The Bible is folklore,

[year2027]

God first

thanks everybody

The Bible is folklore, which doesn't mean it isn't true, says UC Berkeley folklorist

By Patricia McBroom, Public Affairs

BERKELEY--Were there 10, 11 or 12 commandments in the Old Testament?

How many women came to the Holy Sepulcher after the death of Jesus?

Which of four Gospel versions of the words written on the cross is true?

These questions and many others have worried Biblical scholars for centuries as they have tried to understand and rectify the multiple versions of stories in the ancient text.

Now, a well-known folklorist at the University of California, Berkeley, argues that the diversity in the Bible should be embraced as a central feature of the oral tradition from which it was generated.

"The Bible is folklore," said Alan Dundes, UC Berkeley professor of anthropology and folklore, in his recent book, "Holy Writ as Oral Lit: The Bible as Folklore."

"This doesn't mean the Bible isn't true, or that it isn't a sacred text," Dundes hastened to explain.

"It simply means that the Bible is oral literature that has been written down, and the nature of oral literature is that there must be two or more versions of any story."

He said the New Testament was written 70 years after the death of Jesus - more than enough time for several different versions of the same story to have arisen. To try to determine which is the "true" version is probably not productive, said Dundes.

Much past scholarship on the Bible has discussed folklore in the Old Testament, but relatively little has been done on the New Testament. Dundes said that ,to his knowledge, no one has ever said flatly that the entire text is folklore.

"People say this is a oral tradition, but then they proceed to search for one true variant," said Dundes. "In oral literature, there is no such thing.

"This is not meant to be disrespectful, but people should stop worrying about the discrepancies among the stories. They don't matter."

In his book, Dundes demonstrates that multiple versions exist for nearly every major episode in both the Old and New Testaments - the creation of woman, the flood, the Ten Commandments, the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, the names of the 12 disciples, the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord's Prayer, the words inscribed on the cross and the last words of Jesus, among others.

The story of the women who came to the sepulcher where Jesus was entombed, for example, has four variants in the Gospels, Dundes observed.

In John 20:1, Mary Magdalene came, with no mention of anyone else. In Matthew 28:1, Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" came together. In Mark 16:1-2, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome came. Finally, in Luke 21:1.9-10, the group included Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Joanna and "other women who came with them."

In addition to variation in the number of women who came, there also are four different versions of what they observed, said Dundes. The variants are either one or two men or one or two angels, either sitting or standing.

Indeed, it would be surprising if there were not such variation, Dundes said, adding that "each of the four versions has its own integrity.

"To a folklorist, it is utter folly to attempt to reconcile such diversity."

Moreover, Dundes observed that variations in the oral tradition were preserved in the Bible precisely because of its sacred nature.

"No one was allowed to mess with the text," he said."You didn't have some editor red-lining passages and rewriting them."

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Holy Writ as Oral Lit: The Bible as Folklore. By Alan Dundes. (Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 1999. Pp. viii 131, acknowledgements, bibliography, index, about the author, $15.95 paper).

A Prelude to Biblical Folklore: Underdogs and Tricksters. By Susan Niditch. (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 2000. First edition published as Underdogs and Tricksters: A Prelude to Biblical Folkore. New Voices in Biblical Studies. San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987. Pp. xx 186, preface to the paperback edition, acknowledgements, introduction, abbreviations, notes, bibliography, general index, scripture index, $15.00 paper)

These two books represent efforts to apply folklore studies to biblical literature from a folklore specialist and a biblical scholar. They underscore the applicability of folklore theory and its power to give biblical texts social and historical settings.

From his perspective as a folklore scholar, Dundes roundly criticizes biblical scholars who consistently see the Bible as a written document or collection of documents. Writing in a popular style, he applies basic principles of folklore studies to the Bible. He emphasizes that variation is the hallmark of oral literature and catalogs the various types of variation in biblical literature. He points out, for instance, that the repetitions or doublets that form a pillar for the Documentary Hypothesis (that is, the theory that the Pentateuch is compiled through the editing of four documentary strands) could just as easily be explained as resulting from the folkloric origins of the biblical narratives. The book is mostly a compilation of variations in biblical stories with brief commentary.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3732/is_200007/ai_n8901064/

SUSAN NIDITCH, Folklore and the Hebrew Bible (GBS; Minneapolis: Fortress, 1993). Pp. x + 117. Paper $9.

In matters of folklore, Susan Niditch is certainly one of the most knowledgeable among biblical scholars, and She packs a great deal into this book, which contains a review of the discipline of folklore and three case studies from the Hebrew Bible.

The review of folklore covers a lot of ground. After discussing the problem of oral literature and the Bible, N. proposes to define folklore in terms of the notion "traditional" and takes patterned repetition as its key feature. …

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited March 24, 2010 by year2027

[Composer]

I would concur that the bible is purely a man made self contradicting story book.

I do believe in an Intelligent Designer/ID (God for want of a better word) however it is unworthy of my worship. (Especially unworthy is the alleged trinitarian hypocrytical story book monster of a God.) as opposed to the ID monster of a God.

Cheers!

Edited March 31, 2010 by Composer

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

Yes God is more like father than any thing other

not a ruler but a father of kind that I will be some day

the bible and books just give us things think about what God would be like

right over wrong

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited March 31, 2010 by year2027

[Composer]

God first

thanks Composer

Yes God is more like father than any thing other

not a ruler but a father of kind that I will be some day

the bible and books just give us things think about what God would be like

right over wrong

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Sadly the story book paints a dismal picture of this alleged story book hypocrite and monster of a trinitarian god. (Even more monstrous than that of the Intelligent designer that has inflicted pestilence, earthquakes, diseases, death and suffering etc. on its creation.)

Going back to the story book monster and hypocrite by using the story book text itself that proves this. e.g. This god stepped in to save Isaac and trinitarians lead us to believe it stepped in to save itself when it was in disguise as a Godman babe Jesus but was no where to be found to save Abel and allowed the slaughter of other innocent babes, but protected its trinitarian self (apparently?)-(cf. Matt. 2:16) story book

Edited April 1, 2010 by Composer

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

All books are wrote by man and they man's were picture of how man see's God

God is said to be a good being who created man and all things

but God did not write the many books but people did to imagine how God is like

I am not a trinitarian

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Sunesis]

Composer, how long were you in TWI for?

[year2027]

God first

thanks Sunesis

I do not think Composer was ever in the Way Ministry

he a friend from another board

he a new friend but a friend

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[geisha779]

Hey Sunesis, :)

I once heard it said that . . . . . the triune nature of God is an affront to human pride. That always stuck with me, and coming from TWI it really resonated. God is pretty amazing.

I read this today and was really moved.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, and whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, and with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

[year2027]

God first

thanks Sunesis and geisha779

I ask him to come here from An Harvest Labourer

Whether he is a troll or not it does not matter

he is a human being

I have no right to judge another person

neither do you

i just wait and see

maybe you should let the board to take of itself

geisha yes that sounds good

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited April 1, 2010 by year2027

[Sunesis]

I get the message Roy, I'll butt out. Sorry I bothered you.

[year2027]

God first

thanks Sunesis

no problem my friend

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Ham]

Sadly the story book paints a dismal picture of this alleged story book hypocrite and monster of a trinitarian god. (Even more monstrous than that of the Intelligent designer that has inflicted pestilence, earthquakes, diseases, death and suffering etc. on its creation.)

just an observation. (it is not in the spirit of meanness or anything like that)

the trinitarians may have the same description for your god.. at least some of what you stated of theirs..

as far as pestilence, earthquakes, etc..

is it just possible that the same god who brings love, joy.. etc.. also is required to bring their contrasts?

it WOULD explain a few things.. not that I entirely am happy with the conclusion one might arrive at.. or the system of things itself..

[waysider]

If only it ended with, "They lived happily ever after."

[year2027]

God first

thanks Ham and waysider

is death a happy ending

no it a stage we must deal with

that why all good books teach us about the magic of life after death

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Ham]

what if you found about 99.9 percent of yourself burned off in about a half a second..

there are two things (or three) that generally follow something like that..

1. You don't care.. but you do. Does this make sense? You want to know what the crap just happened to you, but the result of inquiry has no relevance.

2. Since it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of difference to whatever of *you* that is left.. one may shamelessly seek explanations that may make sense from others, whether they think you are a "fruitcake" or not..

3.. I dunno. It involves a strange mix of 1 and 2..

so the best explanation I got from a dear friend.. "don't look into the light.. that's what we were taught.. you'll get BURNED.."

I already figured that out.. heh.

but I'd do it all over again.. I'd go back there again.. but the first encounter was by pure chance..

I hope I didn't ruin your thread here, friend..

:)

[Ham]

Hmm. How about a similar question.. where did *you* come from? Well.. "I was created.." to which I ask.. where is freedom of will in this.. I mean.. did you actually want or agree to this, to begin with?

then some might cite Jeremiah's counter to this question.. I wouldn't say the answer is exactly "satisfying"..

that always seems to be the problem with living clay..

the *secret* (if there really is one) I think.. innately, we know who we are, where we came from.. just not to let it drive us nuts..

[Ham]

I think Jeremiah was a wonderful philosopher, when he wasn't caught up in religious bigotry..

same for those who came after him..

[year2027]

God first

thanks Ham

no my friend you did not miss up a thing

i like when you ask what seems like a unanswerable question

is the burning that you are afraid of

i saw myself out of my own body while still in it

that the stage we hope for

but what there none knows what will be next

nothing because we are death

that death

what I come from? nothing and something is the answer I have

right or wrong I do not know

it only the stage I am at

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Edited April 2, 2010 by year2027

[year2027]

God first

thanks Ham

I like Jeremiah too

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Composer]

God first

thanks Ham

I like Jeremiah too

with love and a holy kiss Roy

Yes Jeremiah 17:9 story book is also very interesting.

The human mind is more deceitful than anything else.

It is incurably bad. . . . . (Jer. 17:9) NET story book.

Yet many so called christians and others would have us believe that their alleged naughty fallen heavenly angel is the greatest deceiver, that allegedly started out in Genesis deceiving Eve?

Obviously mere human propensity outclasses any naughty fallen angel?

Cheers!

Edited April 2, 2010 by Composer

[year2027]

God first

thanks Composer

yes can see the negative but you must the positive too of Jeremiah

the love with the hate

all books have both

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[geisha779]

God first

he is a human being

I have no right to judge another person

neither do you

Roy,

Why do you say this?

Especially if "All books are wrote by man and they man's were picture of how man see's God God is said to be a good being who created man and all things but God did not write the many books but people did to imagine how God is like"

Hey, if it is all so vague, let's party and say what we want.. ... to whomever. Kind of like GSC :)

I judge people all the time. I never let Hannibal Lecter babysit, I taught my kids to be wary of strangers, and I am particular about who I buy a car from . . . . if I had used some sound judgment of people. . . . I never would have ended up in TWI.

By telling Sunesis she had no right to judge. . . . you kind of judged her.

IMO, some people just beg for a little judgment. There is no getting away from it.

Edited April 2, 2010 by geisha779

[year2027]

God first

thanks geisha and Sunesis

Sunesis has seem things the way see I them the board will take care itself

bad will be ask to leave good will stay

Sunesis is human and Composer is too

and so is geisha

we all humans

the word of God was wrote by good people but people

have the saying

God has no hands to walk with the dead

otherwise God is not human God is more

On the other board Composer was standing up for me

but I think he is a unbeliever

But we have them

I love geisha and Sunesis

we are a family

a party would nice but I hope there more

you see hope is all we have

nothing is prove but nothing is not too

this hope is all I need

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[modbaker]

I have removed some of the posts from this thread. Please refrain from personal attacks.

[cman]

is this what you mean Roy?

or something different

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/folklore

stories being told and being passed orally?