Has anyone mentioned yet that VP was NOT a "patriarch"?
He was just some charismatic, power hungry, drunken sexual predator.
Doesn't make the whole premise of the paper a rather moot point?
But if you look at any of the Mormon offshoot cults, that's exactly how their leaders are viewed - as the 'patriarch' of the tribe. That enables the control. In this fashion, of course Wierwille was a 'patriarch'. and today Rosalie is a 'matriarch'.
But if you look at any of the Mormon offshoot cults, that's exactly how their leaders are viewed - as the 'patriarch' of the tribe. That enables the control. In this fashion, of course Wierwille was a 'patriarch'. and today Rosalie is a 'matriarch'.
act crazy enough, and maybe one does not get the designation of "saint"..
no, not down outright evil like some of these numbnuts..
I don't want to ever be old enough to be considered a "patriarch"..
Reading this thread makes it GLARINGLY apparent that the "man behind the curtain" was a drunken sexual predator who used the Bible as his weapon of abuse and degradation. Because of this, I cannot fathom how the most vocal TWI offshoots believe that the curriculum they continue to teach has any validity at all! VPW never had anyone interests at heart except what served his own belly.
I was so unaware of all the misdeeds and backroom politics at the time, it never occurred to me to ask any of these questions. However, once I started understanding more and more, the first question that popped into my head was "Why did Mrs. VPW go along with POP?" Was she hoping for Geer to succeed? She seemed to eventually back Martindale... Or did she really go along with it at all? Did she just 'lay low' until everything blew over?
Anyone know 'up-close-and-personal' what her take on all this mess was?
Chockful - great points also, along with Skyrider on why Geer didn't make his move then. Thanks.
Skyrider - I am amazed too, that CG's spiritual "fire" in the end comes down to a franchised class. Someone shared on here I believe, years ago, that they paid the money to get the class and could never get enough people to take it - they lost a boatload. His class is not cheap. He does nothing, Geerites pay big bucks for permission to use it, and the money rolls in to him. Anyone know how much he charges for the "blessing" of being able to use it?
Hiway, I believe Mrs. W. was on LCM's "side" pretty much. I know someone who heard they were having a Day in the Word or something, and they went to the hotel to see her just to say hi on a break as they had been very close. Mrs. W was pretty stern, told them to leave if they couldn't support the MOG (LCM). They were crushed. She wasn't too tolerant of the traitors I don't think.
Okay I have a couple of questions.. how long after VP died was the Pop Paper read.. was it while Geer was still at head quarters or did he go back to Gartmoore and then come to Hedquarters to drop his little bomb.
also this makes Martindales demand for allegiance more understandable
and my second question is when people left after the demand for allegiance were they leaving to follow geer or just waking up to the fact that neither leader was who they wanted to follow at all.
And three how long after the reading of the POOP Paper before the demand for allegiance form MArtindale. I think some one on this thread mentioned 18 months.
Sorry for these but I wasn't there and it is all a bit of a muddle I think Wordwolf somewhere in annother thread posted a little time line thing but I can't find it
Okay I have a couple of questions.. how long after VP died was the Pop Paper read.. was it while Geer was still at head quarters or did he go back to Gartmoore and then come to Hedquarters to drop his little bomb.
also this makes Martindales demand for allegiance more understandable
and my second question is when people left after the demand for allegiance were they leaving to follow geer or just waking up to the fact that neither leader was who they wanted to follow at all.
And three how long after the reading of the POOP Paper before the demand for allegiance form MArtindale. I think some one on this thread mentioned 18 months.
Sorry for these but I wasn't there and it is all a bit of a muddle I think Wordwolf somewhere in annother thread posted a little time line thing but I can't find it
There are probably others who might have clearer knowledge but to the best of my recollection...
1) The Vicster died in the spring of 1985, and it wasn't quite a year later that Geer came to HQ (from Gartmore) to drop his POP-bomb... it's funny because doesn't POP say he should wait a full year to see if the BOT were making any changes? But he didn't wait even that long, lol...
2) Some of the people who left after the allegience letter did so to follow Geer (partly because they had been sitting on the fence between the two the whole time and just naturally fell to that side once they denounced Craig). But others just left on principle, because they felt it was wrong for Martindale to demand loyalty to himself. (of course, forgetting that Doc Vic did that all the time, and that Doc Vic demanded allegience of the clergy to CRAIG, and that as discussed here, Craig kinda had some good reasons to draw a line in the sand)
3) Martindale started breaking it off with Geer in 1989-90 I think... (boy the memory is going, I was even at HQ at that point and yet it all blurs together)... 87-88 first year in-rez, total anarchy, better watch your back from EVERYONE -- 88-89 on the field, the allegience letters go out that spring, our limb coord steals our class money (never turns it in to HQ). And I remember keeping a mental tally at corps week of who in our corps came back and who did not -- 89-90 Craig has drawn the line in the sand, and broken it off with Geer... taught the 17th corps
about how many devil spirits Geer was packing (which later becomes pt1 of the mandatory Galtians tapes). He also talked a lot about coming out of the fog, and about fresh starts. I remember being hopeful at that year's anniversary celebration... first time I heard some fire from the lecturn in a long, long time. But by the time I left HQ in August of 1990, I was pretty disheartened... felt like things were still very, very wrong...
Chockful - great points also, along with Skyrider on why Geer didn't make his move then. Thanks.
Skyrider - I am amazed too, that CG's spiritual "fire" in the end comes down to a franchised class. Someone shared on here I believe, years ago, that they paid the money to get the class and could never get enough people to take it - they lost a boatload. His class is not cheap. He does nothing, Geerites pay big bucks for permission to use it, and the money rolls in to him. Anyone know how much he charges for the "blessing" of being able to use it?
Hiway, I believe Mrs. W. was on LCM's "side" pretty much. I know someone who heard they were having a Day in the Word or something, and they went to the hotel to see her just to say hi on a break as they had been very close. Mrs. W was pretty stern, told them to leave if they couldn't support the MOG (LCM). They were crushed. She wasn't too tolerant of the traitors I don't think.
Yeah......geer was all *smoke and mirrors* -- no fire.
Besides, even when wierwille was contemplating the office of twi-presidency........christopher c. geer was never mentioned with any serious consideration. Neither was Towns3nd considered. The men who seemed to be the front-runners were martindale, cumm1ns, lynn, finn3gan, clarke, and burton (?).....I don't remember any others. Maybe someone here can remember another contender in this race.
Regarding Mrs. W......she stayed supportive, but silent thru 1987 & 1988 as craig, don and howard struggled to follow the geer directives. The podcast featuring RD's account of things like the YAK twig and all show forth the swirling of mixed messages, suspicions, rumors, lies, and backstabbing that was going on during this time.
But.......I vividly recall JP Wierwille declaring March 8, 1989 as "Liberation Day of The Way." The trustees had made the decision to cut off communication with geer and move on. Mrs. Wierwille fully supported this decision and was eager to be welcoming all at every sunday meeting.
I also said, you know, he stated that 90 percent of the corps is possessed. I look around this room, that means 18 of you should be possessed.....
sunesis........that is rich!
I keep forgetting that Geer said that -- 90% of the way corps were possessed.
In twi, at that time......labeling someone POSSESSED was akin to the political atmosphere of today in labeling someone RACIST.
Really? 90%? C'mon geer......just because wierwille dropped the p-bomb (possessed) to bully others, doesn't mean that you had the spiritual cahones to use it.
I did really say that. You should have seen their expressions, everyone kind of glanced at everyone else, little brains whirring... who here is possessed??? Not me, not me!!! I then said, I don't see anyone here who is possessed. I.e, if you believe what he said, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It certainly did make people pause. But, after the pause, they continued to give him their allegence.
But.......I vividly recall J*P* Wien*rwilla declaring March 8, 1989 as "Liberation Day of The Way." The trustees had made the decision to cut off communication with geer and move on. Mrs. Wierwille fully supported this decision and was eager to be welcoming all at every sunday meeting.
Isn't this the same guy the loyster set his said large rear to the curb? Or was that rosie the hatchet and the donster that ran him off.. along with his "kind"?
vewy vewy interesting..
(modified the quote to change the name of the *innocent(?)*..)
interesting..
so what was it with da misses? It seems she was willing to rubber stamp almost every edict that came out of they loyster's mouth.
even to the extent of alienating herself from her own offspring..
I keep forgetting that Geer said that -- 90% of the way corps were possessed.
This probably sounds crazy........but can anyone name ONE REFERENCE IN SCRIPTURE where a man of God confronted a multitude identifying a SPECIFIC PERCENTAGE?
This 90% possessed was the most specific point he made all night.
Not 92%......not 91%........but 90%..........WOW, what specific "revelation?"
..and there we had the spectacle of one dysfunctional faction of a dysfunctional organization condemning another dysfunctional faction for not being sufficiently like the dysfunctional founder :o
This was a large scale manifestation of what, in my observation, had long been a part of the TWI culture, comparing the leadership and each other to the perceived "standard of the Word". Most of the time it bubbled under the surface and was only discussed among friends who could absolutely could be trusted to keep their mouths shut. Geer's actions opened the door for this kind of suspicion and back-stabbing to be out in the open. Martindale for the most part put a lid on this for a few years due to his draconian policies and zero tolerance for dissent, but opened the door himself in the mid-nineties with his purges and standard of "genuine spiritual suspicion" that did not exclude the Way Corps. There was a period when the accusations and infighting broke loose again, with everybody pointing fingers at suspected "homos" in their midst.
This probably sounds crazy........but can anyone name ONE REFERENCE IN SCRIPTURE where a man of God confronted a multitude identifying a SPECIFIC PERCENTAGE?
. . .
No, But Lot had a discussion with God about numbers of people, . . . I think it was Lot.
Really? 90%? C'mon geer......just because wierwille dropped the p-bomb (possessed) to bully others, doesn't mean that you had the spiritual cahones to use it.
OHMYGOD that's how he ran his show over the pond !!!!! at least from my PERSONAL experience
I haven't been here in a while but decided to respond because I knew Geer before the way (I was in high school with him) and I knew him all thru our time in the way and also was on the phone line when he read the patriarch paper. And I was at the clergy meeting when he confronted Craig and the board in 1986 (I think that's when it was).
Anyway - my opinion is that you can't read too much into why he did this or did that. He was a lunatic. Mentally deranged. He probably thought he had some rational reasons but every kook thinks that. It's like people trying to read logic into some of the stuff vpw did when it was just his alcoholism speaking.
Geer looked like he was doing a power grab but then he didn't. Who knows why. Maybe he didn't want the responsibility of fixing it once he broke it. This way he could just stand on the side and toss bombs. Maybe he was just reacting out of emotion. I'm sure he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing and something spiritual and logical. But 80% of Americans think they are above average drivers. Go figure.
Geer looked like he was doing a power grab but then he didn't. Who knows why. Maybe he didn't want the responsibility of fixing it once he broke it. This way he could just stand on the side and toss bombs. Maybe he was just reacting out of emotion. I'm sure he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing and something spiritual and logical.
In my observation many people (I wouldn't want to guess the percentage) are adept at identifying the problems but not at all interested in coming up with solutions. Solving the problems is hard work. And I've seen this in every area of life: from work situations, to the PTA, to family situations, to churches (and covens ), to all manner of volunteer organizations. Maybe it's human nature. I don't know what Geer's motivation was either, I didn't know the man and was never around him, but he seemed to have a definite opinion that there was a problem, wasn't very specific about what the problem even was and was even less specific as to what to do about it.
Stepping back and telling other people to fix a problem, what a deal! And when the description of what things will look like when the problem is fixed exist only in your head, you've got people running around trying to guess what it is you're thinking.
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newlife
Yea, I was there when it all came down...At that time I had been in for 12 years or so. Totally rocked my world...because my whole life had been based on lies that they told and I believed. I was
Sunesis
I think in some ways, Hiway29's post sums it up for me. Also, I had seen CG in action - literally hissing at a woman and going non-stop, the hate was vile. I wondered, what is going on here? It the
Sunesis
I did really say that. You should have seen their expressions, everyone kind of glanced at everyone else, little brains whirring... who here is possessed??? Not me, not me!!! I then said, I don't
Ham
I dunno.. I think he sold it for peanuts..
he could buy a masters in theology.. a doctorate at some *reputable* degree mill..
fire up the European christian(?) press..
sell a whole bunch of pfal, rhst.. lots of way stuff..
he probably still has a copy of the the "agreement" to publish way materials..
transcribe a few more *doc* vic praise(?) be his names sunday night services.. tape of the month.. posthumously of course..
the old wayfers kinda go wild over this kind of thing..
maybe he just doesn't have the ambition of his *master*..
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chockfull
But if you look at any of the Mormon offshoot cults, that's exactly how their leaders are viewed - as the 'patriarch' of the tribe. That enables the control. In this fashion, of course Wierwille was a 'patriarch'. and today Rosalie is a 'matriarch'.
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Ham
good point. And perhaps for him he required all or nothing..
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Ham
act crazy enough, and maybe one does not get the designation of "saint"..
no, not down outright evil like some of these numbnuts..
I don't want to ever be old enough to be considered a "patriarch"..
my dad succeeded in this regard..
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Rejoice
Reading this thread makes it GLARINGLY apparent that the "man behind the curtain" was a drunken sexual predator who used the Bible as his weapon of abuse and degradation. Because of this, I cannot fathom how the most vocal TWI offshoots believe that the curriculum they continue to teach has any validity at all! VPW never had anyone interests at heart except what served his own belly.
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TheHighWay
I was so unaware of all the misdeeds and backroom politics at the time, it never occurred to me to ask any of these questions. However, once I started understanding more and more, the first question that popped into my head was "Why did Mrs. VPW go along with POP?" Was she hoping for Geer to succeed? She seemed to eventually back Martindale... Or did she really go along with it at all? Did she just 'lay low' until everything blew over?
Anyone know 'up-close-and-personal' what her take on all this mess was?
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Sunesis
Chockful - great points also, along with Skyrider on why Geer didn't make his move then. Thanks.
Skyrider - I am amazed too, that CG's spiritual "fire" in the end comes down to a franchised class. Someone shared on here I believe, years ago, that they paid the money to get the class and could never get enough people to take it - they lost a boatload. His class is not cheap. He does nothing, Geerites pay big bucks for permission to use it, and the money rolls in to him. Anyone know how much he charges for the "blessing" of being able to use it?
Hiway, I believe Mrs. W. was on LCM's "side" pretty much. I know someone who heard they were having a Day in the Word or something, and they went to the hotel to see her just to say hi on a break as they had been very close. Mrs. W was pretty stern, told them to leave if they couldn't support the MOG (LCM). They were crushed. She wasn't too tolerant of the traitors I don't think.
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leafytwiglet
Okay I have a couple of questions.. how long after VP died was the Pop Paper read.. was it while Geer was still at head quarters or did he go back to Gartmoore and then come to Hedquarters to drop his little bomb.
also this makes Martindales demand for allegiance more understandable
and my second question is when people left after the demand for allegiance were they leaving to follow geer or just waking up to the fact that neither leader was who they wanted to follow at all.
And three how long after the reading of the POOP Paper before the demand for allegiance form MArtindale. I think some one on this thread mentioned 18 months.
Sorry for these but I wasn't there and it is all a bit of a muddle I think Wordwolf somewhere in annother thread posted a little time line thing but I can't find it
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TheHighWay
There are probably others who might have clearer knowledge but to the best of my recollection...
1) The Vicster died in the spring of 1985, and it wasn't quite a year later that Geer came to HQ (from Gartmore) to drop his POP-bomb... it's funny because doesn't POP say he should wait a full year to see if the BOT were making any changes? But he didn't wait even that long, lol...
2) Some of the people who left after the allegience letter did so to follow Geer (partly because they had been sitting on the fence between the two the whole time and just naturally fell to that side once they denounced Craig). But others just left on principle, because they felt it was wrong for Martindale to demand loyalty to himself. (of course, forgetting that Doc Vic did that all the time, and that Doc Vic demanded allegience of the clergy to CRAIG, and that as discussed here, Craig kinda had some good reasons to draw a line in the sand)
3) Martindale started breaking it off with Geer in 1989-90 I think... (boy the memory is going, I was even at HQ at that point and yet it all blurs together)... 87-88 first year in-rez, total anarchy, better watch your back from EVERYONE -- 88-89 on the field, the allegience letters go out that spring, our limb coord steals our class money (never turns it in to HQ). And I remember keeping a mental tally at corps week of who in our corps came back and who did not -- 89-90 Craig has drawn the line in the sand, and broken it off with Geer... taught the 17th corps
about how many devil spirits Geer was packing (which later becomes pt1 of the mandatory Galtians tapes). He also talked a lot about coming out of the fog, and about fresh starts. I remember being hopeful at that year's anniversary celebration... first time I heard some fire from the lecturn in a long, long time. But by the time I left HQ in August of 1990, I was pretty disheartened... felt like things were still very, very wrong...
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skyrider
Yeah......geer was all *smoke and mirrors* -- no fire.
Besides, even when wierwille was contemplating the office of twi-presidency........christopher c. geer was never mentioned with any serious consideration. Neither was Towns3nd considered. The men who seemed to be the front-runners were martindale, cumm1ns, lynn, finn3gan, clarke, and burton (?).....I don't remember any others. Maybe someone here can remember another contender in this race.
Regarding Mrs. W......she stayed supportive, but silent thru 1987 & 1988 as craig, don and howard struggled to follow the geer directives. The podcast featuring RD's account of things like the YAK twig and all show forth the swirling of mixed messages, suspicions, rumors, lies, and backstabbing that was going on during this time.
But.......I vividly recall JP Wierwille declaring March 8, 1989 as "Liberation Day of The Way." The trustees had made the decision to cut off communication with geer and move on. Mrs. Wierwille fully supported this decision and was eager to be welcoming all at every sunday meeting.
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skyrider
sunesis........that is rich!
I keep forgetting that Geer said that -- 90% of the way corps were possessed.
In twi, at that time......labeling someone POSSESSED was akin to the political atmosphere of today in labeling someone RACIST.
Really? 90%? C'mon geer......just because wierwille dropped the p-bomb (possessed) to bully others, doesn't mean that you had the spiritual cahones to use it.
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Sunesis
I did really say that. You should have seen their expressions, everyone kind of glanced at everyone else, little brains whirring... who here is possessed??? Not me, not me!!! I then said, I don't see anyone here who is possessed. I.e, if you believe what he said, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It certainly did make people pause. But, after the pause, they continued to give him their allegence.
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Ham
Isn't this the same guy the loyster set his said large rear to the curb? Or was that rosie the hatchet and the donster that ran him off.. along with his "kind"?
vewy vewy interesting..
(modified the quote to change the name of the *innocent(?)*..)
interesting..
so what was it with da misses? It seems she was willing to rubber stamp almost every edict that came out of they loyster's mouth.
even to the extent of alienating herself from her own offspring..
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skyrider
This probably sounds crazy........but can anyone name ONE REFERENCE IN SCRIPTURE where a man of God confronted a multitude identifying a SPECIFIC PERCENTAGE?
This 90% possessed was the most specific point he made all night.
Not 92%......not 91%........but 90%..........WOW, what specific "revelation?"
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Oakspear
..and there we had the spectacle of one dysfunctional faction of a dysfunctional organization condemning another dysfunctional faction for not being sufficiently like the dysfunctional founder :o
This was a large scale manifestation of what, in my observation, had long been a part of the TWI culture, comparing the leadership and each other to the perceived "standard of the Word". Most of the time it bubbled under the surface and was only discussed among friends who could absolutely could be trusted to keep their mouths shut. Geer's actions opened the door for this kind of suspicion and back-stabbing to be out in the open. Martindale for the most part put a lid on this for a few years due to his draconian policies and zero tolerance for dissent, but opened the door himself in the mid-nineties with his purges and standard of "genuine spiritual suspicion" that did not exclude the Way Corps. There was a period when the accusations and infighting broke loose again, with everybody pointing fingers at suspected "homos" in their midst.
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Bolshevik
No, But Lot had a discussion with God about numbers of people, . . . I think it was Lot.
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leafytwiglet
It was Lot
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waysider
This paper had about as much credibility as a job character reference from the devil.
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skyrider
Yeah.....there's plenty of scripture that deals with NUMBERS of people, ie...moses, lot, abraham, elijah (confronting the 450 prophets of baal), etc
But......for geer to stand on mainstage at corps week and proclaim, "...90% of the corps are possessed"
Oh, really?.......never believed it for one new york minute!
Oh, really?.......then, maybe YOU geer should cast out the spirits!
Why when wierwille or geer labeled someone possessed......WHY DIDN'T THEY CAST OUT THE SPIRIT(S)?
Yeah, that's what I thought......divisive and manipulative.
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waysider
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEDncCrNMk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEDncCrNMk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEDncCrNMk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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excathedra
OHMYGOD that's how he ran his show over the pond !!!!! at least from my PERSONAL experience
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My3Cents
I haven't been here in a while but decided to respond because I knew Geer before the way (I was in high school with him) and I knew him all thru our time in the way and also was on the phone line when he read the patriarch paper. And I was at the clergy meeting when he confronted Craig and the board in 1986 (I think that's when it was).
Anyway - my opinion is that you can't read too much into why he did this or did that. He was a lunatic. Mentally deranged. He probably thought he had some rational reasons but every kook thinks that. It's like people trying to read logic into some of the stuff vpw did when it was just his alcoholism speaking.
Geer looked like he was doing a power grab but then he didn't. Who knows why. Maybe he didn't want the responsibility of fixing it once he broke it. This way he could just stand on the side and toss bombs. Maybe he was just reacting out of emotion. I'm sure he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing and something spiritual and logical. But 80% of Americans think they are above average drivers. Go figure.
Have a nice day.
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excathedra
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Oakspear
Stepping back and telling other people to fix a problem, what a deal! And when the description of what things will look like when the problem is fixed exist only in your head, you've got people running around trying to guess what it is you're thinking.
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