I'll agree to a point. There is language in the Scriptures that refer to the "mature" (as opposed to those needing milk), but I'll agree also that people can "overstudy" and become monkish to a fault (read: eggheads for Jesus). That balance between doctrine and practice is a place I want to live.
RE
I guess that as long as you can "Mature" and keep your nose out of the clouds and remember to love other people that God has also fathered. But that's where most of the "Meat-Eaters" screw-up. TWI being a prime example. They became Giants of Malice (1 Corinthians 14:20), puffed up with knowledge and never knowing anything as they ought to have known it, and they used that liberty as an occasion to the flesh. God often hides things from people who gain knowledge (the meat eaters) things that He openly shows to the babes, and to those who are physically challenged in life. It's His way. Says so in many places. The more learned you become the more that some of the simple and obvious things will elude you, and the temptation is to think that because of your learning,... you are better. Beware of that thought, it's a lie. Some of God's very favorite children have been babes.
"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Roy, I found your post on "meat and milk" to be very appropriate to this discussion. I could summarize what I want to say about "be not high-minded, but fear" in a single brief post, but then it would just be more milk, not good milk, but a lump of curdled milk. It was interesting to read something from the view point of someone who is studying Orthodoxy. The interdenominational school where I taught was destroyed because the board, who were evangelical protestants, decided to fire the two teachers who were American Orthodox. The whole faculty, who were mostly evangelical protestants (I was a covert heretic, I told 'em I was a Free-Range Christian), resigned in solidarity with our American Orthodox brothers.
I have studied meat and milk in Hebrews 5:12-14, and it relates to DrWearWord's post about judgment, but that's a topic for another thread.
I guess that as long as you can "Mature" and keep your nose out of the clouds and remember to love other people that God has also fathered. But that's where most of the "Meat-Eaters" screw-up. TWI being a prime example. They became Giants of Malice (1 Corinthians 14:20), puffed up with knowledge and never knowing anything as they ought to have known it, and they used that liberty as an occasion to the flesh. God often hides things from people who gain knowledge (the meat eaters) things that He openly shows to the babes, and to those who are physically challenged in life. It's His way. Says so in many places. The more learned you become the more that some of the simple and obvious things will elude you, and the temptation is to think that because of your learning,... you are better. Beware of that thought, it's a lie. Some of God's very favorite children have been babes.
"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."
I say "Amen" to your closing prayer, Gen-2.
The problem with TWI was not that they served milk. They served kool-ade.
Soooo..... what do I think the word "heart" means in Jermiah 17:9a?
Nearly every word has a literal meaning, and a range of figurative meanings.
The literal meaning of "heart" is the organ located near the center of the torso that beats. Nowadays, we know that the heart is the organ that pumps blood through the circulatory system, but they didn't know that at the time the Bible was written.
For a long time, a general figurative meaning for "heart" has been the seat of the emotions. Figurative meanings arise as metaphors based on some feature of a thing. I think the heart as the seat of the emotions arose because, when a person is excited by the release of adrenalin, a powerful emotional experience, the heart beats noticably faster. I think the Hebrew word "leb", translated "heart" in Jeremiah 17:9a had a broad range of figurative meanings. I think the Greek word "kardia", translated "heart" in the New Testament had a broad range of figurative meanings. I KNOW that the English word "heart" has a broad range of figurative meanings. I also know that none of those sets of figurative meanings match exactly.
So I'm going to look at a few verses that lead me to think that "heart" has a particular figurative meaning in the verse in question, but first, it's time to go eat Cheez-its and watch Project Runway with my wife.
Interesting that you should bring up Einstein. I spent six years in the US Navy nuclear power program (I never had any experiences as extreme as the ones you've described as having while you were in the service. I have a great deal of respect for you!). In the training path, we had to comprehend enough quantum mechanics to understand the six-factor formula of reactor kinetics, by which we operated the power plant. To Einstein, making things simple didn't mean dumbing them down, so much as turning them inside out. In the 20th century PFAL, Wierwille turned my understanding of the the Bible inside out. I've been working for the past few years on turning my understanding of the Bible right side out again. Unfortunately, I've developed a suspicion that Jerome and Augustine, in the fifth century, also turned our understanding of what Paul wrote in the 1st century inside out.
I find figuring out stuff like this entertaining, like the Sudoku puzzles I work before going to bed. I'm only good at the medium level puzzles. The hard ones frustrate me. I'm better at recognizing patterns in words than patterns in abstract symbols. The symbols in Sudoku aren't really used as numbers.
Not everybody enjoys this sort of thing. That's why I put this thread in the Doctrinal section. I build cardstock models. I also post on the cardstock model website forums.
I appreciate the perspective you are bringing to this discussion, and to you also, I extend an exhortation to hold my feet to the fire. Make sure I don't forget how childish I really am.
Love,
Steve
I considered particle physics, or nuclear physics, But sitting in port on a naval vessel doing the calculations for Xenon poisoning while my buds in A-Div went home for the night to their families and friends....... Hey Steve, ever notice how sometimes the things you don't/didn't mind doing are what other people would never do, not in a million years? So I've been shooting lasers into ionized gasses this week and playing with plasma. Were you on a Sub Steve?
I wouldn't worry too much about Augustinian amplifications to our greater understanding. Just try waking up tomorrow and being more loving in your very real day, to each person you cross paths with. (that usually sounds soooo cornball to "knowledgeable Bible people). All of you here at GSC have a lot more head-knowledge than I do, I think, about the bible. But I'd be happy - just to play with the mustard seeds. On the other hand I'm designing a quantum computer that will work on the nanoscale and run off a watch battery for about 2 years, be 20 times better than this laptop I'm typing on and small enough to dance next to the angels on the head of a pin with plenty of floorspace for everyone to move around. It's all about getting a quantum field to "flip" reliably, doesn't really matter how,... off/on or one way then the other..... all I need is One and Zero - if you see what I mean,... binary.
数独 is very big in Japan. The little nine-digit puzzle, fill-in-the-blanks are sold by news vendors like crossword puzzles are here in America, and even though I have a BS in Fractal Mathematics, I don't have the patience for puzzles in booklets (Probably because I'm Hyper-active and can't stay put unless I have to).
Post a pic of one of your cardstock models somewhere or set a link to one, I'd love to see one of them.
...so I strayed a tad from Doctrinal issues >>Points at Steve and Blames Him<<< Hahahaha!
1. I have been sitting here talking about a sin I did today that to me was big. Now the sin I did is not important but what is that I am sorry I did it. Even when I hear God tell me it is ok he has forgiving me it still comes to my mind right now.
2. This sin only seen to hurt my heart but if it had not hurt my heart I would not have ask for forgiveness what kind of believer would I be if had not ask? Now I try not too sin but they come and not just one a day. Maybe I am too hard on myself but how can I claim to be a believer it I am not aware of the sins I do each day.
3. What is a sin in my little mind let me name some of them I eat to must and am over 280 pounds but why is this a sin at times in my life today and past I have ate more than my body needs putting food above God. Now I will not over come this sin any time soon because it has become a habit and habits are hard to break.
4. Now my God and his son know that I am a person of flesh and bone and that the world teaches it is ok to be fat which it is ok to be fat but its not ok to put food above God or the want of food, TV, sex, or what ever your hang up is.
5. We all have them and God understands that this old world is getting more evil each day and night. But lets get back to the heart of the believer. We are the ones that believe God's teachings and feel his love each day of our lives.
6. The believer teaches his or her children what they believe is right and what is wrong. But if our children has a problem with something like eating too must we do not get mad but we just love them more as God does. For we know the world pushes some sins making it near to impossible to overcome some.
7. But with time and prayer they can be overcome. Now I think that God gives more room for some sins because of the times we live in and God is not a respecter of sins but what cause the sin. Was it done not knowing it was a sin or were the weight of the world teaching to must for the sinner to overcome.
8. Now we are too Love all people even the evil ones but when are we to fight the evil. When they come at us we are too turn the other cheek but when they come at our children being our family that are not able the handle the attack we are to fight for the sakes of the weak with a pure heart.
9. Yes there is a time to fight but only for the sakes of the weak. Now if our government fights in a war we are too support the fighting men and women with love and prays that the war is over soon and they come back home safe. But our prays do not stop there they go out the people our government is fighting with love for the innocent on both sides of the war.
10. The believer does not judge another person on earth but leaves all judgement up to God who will judge all in due time. Whether they believe the same as we do or not but our job is too love them no matter what they believe. Now if we walk in this love they may ask us about our beliefs in due time.
11. Do not tell a man he is wrong unless you first loved him as a brother but after you have been a brother to him then you may tell him why you do not believe that is right and you may ask him not to do it around you unless the thing he or she is doing hurts a child then you are too stop him or her from doing that any were children may be.
12. You can still love a bad person even if he is a danger to love ones by pointing him to a place for help were there are no weak love ones he or she can hurt. Its not wrong to put your children above the evil ones because God has before by sending help to the Israelites in many ways like weather, angels or however he may send help in a hour of need.
13. How do we know when a person is bad or good by asking God if we do not feel right about someone we met in life. Because some look bad but have a heart of gold while others look good for have a dark black heart. For it's the heart of me that makes him or her good or bad and its God that reads the hearts of men and women.
14. I wrote this which hopes others can help build up more what the heart of a believer is. Now God by way of Christ may of help me write must of this but you can add too it because God is working in you too my friends. With love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy.
Chapter 24
wrote 06-17-2005
God first
The Book of Love
1. I Roy Perry am here to tell to you about the true word of God "The Book of Love" of God but I must first send my love unto each and every one of you.
2. May the God of Love bless your heart all the day and may you dream of his love in your sleep. And may the Christ the son of God who has loved you enough to give his life for you and who guides you with a loving smile.
3. Now lets get back to this very old and new book which I have began to tell you about. As you may know the bible reads that we are living epistles.
4. ("2 Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.")
5. If we be living books than the love from us to God is "The Book of Love" written in our hearts with the ink of the spirit within us the seed of Christ.
6. Now we can read about Abraham and see his love he had for God with just the spirit upon on, or Moses, Isaiah, Joseph, David, and many more who just had the holy spirit upon them.
7. But we can all so read about Apostle Paul, Matthew, Mark, John, Phillip, and many more that receive the spirit within them or we can read about Jesus the Christ or even God the Father-Creator of all things.
8. But even greater we can have God reveal these men’s and more love of God unto us by the seed of Christ telling each man’s story like a bed time story of love.
9. Our lives can be read by each other when we walk in the love of God because we are living books still being wrote each and every day of our life.
10. So have you read "The Book of Love" yet ? Or are you just like me just beginning to read it as you grow in love. With love and a holy kiss Roy.
God first
He Hop He Hop down the spiritual road
1. Here we are jumping down the spiritual road of truth my dear friends. Do you see our Lord Jesus Christ sating alone side you my dear friend. If you do your have faith but if you do not read the word of God because by hearing the words of truth builds faith in you.
2. He Hop He Hop I go to share the words of truth with you my dear friends. Your God loves you very must he is the giver of all givers. What did God the Father or God the Mother give unto you my dear friends.
3. In the beginning you were given the heaven and earth . On the first day you was given light . On the second day you were given dry land and wet waters. On the third day you were given plants of all kinds from seeds after their kind.
4. On the fourth you were given patters to lights for guide lines for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. On the fifth day you were given animal life which is soul life the breath life. On the sixth day you were given in yourself the image of God. On the seventh day you were given rest.
5. The list of things you were given lets see he gave up his sons life on earth so his could lead you from death to life. He spend 1,000 years getting spiritual light ready to be given back to you. He spend 2,000 years getting spiritual water ready for you to drink. He spend 3,000 years getting spiritual signs ready for you to see.
6. He spend 4,000 years getting spiritual breath life of his son ready for you. He spend 5,000 years getting spiritual image ready for you. He spend 6,000 years getting spiritual rest ready for you.
7. He Hop He Hop we go down the spiritual road of God giving unto us but what have we gave God back over the years my dear friend?
8. With love and a holy spiritual kiss blowing your way Roy.
I know does tell about eating but it about life and need to eat to live
I am not sure there is some deep meaning to heart here is there? You can spend time searching usages of the word heart I guess, but since we all have one. . . . figuratively and physically, I wonder if it will give us greater understanding? Especially if it is deceptive above all things!!
Things in the scriptures relate to being human. When Ezekiel juxtaposes a heart of stone with a heart of flesh . . . . we know what that means.
The heart is deceitful above all things. Do we deceive ourselves, do we deceive others? Are we deceiving ourselves when we think we are being true to who we are? Where does that usually lead us? Right into apostasy. Because. . . .scripture lays out a reality . . .our own reality changes with the seasons . . . . with our culture and with our heart.
God doesn't change. The reality of God never changes.
We can never deceive God though. We can lie to Him, make promises in His name and not keep them (big no no BTW) but, God isn't fooled. . . . when we do this, we fool ourselves.
Where does this deception issue from?
We all know where it comes from . . . . but, sometimes with scripture, explaining things transcend language. Where is the figurative heart located . . . . I don't have a clue. I cannot draw you a diagram, yet, I know what scripture means when it speaks of the figurative human heart. . . . I am human.
My opinion. . . . . a good verse to keep in mind when considering anything we think we may know from TWI . . . . or the gold we think we may have escaped with is
2 Timothy 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
As for exegesis. . . . milk, meat and maturity. . ..we can all read a text book . . . .I really don't think we need to write one to make a point or read out from scripture .. ..it relates to being human in relationship to God and it speaks to us on that level.
If we are not learning in that relationship. . . . and sharing in that capacity . . . that knowledge we try to glean is simply going to take us in circles or where our particular heart thinks God should be. We can even get caught up in one man's peculiar sin and rationalization. . . . it can sound great to our ears.
Jesus used to walk around and point to things. . .flowers, birds. . .. seeds. . . . he spoke of people . . . and not just random people, but people that were familiar. . . . like tax collectors or dishonest stewards. They may have been real people everyone was aware of. . . . I sometimes think this is the case. He was a wisdom teacher. . . . . and He said The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
When the Apostles taught. . . they spoke in relation to Jesus.. . . . who is our way of relating to God. They spoke authoritatively . . . . Jesus spoke in finality. . . and I really don't think there is any way to go beyond that.
I think the best bible teachers are the ones who simply speak from the security of relationship with the Lord and are comfortable with their knowledge of scriptures.
That is good exegesis.
Not that Greek or scholarship doesn't have its place. . . . it does, I have great respect for certain bible scholars. But, that in itself cannot give us the knowledge and understanding we seek.
The best book I ever read was A. W. Tozer Knowledge of the Holy. Stunning book.
He once said "The man or woman who is wholly or joyously surrendered to Christ can't make a wrong choice/any choice will be the right one."
When it says "above all things" . . . . what do you think that means? Above all things? What things? . . . . A turtles heart? A trees heart? What else is there to contrast with the human heart? Is it so deceitful. .. . . nothing compares to it?
I once read online a list of contradictions in the bible compiled by Martin Luther. Being of the ilk years ago as a way believer I dismissed them as falsehoods yet fundamentally they stuck with me in my mind until years later when I was ready to face them with an objective approach.
Luther found so many blaring contradictions that it is any wonder how he mustered up the courage to nail anything to the door of orthodoxy.
Some contradictions can be found right in the verse with which they are written. :)
Some are in the context and the remote context and some rear their ugly head when we study were a word has been used before...
These contradictions follow logically all the way up to the top and God him/her self.
God is jealous, God is fickle, God is vindictive, God is kind, God has no evil whatsoever...
God punishes the serpent with eternal damnation for teaching us to think autonomously.
It seems God is angered by us obtaining knowledge yet we are to come unto a knowledge of the truth.
It is also knowledge that saves us for if we had no knowledge of our lord and that God raised him from the dead how could we believe and be saved?
It seems that only when we step back from the word do we begin to understand.
Much like the binary numbering system a contradiction is usually paired as is matter and anti matter, right and left brain, the observer and the observed. When this process becomes clear one has reached enlightenment their eyes are opened and they put on the image of the androgynous creator.
Just as we have two hands and two gloves and both hands should never accompany the same glove. The milk and the meat, the physical heart and the center of the will.
There is the surface meaning and then there is the meaning that is felt but never spoken and this meaning whether intentionally or unintentional is sewn within the fabric of the word, much like space and time are inseparably connected as waves and particles. The contradictions are purposely placed.
The occult is that contradiction keeps the mind perched between certainty and uncertainty. When we believe we know is when we realize we are fools and only when we become fools do we truly begin to understand.
For we will never know and appreciate love and faith without first knowing fear.
Thus the fool says there is no God and the fool is right, for the moment we think we know God then we realize how illusive God truly is. We can never know both the position and velocity of God for God is shrouded by the imperceptible. Zero never changes.
The bible says God is truth and truth never changes, then why two testaments? Why Does God transmute him/her self as Jehovah into trees, clouds, water, spirit a still small voice and then the son of God.
For only out of contradiction is there birth of thought and ideals. In understanding the process over the substance one becomes holy.
It is the process itself that is to be exalted above the actual substance.
Out of true and false, maybe is born. Out of grace and works is born compassion. Out of knowledge and spirit is born a new creature. Out of law and liberty is born freedom. Out of words and heart is born righteousness. The process is of the scales of Libra and in the balance of contradiction, wisdom is born...
In English, there is a particular figurative meaning for the word "heart" that finds expression in the phrase "to learn something by heart" or "to know something by heart". It means to have practiced a thing to a degree that it can be said or done reflexively, without any need to pay attention to saying or doing it.
When a person first learns to drive a car, that person has to pay deliberate, very close attention to each and every action: where he puts each foot, how he holds the wheel, how he moves the wheel, where he looks, what he looks for, how far to depress the gas pedal, when to switch to the brake, how far to depress the brake pedal, how hard to push it. But as the driver gains experience, he can do all those things and pay attention to something else. He can do all that stuff on "automatic pilot", so to speak, and devote his attention to eating a cheeseburger and grooving to his favorite song on the classic rock station while he breezes down the highway.
Say our experienced driver is riding in the passenger seat while a friend is driving the car. The friend comes to a situation where our person would normally brake, but the friend doesn't. Our experienced driver finds his right foot stomping uselessly on the floor. It's a reflex. Our person has learned to drive a car "by heart."
Some people call this process, of learning by heart, "internalization." When we practice anything to the point that we can think it or do it, paying absolutely no attention to what we're thinking or doing, we have internalized that thing.
Now this English figurative definition of "heart" certainly doesn't have an exact, one-to-one correspondence with the use of the Hebrew word leb in Jeremiah 17:9a, and the word could well mean something else in a different context, but I think there is good evidence for thinking Jeremiah's use of leb here means something very similar to "what a person has learned by heart."
Proverbs 2:1-5 "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee... and apply thine heart [leb] to understanding... ...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God."
Proverbs 3:3 "Let not mercy and truth forsake thee... write them upon the table of thine heart [leb]:"
Proverbs 4:4 (As Gen-2 already pointed out) "He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart [leb] retain my words..."
Proverbs 4:20-23 "My son, attend to my words... ...keep them in the midst of thine heart [lebab, the innermost part of the heart]... Keep thy heart [leb] with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."
Proverbs 6:20-21a "My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: Bind them continually upon thine heart [leb]..."
Proverbs 7:1-3 "My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee... ...write them upon the table of thine heart [leb]"
There are a lot more. It's interesting to note that many of the places where the Bible uses leb in this sense are concentrated in Proverbs.
There are a lot of uses of leb in Psalms also, but they seem to carry some different senses.
All for now. In the old days I would have labored all day long and far into the night writing massive, convoluted posts. That was before I was diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder (the mild form, I haven't had any psychotic breaks like my wife has had) and learned how to recognize and deflect my manic swings. 40mg of generic Paxil per day helps, too! Have fun, guys! Our salvation doen't depend on THIS.
Interesting Jeff, how those two ideas, yours and mine brought this to mind so quickly
Proverbs 4
1Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Yeah, same verses for me too! Interesting, and good I think.
---------------------------
Thanks for this Geisha!
"My opinion. . . . . a good verse to keep in mind when considering anything we think we may know from TWI . . . . or the gold we think we may have escaped with is
2 Timothy 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth."
---------------------------
"The heart is deceitful above all things"
Ok, so do we have gold from The Way International or not?
Or have we been given a false estimation of ourselves along with a false estimate of the worth of Way ministry doctrine.
I suspect that for each of us it will vary according to our own Way Ministry experience but I believe that certain Way Ministry trends are self-evident and worth watching out for. One of the most prevalent Way Ministry trend IMO is the TWI understanding what it is to be a meat eater, as oppose to being a babe that needs milk.
Isn't it eisegesis to teach that blatant adultery is ok for the "meat eaters"? ("spiritually mature" being the Way ministry phrase)Talk about reading into the scriptures to make it mean what Wierwille wanted! WTF?
Isn't it decieving ourself to assume that our own unique experieces make us the "chosen people" or "spiritually mature"? The answer is WE ARE DECIEVED if we think that adultery is for the mature, that our education alone makes us mature, or that the fact we've been led by Way ministry example to think that manipulation and/or bullying is the purview of the mature. BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL!
But also,referring to simple human nature I believe that it is normal to assume that we are among the smart, mature, chosen......etc. Especially if our authority figures tell us we are great so we don't see them for the vile, manipulative sociopaths that they really are! This IMO is ample evidence that the human heart is very, very deceitful.
I considered particle physics, or nuclear physics, But sitting in port on a naval vessel doing the calculations for Xenon poisoning while my buds in A-Div went home for the night to their families and friends....... Hey Steve, ever notice how sometimes the things you don't/didn't mind doing are what other people would never do, not in a million years? So I've been shooting lasers into ionized gasses this week and playing with plasma. Were you on a Sub Steve?
I wouldn't worry too much about Augustinian amplifications to our greater understanding. Just try waking up tomorrow and being more loving in your very real day, to each person you cross paths with. (that usually sounds soooo cornball to "knowledgeable Bible people). All of you here at GSC have a lot more head-knowledge than I do, I think, about the bible. But I'd be happy - just to play with the mustard seeds. On the other hand I'm designing a quantum computer that will work on the nanoscale and run off a watch battery for about 2 years, be 20 times better than this laptop I'm typing on and small enough to dance next to the angels on the head of a pin with plenty of floorspace for everyone to move around. It's all about getting a quantum field to "flip" reliably, doesn't really matter how,... off/on or one way then the other..... all I need is One and Zero - if you see what I mean,... binary.
数独 is very big in Japan. The little nine-digit puzzle, fill-in-the-blanks are sold by news vendors like crossword puzzles are here in America, and even though I have a BS in Fractal Mathematics, I don't have the patience for puzzles in booklets (Probably because I'm Hyper-active and can't stay put unless I have to).
Post a pic of one of your cardstock models somewhere or set a link to one, I'd love to see one of them.
...so I strayed a tad from Doctrinal issues >>Points at Steve and Blames Him<<< Hahahaha!
You were an A-GANGER!?! I am THUNDERSTRUCK! I spent four years in M-Div aboard the USS POGY SSN647, a Sturgeon class, steamin' fast attack homeported out of Pearl harbor. The memories of things I haven't thought about in 34 years are cascading back. I can hear the hiss of steam as we would bypass around and open the Main Steam Root Valves. I can hear the chatter and blast of the steam traps as we'd blow them down to the bilge. I can smell the hot lagging. I can feel the poppet valves through the throttle handwheel as they'd lift.
One of my memories is of the time an A-ganger had to dive into the #1 Sanitary Tank (that's where we stored the poop until we had enough to warrant blowing it overboard) to clear the inboard sea-valve, which had been fouled by a pair of skivvy drawers somebody (nobody ever confessed) had flushed. Cleaning him up when he came out of that tank was more diligent than going through de-con coming out of the reactor compartment! You have EVEN MORE of my respect now, Gen-2!
A synchronous aspect of the effects of your post is that God taught me these things about the deceitfulnes of MY OWN heart in the engine room of the Pogy, years before I ever heard of TWI or even knew how to open a Bible!
You were an A-GANGER!?! I am THUNDERSTRUCK! I spent four years in M-Div aboard the USS POGY SSN647, a Sturgeon class, steamin' fast attack homeported out of Pearl harbor. The memories of things I haven't thought about in 34 years are cascading back. I can hear the hiss of steam as we would bypass around and open the Main Steam Root Valves. I can hear the chatter and blast of the steam traps as we'd blow them down to the bilge. I can smell the hot lagging. I can feel the poppet valves through the throttle handwheel as they'd lift.
One of my memories is of the time an A-ganger had to dive into the #1 Sanitary Tank (that's where we stored the poop until we had enough to warrant blowing it overboard) to clear the inboard sea-valve, which had been fouled by a pair of skivvy drawers somebody (nobody ever confessed) had flushed. Cleaning him up when he came out of that tank was more diligent than going through de-con coming out of the reactor compartment! You have EVEN MORE of my respect now, Gen-2!
A synchronous aspect of the effects of your post is that God taught me these things about the deceitfulnes of MY OWN heart in the engine room of the Pogy, years before I ever heard of TWI or even knew how to open a Bible!
Love,
Steve
False Alarm there Steve Lortz!
I was never an A-Ganger I was never on Submarines, I was never in the Navy. My dad was. He revelled in telling his sea stories to me when I was growing up. I just know some about what life was like on Subs from him, But he told me that the "Nukes" had to stay late to shut down the reactor whenever they pulled in. while their closest non-nuclear counterparts (the A-Gangers) hit the beach.
My dad has since passed away, but I'm glad to know his service would have been a plus in your eyes. He started as an A-Ganger on a sub, but volunteered to become a Navy SEAL, where he served honorably till he got out. I was in the Marines from May 2001 till June 2007. I got out as a Sergeant (E-5), even though I made Corporal (E-4) 3 times before getting out due to some little NJP's (which you guys called Captain's Mast - as I understand these things). No Good Conduct Awards for Gen-2, and they kept sending me to places where people didn't like me and shot at me,... Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq. ...So I kept telling them how I felt about that >snicker< and God help the poor O-ganger that thought Gen-2 was his playtoy! ...even if that did cost me a stripe once.
So here's one you'll get:
MANEUVERING, CONN, Make turns for 25 knots.
(What would "Verbatim Compliance" tell you your answer should be? - Would Rickover be proud of you?)
Hey I had MOS's for Combat Engineer and Vehicle Mechanic with the 2nd MEF (you guys had NEC's - right?), but I have a good heart, and God saw to it that I came home alive. Not all of my Corps friends (Marine Corps) can say that.
My God, you two, stop speaking Greek here will ya?
I’d like to comment on one item that Steve wrote:
“In the 20th century PFAL, Wierwille turned my understanding of the the Bible inside out. I've been working for the past few years on turning my understanding of the Bible right side out again. Unfortunately, I've developed a suspicion that Jerome and Augustine, in the fifth century, also turned our understanding of what Paul wrote in the 1st century inside out.”
This may or may not involve the exegesis/ eisegesis topic in specifics, but hopefully it’ll help in the overall understanding of where VP turned things “inside out” for some of you. Depending on whence someone came in their theological upbringing he or she may have found the ideas espoused in PFAL good or bad. Most people who signed the green card ususally didn’t have a background from whence to come.
That wasn’t the case with me, but that’s another story. What is important is the “understanding”. If, like me, you were a Roman Catholic who had just been given initial Bible teaching a couple of years before PFAL (basically through Pentecostalism), then the stuff in PFAL was not hard at all to fathom. If you were, however, from a Protestant background in the Reformed tradition (whether or not you listened at your church when you were younger) then some of the ideas were possibly earth shattering.
Speaking in tongues was available.
The dead were dead until the resurrections.
There were dispensations in God’s purposes.
There was a future for Israel.
Jesus was not God.
Many more...of course.
But every issue that you might bring up in the PFAL class has/had theological history to it. It was not done in a vacuum historically. When Steve uses the term “right side out again”, I feel that some, if not all, here at GS agree that what they were taught had no basis in classic Christian theology and that is just not the case. Please don’t get me wrong, VP plagiarized so much that it makes one sick, but still, it was not “new”. It was just put together in slick, palatable doses. Further, I'm tired of talking about his (im)practical application of it and it's smarmy results...please.
BTW, Jerome and Augustine did, IMHO, turn the understanding of what Paul wrote on it’s proverbial ear. Allegorizing and “spiritualizing” what is plain and logical in Scripture will do that. Now, some of you Catholics out there can start with the Bob-bashing.
Well Understanding, Meat and Milk, and also the heart.
God knows that all of us wish to be in good with Him. Even an unbeliever, given irrefutable proof of God, would wish to be.
But the people that were Way Corps, according to what I heard, were never "open" to honest reproof form people who were beneath them on the TWI foodchain. They were virtually immune to criticism from lesser beings, and only a foolish babelet would set himself to offer any to those gods-that-walked-amongst-men (some Corps). This is something my Dad and a friend of his told me once
Yet they knew,... God is no respecter of persons,... that he looks on the heart,... and that the youngest child was just as important to God as the most mature. If you come from a big family you can see the parallels here. Dad/Mom loves every one of their kids, and even though some are older, the youngest and least experienced are also just as treasured. Offend them, and you'll have to deal with a parent who's not likely to see your point of view as valid.
Interestingly, in at least one of the verses dealing with this milk and meat stuff,... This concept is mentioned. Walk in love towards the Babes, ye meat-eaters.
And that prayer I gave at the end - a couple of posts back,... I'm quoting what Jesus said to God - He is the ultimate Big Brother, makin' sure not to step on the lil'uns.
(What would "Verbatim Compliance" tell you your answer should be? - Would Rickover be proud of you?)
"CONN, MANEUVERING, Make turns for 25 knots, Aye!" and after the engines came up to speed, "CONN, MANEUVERING, Making turns for 25 knots." at which the phone talker in CONN would reply "MANEUVERING, CONN, Making turns for 25 knots, Aye!
I didn't really care if Admiral Rickover was proud of me. I just didn't want him MAD at me!
My first exposure to the need for good hermaneutics, to recognizing the difference between exegesis and eisegesis (though I didn't know those technical terms at the time), was the requirement to operate the power plant in "Verbatim Compliance with Posted Procedure." The Reactor Plant Control Manual and the Engineering Department Operating Procedures were together about five times as long as a Bible, and we had to be ready at any time to go before a board of officers and justify our decisions and actions from exactly what was written in the manuals. I expect I didn't find my experience with TWI to be as nit-picky and oppressive as some others did because of my previous experience in the nuclear power program.
Your service as a Marine still commands my respect. My Pop was a Major in the National Guard who fought in Italy during WWII. He had to have some non-combat-related surgery, and his replacement was killed in the landings at Anzio. My step-daughter spent 12 years as a cryptologist in the Navy. She had to learn how to deal with some of the issues peculiar to females that you brought up in your post. She never had to stand any masts that I know of, but if she did, she was never busted for anything. She is very petite, and looks a lot like the picture you post, but then again, she outwitted a serial rapist when she was 16 years old, and had to go testify against him when he was finally caught. She is one tough cookie. She went on a date once with the French Foreign Legion!
Hey! Maybe your dad was the A-ganger who had to go diving in the #1 Sanitary Tank! Did he ever tell you any sea-stories like that?
Some people call this process, of learning by heart, "internalization." When we practice anything to the point that we can think it or do it, paying absolutely no attention to what we're thinking or doing, we have internalized that thing.
Now this English figurative definition of "heart" certainly doesn't have an exact, one-to-one correspondence with the use of the Hebrew word leb in Jeremiah 17:9a, and the word could well mean something else in a different context, but I think there is good evidence for thinking Jeremiah's use of leb here means something very similar to "what a person has learned by heart."
Proverbs 2:1-5 "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee... and apply thine heart [leb] to understanding... ...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God."
Proverbs 3:3 "Let not mercy and truth forsake thee... write them upon the table of thine heart [leb]:"
Proverbs 4:4 (As Gen-2 already pointed out) "He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart [leb] retain my words..."
Proverbs 4:20-23 "My son, attend to my words... ...keep them in the midst of thine heart [lebab, the innermost part of the heart]... Keep thy heart [leb] with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."
Proverbs 6:20-21a "My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: Bind them continually upon thine heart [leb]..."
Proverbs 7:1-3 "My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee... ...write them upon the table of thine heart [leb]"
There are a lot more. It's interesting to note that many of the places where the Bible uses leb in this sense are concentrated in Proverbs.
There are a lot of uses of leb in Psalms also, but they seem to carry some different senses.
Love,
Steve
Have you thought about looking at Deuteronomy 29: 18, 19 . . . . and Deuteronomy 30:17 for the background of the verse?
Have you thought about looking at Deuteronomy 29: 18, 19 . . . . and Deuteronomy 30:17 for the background of the verse?
Thanks for pointing me to those verses, geisha. I hadn't noticed them before. "Heart" is either leb or lebab, and they talk about people turning their hearts away from the Lord and the words of the covenant. I do think they can be connected to Jeremiah 17:9a through Jeremiah 17:5, "Thus saith the Lord; cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart [leb] departeth from the Lord." I think the use of leb in 17:5 sets the context for the use of leb in 17:9a. We'll look at this some more later on.
Matthew 12:35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."
Luke 6:43-46 "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit... A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good: and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Not everybody has the same attitude of heart. Some people have predominantly good attitudes of heart. Some peoples' attitudes of heart are mainly evil. Why the difference? I submit that people who habitually discipline their minds to dwell on good things internalize those things, and learn good "by heart." The people who allow their thoughts to habitually dwell on evil things learn evil "by heart."
What's this business about "treasure"?
Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
"Treasures" are things we attach value to. If we attach certain values to things, as a matter of habit, our hearts will attach the same values to those things. If we habitually rationalize twisting the words of the Word to make them say what we want, then our hearts will tell us that it is good and clean to twist the words of the Word. If we habitually rationalize drugging and raping young girls, then our hearts will tell us that it is good and clean to drug and rape young girls. If we habitually rationalize that we are serving the Lord when we do these things, then our hearts will tell us that we are still serving the Lord, even if we aren't.
More later. I'm gonna go spend time with one of my sisters that I haven't seen in a few months. We need to talk about what we're gonna do with our Mom.
LOL! Tolkien is another written artifact I've studied for decades. A couple of years ago, I was startled to realize that if you take out the "he said"s, Aragorn and Gimli sometimes speak in the alliterative style of Anglo-Saxon verse. I don't think Tolkien did it deliberately. I think he learned the style "by heart" translating Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, etc., and it just seemed natural to him that those characters would speak in that style. None of the hobbits ever did, that I've noticed!
Matthew 12:35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."
Luke 6:43-46 "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit... A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good: and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Not everybody has the same attitude of heart. Some people have predominantly good attitudes of heart. Some peoples' attitudes of heart are mainly evil. Why the difference? I submit that people who habitually discipline their minds to dwell on good things internalize those things, and learn good "by heart." The people who allow their thoughts to habitually dwell on evil things learn evil "by heart."
What's this business about "treasure"?
Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
"Treasures" are things we attach value to. If we attach certain values to things, as a matter of habit, our hearts will attach the same values to those things. If we habitually rationalize twisting the words of the Word to make them say what we want, then our hearts will tell us that it is good and clean to twist the words of the Word. If we habitually rationalize drugging and raping young girls, then our hearts will tell us that it is good and clean to drug and rape young girls. If we habitually rationalize that we are serving the Lord when we do these things, then our hearts will tell us that we are still serving the Lord, even if we aren't.
More later. I'm gonna go spend time with one of my sisters that I haven't seen in a few months. We need to talk about what we're gonna do with our Mom.
Love,
Steve
Luke 18: 18 A ruler asked Him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—God. 20 You know the commandments:
Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; honor your father and mother. "
21 "I have kept all these from my youth," he said.22 When Jesus heard this, He told him, "You still lack one thing: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."23 After he heard this, he became extremely sad, because he was very rich.
So, this rich man comes to Jesus to ask about eternal life, he came to the right place, he knew who to ask. . . . and Jesus tells Him straight up. . . no one is good but one . . God.
Fairly emphatic and as plain as can be, He even said "why are you calling me good?" Then, out of all the things Jesus could say to answer the man. . . He gives Him the law.
The guy answered "Yep. . . . I did all that". Well, what is wrong with this picture? The law can't save anyone and Jesus said there is no one good, but God. The same Jesus who said. . . . A good man brings forth good things.
The rich man revealed something about his heart. He had done what was good. He said he kept the law, he thought that was enough.
He should have answered, nothing I can do is good enough. Jesus told him right up front, "You are no good".
So, does Jesus say . . . . you are so good, you don't have to do anything else? No . . . He told him . . . . go sell everything you have. . . . and come follow me. . .well, the guy was rich so that was basically a non-starter. It was a lot to lose.
_______________________
When they asked Jesus, what shall we do that we might work the works of God?, He said. . . . This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent.
Ezekiel and Jeremiah both speak of God creating a new heart in us . . . not patching the old one up. . . . or training it. . .or teaching it, or even sending it a remote signal boost. . . . but, God giving a brand new one.
Both Jesus and Paul quote this .
Something else to consider in light of that section of Jeremiah and the heart is Roman's 7. The defective nature of our hearts. The laws inability to correct it? The New Covenant. Maybe that was the point of the verse you are looking at? Just a thought?
I love what you said about habitual bad behavior or even wrong understanding being so ingrained in the heart. If you tell a false teacher or a mislead follower that they are wrong or false. . .. they will be shocked you could even think that. Offended! They believe they make a like profession of faith. Maybe the reality is. . . . it is something completely twisted. . . . and the behavior a result of misplaced faith.
Their hearts are deceived. Just like our hearts were deceived.
Now, some of you... ...out there can start with the Bob-bashing.
RE
I don't think there's any need for anybody to be bashing anybody. I think some people "bash" here at Greasespot for two reasons. 1) Bashing was what Wierwille did, and taught us. Wierwille's bashing never turned into flame wars, though, because nobody was ever allowed to talk back, and 2) Many people here are justifiably angry because they've been lied to, by a variety of groups and individuals, and feel frustrated because they can't express their anger directly to those who did the lying.
Those things being said, Bob, I enjoy discussing things with you, even though... perhaps because of the fact that... we disagree on some points. I'm looking forward to addressing some of the other topics you brought up when the time and place are right.
I love what you said about habitual bad behavior or even wrong understanding being so ingrained in the heart. If you tell a false teacher or a mislead follower that they are wrong or false. . .. they will be shocked you could even think that. Offended! They believe they make a like profession of faith. Maybe the reality is. . . . it is something completely twisted. . . . and the behavior a result of misplaced faith.
Their hearts are deceived. Just like our hearts were deceived.
I don't know if you had any experience with Momentus, but the response you describe is very exaggerated by the Momentus training.
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geisha779
Hebrews 4:12 .. . . to whom is it written? It was written to the Jews who had intellectually agreed to the gospel, the facts about Jesus, the authority and power of the 1st century church, but were no
geisha779
Hey Gen-2 I am curious what people think strong meat really is? :) Perhaps it is. . . to the measure of the stature of the fullness in Christ. . . . and not some super-duper special x-ray ability,
cman
Excuse me there Bob, but your post has a narrow view. I will not use the word you used to describe a perspective. Other words come to mind. But, you are, as all, entitled to your own works.
Gen-2
I guess that as long as you can "Mature" and keep your nose out of the clouds and remember to love other people that God has also fathered. But that's where most of the "Meat-Eaters" screw-up. TWI being a prime example. They became Giants of Malice (1 Corinthians 14:20), puffed up with knowledge and never knowing anything as they ought to have known it, and they used that liberty as an occasion to the flesh. God often hides things from people who gain knowledge (the meat eaters) things that He openly shows to the babes, and to those who are physically challenged in life. It's His way. Says so in many places. The more learned you become the more that some of the simple and obvious things will elude you, and the temptation is to think that because of your learning,... you are better. Beware of that thought, it's a lie. Some of God's very favorite children have been babes.
"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."
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Steve Lortz
Roy, I found your post on "meat and milk" to be very appropriate to this discussion. I could summarize what I want to say about "be not high-minded, but fear" in a single brief post, but then it would just be more milk, not good milk, but a lump of curdled milk. It was interesting to read something from the view point of someone who is studying Orthodoxy. The interdenominational school where I taught was destroyed because the board, who were evangelical protestants, decided to fire the two teachers who were American Orthodox. The whole faculty, who were mostly evangelical protestants (I was a covert heretic, I told 'em I was a Free-Range Christian), resigned in solidarity with our American Orthodox brothers.
I have studied meat and milk in Hebrews 5:12-14, and it relates to DrWearWord's post about judgment, but that's a topic for another thread.
I say "Amen" to your closing prayer, Gen-2.
The problem with TWI was not that they served milk. They served kool-ade.
Love Steve
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Steve Lortz
Soooo..... what do I think the word "heart" means in Jermiah 17:9a?
Nearly every word has a literal meaning, and a range of figurative meanings.
The literal meaning of "heart" is the organ located near the center of the torso that beats. Nowadays, we know that the heart is the organ that pumps blood through the circulatory system, but they didn't know that at the time the Bible was written.
For a long time, a general figurative meaning for "heart" has been the seat of the emotions. Figurative meanings arise as metaphors based on some feature of a thing. I think the heart as the seat of the emotions arose because, when a person is excited by the release of adrenalin, a powerful emotional experience, the heart beats noticably faster. I think the Hebrew word "leb", translated "heart" in Jeremiah 17:9a had a broad range of figurative meanings. I think the Greek word "kardia", translated "heart" in the New Testament had a broad range of figurative meanings. I KNOW that the English word "heart" has a broad range of figurative meanings. I also know that none of those sets of figurative meanings match exactly.
So I'm going to look at a few verses that lead me to think that "heart" has a particular figurative meaning in the verse in question, but first, it's time to go eat Cheez-its and watch Project Runway with my wife.
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
I considered particle physics, or nuclear physics, But sitting in port on a naval vessel doing the calculations for Xenon poisoning while my buds in A-Div went home for the night to their families and friends....... Hey Steve, ever notice how sometimes the things you don't/didn't mind doing are what other people would never do, not in a million years? So I've been shooting lasers into ionized gasses this week and playing with plasma. Were you on a Sub Steve?
I wouldn't worry too much about Augustinian amplifications to our greater understanding. Just try waking up tomorrow and being more loving in your very real day, to each person you cross paths with. (that usually sounds soooo cornball to "knowledgeable Bible people). All of you here at GSC have a lot more head-knowledge than I do, I think, about the bible. But I'd be happy - just to play with the mustard seeds. On the other hand I'm designing a quantum computer that will work on the nanoscale and run off a watch battery for about 2 years, be 20 times better than this laptop I'm typing on and small enough to dance next to the angels on the head of a pin with plenty of floorspace for everyone to move around. It's all about getting a quantum field to "flip" reliably, doesn't really matter how,... off/on or one way then the other..... all I need is One and Zero - if you see what I mean,... binary.
数独 is very big in Japan. The little nine-digit puzzle, fill-in-the-blanks are sold by news vendors like crossword puzzles are here in America, and even though I have a BS in Fractal Mathematics, I don't have the patience for puzzles in booklets (Probably because I'm Hyper-active and can't stay put unless I have to).
Post a pic of one of your cardstock models somewhere or set a link to one, I'd love to see one of them.
...so I strayed a tad from Doctrinal issues >>Points at Steve and Blames Him<<< Hahahaha!
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve and others
here some past things I wrote
I know does tell about eating but it about life and need to eat to live
but it more about heart
they all go hand and hand
the one is nothing without the other
the spirit needs the soul to grow out of
and soul needs the spirit to grow from
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
I am not sure there is some deep meaning to heart here is there? You can spend time searching usages of the word heart I guess, but since we all have one. . . . figuratively and physically, I wonder if it will give us greater understanding? Especially if it is deceptive above all things!!
Things in the scriptures relate to being human. When Ezekiel juxtaposes a heart of stone with a heart of flesh . . . . we know what that means.
The heart is deceitful above all things. Do we deceive ourselves, do we deceive others? Are we deceiving ourselves when we think we are being true to who we are? Where does that usually lead us? Right into apostasy. Because. . . .scripture lays out a reality . . .our own reality changes with the seasons . . . . with our culture and with our heart.
God doesn't change. The reality of God never changes.
We can never deceive God though. We can lie to Him, make promises in His name and not keep them (big no no BTW) but, God isn't fooled. . . . when we do this, we fool ourselves.
Where does this deception issue from?
We all know where it comes from . . . . but, sometimes with scripture, explaining things transcend language. Where is the figurative heart located . . . . I don't have a clue. I cannot draw you a diagram, yet, I know what scripture means when it speaks of the figurative human heart. . . . I am human.
_________________________________________________________________________________
My opinion. . . . . a good verse to keep in mind when considering anything we think we may know from TWI . . . . or the gold we think we may have escaped with is
2 Timothy 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
As for exegesis. . . . milk, meat and maturity. . ..we can all read a text book . . . .I really don't think we need to write one to make a point or read out from scripture .. ..it relates to being human in relationship to God and it speaks to us on that level.
If we are not learning in that relationship. . . . and sharing in that capacity . . . that knowledge we try to glean is simply going to take us in circles or where our particular heart thinks God should be. We can even get caught up in one man's peculiar sin and rationalization. . . . it can sound great to our ears.
Jesus used to walk around and point to things. . .flowers, birds. . .. seeds. . . . he spoke of people . . . and not just random people, but people that were familiar. . . . like tax collectors or dishonest stewards. They may have been real people everyone was aware of. . . . I sometimes think this is the case. He was a wisdom teacher. . . . . and He said The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
When the Apostles taught. . . they spoke in relation to Jesus.. . . . who is our way of relating to God. They spoke authoritatively . . . . Jesus spoke in finality. . . and I really don't think there is any way to go beyond that.
I think the best bible teachers are the ones who simply speak from the security of relationship with the Lord and are comfortable with their knowledge of scriptures.
That is good exegesis.
Not that Greek or scholarship doesn't have its place. . . . it does, I have great respect for certain bible scholars. But, that in itself cannot give us the knowledge and understanding we seek.
The best book I ever read was A. W. Tozer Knowledge of the Holy. Stunning book.
He once said "The man or woman who is wholly or joyously surrendered to Christ can't make a wrong choice/any choice will be the right one."
Just my thoughts.
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geisha779
Steve,
When it says "above all things" . . . . what do you think that means? Above all things? What things? . . . . A turtles heart? A trees heart? What else is there to contrast with the human heart? Is it so deceitful. .. . . nothing compares to it?
Just curious.
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DrWearWord
God bless you all...
I once read online a list of contradictions in the bible compiled by Martin Luther. Being of the ilk years ago as a way believer I dismissed them as falsehoods yet fundamentally they stuck with me in my mind until years later when I was ready to face them with an objective approach.
Luther found so many blaring contradictions that it is any wonder how he mustered up the courage to nail anything to the door of orthodoxy.
Some contradictions can be found right in the verse with which they are written. :)
Some are in the context and the remote context and some rear their ugly head when we study were a word has been used before...
These contradictions follow logically all the way up to the top and God him/her self.
God is jealous, God is fickle, God is vindictive, God is kind, God has no evil whatsoever...
God punishes the serpent with eternal damnation for teaching us to think autonomously.
It seems God is angered by us obtaining knowledge yet we are to come unto a knowledge of the truth.
It is also knowledge that saves us for if we had no knowledge of our lord and that God raised him from the dead how could we believe and be saved?
It seems that only when we step back from the word do we begin to understand.
Much like the binary numbering system a contradiction is usually paired as is matter and anti matter, right and left brain, the observer and the observed. When this process becomes clear one has reached enlightenment their eyes are opened and they put on the image of the androgynous creator.
Just as we have two hands and two gloves and both hands should never accompany the same glove. The milk and the meat, the physical heart and the center of the will.
There is the surface meaning and then there is the meaning that is felt but never spoken and this meaning whether intentionally or unintentional is sewn within the fabric of the word, much like space and time are inseparably connected as waves and particles. The contradictions are purposely placed.
The occult is that contradiction keeps the mind perched between certainty and uncertainty. When we believe we know is when we realize we are fools and only when we become fools do we truly begin to understand.
For we will never know and appreciate love and faith without first knowing fear.
Thus the fool says there is no God and the fool is right, for the moment we think we know God then we realize how illusive God truly is. We can never know both the position and velocity of God for God is shrouded by the imperceptible. Zero never changes.
The bible says God is truth and truth never changes, then why two testaments? Why Does God transmute him/her self as Jehovah into trees, clouds, water, spirit a still small voice and then the son of God.
For only out of contradiction is there birth of thought and ideals. In understanding the process over the substance one becomes holy.
It is the process itself that is to be exalted above the actual substance.
Out of true and false, maybe is born. Out of grace and works is born compassion. Out of knowledge and spirit is born a new creature. Out of law and liberty is born freedom. Out of words and heart is born righteousness. The process is of the scales of Libra and in the balance of contradiction, wisdom is born...
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year2027
God first
thanks DrWearWord
out of zero we have zero
or from left we have the right
or Zero/God makes Serpent/Zero
God being the same as the Serpent = Zero/whole or whole/Zero
the two are different sides of learning
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
In English, there is a particular figurative meaning for the word "heart" that finds expression in the phrase "to learn something by heart" or "to know something by heart". It means to have practiced a thing to a degree that it can be said or done reflexively, without any need to pay attention to saying or doing it.
When a person first learns to drive a car, that person has to pay deliberate, very close attention to each and every action: where he puts each foot, how he holds the wheel, how he moves the wheel, where he looks, what he looks for, how far to depress the gas pedal, when to switch to the brake, how far to depress the brake pedal, how hard to push it. But as the driver gains experience, he can do all those things and pay attention to something else. He can do all that stuff on "automatic pilot", so to speak, and devote his attention to eating a cheeseburger and grooving to his favorite song on the classic rock station while he breezes down the highway.
Say our experienced driver is riding in the passenger seat while a friend is driving the car. The friend comes to a situation where our person would normally brake, but the friend doesn't. Our experienced driver finds his right foot stomping uselessly on the floor. It's a reflex. Our person has learned to drive a car "by heart."
Some people call this process, of learning by heart, "internalization." When we practice anything to the point that we can think it or do it, paying absolutely no attention to what we're thinking or doing, we have internalized that thing.
Now this English figurative definition of "heart" certainly doesn't have an exact, one-to-one correspondence with the use of the Hebrew word leb in Jeremiah 17:9a, and the word could well mean something else in a different context, but I think there is good evidence for thinking Jeremiah's use of leb here means something very similar to "what a person has learned by heart."
Proverbs 2:1-5 "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee... and apply thine heart [leb] to understanding... ...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God."
Proverbs 3:3 "Let not mercy and truth forsake thee... write them upon the table of thine heart [leb]:"
Proverbs 4:4 (As Gen-2 already pointed out) "He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart [leb] retain my words..."
Proverbs 4:20-23 "My son, attend to my words... ...keep them in the midst of thine heart [lebab, the innermost part of the heart]... Keep thy heart [leb] with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."
Proverbs 6:20-21a "My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: Bind them continually upon thine heart [leb]..."
Proverbs 7:1-3 "My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee... ...write them upon the table of thine heart [leb]"
There are a lot more. It's interesting to note that many of the places where the Bible uses leb in this sense are concentrated in Proverbs.
There are a lot of uses of leb in Psalms also, but they seem to carry some different senses.
All for now. In the old days I would have labored all day long and far into the night writing massive, convoluted posts. That was before I was diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder (the mild form, I haven't had any psychotic breaks like my wife has had) and learned how to recognize and deflect my manic swings. 40mg of generic Paxil per day helps, too! Have fun, guys! Our salvation doen't depend on THIS.
Love,
Steve
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JeffSjo
Yeah, same verses for me too! Interesting, and good I think.
---------------------------
Thanks for this Geisha!
"My opinion. . . . . a good verse to keep in mind when considering anything we think we may know from TWI . . . . or the gold we think we may have escaped with is
2 Timothy 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth."
---------------------------
"The heart is deceitful above all things"
Ok, so do we have gold from The Way International or not?
Or have we been given a false estimation of ourselves along with a false estimate of the worth of Way ministry doctrine.
I suspect that for each of us it will vary according to our own Way Ministry experience but I believe that certain Way Ministry trends are self-evident and worth watching out for. One of the most prevalent Way Ministry trend IMO is the TWI understanding what it is to be a meat eater, as oppose to being a babe that needs milk.
Isn't it eisegesis to teach that blatant adultery is ok for the "meat eaters"? ("spiritually mature" being the Way ministry phrase)Talk about reading into the scriptures to make it mean what Wierwille wanted! WTF?
Isn't it decieving ourself to assume that our own unique experieces make us the "chosen people" or "spiritually mature"? The answer is WE ARE DECIEVED if we think that adultery is for the mature, that our education alone makes us mature, or that the fact we've been led by Way ministry example to think that manipulation and/or bullying is the purview of the mature. BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL!
But also,referring to simple human nature I believe that it is normal to assume that we are among the smart, mature, chosen......etc. Especially if our authority figures tell us we are great so we don't see them for the vile, manipulative sociopaths that they really are! This IMO is ample evidence that the human heart is very, very deceitful.
Incorrect eisegesis just fuels the fire.
(I added a bit intending clarification.)
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Steve Lortz
You were an A-GANGER!?! I am THUNDERSTRUCK! I spent four years in M-Div aboard the USS POGY SSN647, a Sturgeon class, steamin' fast attack homeported out of Pearl harbor. The memories of things I haven't thought about in 34 years are cascading back. I can hear the hiss of steam as we would bypass around and open the Main Steam Root Valves. I can hear the chatter and blast of the steam traps as we'd blow them down to the bilge. I can smell the hot lagging. I can feel the poppet valves through the throttle handwheel as they'd lift.
One of my memories is of the time an A-ganger had to dive into the #1 Sanitary Tank (that's where we stored the poop until we had enough to warrant blowing it overboard) to clear the inboard sea-valve, which had been fouled by a pair of skivvy drawers somebody (nobody ever confessed) had flushed. Cleaning him up when he came out of that tank was more diligent than going through de-con coming out of the reactor compartment! You have EVEN MORE of my respect now, Gen-2!
A synchronous aspect of the effects of your post is that God taught me these things about the deceitfulnes of MY OWN heart in the engine room of the Pogy, years before I ever heard of TWI or even knew how to open a Bible!
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
False Alarm there Steve Lortz!
I was never an A-Ganger I was never on Submarines, I was never in the Navy. My dad was. He revelled in telling his sea stories to me when I was growing up. I just know some about what life was like on Subs from him, But he told me that the "Nukes" had to stay late to shut down the reactor whenever they pulled in. while their closest non-nuclear counterparts (the A-Gangers) hit the beach.
My dad has since passed away, but I'm glad to know his service would have been a plus in your eyes. He started as an A-Ganger on a sub, but volunteered to become a Navy SEAL, where he served honorably till he got out. I was in the Marines from May 2001 till June 2007. I got out as a Sergeant (E-5), even though I made Corporal (E-4) 3 times before getting out due to some little NJP's (which you guys called Captain's Mast - as I understand these things). No Good Conduct Awards for Gen-2, and they kept sending me to places where people didn't like me and shot at me,... Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq. ...So I kept telling them how I felt about that >snicker< and God help the poor O-ganger that thought Gen-2 was his playtoy! ...even if that did cost me a stripe once.
So here's one you'll get:
MANEUVERING, CONN, Make turns for 25 knots.
(What would "Verbatim Compliance" tell you your answer should be? - Would Rickover be proud of you?)
Hey I had MOS's for Combat Engineer and Vehicle Mechanic with the 2nd MEF (you guys had NEC's - right?), but I have a good heart, and God saw to it that I came home alive. Not all of my Corps friends (Marine Corps) can say that.
Resume turns for current thread.......
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roberterasmus
My God, you two, stop speaking Greek here will ya?
I’d like to comment on one item that Steve wrote:
This may or may not involve the exegesis/ eisegesis topic in specifics, but hopefully it’ll help in the overall understanding of where VP turned things “inside out” for some of you. Depending on whence someone came in their theological upbringing he or she may have found the ideas espoused in PFAL good or bad. Most people who signed the green card ususally didn’t have a background from whence to come.
That wasn’t the case with me, but that’s another story. What is important is the “understanding”. If, like me, you were a Roman Catholic who had just been given initial Bible teaching a couple of years before PFAL (basically through Pentecostalism), then the stuff in PFAL was not hard at all to fathom. If you were, however, from a Protestant background in the Reformed tradition (whether or not you listened at your church when you were younger) then some of the ideas were possibly earth shattering.
Speaking in tongues was available.
The dead were dead until the resurrections.
There were dispensations in God’s purposes.
There was a future for Israel.
Jesus was not God.
Many more...of course.
But every issue that you might bring up in the PFAL class has/had theological history to it. It was not done in a vacuum historically. When Steve uses the term “right side out again”, I feel that some, if not all, here at GS agree that what they were taught had no basis in classic Christian theology and that is just not the case. Please don’t get me wrong, VP plagiarized so much that it makes one sick, but still, it was not “new”. It was just put together in slick, palatable doses. Further, I'm tired of talking about his (im)practical application of it and it's smarmy results...please.
BTW, Jerome and Augustine did, IMHO, turn the understanding of what Paul wrote on it’s proverbial ear. Allegorizing and “spiritualizing” what is plain and logical in Scripture will do that. Now, some of you Catholics out there can start with the Bob-bashing.
RE
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Gen-2
Well Understanding, Meat and Milk, and also the heart.
God knows that all of us wish to be in good with Him. Even an unbeliever, given irrefutable proof of God, would wish to be.
But the people that were Way Corps, according to what I heard, were never "open" to honest reproof form people who were beneath them on the TWI foodchain. They were virtually immune to criticism from lesser beings, and only a foolish babelet would set himself to offer any to those gods-that-walked-amongst-men (some Corps). This is something my Dad and a friend of his told me once
Yet they knew,... God is no respecter of persons,... that he looks on the heart,... and that the youngest child was just as important to God as the most mature. If you come from a big family you can see the parallels here. Dad/Mom loves every one of their kids, and even though some are older, the youngest and least experienced are also just as treasured. Offend them, and you'll have to deal with a parent who's not likely to see your point of view as valid.
Interestingly, in at least one of the verses dealing with this milk and meat stuff,... This concept is mentioned. Walk in love towards the Babes, ye meat-eaters.
And that prayer I gave at the end - a couple of posts back,... I'm quoting what Jesus said to God - He is the ultimate Big Brother, makin' sure not to step on the lil'uns.
NOW,...................... That's HEART! That's Understanding, That's Love!
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Steve Lortz
"CONN, MANEUVERING, Make turns for 25 knots, Aye!" and after the engines came up to speed, "CONN, MANEUVERING, Making turns for 25 knots." at which the phone talker in CONN would reply "MANEUVERING, CONN, Making turns for 25 knots, Aye!
I didn't really care if Admiral Rickover was proud of me. I just didn't want him MAD at me!
My first exposure to the need for good hermaneutics, to recognizing the difference between exegesis and eisegesis (though I didn't know those technical terms at the time), was the requirement to operate the power plant in "Verbatim Compliance with Posted Procedure." The Reactor Plant Control Manual and the Engineering Department Operating Procedures were together about five times as long as a Bible, and we had to be ready at any time to go before a board of officers and justify our decisions and actions from exactly what was written in the manuals. I expect I didn't find my experience with TWI to be as nit-picky and oppressive as some others did because of my previous experience in the nuclear power program.
Your service as a Marine still commands my respect. My Pop was a Major in the National Guard who fought in Italy during WWII. He had to have some non-combat-related surgery, and his replacement was killed in the landings at Anzio. My step-daughter spent 12 years as a cryptologist in the Navy. She had to learn how to deal with some of the issues peculiar to females that you brought up in your post. She never had to stand any masts that I know of, but if she did, she was never busted for anything. She is very petite, and looks a lot like the picture you post, but then again, she outwitted a serial rapist when she was 16 years old, and had to go testify against him when he was finally caught. She is one tough cookie. She went on a date once with the French Foreign Legion!
Hey! Maybe your dad was the A-ganger who had to go diving in the #1 Sanitary Tank! Did he ever tell you any sea-stories like that?
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Have you thought about looking at Deuteronomy 29: 18, 19 . . . . and Deuteronomy 30:17 for the background of the verse?
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Steve Lortz
Thanks for pointing me to those verses, geisha. I hadn't noticed them before. "Heart" is either leb or lebab, and they talk about people turning their hearts away from the Lord and the words of the covenant. I do think they can be connected to Jeremiah 17:9a through Jeremiah 17:5, "Thus saith the Lord; cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart [leb] departeth from the Lord." I think the use of leb in 17:5 sets the context for the use of leb in 17:9a. We'll look at this some more later on.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Matthew 12:35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."
Luke 6:43-46 "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit... A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good: and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Not everybody has the same attitude of heart. Some people have predominantly good attitudes of heart. Some peoples' attitudes of heart are mainly evil. Why the difference? I submit that people who habitually discipline their minds to dwell on good things internalize those things, and learn good "by heart." The people who allow their thoughts to habitually dwell on evil things learn evil "by heart."
What's this business about "treasure"?
Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
"Treasures" are things we attach value to. If we attach certain values to things, as a matter of habit, our hearts will attach the same values to those things. If we habitually rationalize twisting the words of the Word to make them say what we want, then our hearts will tell us that it is good and clean to twist the words of the Word. If we habitually rationalize drugging and raping young girls, then our hearts will tell us that it is good and clean to drug and rape young girls. If we habitually rationalize that we are serving the Lord when we do these things, then our hearts will tell us that we are still serving the Lord, even if we aren't.
More later. I'm gonna go spend time with one of my sisters that I haven't seen in a few months. We need to talk about what we're gonna do with our Mom.
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
Don't shoot me! .....I thought it was funny... :)
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Steve Lortz
LOL! Tolkien is another written artifact I've studied for decades. A couple of years ago, I was startled to realize that if you take out the "he said"s, Aragorn and Gimli sometimes speak in the alliterative style of Anglo-Saxon verse. I don't think Tolkien did it deliberately. I think he learned the style "by heart" translating Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, etc., and it just seemed natural to him that those characters would speak in that style. None of the hobbits ever did, that I've noticed!
Thanks, Gen-2!
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Luke 18: 18 A ruler asked Him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—God. 20 You know the commandments:
Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; honor your father and mother. "
21 "I have kept all these from my youth," he said.22 When Jesus heard this, He told him, "You still lack one thing: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."23 After he heard this, he became extremely sad, because he was very rich.
So, this rich man comes to Jesus to ask about eternal life, he came to the right place, he knew who to ask. . . . and Jesus tells Him straight up. . . no one is good but one . . God.
Fairly emphatic and as plain as can be, He even said "why are you calling me good?" Then, out of all the things Jesus could say to answer the man. . . He gives Him the law.
The guy answered "Yep. . . . I did all that". Well, what is wrong with this picture? The law can't save anyone and Jesus said there is no one good, but God. The same Jesus who said. . . . A good man brings forth good things.
The rich man revealed something about his heart. He had done what was good. He said he kept the law, he thought that was enough.
He should have answered, nothing I can do is good enough. Jesus told him right up front, "You are no good".
So, does Jesus say . . . . you are so good, you don't have to do anything else? No . . . He told him . . . . go sell everything you have. . . . and come follow me. . .well, the guy was rich so that was basically a non-starter. It was a lot to lose.
_______________________
When they asked Jesus, what shall we do that we might work the works of God?, He said. . . . This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent.
Ezekiel and Jeremiah both speak of God creating a new heart in us . . . not patching the old one up. . . . or training it. . .or teaching it, or even sending it a remote signal boost. . . . but, God giving a brand new one.
Both Jesus and Paul quote this .
Something else to consider in light of that section of Jeremiah and the heart is Roman's 7. The defective nature of our hearts. The laws inability to correct it? The New Covenant. Maybe that was the point of the verse you are looking at? Just a thought?
I love what you said about habitual bad behavior or even wrong understanding being so ingrained in the heart. If you tell a false teacher or a mislead follower that they are wrong or false. . .. they will be shocked you could even think that. Offended! They believe they make a like profession of faith. Maybe the reality is. . . . it is something completely twisted. . . . and the behavior a result of misplaced faith.
Their hearts are deceived. Just like our hearts were deceived.
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Steve Lortz
I don't think there's any need for anybody to be bashing anybody. I think some people "bash" here at Greasespot for two reasons. 1) Bashing was what Wierwille did, and taught us. Wierwille's bashing never turned into flame wars, though, because nobody was ever allowed to talk back, and 2) Many people here are justifiably angry because they've been lied to, by a variety of groups and individuals, and feel frustrated because they can't express their anger directly to those who did the lying.
Those things being said, Bob, I enjoy discussing things with you, even though... perhaps because of the fact that... we disagree on some points. I'm looking forward to addressing some of the other topics you brought up when the time and place are right.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
I don't know if you had any experience with Momentus, but the response you describe is very exaggerated by the Momentus training.
Love,
Steve
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