seems to me, that of the many many ways scripture is viewed, there are perhaps 3 broad categories...
- scripture is NOT a story, it is truer than science!
- scripture IS a story, therefore it is worthless!
- scripture IS story, and is worth A LOT as such!
imho, the third option is the most valid, historically, practically, and otherwise...and is most likely to lead to the end of this seemingly endless and circular enmity between faith and reason, and an authentic restoration of the judeo-christian heritage.
seems to me, that of the many many ways scripture is viewed, there are perhaps 3 broad categories...
- scripture is NOT a story, it is truer than science!
- scripture IS a story, therefore it is worthless!
- scripture IS story, and is worth A LOT as such!
imho, the third option is the most valid, historically, practically, and otherwise...and is most likely to lead to the end of this seemingly endless and circular enmity between faith and reason, and an authentic restoration of the judeo-christian heritage.
I think I agree with you.
So would you say, for example, that God did NOT hurl large hailstones at retreating Amorites (see Joshua), or that Moses and the Levites did not, in fact, execute 3,000 "brothers, friends and neighbors" (Exodus)?
Because a non-literal reading would solve a lot of the problems I have with the OT stories.
I'm just curious what you think. I, myself, don't know what I think. :)
well, i cant say that God or Moses did or did not do this, that or the other things...but i can at least say that these stories exist in our histories.
and while this alone does not answer questions like "what does this or that part really mean?"...it at least solves a few other problems, and provides a new place to grow from.
seems to me, that of the many many ways scripture is viewed, there are perhaps 3 broad categories...
- scripture is NOT a story, it is truer than science!
- scripture IS a story, therefore it is worthless!
- scripture IS story, and is worth A LOT as such!
imho, the third option is the most valid, historically, practically, and otherwise...and is most likely to lead to the end of this seemingly endless and circular enmity between faith and reason, and an authentic restoration of the judeo-christian heritage.
to clarify...i dont think all books of the Bible are as storylike as others. Psalms, for example, is more like a songbook. Ecclesiastes is clearly more philosophical. And the NT has plenty of instructional writings. And there seems a place where story and history overlap. The Gospel story, or the story of Acts, for example.
It even seems that once one can accept the Bible as a body of many genres of folklore, one is able to freely and honestly compare them to other world scriptures without fear. Out of this freedom to compare comes degrees of clarity and insight regarding the Bible that was previously not possible from reading the Bible alone, even confirming the notion expressed in the Bible that there are forms of language and wisdom and understanding that transcend (but includes) all human language...such as how Christ has a name that is beyond all names...yet quite involved in all of them...and we can speak in a tongue that is beyond all languages and races. As if we are finally able to swim in the ocean of language we were once drowning in...maybe even surf the waves.
or rather he actually said that he was "disgusted by" the Intelligent Designer ("God" for shorthand) that brings so much death and misery to the ones he/it supposedly loves.
a "snip" from Oakspear..
why can't that be a valid question to be asked anyway.. no matter what forum it is in?
Just a thought..
so much of the "fokelore" people quote.. doesn't it include this kind of.. what's the word..
well.. you find it in the psalms.. all over the place..
why can't that be a valid question to be asked anyway.. no matter what forum it is in?
Just a thought..
so much of the "fokelore" people quote.. doesn't it include this kind of.. what's the word..
well.. you find it in the psalms.. all over the place..
are you looking for a word like "enigma?" "mystery?" "riddle?" "koan?"
somehow ends with a question mark...not a period?
sometimes i wonder if the great spiritual manifestion of the "word of wisdom" in scripture is not so much a supernatural power, but rather the extra-ordinary but oft-overlooked capacity to simply ask well.
Indeed many story books are useful to examine the human psyche.
Gulliver's Travels
bible story book
Animal Farm
Trouble is with the bible story book, not only is it not the Words of a God, but it is a book riddled with errors, anomalies and self-contradictions. e.g. -
In brief self acclaimed christians claim their story book Jesus ' died for our sins ' inherited from Adam? (cf. Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10, Rom. 5:12) KJV story book
Oops!
Story book Jesus isn't dead but raised and rewarded? (apparently?)
Story book Jesus can't die for us? (Ezek. 18:20) KJV story book
No one can inherit sins from father (Deut. 24:16, Ezek. 18:20) KJV story book
Being dependent from Day 1 on the Tree of Life to make one Immortal, death didn't come by way of Adam's alleged sins?
The story book is great as recycled paper or a paper weight.
The crux of the matter - with a story is always similar to the following examples:
If you have never personally seen the Eiffel Tower - you can argue it does not exist (people can lie and pictures can be faked)
George Washington never existed There never was an American Revolution, you can't prove me wrong you weren't there, all your sources ARE lies.
There never was such a person as Elvis Presley, it's all made up.
Americans never set foot on the moon, it's all a lie
There really was a Giant man named Paul Bunyan and he really did travel America with a great big bright blue Ox.
Everything we do not personally witness is a story. Your mind decides to believe it, or not. If you don't and others do, you consider it folklore, myth, urban legend.
It even seems that once one can accept the Bible as a body of many genres of folklore, one is able to freely and honestly compare them to other world scriptures without fear. Out of this freedom to compare comes degrees of clarity and insight regarding the Bible that was previously not possible from reading the Bible alone, even confirming the notion expressed in the Bible that there are forms of language and wisdom and understanding that transcend (but includes) all human language...such as how Christ has a name that is beyond all names...yet quite involved in all of them...and we can speak in a tongue that is beyond all languages and races. As if we are finally able to swim in the ocean of language we were once drowning in...maybe even surf the waves.
well said sirg, thanks
the water of the word, presented quite brilliantly
The crux of the matter - with a story is always similar to the following examples:
If you have never personally seen the Eiffel Tower - you can argue it does not exist (people can lie and pictures can be faked)
George Washington never existed There never was an American Revolution, you can't prove me wrong you weren't there, all your sources ARE lies.
There never was such a person as Elvis Presley, it's all made up.
Americans never set foot on the moon, it's all a lie
There really was a Giant man named Paul Bunyan and he really did travel America with a great big bright blue Ox.
Everything we do not personally witness is a story. Your mind decides to believe it, or not. If you don't and others do, you consider it folklore, myth, urban legend.
yes Todd my friend "enigma?" "mystery?" "riddle?" "koan?"
Composer than don't read it and read and read something other because I find God in everything and nothing
i love folklore, myth, urban legend myself Gen-2 and add the bible list and more
with love and a holy kiss Roy
The bible is a story book most entertaining if you want to believe at best 2nd hand self contradicting hearsay evidence and foolishly embrace it as literal.
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Gen-2
You don't believe in My God, so your points are moot. You believe in another god and when you see these things happening, you blame the God you don't believe in. A rather silly exercise. Thank You f
Composer
Sadly the story book paints a dismal picture of this alleged story book hypocrite and monster of a trinitarian god. (Even more monstrous than that of the Intelligent designer that has inflicted pestil
Sunesis
Composer, how long were you in TWI for?
sirguessalot
for what its worth...
seems to me, that of the many many ways scripture is viewed, there are perhaps 3 broad categories...
- scripture is NOT a story, it is truer than science!
- scripture IS a story, therefore it is worthless!
- scripture IS story, and is worth A LOT as such!
imho, the third option is the most valid, historically, practically, and otherwise...and is most likely to lead to the end of this seemingly endless and circular enmity between faith and reason, and an authentic restoration of the judeo-christian heritage.
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soul searcher
I think I agree with you.
So would you say, for example, that God did NOT hurl large hailstones at retreating Amorites (see Joshua), or that Moses and the Levites did not, in fact, execute 3,000 "brothers, friends and neighbors" (Exodus)?
Because a non-literal reading would solve a lot of the problems I have with the OT stories.
I'm just curious what you think. I, myself, don't know what I think. :)
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sirguessalot
well, i cant say that God or Moses did or did not do this, that or the other things...but i can at least say that these stories exist in our histories.
and while this alone does not answer questions like "what does this or that part really mean?"...it at least solves a few other problems, and provides a new place to grow from.
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waysider
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sirguessalot
to clarify...i dont think all books of the Bible are as storylike as others. Psalms, for example, is more like a songbook. Ecclesiastes is clearly more philosophical. And the NT has plenty of instructional writings. And there seems a place where story and history overlap. The Gospel story, or the story of Acts, for example.
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sirguessalot
Also...poetry. Plenty of spiritual poetry in all the books of the OT and NT.
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waysider
Yes, and none of which should necessarily negate its value.
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sirguessalot
Indeed
It even seems that once one can accept the Bible as a body of many genres of folklore, one is able to freely and honestly compare them to other world scriptures without fear. Out of this freedom to compare comes degrees of clarity and insight regarding the Bible that was previously not possible from reading the Bible alone, even confirming the notion expressed in the Bible that there are forms of language and wisdom and understanding that transcend (but includes) all human language...such as how Christ has a name that is beyond all names...yet quite involved in all of them...and we can speak in a tongue that is beyond all languages and races. As if we are finally able to swim in the ocean of language we were once drowning in...maybe even surf the waves.
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soul searcher
My favorite book of the bible, so far, is the first one I read: Lamentations. It sort of hooked me.
Solomon's Songs also.
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Ham
or rather he actually said that he was "disgusted by" the Intelligent Designer ("God" for shorthand) that brings so much death and misery to the ones he/it supposedly loves.
a "snip" from Oakspear..
why can't that be a valid question to be asked anyway.. no matter what forum it is in?
Just a thought..
so much of the "fokelore" people quote.. doesn't it include this kind of.. what's the word..
well.. you find it in the psalms.. all over the place..
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year2027
God first
thanks Sunesis and Todd and soul searcher and waysider and Ham
yes compare them to even Jack and beanstalk
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
are you looking for a word like "enigma?" "mystery?" "riddle?" "koan?"
somehow ends with a question mark...not a period?
sometimes i wonder if the great spiritual manifestion of the "word of wisdom" in scripture is not so much a supernatural power, but rather the extra-ordinary but oft-overlooked capacity to simply ask well.
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Composer
Indeed many story books are useful to examine the human psyche.
Gulliver's Travels
bible story book
Animal Farm
Trouble is with the bible story book, not only is it not the Words of a God, but it is a book riddled with errors, anomalies and self-contradictions. e.g. -
In brief self acclaimed christians claim their story book Jesus ' died for our sins ' inherited from Adam? (cf. Rom. 5:8, 1 Thess. 5:10, Rom. 5:12) KJV story book
Oops!
Story book Jesus isn't dead but raised and rewarded? (apparently?)
Story book Jesus can't die for us? (Ezek. 18:20) KJV story book
No one can inherit sins from father (Deut. 24:16, Ezek. 18:20) KJV story book
Being dependent from Day 1 on the Tree of Life to make one Immortal, death didn't come by way of Adam's alleged sins?
The story book is great as recycled paper or a paper weight.
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Gen-2
The crux of the matter - with a story is always similar to the following examples:
If you have never personally seen the Eiffel Tower - you can argue it does not exist (people can lie and pictures can be faked)
George Washington never existed There never was an American Revolution, you can't prove me wrong you weren't there, all your sources ARE lies.
There never was such a person as Elvis Presley, it's all made up.
Americans never set foot on the moon, it's all a lie
There really was a Giant man named Paul Bunyan and he really did travel America with a great big bright blue Ox.
Everything we do not personally witness is a story. Your mind decides to believe it, or not. If you don't and others do, you consider it folklore, myth, urban legend.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd and Composer and Gen-2
yes Todd my friend "enigma?" "mystery?" "riddle?" "koan?"
Composer than don't read it and read and read something other because I find God in everything and nothing
i love folklore, myth, urban legend myself Gen-2 and add the bible list and more
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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cman
well said sirg, thanks
the water of the word, presented quite brilliantly
a shining light of lights
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Steve Lortz
Brava! Brava!
Love,
Steve
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Composer
The bible is a story book most entertaining if you want to believe at best 2nd hand self contradicting hearsay evidence and foolishly embrace it as literal.
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year2027
God first
thanks cman and Steve and Composer
one could say that all knowledge science, math, fairy tails, and ...
there nothing that does have contracting in it
everything is hearsay
what evidence is there? none because everything is evidence
what is foolishly? everything
what can be embrace? everything
what is literal? everything and nothing
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Composer
Indeed that could be said because these things are written by men.
The bible is supposed to be the Words of a God given to men?
IF you want to equate the flawed writings of men and that your story book God also writes in the same flawed way then so be it.
IF that is the case then your story book God is as flawed as men!
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer
have you heard God has no hands to write
God does have hands nor legs
God is in this realm he over-shower it
God is like a shower or a mirror that gives a image of something in this realm
he has order everything long ago for greater good
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Composer
Proving it is all man's written words!
My Game, Set & Match!
Thank you!
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year2027
God first
thanks Composer
but God can be beyond the image
working in people hearts to bring about good
this is love
love is just a word
until you give it meaning
God gives it is meaning by loving us first
the self gives it meaning
a another person gives it meaning
book give it meaning
creation gives it meaning
even death gives it meaning
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
Dittos!
with love and a holy kiss Steve
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