidential concerning the case. It will be discussed,
you may be disagreed with, but it will definitely be READ-which, I think, was one point
when you arrived here.
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waysider
Write:
The Teacher
P.O. Box 328
NK, Ohio
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OldSkool
Ya, WordWolf pretty much nailed it down. The Way International does have one individual who is paid to surf Grease Spot and report to Rosalie, sometimes even printing off posts and such since she doesn't keep a computer in her office. So rest assured anything you say can and will be used against you...lol...I tell you what search the forums for WayGB to see what I mean. I wish you all the best toasting their butts in court James Trimm.
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JeffSjo
Hi Ham!
Beteen my post and yours something stuck in my craw, and it was remembering how Geer credited himself with great detective work and blamed the lawyers in "The Passing of the Patriarch".
What a fool I was to believe Geer, he actually took credit for blaming the lawyers for being good lawyers.....yep.....they actually managed to figure out how they could beat the Swiss Cantons.
For me in this case I had to deal with this whole idea only to discover another instance of TWI spin and lies.
I don't blame the lawyers for wanting to explore groundbreaking areas of litigation. That's what good lawyers are expected to do....DUH! I only hope that if this case is as advertised that a wise judge would shut this area of litigation down before it becomes the new trend in religious circles.....what a freakin mess that would be.
In this case I'm happy to lay the lay the lion's share of the blame on the rightful recipient with you Ham, I'll point right at Rosie too! :)
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nyunknown
Ya, WordWolf pretty much nailed it down. The Way International does have one individual who is paid to surf Grease Spot and report to Rosalie, sometimes even printing off posts and such since she doesn't keep a computer in her office. So rest assured anything you say can and will be used against you...lol...I tell you what search the forums for WayGB to see what I mean. I wish you all the best toasting their butts in court James Trimm.
Thank for letting me know that I know that troll is still around. Got a message for ya! Hey johnny how is the family since they found out you and your wife are in a cult! catch me if you can.
nah, nah nah nah nah nah nah!
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shiftthis
ok thats part of the lyrics from a sonny boy willaimson song that was re=recorded by the new york dolls. i have already told everthing i dont know !
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shiftthis
so now that the gov is forcin us to buy med ins. and the dept of energy is gonna make us get a carbon foot print permit on our houses it dont surprize mee that they want to tell us how we will interprit scripture after all the head commie (obama) has said he dont like that "BILL OF RIGHTS" ! lest satan should get an advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices. heres the anti global warming , man cant destroy the earth scripture 2Peter 3:7 !!! i still go to way fellowships and its awesome especially cause martindale aint around with his heavy handed man made law agenda ! i drop by ever so often and i dont go tell the way whats typed here. just look for old friends and check out the news. glad i saw this gov telling me how i can read the bible. i wonder how long before they tell us we cant have home fellowships ? they just did that in rancho cocamonga ca. near ontario. they shut somebodys (not way a fellowship) bible fellowship down about a month ago. it was in the la times newspaper. the local politicians told them they will to get a permit , obtain an enviromental impact report , etc. etc. ! the devil never stops and wants to shut those down that TEACH and PREACH THE WORD ! if you are speaking the word the devil will try to shut you down ! that goes for ANYONE regardless of what ministry you be with ! gotta stop these commies from taking our freedom away or it will become like the king harad stuff ! RIP Skip Mesquite
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waysider
I don't see anything in that scripture to indicate that man can't make the planet uninhabitable.
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