Sorry, OT. Steve, thank you for inadvertently answering a question I had. You answered them with the Ezekiel verses :)
I know, after Armeggedon, when Christ returns and judges the nations (the gentiles) and separates out the ones to enter into the Millenium (those who helped the Jew by their works) and enter into the land, and the ones who don't get to enter, I had wondered - where was Israel and the followers of Messiah, because I knew most of them had died and been martyred by this time - although there obviously was a remnant who did meet him.
The verse answers it - God brings them to life to enter into the land. The first resurrection of the just. What I also find fascinating is they are flesh and bone, but no blood. Why? because they are now "powered" or energized by Spirt - the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and took him from the grave under the earth through the heavens to the Heavenlies.
I believe, when Christ appeared to the Apostles after his resurrection and said, to Thomas I believe, "touch me, handle me, a spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see me." He did not have blood. His life force so to speak - was now spirit. I also think he was showing them what their new eternal bodies would look like. Just a thought.
I may be wrong - but those verses in Ezekiel did clear something up for me. Thanks!
Sorry, OT. Steve, thank you for inadvertently answering a question I had. You answered them with the Ezekiel verses :)
...
I may be wrong - but those verses in Ezekiel did clear something up for me. Thanks!
You're welcome, Sunesis! No need to be sorry. Even though Ezekiel is in the set of books we call the "Old Testament", the actual Old Covenant itself is Deuteronomy 5-28, summed up in Deuteronomy 29:1, "These are the words of the covenant [Deuteronomy 5-28], which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb."
I think the literal meaning of "spirit" in what we call the Old Testament is "air in motion" and the figurative meaning is "life as evidenced by the power to move". By the first century, "spirit" took on a multi-layered extension of meanings, especially among Paul's readers. It'll be fun when we get there. But I think we need to look at "nephesh" or OT "soul" before jumping forward to the first century.
We're looking at Genesis 2:7 to see how Wierwille's definition of salvation lines up with what's actually written in the Word. We've seen that God formed man of the dust of the ground, got his respiration going, and man became a living soul.
Did the writers of the Bible believe souls to be immortal? Ezekiel 18:4b says, "...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Again in Ezekiel 18:20a, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die..."
The Hebrew word translated "soul" in Genesis 2:7 is nephesh. The word translated "living" is chai. When God breathed into man's nostrils the breath (neshamah) of life (chaiyim), man became a nephesh chai, a living soul. But there are places where the scriptures also use the phrase nephesh muth, "DEAD soul".
Leviticus 21:11a "Neither shall he [the high priest] go in to any dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"]..."
Numbers 6:6 "All the days that he [a person who vowed the vow of a Nazarite] separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"]."
The uses in Numbers 19 are instructive,
"11 He that toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man shall be unclean seven days."
"13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man that is dead [muth "dead"], and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord, and that soul [nephesh "soul"] shall be cut off from Israel..."
"16 And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"], or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days."
Not only do we see from these verses that souls are not immortal, we also see that they are not immaterial. Dead souls can be TOUCHED!
While a person is breathing, he is a living soul. When he gives up the spirit, that is to say, when that person stops breathing, what's left is a dead soul. What we would call a "corpse", the Bible calls a "dead soul".
Genesis 2:7 indicates that a living man is a two part being, with a dust component and a breath or spirit (air in motion) component. This two part being is called a living soul. When a soul stops breathing, it becomes a one part being called a dead soul.
Wierwille taught that Adam's and Eve's spirits died on the very day that they sinned. That cannot have been the case. If their spirits had died, they would have stopped breathing, and their souls would have dropped down dead, then and there.
Wierwille taught that salvation consists of being made whole by receiving the gift of holy spirit that was first poured out on the day of Pentecost. If Adam's and Eve's spirits didn't die, and the gift of holy spirit is not a replacement for those spirits, then what is it?
We've seen from Genesis 3:19b, Genesis 18:27 and Psalm 103:14 that the Bible associates identity with the dust component. This is confirmed in Ezekiel 37:12-14,
"12b ...Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and cause YOU to come up out of your graves..."
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought YOU up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit in YOU, and ye shall live..." (emphasis added)
Since the Bible associates identity with the dust component, and since a dust component that doesn't breathe dies (becomes a dead soul), what CAN a dead soul know?
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10,
"4 For him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgetten [they no longer remember anything].
"6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun..."
"10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest."
Psalm 6:4&5,
"4 Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
"5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave, who shall give thee thanks?"
Psalm 30:9,
"9 What profit is there in my blood, when I shall go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee" Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psalm 88:11&12,
"11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?
"12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Psalm 115:17,
"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Psalm 146:2-4,
"2 While I live I will praise the Lord: I will sing my praises unto my God while I have any being.
"3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
"4 His breath [ruach "air in motion"] goeth forth, HE returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (emphasis added)
When a soul dies, it stops breathing. Its spirit component leaves, and just blows about somewhere else. The dust component, the part that recognizes "me" as "me", returns to the earth from which it was formed. In that very day, its thoughts perish.
Because a soul's literal experience of death is the same as its literal experience of a dreamless sleep, the Bible often uses sleep as a metaphor for death.
Psalm 13:3,
"3 Consider and hear me O lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
Since the Bible also refers to death as a soul returning to its dust, Daniel can combine both these metaphors,
Daniel 12:2
"2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..."
There are numerous places in the books of Kings and Chronicles where the phrase "slept with his fathers" is used to indicate that various people have died. The gospel of John illustrates that the sleep/death metaphor was common, and sometimes caused confusion, even in New Testament times, as evidenced in John 11,
"11 These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them [his disciples], Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may wake him out of sleep.
"12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
"13 Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought he had spoken of taking rest in sleep.
"14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
There is no consciousness in death: the dead know not anything, there is no reward, no memory, no love, no hatred, no envy, no portion, no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, no remembrance, no thanks, no profit, no praise, no declaration of truth, nor of lovingkindness, nor of faithfulness, no knowing of wonders, nor of righteousness, no light, no sound: only forgetfulness, darkness, silence and destruction.
If this was all that Israel had to look forward to, then it's no wonder they said, "Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts" in Ezekiel 37:1-14. And that makes it all the more wonderful that God sets forth the promise of resurrection in this passage!
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed
And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed
Not only do we see from these verses that souls are not immortal, we also see that they are not immaterial. Dead souls can be TOUCHED!
I really want you to be more specific about that, if you would, because I'm curious. I would think that this is figurative language here Since I don't know how to touch a dead soul,... much less a live one. I didn't know that the sense of touch could be applied to souls
I always thought a Body without a soul was a corpse and there were rules about dead bodies and being unclean under the law.
I was pretty sure that this is what that verse meant.
But you seem to be saying souls can be handled, at least dead ones.
Steve, do a word study on Shoel or gravedom. yes, the flesh dies. But, the soul goes down to the grave.
You have lots of dead souls in Revelation asking for vengence, and being told they must wait a bit longer until their brothers have also been martyred.
When Jesus used the parable of Lazarus, if they were truly, dead, I doubt he would have been talking about what Lazarus and the rich man were going through.
If you study the souls in the grave/sheol/hell, you will note that they are conscious and self-aware.
But yes, the flesh goes back to the dust and is no more.
I can no longer buy VP's belief in "soul sleep." I believe souls are quite aware, I believe when Christ was resurrected out of Sheol he was the given the authority (keys) to the gates of Sheol. Not one believer, now that Christ was resurrected, would ever be again separated from their Savior. I believe when his children die, they are with him, but will not yet receive their new, resurrection body until the appointed time.
I really want you to be more specific about that, if you would, because I'm curious. I would think that this is figurative language here SInce I don't know how to touch a dead soul,... much less a live one I didn't know that the dense of touch could be applied to souls
I always thought a Body without a soul was a corpse and there were rules about dead bodies and being unclean under the law.
I was pretty sure that this is what that verse meant.
But you seem to be saying souls can be handled, at least dead ones.
How?
"He that toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man shall be unclean seven days" Numbers 19:11
"Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man that is dead [muth "dead"], and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul [nephesh "the living soul who touched the dead soul, and didn't wash his hands afterwards"] shall be cut off from Israel..." Numbers 19:13a
The uses in Revelation are figurative. These uses are about as literal and concrete as it can get.
We're dealing with Hebrew cosmology here, not Greek, and that can be as big a paradigm shift as switching from Newtonian to quantum mechanics.
"Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus and its devastation,
which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls of heroes,
but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting of dogs..."
Just as God sets forth His anthropology in the first parts of the Bible (Genesis 2:7), so Homer sets forth his anthropology within the first few lines of The Iliad. Popular notions about the body/soul dichotomy and natural immortality of the soul come from Homer and his culture, not from the Bible.
our life is not in the dust anymore we have move pass that realty
the is alive as dust
but our conscious has move on when dust dies
it is in God realm
with love and a holy kiss Roy
I know you have been grappling with this issue Roy, and I wanted to show you what a bible scholar says about what happens, after a Christian dies. N.T. Wright. I want to share it with you because, I know this is an issue you are considering, and because he says basically what you are saying. :)
We have hope Roy....and peace....we go to be with the Lord....if we belong to him.....he keeps us.
Wierwille defined salvation as "being made whole" by receiving the gift of holy spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost, which replaces the spirit that died on the day Adam and Eve sinned.
By reading meanings out from what is actually written in Genesis 2:7 and Numbers 19:13, instead of reading foreign meanings into them, we see that a human being gulping air (the literal meaning of the word "spirit" as breath) is a living soul formed of the dust of the ground, and that a human being not gulping air is a dead soul returning to the dust from which it was taken. If Adam and Eve had lost their spirits on the day they sinned, they would have dropped down dead within three minutes or so.
If what we were taught in PFAL regarding salvation was wrong, then what's right? Is there a passage in the Bible where we can learn what salvation is by reading out from what's written? Fortunately, there are many, but one of the most comprehensive is to be found in Luke 18,
"18 And a certain ruler asked him [Jesus], saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life [zoe aionios "life of age"]?
"19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
"20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
"21 And he [the certain ruler] said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
"22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he [Jesus] said unto him [the certain ruler], Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
"23 And when he [the certain ruler] heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
"24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
"25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
"26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
"27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
"28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
"29 And he [Jesus] said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
"30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time [en toi chairoi toutoi "in this opportune moment"], and in the world [aion "age"] to come life everlasting [zoe aionios "life of age"]."
Other people on other threads have examined this passage regarding the question of HOW a person receives salvation. I want to look at the things it reveals about WHAT salvation is.
We see a number of phrases; "to inherit eternal life (zoe aionios)" in verse 18, "to enter into the kingdom of God" in verses 24 and 25, "to be saved" in verse 26, and "to receive life everlasting (zoe aionios)" in verse 30; all used as synonyms. They all mean the same thing. "To inherit eternal life" is "to enter into the kingdom of God" is "to be saved".
The first thing I want to consider is "What is this zoe aionos, life of age, that Jesus talks about in Luke 18:30?
But that's going to have to wait until a later post!
You have inserted a theologian video! And he used NOT ONE verse of Scripture in his diatribe (and contradicted, IMHO, many). Hmmm, NT Wright on death and being with Jesus; what happens to a Christian when he/she dies, “we’ll be with him (a time of “rest and refreshment and delight”, probably not an “unconscious time”, he says, “hard to describe who we will be at that time”, he says and then he glosses over tons of eschatological information and states things like “the Bible doesn’t use the word “soul” that often.”
Did he even look at the 757 uses of nephesh and the 103 uses of psuche (458 alone of these which are translated “soul” in the KJV) before he made that silly statement? Then there’s the affirmation from Wright that he’s not sure how long or if it is long, but after (whatever period…) “God will do something new to the whole creation”, jumping over huge issues (but actually from there on out I agree with him). Not one verse, not one reference even. I’m supposed to trust his “scholarship”. Been there, done that, won’t do it again; and I studied with with some of the great ones (of a former generation - Robert Boling, Ted Campbell, Arthur Voobus and Dennis Pardee (OK, Dennis is still teaching at the U of C today) other guys are dead...really dead and not flyin' around "with Jesus"....yet).
Meanwhile, Mr. Integrity (aka – Steve) is going through verse by verse and working things out in his mind and for our benefit (quite well IMHO). He’s pointing how a Grecian outlook on death is quite opposed to the Hebraic (BTW Steve, if you substitute the word “being” (or even “person”) for “soul” in those “dead soul” contexts I believe you’ll be getting a better picture of the Hebraic understanding. Most good Northwest Semitic Language “scholars”, trained in Hebrew or any/all the other NWS languages “get it” when it comes to BEING a soul not HAVING one. We won’t quite get to the actual meaning without adding words, but our Western understanding of a “human being” is quite close. We just don’t use a “dead being” though a “dead human being” is very close to the Hebrew “dead soul” (“can’t touch this” (person) (a little MC Hammer please)). I also hope this helps Gen.
You have done me a service though, Geisha, and I’ll get back to this thread as quickly as I can about it. I did a quick (quick, mind you) concordant search on “with him” (in relation to Jesus) and it has opened my proverbial eyes yet again at how precise Paul is in this matter about death and dying as well as Rapture versus Resurrection (I’ll have to post it on that other thread as well).
Wierwille defined salvation as "being made whole" by receiving the gift of holy spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost, which replaces the spirit that died on the day Adam and Eve sinned.
By reading meanings out from what is actually written in Genesis 2:7 and Numbers 19:13, instead of reading foreign meanings into them, we see that a human being gulping air (the literal meaning of the word "spirit" as breath) is a living soul formed of the dust of the ground, and that a human being not gulping air is a dead soul returning to the dust from which it was taken. If Adam and Eve had lost their spirits on the day they sinned, they would have dropped down dead within three minutes or so.
If what we were taught in PFAL regarding salvation was wrong, then what's right? Is there a passage in the Bible where we can learn what salvation is by reading out from what's written? Fortunately, there are many, but one of the most comprehensive is to be found in Luke 18,
"18 And a certain ruler asked him [Jesus], saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life [zoe aionios "life of age"]?
"19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
"20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
"21 And he [the certain ruler] said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
"22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he [Jesus] said unto him [the certain ruler], Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
"23 And when he [the certain ruler] heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
"24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
"25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
"26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
"27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
"28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
"29 And he [Jesus] said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
"30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time [en toi chairoi toutoi "in this opportune moment"], and in the world [aion "age"] to come life everlasting [zoe aionios "life of age"]."
Other people on other threads have examined this passage regarding the question of HOW a person receives salvation. I want to look at the things it reveals about WHAT salvation is.
We see a number of phrases; "to inherit eternal life (zoe aionios)" in verse 18, "to enter into the kingdom of God" in verses 24 and 25, "to be saved" in verse 26, and "to receive life everlasting (zoe aionios)" in verse 30; all used as synonyms. They all mean the same thing. "To inherit eternal life" is "to enter into the kingdom of God" is "to be saved".
The first thing I want to consider is "What is this zoe aionos, life of age, that Jesus talks about in Luke 18:30?
But that's going to have to wait until a later post!
Love,
Steve
Steve,
You never did respond to me when you asked the question, “What is salvation?” (some post weeks ago). I said it was “deliverance from the lake of fire” (ultimately). Now, the semantic range of sodzo is far from only this ultimate “salvation” and indeed there are some usages of “to be made whole”, but I’ll agree with you that VP wrongly taught that this wholeness was because Adam and Eve somehow “lost” that third part of their “beingness”.
But I will disagree with you (and you’ll have to show me where I’m wrong, if you please) that “the literal meaning of the word "spirit" as breath” (or were you just meaning in Numbers 19:13?) is everywhere and spirit is never the spirit of God (in some form or another…whether it is God’s (his own) spirit or His gift to people).
Then there’s the issue of “age” and “ages” and I remember you said (not on this thread; or maybe it wasn’t even you…how bad is my memory…help) that God didn’t deal (or wasn’t focused on….can’t remember exactly how you stated it) with dispensations, but rather with “ages” and “times”. Let us settle this better before we loose sight of it. There is definitely “this age” and “the age to come” and aion means “age” as opposed to “world” (KJV and the earlier xlations really do this and it probably meant something close to our “age” today). Aion ton aionion means the “ages unto ages” (possibly indicating many more to come…Oh Boy!).
But really, Ultimate Salvation is not getting thrown into the Lake of Fire (the last bad thing that could happen).
Oh, yea and God does deal with dispensations as well as ages and times. Just don’t want to loose sight of that one. Please respond when you can.
NT Wright too? My, the list of those who you hold in low regard is long.....I am really starting to lose track??
Now, step back for a moment and think....consider why I might post that particular clip.....give it some time...it will sink in. Was my purpose to "prove" something? Argue incessantly over words? Or to offer some comfort?
Got it yet?
Geisha
BTW...you are seriously asking about one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholar's study habits?
You never did respond to me when you asked the question, “What is salvation?” (some post weeks ago). I said it was “deliverance from the lake of fire” (ultimately). Now, the semantic range of sodzo is far from only this ultimate “salvation” and indeed there are some usages of “to be made whole”, but I’ll agree with you that VP wrongly taught that this wholeness was because Adam and Eve somehow “lost” that third part of their “beingness”.
I'm sorry I didn't respond to your observation about ultimate salvation being deliverance from the lake of fire. To tell the truth, I think I've just recently got a handle on what "to be saved" means in Romans 10:9.
But I will disagree with you (and youll have to show me where Im wrong, if you please) that the literal meaning of the word "spirit" as breath (or were you just meaning in Numbers 19:13?) is everywhere and spirit is never the spirit of God (in some form or another…whether it is Gods (his own) spirit or His gift to people).
My parenthesis "the literal meaning of the word 'spirit' as breath" was in reference to the immediately preceding phrase "gulping air". I DID consider using a submarine figure for breathing... "sucking gas"... but I thought that might be just a little too far out
I think the figurative meaning of "spirit" is "life as evidenced by the power to move". As I wrote in regard to Genesis 1:2, I think its use there means that God's life as evidenced by His power to move interacts with and informs His creation. I don't know much about ancient Hebrew thinking, but I know that the idea of a supreme god interacting directly with the cosmos would have been scandalous to the Greeks. I believe, if I remember right, that the Spirit of God, the Wisdom of God, the Word of God, the Love of God, etc., were all regarded as "emanations"? I think the meaning of "Spirit of God" is conditioned by the particular context, and we'll be looking at a few of those contexts shortly.
Then theres the issue of age and ages and I remember you said (not on this thread; or maybe it wasnt even you…how bad is my memory…help) that God didnt deal (or wasnt focused on….cant remember exactly how you stated it) with dispensations, but rather with ages and times. Let us settle this better before we loose sight of it. There is definitely this age and the age to come and aion means age as opposed to world (KJV and the earlier xlations really do this and it probably meant something close to our age today). Aion ton aionion means the ages unto ages (possibly indicating many more to come…Oh Boy!).
We'll start on "ages" before the night is over, if God's willin' and the creeks don't rise!
But really, Ultimate Salvation is not getting thrown into the Lake of Fire (the last bad thing that could happen).
I agree with you that getting thrown into the lake of fire is NOT ultimate salvation
Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
A life stye you live is confessing you make until death
a spirit seed it planted that will be born at your death
how could Jesus say this
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
But really, Ultimate Salvation is not getting thrown into the Lake of Fire (the last bad thing that could happen).
Or....one could look at ultimate salvation as getting to spend an eternity with God in the presence of His glory.....it is how I look at it anyway.....
Alice was in the middle of a discussion with Humpty Dumpty (Through the Looking Glass, chapter 6)
"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,'" Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously "of course you don't---till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,'" Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean---neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master---that's all."
More later...
Love,
Steve
I felt this would be a good time to resurrect this post. If I remember my Annotated Alice (which I gave away to the logic ma'arm at the school where I taught), Dodgson wrote this bit after reviewing an argument between two Victorian theologians regarding what constitutes the glory of God!
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Hebrews 4:12 .. . . to whom is it written? It was written to the Jews who had intellectually agreed to the gospel, the facts about Jesus, the authority and power of the 1st century church, but were no
geisha779
Hey Gen-2 I am curious what people think strong meat really is? :) Perhaps it is. . . to the measure of the stature of the fullness in Christ. . . . and not some super-duper special x-ray ability,
cman
Excuse me there Bob, but your post has a narrow view. I will not use the word you used to describe a perspective. Other words come to mind. But, you are, as all, entitled to your own works.
Sunesis
Sorry, OT. Steve, thank you for inadvertently answering a question I had. You answered them with the Ezekiel verses :)
I know, after Armeggedon, when Christ returns and judges the nations (the gentiles) and separates out the ones to enter into the Millenium (those who helped the Jew by their works) and enter into the land, and the ones who don't get to enter, I had wondered - where was Israel and the followers of Messiah, because I knew most of them had died and been martyred by this time - although there obviously was a remnant who did meet him.
The verse answers it - God brings them to life to enter into the land. The first resurrection of the just. What I also find fascinating is they are flesh and bone, but no blood. Why? because they are now "powered" or energized by Spirt - the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and took him from the grave under the earth through the heavens to the Heavenlies.
I believe, when Christ appeared to the Apostles after his resurrection and said, to Thomas I believe, "touch me, handle me, a spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see me." He did not have blood. His life force so to speak - was now spirit. I also think he was showing them what their new eternal bodies would look like. Just a thought.
I may be wrong - but those verses in Ezekiel did clear something up for me. Thanks!
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Steve Lortz
You're welcome, Sunesis! No need to be sorry. Even though Ezekiel is in the set of books we call the "Old Testament", the actual Old Covenant itself is Deuteronomy 5-28, summed up in Deuteronomy 29:1, "These are the words of the covenant [Deuteronomy 5-28], which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb."
I think the literal meaning of "spirit" in what we call the Old Testament is "air in motion" and the figurative meaning is "life as evidenced by the power to move". By the first century, "spirit" took on a multi-layered extension of meanings, especially among Paul's readers. It'll be fun when we get there. But I think we need to look at "nephesh" or OT "soul" before jumping forward to the first century.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
We're looking at Genesis 2:7 to see how Wierwille's definition of salvation lines up with what's actually written in the Word. We've seen that God formed man of the dust of the ground, got his respiration going, and man became a living soul.
Did the writers of the Bible believe souls to be immortal? Ezekiel 18:4b says, "...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Again in Ezekiel 18:20a, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die..."
The Hebrew word translated "soul" in Genesis 2:7 is nephesh. The word translated "living" is chai. When God breathed into man's nostrils the breath (neshamah) of life (chaiyim), man became a nephesh chai, a living soul. But there are places where the scriptures also use the phrase nephesh muth, "DEAD soul".
Leviticus 21:11a "Neither shall he [the high priest] go in to any dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"]..."
Numbers 6:6 "All the days that he [a person who vowed the vow of a Nazarite] separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"]."
The uses in Numbers 19 are instructive,
"11 He that toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man shall be unclean seven days."
"13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man that is dead [muth "dead"], and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord, and that soul [nephesh "soul"] shall be cut off from Israel..."
"16 And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"], or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days."
Not only do we see from these verses that souls are not immortal, we also see that they are not immaterial. Dead souls can be TOUCHED!
While a person is breathing, he is a living soul. When he gives up the spirit, that is to say, when that person stops breathing, what's left is a dead soul. What we would call a "corpse", the Bible calls a "dead soul".
Genesis 2:7 indicates that a living man is a two part being, with a dust component and a breath or spirit (air in motion) component. This two part being is called a living soul. When a soul stops breathing, it becomes a one part being called a dead soul.
Wierwille taught that Adam's and Eve's spirits died on the very day that they sinned. That cannot have been the case. If their spirits had died, they would have stopped breathing, and their souls would have dropped down dead, then and there.
Wierwille taught that salvation consists of being made whole by receiving the gift of holy spirit that was first poured out on the day of Pentecost. If Adam's and Eve's spirits didn't die, and the gift of holy spirit is not a replacement for those spirits, then what is it?
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
What does a dead soul know?
We've seen from Genesis 3:19b, Genesis 18:27 and Psalm 103:14 that the Bible associates identity with the dust component. This is confirmed in Ezekiel 37:12-14,
"12b ...Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and cause YOU to come up out of your graves..."
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought YOU up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit in YOU, and ye shall live..." (emphasis added)
Since the Bible associates identity with the dust component, and since a dust component that doesn't breathe dies (becomes a dead soul), what CAN a dead soul know?
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10,
"4 For him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgetten [they no longer remember anything].
"6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun..."
"10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest."
Psalm 6:4&5,
"4 Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
"5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave, who shall give thee thanks?"
Psalm 30:9,
"9 What profit is there in my blood, when I shall go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee" Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psalm 88:11&12,
"11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?
"12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Psalm 115:17,
"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Psalm 146:2-4,
"2 While I live I will praise the Lord: I will sing my praises unto my God while I have any being.
"3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
"4 His breath [ruach "air in motion"] goeth forth, HE returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (emphasis added)
When a soul dies, it stops breathing. Its spirit component leaves, and just blows about somewhere else. The dust component, the part that recognizes "me" as "me", returns to the earth from which it was formed. In that very day, its thoughts perish.
Because a soul's literal experience of death is the same as its literal experience of a dreamless sleep, the Bible often uses sleep as a metaphor for death.
Psalm 13:3,
"3 Consider and hear me O lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
Since the Bible also refers to death as a soul returning to its dust, Daniel can combine both these metaphors,
Daniel 12:2
"2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..."
There are numerous places in the books of Kings and Chronicles where the phrase "slept with his fathers" is used to indicate that various people have died. The gospel of John illustrates that the sleep/death metaphor was common, and sometimes caused confusion, even in New Testament times, as evidenced in John 11,
"11 These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them [his disciples], Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may wake him out of sleep.
"12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
"13 Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought he had spoken of taking rest in sleep.
"14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
There is no consciousness in death: the dead know not anything, there is no reward, no memory, no love, no hatred, no envy, no portion, no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, no remembrance, no thanks, no profit, no praise, no declaration of truth, nor of lovingkindness, nor of faithfulness, no knowing of wonders, nor of righteousness, no light, no sound: only forgetfulness, darkness, silence and destruction.
If this was all that Israel had to look forward to, then it's no wonder they said, "Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts" in Ezekiel 37:1-14. And that makes it all the more wonderful that God sets forth the promise of resurrection in this passage!
Love,
Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve
what does a rock know?
what does dust know?
does a dead soul know anything?
our life is not in the dust anymore we have move pass that realty
the is alive as dust
but our conscious has move on when dust dies
it is in God realm
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
Thank you, Roy.
The good news is: God has raised Jesus out from among the dead!
The bad news is: dead people really are dead :-(
with love and a holy kiss Steve
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cman
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed
And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed
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Gen-2
I really want you to be more specific about that, if you would, because I'm curious. I would think that this is figurative language here Since I don't know how to touch a dead soul,... much less a live one. I didn't know that the sense of touch could be applied to souls
I always thought a Body without a soul was a corpse and there were rules about dead bodies and being unclean under the law.
I was pretty sure that this is what that verse meant.
But you seem to be saying souls can be handled, at least dead ones.
How?
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Sunesis
Steve, do a word study on Shoel or gravedom. yes, the flesh dies. But, the soul goes down to the grave.
You have lots of dead souls in Revelation asking for vengence, and being told they must wait a bit longer until their brothers have also been martyred.
When Jesus used the parable of Lazarus, if they were truly, dead, I doubt he would have been talking about what Lazarus and the rich man were going through.
If you study the souls in the grave/sheol/hell, you will note that they are conscious and self-aware.
But yes, the flesh goes back to the dust and is no more.
I can no longer buy VP's belief in "soul sleep." I believe souls are quite aware, I believe when Christ was resurrected out of Sheol he was the given the authority (keys) to the gates of Sheol. Not one believer, now that Christ was resurrected, would ever be again separated from their Savior. I believe when his children die, they are with him, but will not yet receive their new, resurrection body until the appointed time.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
What dust but remains of something?
can you tough dust yes you can?
the bible saids there no conscious in the body or soul
so where it go?
and another realm in God's realm
it moves to spirit side
to live again or die when soul and body dyes
Thanks you Steve
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
"He that toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man shall be unclean seven days" Numbers 19:11
"Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth "dead soul"] of any man that is dead [muth "dead"], and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul [nephesh "the living soul who touched the dead soul, and didn't wash his hands afterwards"] shall be cut off from Israel..." Numbers 19:13a
The uses in Revelation are figurative. These uses are about as literal and concrete as it can get.
We're dealing with Hebrew cosmology here, not Greek, and that can be as big a paradigm shift as switching from Newtonian to quantum mechanics.
"Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus and its devastation,
which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls of heroes,
but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting of dogs..."
Just as God sets forth His anthropology in the first parts of the Bible (Genesis 2:7), so Homer sets forth his anthropology within the first few lines of The Iliad. Popular notions about the body/soul dichotomy and natural immortality of the soul come from Homer and his culture, not from the Bible.
Love,
Steve
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cman
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
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geisha779
I know you have been grappling with this issue Roy, and I wanted to show you what a bible scholar says about what happens, after a Christian dies. N.T. Wright. I want to share it with you because, I know this is an issue you are considering, and because he says basically what you are saying. :)
We have hope Roy....and peace....we go to be with the Lord....if we belong to him.....he keeps us.
O death where is thy sting?
Well said Sunesis.
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year2027
God first
thanks geisha
I am enjoying
why was I do afraid of death string?
yes I ask myself
I love you thanks
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille defined salvation as "being made whole" by receiving the gift of holy spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost, which replaces the spirit that died on the day Adam and Eve sinned.
By reading meanings out from what is actually written in Genesis 2:7 and Numbers 19:13, instead of reading foreign meanings into them, we see that a human being gulping air (the literal meaning of the word "spirit" as breath) is a living soul formed of the dust of the ground, and that a human being not gulping air is a dead soul returning to the dust from which it was taken. If Adam and Eve had lost their spirits on the day they sinned, they would have dropped down dead within three minutes or so.
If what we were taught in PFAL regarding salvation was wrong, then what's right? Is there a passage in the Bible where we can learn what salvation is by reading out from what's written? Fortunately, there are many, but one of the most comprehensive is to be found in Luke 18,
"18 And a certain ruler asked him [Jesus], saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life [zoe aionios "life of age"]?
"19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
"20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
"21 And he [the certain ruler] said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
"22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he [Jesus] said unto him [the certain ruler], Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
"23 And when he [the certain ruler] heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
"24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
"25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
"26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
"27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
"28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
"29 And he [Jesus] said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
"30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time [en toi chairoi toutoi "in this opportune moment"], and in the world [aion "age"] to come life everlasting [zoe aionios "life of age"]."
Other people on other threads have examined this passage regarding the question of HOW a person receives salvation. I want to look at the things it reveals about WHAT salvation is.
We see a number of phrases; "to inherit eternal life (zoe aionios)" in verse 18, "to enter into the kingdom of God" in verses 24 and 25, "to be saved" in verse 26, and "to receive life everlasting (zoe aionios)" in verse 30; all used as synonyms. They all mean the same thing. "To inherit eternal life" is "to enter into the kingdom of God" is "to be saved".
The first thing I want to consider is "What is this zoe aionos, life of age, that Jesus talks about in Luke 18:30?
But that's going to have to wait until a later post!
Love,
Steve
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roberterasmus
OMG, Geisha,
You have inserted a theologian video! And he used NOT ONE verse of Scripture in his diatribe (and contradicted, IMHO, many). Hmmm, NT Wright on death and being with Jesus; what happens to a Christian when he/she dies, “we’ll be with him (a time of “rest and refreshment and delight”, probably not an “unconscious time”, he says, “hard to describe who we will be at that time”, he says and then he glosses over tons of eschatological information and states things like “the Bible doesn’t use the word “soul” that often.”
Did he even look at the 757 uses of nephesh and the 103 uses of psuche (458 alone of these which are translated “soul” in the KJV) before he made that silly statement? Then there’s the affirmation from Wright that he’s not sure how long or if it is long, but after (whatever period…) “God will do something new to the whole creation”, jumping over huge issues (but actually from there on out I agree with him). Not one verse, not one reference even. I’m supposed to trust his “scholarship”. Been there, done that, won’t do it again; and I studied with with some of the great ones (of a former generation - Robert Boling, Ted Campbell, Arthur Voobus and Dennis Pardee (OK, Dennis is still teaching at the U of C today) other guys are dead...really dead and not flyin' around "with Jesus"....yet).
Meanwhile, Mr. Integrity (aka – Steve) is going through verse by verse and working things out in his mind and for our benefit (quite well IMHO). He’s pointing how a Grecian outlook on death is quite opposed to the Hebraic (BTW Steve, if you substitute the word “being” (or even “person”) for “soul” in those “dead soul” contexts I believe you’ll be getting a better picture of the Hebraic understanding. Most good Northwest Semitic Language “scholars”, trained in Hebrew or any/all the other NWS languages “get it” when it comes to BEING a soul not HAVING one. We won’t quite get to the actual meaning without adding words, but our Western understanding of a “human being” is quite close. We just don’t use a “dead being” though a “dead human being” is very close to the Hebrew “dead soul” (“can’t touch this” (person) (a little MC Hammer please)). I also hope this helps Gen.
You have done me a service though, Geisha, and I’ll get back to this thread as quickly as I can about it. I did a quick (quick, mind you) concordant search on “with him” (in relation to Jesus) and it has opened my proverbial eyes yet again at how precise Paul is in this matter about death and dying as well as Rapture versus Resurrection (I’ll have to post it on that other thread as well).
RE
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roberterasmus
Steve,
You never did respond to me when you asked the question, “What is salvation?” (some post weeks ago). I said it was “deliverance from the lake of fire” (ultimately). Now, the semantic range of sodzo is far from only this ultimate “salvation” and indeed there are some usages of “to be made whole”, but I’ll agree with you that VP wrongly taught that this wholeness was because Adam and Eve somehow “lost” that third part of their “beingness”.
But I will disagree with you (and you’ll have to show me where I’m wrong, if you please) that “the literal meaning of the word "spirit" as breath” (or were you just meaning in Numbers 19:13?) is everywhere and spirit is never the spirit of God (in some form or another…whether it is God’s (his own) spirit or His gift to people).
Then there’s the issue of “age” and “ages” and I remember you said (not on this thread; or maybe it wasn’t even you…how bad is my memory…help) that God didn’t deal (or wasn’t focused on….can’t remember exactly how you stated it) with dispensations, but rather with “ages” and “times”. Let us settle this better before we loose sight of it. There is definitely “this age” and “the age to come” and aion means “age” as opposed to “world” (KJV and the earlier xlations really do this and it probably meant something close to our “age” today). Aion ton aionion means the “ages unto ages” (possibly indicating many more to come…Oh Boy!).
But really, Ultimate Salvation is not getting thrown into the Lake of Fire (the last bad thing that could happen).
Oh, yea and God does deal with dispensations as well as ages and times. Just don’t want to loose sight of that one. Please respond when you can.
RE
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year2027
God first
thanks roberterasmus
trow away your greek and Hebrew Dictionary for now there holding you down
listin to Geisha
NT Wright, Robert Boling, Ted Campbell, Arthur Voobus and Dennis Pardee are just fools
and I am too
that had something that more than words
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Robert,
NT Wright too? My, the list of those who you hold in low regard is long.....I am really starting to lose track??
Now, step back for a moment and think....consider why I might post that particular clip.....give it some time...it will sink in. Was my purpose to "prove" something? Argue incessantly over words? Or to offer some comfort?
Got it yet?
Geisha
BTW...you are seriously asking about one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholar's study habits?
LOL too funny.
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Steve Lortz
I'm sorry I didn't respond to your observation about ultimate salvation being deliverance from the lake of fire. To tell the truth, I think I've just recently got a handle on what "to be saved" means in Romans 10:9.
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Steve Lortz
My parenthesis "the literal meaning of the word 'spirit' as breath" was in reference to the immediately preceding phrase "gulping air". I DID consider using a submarine figure for breathing... "sucking gas"... but I thought that might be just a little too far out
I think the figurative meaning of "spirit" is "life as evidenced by the power to move". As I wrote in regard to Genesis 1:2, I think its use there means that God's life as evidenced by His power to move interacts with and informs His creation. I don't know much about ancient Hebrew thinking, but I know that the idea of a supreme god interacting directly with the cosmos would have been scandalous to the Greeks. I believe, if I remember right, that the Spirit of God, the Wisdom of God, the Word of God, the Love of God, etc., were all regarded as "emanations"? I think the meaning of "Spirit of God" is conditioned by the particular context, and we'll be looking at a few of those contexts shortly.
We'll start on "ages" before the night is over, if God's willin' and the creeks don't rise!
I agree with you that getting thrown into the lake of fire is NOT ultimate salvation
Love,
Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
A life stye you live is confessing you make until death
a spirit seed it planted that will be born at your death
how could Jesus say this
because after the last day it will be the end
the last day of our life
and there a end of the world too
when I die I will at my last days
if I fought well I will die well
there always more to any picture
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Or....one could look at ultimate salvation as getting to spend an eternity with God in the presence of His glory.....it is how I look at it anyway.....
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Steve Lortz
I felt this would be a good time to resurrect this post. If I remember my Annotated Alice (which I gave away to the logic ma'arm at the school where I taught), Dodgson wrote this bit after reviewing an argument between two Victorian theologians regarding what constitutes the glory of God!
Love,
Steve
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