Yeah.. but that was a big selling point for pfal. If I remember correctly.. the mogmeister ranting on in a self-described dialogue with whoever.. "why don't ya grow a BACKBONE and stand up for da gweatness of da wordogawd.."
I wonder how much substance there really was in all of this..
Leafy, no evidence according to Psalm 22. Seems all that biblical research failed to recognize that was what Jesus was quoting. It was the Lord's final attempt, (because of his Love for Israel), to say, HELLO!!!, look at me, look at what is going on here, anything look familiar???!!! I AM your Promised Messiah.
I remember hearing that in my first class and wondering why the way that verse was translated would help sell bibles. I thought it made no sense, but soon pushed it into the back of mind with all the other common sense that I ignored for 25 years.
Didn't VP recant on this teaching near the end of his life? I heard it was when they were doing the Aramaic Concordance it became evident that "Eli, Eli,...etc." was a question or something like that and that VP said it should be rendered, "Why was I spared?" Now, I'm just going off memory...I could have this completely wrong, but supposidely he said that at (yet another) life PFAL class in Gunnison shortly before the end of his life.
Wow. This verse, the way I was taught it was "correctly translated", has stuck with me for years. I heard some other preacher a few years ago give a plausable meaning to this verse. He said that God could not look at Jesus at that moment because Jesus had taken on all the sin of the world. That is why Jesus asked God why did He forsake him. I don't know, that seems rather plausable to me!
if the psalms were originally written to be sung by those who are suffering and dying...it could be that jesus was actually singing the words of the psalm that expressed what he was feeling in those moments before his death.
that one feels it was somehow wrong or invalid thing for Jesus to say (or feel or think) may be a sign of their own inability to touch, hold and handle the very real and valid feelings we experience in the face of suffering.
as if a tribe is in the deepest kinds of trouble when their eldest are the first to run from fire and shadows.
Me thinks you guys give to much literal attention to that which we know very little about. I mean a council of bishops deciding what is the "Word of God". So we have men deciding what is God's word. They may or not have been hung over, they may or not have an agenda we don't know. The only thing we do know is that we don't know. The "Synod of Hippo" decided about 390 these were canonical books. That's all we know.
that one feels it was somehow wrong or invalid thing for Jesus to say (or feel or think) may be a sign of their own inability to touch, hold and handle the very real and valid feelings we experience in the face of suffering.
Yeah, I think Weirwille may have had a problem with Jesus "dissing" God at that moment. But what you said is very true. He WAS flesh and blood, and suffered more than any man in history, I would think. My God, I truly wouldn't want to bear for a second, the pain he was going through. Not for an instant.
here's where victor paul wierwille's hard heart showed again because he couldn't tolerate lamentations any more than he could tolerate charity or anything else that would take the focus and the giving of glory and money off of him and the way international, which is also why he couldn't have anybody looking into the old testament much, or if anybody did, they had to look at it with his "corrections". otherwise anybody would have caught onto his games so quick there would never have been much to the way international except a pathetic hard-hearted s.o.b. that went around drugging and raping young women that may or may not have even been legal adults, and he gave himself permission in his own head to do such things by raping the bible first. so if people want to believe his raped version of the bible, well then i guess people can believe whatever they want to believe, but i can also wonder if they want to follow their leader in ALL his ways and that's why they insist that he must have been right. yeah, i'm kind of on one concerning this bu++hole and his "ministry" this morning.
but anyway, lamentations are just plain a normal part of the human struggle with life and death, and like sirguessalot said these particular lamentations were uttered long before jesus uttered them, and jesus knew the words and being that jesus was of the jewish persuasion, i think, he knew the prayers to pray, or the songs to sing, when in deep trouble or deep sorrow or deep doo doo or whatever. for crying out loud, jesus was being murdered! i mean, this wasn't a gunshot to the head type of murder, either. has anybody studied crucifixion? of course, not anybody in the way international because that was taboo to the way international. but crucifixion is not by any means a "simple" or even a "hard" way to die, or even just "cruel", but even saying "unholy" doesn't describe it well enough i think. ya think maybe jesus felt like that maybe god had perhaps just a little bit ripped him off and left him to die alone? maybe just for a minute? that doesn't make jesus bad or weak, and it doesn't make the feeling "true", and doesn't mean that god actually forsook jesus. it means that jesus was feeling some real stuff and it was messing with him something bad. pain and dying tends to do this to people's heads and you can't tell what people will say in such times.
so what did it matter to victor paul wierwille that he had to switch it all up like that? what was his game about this? like i said, i think it was just another way for him to keep people from seeing and feeling anything he didn't want them to see or feel, especially if it made people see or feel any shred of humanity one to another.
CES (STFI) did a good job of debunking docvic's "interpretation" of *Eli, Eli . . . * citing Psalm 22.
They did NOT (however) address the East/West geographic split for bible sales that docvic claimed in pfal.
It's been a coupla years since I went to any of the CES sites, and I see they have a lot on video now.
Here's John S. doing the teaching on Eli, Eli. They used to have this in print. Now it's on video. Go figure.
Thanks for this video. I had no idea about Psalms 22. Obviously others (like kimberly) did. The one thing I would have to disagree with this teaching is that John S. said that Jesus wasn't afraid of the crucifixtion. I'm not so sure about that. Nor do I think it would be wrong to be afraid. It doesn't mean he was weak, for crying out loud. To me it means you are more brave than ever.
And I know what you mean about CES having everything on video now. I don't go to their site a lot anymore, but when I do, I used to like to look up something real quick that they would have in print. Now that they have almost everyting in video, it's a little annoying. I don't have the patience to sit through a whole video to get to the part I wan't to see.
I listened to that clip from CES. When Mr. S begins his exegesis he starts out by making the same assumptions as most of the splinter groups and we in TWI did. . . . that this verse has been misunderstood and wrongly taught. I don't believe that is the case and I don't make that initial leap with him. It is not a given as is implied.
God does not forsake sinners. . . . He made a way for sinners to be reconciled to Him. What happened on the cross was that way was being made.
Jesus also bore for us the consequence of the sin's of the world. What is the consequence of sin? Alienation from God is a result of sin. What does Roman's 1 say 3 times? Gave them up. . . . gave them up. . . . gave them up.
If, in that time, when Jesus was bearing the sins of the world He didn't also bear the consequences of those sins. . . it is incomplete and it is not finished.
As far as Jesus teaching from the cross. . . . first someone, somewhere, is going to have to start admitting that no mere mortal man could endure the wrath of God and hold twig at the same time. Who was there? 3 Mary's, John, the TWO crucified with Him . . . maybe a few guards. . . . but, think about the first ones He appeared to in His resurrected body? He appeared to His disciples.
That clip basically said nothing. . .. yet, to my ears it was still a basic denial of the gospel. How do they do that?
For me, one of the scariest things I realized about God post TWI is that sometimes God does allow us to continue in gross error. . . . He leaves us right where we are determined to be.. . . .
and it looks like he's learned from j.l. after all.. it isn't a *teaching*.. its a mind numbing EPISTLE.. the *little* article is way, way, way too long.. by the time one has listened or even just read it through, one is practically numbed enough to believe almost anything..
why can't he just get to the friggin point?
at least he didn't spin yarns about arguing with bible clearing house officials, and make the unsubstantiated claim (at least to the present in my opinion) of how the *cowards* won't sell us eastern versions of bibles or something.. unless I missed it when I skipped a few pages while drooling on the keyboard..
and it looks like he's learned from j.l. after all.. it isn't a *teaching*.. its a mind numbing EPISTLE.. the *little* article is way, way, way too long.. by the time one has listened or even just read it through, one is practically numbed enough to believe almost anything..
why can't he just get to the friggin point?
at least he didn't spin yarns about arguing with bible clearing house officials, and make the unsubstantiated claim (at least to the present in my opinion) of how the *cowards* won't sell us eastern versions of bibles or something.. unless I missed it when I skipped a few pages while drooling on the keyboard..
Sorry - I'm breaking my own rule about the 2 word reply, but this was LOL funny. Why say it in 5 minutes if you can stretch it to 30. And doncha just love the scripted little intro that starts every "teaching"? The attempts to make is sound like it's not being read, when it is so obviously being read.
TWI's Aramaic Interlinear translators fought Cummins over the reading of Mat 27:46, knowing it reads "forsaken/ deserted." The Aramaic lexicons they use have "forsaken." The Aramaic word also appears in Mat 26:56 (the same Gospel) translated correctly as the disciples "deserted" Him and fled. Their inconsistency in translating shows how "spare" was false, but included to please VP & Co.
The TWI Aramaic interlinear is very orthodox Christian compared to TWI. In it,
- Thomas says "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28)
- Baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19)
- Jesus says, "before Abe, I was" (John 8:58)
- John 1:18 reads "the only begotten God"
- the Spirit is "he" (John 16:13)
- Peter would glorify God by his death (John 21:18)
- the Spirit of His Son cries Abba (Gal 4:6)
You can find on article on this in the research section of www.abouttheway.org
By quoting Psalm 22:1, Jesus was telling his listeners to read the whole Psalm. Perhaps he even quoted more of it. It's an amazing prophecy of the crucifixion.
There are many details in it which are exactly what occurred in crucifixion... my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth, my strength is dried up, they pierced my hands and feet, he's with the transgressors (men crucified with Him), but with the rich in death (Joseph's fancy tomb), people ridicule him, etc. Any Jew would think that all that pain was indeed proof that God had abandoned Him- because why would a present God let an innocent man go through that?
We always read this Psalm at the end of worship on Maundy Thursday (the night before Good Friday). People who listened to Him would understand that His crucifixion was at that very moment fulfilling Psalm 22.
In Lamsa's Translation of Matthew it says, "My, God, My God, for this was I kept"
www.lamsabible.com
"Dr. Lamsa was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. He was a strong advocate of one of that Church's beliefs: Pedangta primacy (a form of Aramaic primacy). His hypothesis was that for the New Testament, the Aramaic Pedangta was the original text, and the Greek version was translated from it. In support of this, he noted that Aramaic was the language of Jesus, His Disciples and the earliest Christians, including the authors of the Bible" (quoted from Home Page of Lamsa)
Know that I am not trying to support VP's teaching but more of WHERE he got it from...I don't know anything much about Lamsa...but from his website he appears to be a scholar of the bible and of the early language and he was Eastern, not Western. And this is what VP said, if I recollect it correctly. I, however, don't know a thing about Eastern vs Western...
Now the thing about "selling more bibles" seems a little out there for me...that doesn't seem to be right at all.
I also understand the translation of "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" and how that has been supported from the bible. And most of the "western" world believes this translation....
I've not done the research so I can't comment on what which would be the correct one...Eastern or Western
It would be interesting though, I think, to look into it if you are a researcher.
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waysider
As if one isolated verse could have such a huge impact on worldwide sales.
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Ham
Yeah.. but that was a big selling point for pfal. If I remember correctly.. the mogmeister ranting on in a self-described dialogue with whoever.. "why don't ya grow a BACKBONE and stand up for da gweatness of da wordogawd.."
I wonder how much substance there really was in all of this..
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leafytwiglet
It was one of the big selling points of TWI
and I too remember him going on about it.
HE used it as a means of giving some kind of credibility to his work.
Was it true or just another lie.
Edited to say I meant it was one of the ways he used to give himself more credibility not really a selling point.
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Ham
True.. but it gave apparent credibility to him and his plagiarized product..
there were other anecdotes.. I don't mind if people comment on those as well..
the famed "meeting(?)" between herr vicster and "the greatest theologian in all europe" ascribed to in session 11..
when did it occur? Barth died in 1968.. when did the vicster take a whirlwind tour of europe?
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kimberly
Leafy, no evidence according to Psalm 22. Seems all that biblical research failed to recognize that was what Jesus was quoting. It was the Lord's final attempt, (because of his Love for Israel), to say, HELLO!!!, look at me, look at what is going on here, anything look familiar???!!! I AM your Promised Messiah.
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Oakspear
I remember hearing that in my first class and wondering why the way that verse was translated would help sell bibles. I thought it made no sense, but soon pushed it into the back of mind with all the other common sense that I ignored for 25 years.
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Broken Arrow
Didn't VP recant on this teaching near the end of his life? I heard it was when they were doing the Aramaic Concordance it became evident that "Eli, Eli,...etc." was a question or something like that and that VP said it should be rendered, "Why was I spared?" Now, I'm just going off memory...I could have this completely wrong, but supposidely he said that at (yet another) life PFAL class in Gunnison shortly before the end of his life.
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RottieGrrrl
Wow. This verse, the way I was taught it was "correctly translated", has stuck with me for years. I heard some other preacher a few years ago give a plausable meaning to this verse. He said that God could not look at Jesus at that moment because Jesus had taken on all the sin of the world. That is why Jesus asked God why did He forsake him. I don't know, that seems rather plausable to me!
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sirguessalot
if the psalms were originally written to be sung by those who are suffering and dying...it could be that jesus was actually singing the words of the psalm that expressed what he was feeling in those moments before his death.
that one feels it was somehow wrong or invalid thing for Jesus to say (or feel or think) may be a sign of their own inability to touch, hold and handle the very real and valid feelings we experience in the face of suffering.
as if a tribe is in the deepest kinds of trouble when their eldest are the first to run from fire and shadows.
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bulwinkl
Me thinks you guys give to much literal attention to that which we know very little about. I mean a council of bishops deciding what is the "Word of God". So we have men deciding what is God's word. They may or not have been hung over, they may or not have an agenda we don't know. The only thing we do know is that we don't know. The "Synod of Hippo" decided about 390 these were canonical books. That's all we know.
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah, I think Weirwille may have had a problem with Jesus "dissing" God at that moment. But what you said is very true. He WAS flesh and blood, and suffered more than any man in history, I would think. My God, I truly wouldn't want to bear for a second, the pain he was going through. Not for an instant.
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Ham
One place I found with a web search:
http://www.picturesofsilver.com/abundantly/abundantly02-01.htm
The only "sources" quoted were.. the lamsa bible, and the pfal book..
based on what? What versions? Is there one bit of credibility to this claim?
I found three clones of this web page.. and all they have is lamsa and pfal..
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RottieGrrrl
I went to that link. Those are some real old-time wayfers. You should contact them and ask them what their sources are.
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Ham
Hmm. That's a thought..
but the "other translations" explanation seems to read "line by line, word by word" from the old orange book..
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dmiller
CES (STFI) did a good job of debunking docvic's "interpretation" of *Eli, Eli . . . * citing Psalm 22.
They did NOT (however) address the East/West geographic split for bible sales that docvic claimed in pfal.
It's been a coupla years since I went to any of the CES sites, and I see they have a lot on video now.
Here's John S. doing the teaching on Eli, Eli. They used to have this in print. Now it's on video. Go figure.
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
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brainfixed
here's where victor paul wierwille's hard heart showed again because he couldn't tolerate lamentations any more than he could tolerate charity or anything else that would take the focus and the giving of glory and money off of him and the way international, which is also why he couldn't have anybody looking into the old testament much, or if anybody did, they had to look at it with his "corrections". otherwise anybody would have caught onto his games so quick there would never have been much to the way international except a pathetic hard-hearted s.o.b. that went around drugging and raping young women that may or may not have even been legal adults, and he gave himself permission in his own head to do such things by raping the bible first. so if people want to believe his raped version of the bible, well then i guess people can believe whatever they want to believe, but i can also wonder if they want to follow their leader in ALL his ways and that's why they insist that he must have been right. yeah, i'm kind of on one concerning this bu++hole and his "ministry" this morning.
but anyway, lamentations are just plain a normal part of the human struggle with life and death, and like sirguessalot said these particular lamentations were uttered long before jesus uttered them, and jesus knew the words and being that jesus was of the jewish persuasion, i think, he knew the prayers to pray, or the songs to sing, when in deep trouble or deep sorrow or deep doo doo or whatever. for crying out loud, jesus was being murdered! i mean, this wasn't a gunshot to the head type of murder, either. has anybody studied crucifixion? of course, not anybody in the way international because that was taboo to the way international. but crucifixion is not by any means a "simple" or even a "hard" way to die, or even just "cruel", but even saying "unholy" doesn't describe it well enough i think. ya think maybe jesus felt like that maybe god had perhaps just a little bit ripped him off and left him to die alone? maybe just for a minute? that doesn't make jesus bad or weak, and it doesn't make the feeling "true", and doesn't mean that god actually forsook jesus. it means that jesus was feeling some real stuff and it was messing with him something bad. pain and dying tends to do this to people's heads and you can't tell what people will say in such times.
so what did it matter to victor paul wierwille that he had to switch it all up like that? what was his game about this? like i said, i think it was just another way for him to keep people from seeing and feeling anything he didn't want them to see or feel, especially if it made people see or feel any shred of humanity one to another.
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RottieGrrrl
Thanks for this video. I had no idea about Psalms 22. Obviously others (like kimberly) did. The one thing I would have to disagree with this teaching is that John S. said that Jesus wasn't afraid of the crucifixtion. I'm not so sure about that. Nor do I think it would be wrong to be afraid. It doesn't mean he was weak, for crying out loud. To me it means you are more brave than ever.
And I know what you mean about CES having everything on video now. I don't go to their site a lot anymore, but when I do, I used to like to look up something real quick that they would have in print. Now that they have almost everyting in video, it's a little annoying. I don't have the patience to sit through a whole video to get to the part I wan't to see.
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geisha779
I listened to that clip from CES. When Mr. S begins his exegesis he starts out by making the same assumptions as most of the splinter groups and we in TWI did. . . . that this verse has been misunderstood and wrongly taught. I don't believe that is the case and I don't make that initial leap with him. It is not a given as is implied.
God does not forsake sinners. . . . He made a way for sinners to be reconciled to Him. What happened on the cross was that way was being made.
Jesus also bore for us the consequence of the sin's of the world. What is the consequence of sin? Alienation from God is a result of sin. What does Roman's 1 say 3 times? Gave them up. . . . gave them up. . . . gave them up.
If, in that time, when Jesus was bearing the sins of the world He didn't also bear the consequences of those sins. . . it is incomplete and it is not finished.
As far as Jesus teaching from the cross. . . . first someone, somewhere, is going to have to start admitting that no mere mortal man could endure the wrath of God and hold twig at the same time. Who was there? 3 Mary's, John, the TWO crucified with Him . . . maybe a few guards. . . . but, think about the first ones He appeared to in His resurrected body? He appeared to His disciples.
That clip basically said nothing. . .. yet, to my ears it was still a basic denial of the gospel. How do they do that?
For me, one of the scariest things I realized about God post TWI is that sometimes God does allow us to continue in gross error. . . . He leaves us right where we are determined to be.. . . .
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penworks
If you click here, an edited version is in print. BTW his reference to "Aramaic" near the end is quick and vague with little explanation.
Eli Eli in print
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Ham
and it looks like he's learned from j.l. after all.. it isn't a *teaching*.. its a mind numbing EPISTLE.. the *little* article is way, way, way too long.. by the time one has listened or even just read it through, one is practically numbed enough to believe almost anything..
why can't he just get to the friggin point?
at least he didn't spin yarns about arguing with bible clearing house officials, and make the unsubstantiated claim (at least to the present in my opinion) of how the *cowards* won't sell us eastern versions of bibles or something.. unless I missed it when I skipped a few pages while drooling on the keyboard..
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Tzaia
Sorry - I'm breaking my own rule about the 2 word reply, but this was LOL funny. Why say it in 5 minutes if you can stretch it to 30. And doncha just love the scripted little intro that starts every "teaching"? The attempts to make is sound like it's not being read, when it is so obviously being read.
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johnj
TWI's Aramaic Interlinear translators fought Cummins over the reading of Mat 27:46, knowing it reads "forsaken/ deserted." The Aramaic lexicons they use have "forsaken." The Aramaic word also appears in Mat 26:56 (the same Gospel) translated correctly as the disciples "deserted" Him and fled. Their inconsistency in translating shows how "spare" was false, but included to please VP & Co.
The TWI Aramaic interlinear is very orthodox Christian compared to TWI. In it,
- Thomas says "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28)
- Baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19)
- Jesus says, "before Abe, I was" (John 8:58)
- John 1:18 reads "the only begotten God"
- the Spirit is "he" (John 16:13)
- Peter would glorify God by his death (John 21:18)
- the Spirit of His Son cries Abba (Gal 4:6)
You can find on article on this in the research section of www.abouttheway.org
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johnj
By quoting Psalm 22:1, Jesus was telling his listeners to read the whole Psalm. Perhaps he even quoted more of it. It's an amazing prophecy of the crucifixion.
There are many details in it which are exactly what occurred in crucifixion... my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth, my strength is dried up, they pierced my hands and feet, he's with the transgressors (men crucified with Him), but with the rich in death (Joseph's fancy tomb), people ridicule him, etc. Any Jew would think that all that pain was indeed proof that God had abandoned Him- because why would a present God let an innocent man go through that?
We always read this Psalm at the end of worship on Maundy Thursday (the night before Good Friday). People who listened to Him would understand that His crucifixion was at that very moment fulfilling Psalm 22.
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newlife
In Lamsa's Translation of Matthew it says, "My, God, My God, for this was I kept"
www.lamsabible.com
"Dr. Lamsa was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. He was a strong advocate of one of that Church's beliefs: Pedangta primacy (a form of Aramaic primacy). His hypothesis was that for the New Testament, the Aramaic Pedangta was the original text, and the Greek version was translated from it. In support of this, he noted that Aramaic was the language of Jesus, His Disciples and the earliest Christians, including the authors of the Bible" (quoted from Home Page of Lamsa)
Know that I am not trying to support VP's teaching but more of WHERE he got it from...I don't know anything much about Lamsa...but from his website he appears to be a scholar of the bible and of the early language and he was Eastern, not Western. And this is what VP said, if I recollect it correctly. I, however, don't know a thing about Eastern vs Western...
Now the thing about "selling more bibles" seems a little out there for me...that doesn't seem to be right at all.
I also understand the translation of "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" and how that has been supported from the bible. And most of the "western" world believes this translation....
I've not done the research so I can't comment on what which would be the correct one...Eastern or Western
It would be interesting though, I think, to look into it if you are a researcher.
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