I don't recall ever hearing Martindale "teach" on it, but our local Way Corps did:
in 1995 or 96 Martindale wanted the Way Corps to find out where offshoot fellowships were functioning.
I was instructed to call a woman who I knew from years before, who had graduated from the Corps and had split from Martindale immediately post-POP.
I was to tell her that I was not with The Way, but was interested in going to some kind of fellowship. I was specifically instructed to lie to her in order to find out how many offshoot fellowships she knew about and who they were affiliated with.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
The corpse teaching I was refering to was when Craig was teaching I Kings 22 (or the parrallel in Chronicles) about the prophet Micaiah.
quote:
I Kings 22:15-16
So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he ansered him, Go, and prosper: for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the Lord?
Micaiah goes on to tell the king that he is going to get his *** kicked.
Craig's comment on Micaiah's initial lying was, "So what! He's speaking to an unbelieving king who has no right to the truth!" I am paraphrasing since it has been about 8 years since I heard it and have no notes. It did stick in my memory pretty good though.
I don't doubt that lying to unbelievers as been an unpublished doctrine of TWI for years. They don't feel they should have to offer the truth when it is only going to get them in trouble. And the way Craig interpreted this section, leads me to believe it to be true.
Add to this the other court cases, including my own, where innies out-right lied about current practices of TWI, I'd say the doctrine is alive and well.
Personally, I was once told to explicitly lie to innies when I was an innie. When Craig first admitted to his "affair" (his words) he had agreed to not teach publicly anymore until the lawsuit was over. We were told by our RC that when the peon innies (below TC level) asked why Craig wasn't teaching anymore, we were to follow HQ's lead and say he has been sick. The prior Sunday to this, Craig was scheduled to teach but didn't and everyone was told that he was sick. Actually, the reason was because the lawsuit was about to break open.
Never needed to lie though. It only took a couple of days before they were admiting the thing to everyone.
theend, that section was covered years ago by vp in the advanced class. craig's interpretation is dramatically different than his mentor's.
in the a.c. it was taught as sarcasm. the king knew dam well that he never got any good news from the prophet, so when he asks the question, the answer is with the tone of "oh suuuure! absolutely, king. you'll win hands down. go now, have no fear! heh heh...you know i'm always behind you!"
picture sadaam hussein asking cole what he thinks of his chances against a u.s. military action -"you'll do well! you've got a greeeeat army!"
politics aside, craig's assertion that a person speaking on god's behalf and for his people would lie just says what low esteem he holds god in and that his conscience is seared like an over cooked strip of bacon. his morals and ethics speaks for themselves. how anyone can trust these people around their wives, children, family and money, let alone ministry, is beyond me. birds of a feather flock together i guess.
---------------------------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
[This message was edited by socks on December 15, 2002 at 23:18.]
[This message was edited by socks on December 15, 2002 at 23:22.]
Part of what they hang the doctrine on is also Moses being put in the river as a baby. It is ok to lie to the king... (that is quite a section to use to teach that). They also have alluded to this when teaching that David feigned that he was crazy. And they may have mentioned in the section where one of the patriarchs says that his wife is his sister - which is somewhat contradictary because they also taught that it wasn't lying in another area because she really was his sister.
One section that I have been thinking over is the one where the king numbered the people before going to war. This was apparently a great sin because it was using sense knowledge to decide on whether to go to war or not.
Although I cannot remember if it is taught I speculate that one of their primary doctrines is that we need to do that because Joshua sent spies into the promised land. Therefore, since we are in the promised land we need to send spies out to see what we are up against. Well if so, I would say that is somewhat of a stretch. The word teaches who goes to war without counting the cost. You cannot plan a battle strategy without knowing the terrain, physical location of your enemy and many other factors. To say we are doing spiritual battle because we know the locations of spin off groups is absurd. By that logic, you would have a list of 100,000's of churches that do not agree with your doctrine.
When threads like this make mention of these details it reminds of that counting the people. Now, JC did ask his disciples whom do men say I am? But that was far from lying.
Lastly, this is suggested or taught when they bring up "protecting the Christ line". Although I do not have the biblical answer as to whether people did recieve revelation from God to lie to protect the Christ line I can say for sure that even if that were true - I cannot fathom how anyone could make the leap to lying while doing the work of the ministry.
This brings me back to the thread I started on 5 senses discerning of spirits and other twistings of the scripture.
IMO, all they have to do is tell people it wasn't their policy to mark and avoid, or have no debt, or pets, or (fill in the blank)... it was Craig's policy! That way they're off the hook! He's the scapegoat - and he's gone! I guess they can blame him for anything that comes up that innies have questions about.
I know it's been brought up that in order to be in TWI in the last half of the 90's, you had to be fairly adept at lying.
You couldn't tell the truth if you wanted to continue going to their fellowships because you feared being put on "spiritual probation" or M&A'd.
For example: If I didn't feel like going to fellowship, I would usually say I wasn't feeling well that night because, God forbid I tell the truth - that I just plain didn't want to go. That would be one more shovel of dirt on my TWI grave!
When we bought a new vehicle, our business put half down and financed the rest. When asked how we paid for the vehicle, our answer was "the business bought it". It wasn't an out-and-out lie, but we didn't give them all the information either. God forbid we tell them we took out a loan on it (which was none of their business to begin with). We'd be put on "probation" that day.
There was a couple here who bought a house. Their parents gave them a huge chunk of change for the downpayment. It was an offer they couldn't (and shouldn't) refuse! They told the BC that they were renting. When the BC discovered the truth - he immediately kicked them out and let the entire branch know about it. He said their lie was worse than the fact they went into debt. But we all knew they would have been kicked out for either offense.
So to teach that people it's okay to lie doesn't surprise me at all. IMO, it's a common practice.
Okay, this may come as a shock to some of us BUT, twi has been subliminally teaching THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS!
Now, I know that the official twi doctrine is that this type of thinking (the end justifies the means) is completely off the word and is un-godly (Lifestyle of a Believer anyone?), however that is their teaching in practice if not in doctrine.
This is their method of dealing with everything. What is good for twi is good for twi, screw the rest of the world, screw their own followers, screw THE TRUTH.
I had the impression for many years that it was ok to lie to those outside the household. It came under the umbrella of 'all things lawful, all things not expedient' logic.
If the word was gonna move you just did whatever it took. If you needed to lie about refrences in order to get some WOW's into an apartment, so be it.
Embelish your work refrences because 'you are God's best and deserve the best'
Hide some negative aspect of your life because you don't want to 'confess the negative', especially to unbelievers. What kind of witness would that be ?
I don't remember where I picked up this way of thinking but it was deeply engrained in most way 'believers'.
Was it wrong for sympathizers to hide Jews and then lie about their whereabouts when Nazis banged on their doors?
When does sleight, or mild deception - which businessmen do every day in sales, negotiation, etc. - become full fledged lying?
Is it wrong to tell your kids that a fat guy in a red suit brought their gifts?...does this lie hold the same weight as the lie told under oath in a court of law?...are all lies the same in God's eyes?
What is the threshold? Is it as rigid as "catagorical imperative"?
Is it as lax as "the end justifies the means"?
Just wondering out loud.
These are the things we "rapped" about 25 yrs ago in Ethics 101 when I thought I knew everything.
Craig taught that the midwives lied saying the children were born faster than they could kill them or something like that. He often justified lying. But I think he mentioned that they had revelation to lie.
Has anyone had revelation to lie?
I think knowing what I know now, Craig used these teachings as leverage to get what he wanted from others. He had an ulterior motive for everything he taught and many in the twi were excellent students of his.
As "leaves on the tree", we were expected to be truthful and "fully share" with our leadership about all aspects of our lives, yet they did not feel the same obligation toward us.
From the examples I see listed here, lying was done when a life was a stake, or something equally serious, revelation or not.
Of course Martindale painted everything as life and death, so he had his excuses lined up and ready.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
...we lied, or prevaricated, to avoid having to deal with the arguments with leadership.
Maybe you knew it was best for your family to get a car loan, but you also knew that nothing you would say could convince "leadership".
Another thing that encouraged deception "in the ranks" was the harsh way that we were dealt with when we did screw up. Who would want to admit that they needed help in an area when to do so would invite invasive scrutiny and condemnation of our "weakness"?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
That's a great piece about the conscience. "Rounding off the corners" so to speak.
Craig has a habit of digging around in the bible for "new light" to defend his actions and set his course. It's like a dog who can't figure out where that bone of his is so he tears up the flower garden and destroys it looking for it. In the end all that dog gets is a dirty face and a lot of dead flowers.
All of this makes me think: at what point does a Christian ministry realize it needs to teach it's leadership how to lie and "when it's okay" to do it?
Moses - A mom hides her baby from those who will murder it, and VOILA! We got a new piece o' light here. Oooooh, heavy! We never saw that before! I think that's the expected response they want, right?
The Way has become a ministry of Lists and Techiniques. Everything in the bible is taken out of it's context and made to fit in to some list to do this, another list for victorious that. It's like a freakin' self help group but without the help. As long as they get up in the morning and start ticking off something on a list of "keys for the effectual walk of power", they know they're on track, in fellowship, aligned, harmonized and on point. Their goal seems to be "Successful Living Through Micro-Management of Every Non-Essential Detail in Life". Meanwhile the important things slip away. If it didn't hurt people, it would be funny.
They can lie all the want to. That sound they hear is the ice under their feet slowly cracking.
-------------------------------------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
is one of the 10 commandments "thou shalt not lie"?
i lie quite a bit at times, but never to hurt anyone, if that makes sense
i don't think i've ever gotten revelation to lie, have i ever even gotten revelation
i never lie to God or JC or angels because i know they know
this is interesting, this thread
as far as the ends justifying the means, i don't think that makes sense if the means are bad. did that make sense
white lies, venial / mortal sins etc.
when wierwille tried to get me again that time on the coach, i pretended i was unconscious so he wouldn't come near me. was i lying? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
when he initially got me on the coach to counsel me, was he lying? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
If you're going to use the bible as your standard, then how does the bible define lying,and when does it allow it?
It says in Exodus 20:16 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor - it doesn't exactly say "don't lie". What's the distinction? Not sure.
Ephesians 4:25 - Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor; for we are members one of another
Now I can imagine twi defining "neighbor" in such a way as to exclude what they call unbelievers.
but...
Romans 12:17 - Recompense no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men
I think it's pretty clear that the standard is honesty and truthfullness. It's also pretty clear that the bible make room for exceptions. Those exceptions always involve protecting yourself or your loved ones from those that would do you harm.
TWI went beyond that to lying to avoid embarassment, lying to keep people in line, lying to maintain access to "sex slaves", lying to make the MOG look like...well, a MOG.
And we can't blame this all on Martindale either. There wasn't any snowstorm in Tulsa that weekend.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
At our last meeting EVER, call it our excommunication-take a vacation meeting with our new area leader, he stated an outright lie. My wife and I, with all the love of God in our hearts, tried, by stating that he had forgotten what he said, then saying he misunderstood what he said, then showing him a copy of the statements he made. (IN WRITING)
The son of a b-tch still denied it.
One and a half years later, we were told by a corps grad, who was at the area leaders excommunication-take a vacation meeting, that the Way ministry fired him for:
...and psychological question for this open forum.
The deeper you delve into this conflict and duality of various degree, I think you'll find somewhere along all the avenues you take it into ~ lying is for the unliberated...on every level of existence.
thus, truth = freedom
yes Ginger, i think you're smart as ____!
i did not say fook!! .....it just doesn't sound right for a guy.....Exc was being ladylike
Recommended Posts
Oakspear
I don't recall ever hearing Martindale "teach" on it, but our local Way Corps did:
in 1995 or 96 Martindale wanted the Way Corps to find out where offshoot fellowships were functioning.
I was instructed to call a woman who I knew from years before, who had graduated from the Corps and had split from Martindale immediately post-POP.
I was to tell her that I was not with The Way, but was interested in going to some kind of fellowship. I was specifically instructed to lie to her in order to find out how many offshoot fellowships she knew about and who they were affiliated with.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEnd
The corpse teaching I was refering to was when Craig was teaching I Kings 22 (or the parrallel in Chronicles) about the prophet Micaiah.
Micaiah goes on to tell the king that he is going to get his *** kicked.
Craig's comment on Micaiah's initial lying was, "So what! He's speaking to an unbelieving king who has no right to the truth!" I am paraphrasing since it has been about 8 years since I heard it and have no notes. It did stick in my memory pretty good though.
I don't doubt that lying to unbelievers as been an unpublished doctrine of TWI for years. They don't feel they should have to offer the truth when it is only going to get them in trouble. And the way Craig interpreted this section, leads me to believe it to be true.
Add to this the other court cases, including my own, where innies out-right lied about current practices of TWI, I'd say the doctrine is alive and well.
Personally, I was once told to explicitly lie to innies when I was an innie. When Craig first admitted to his "affair" (his words) he had agreed to not teach publicly anymore until the lawsuit was over. We were told by our RC that when the peon innies (below TC level) asked why Craig wasn't teaching anymore, we were to follow HQ's lead and say he has been sick. The prior Sunday to this, Craig was scheduled to teach but didn't and everyone was told that he was sick. Actually, the reason was because the lawsuit was about to break open.
Never needed to lie though. It only took a couple of days before they were admiting the thing to everyone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
theend, that section was covered years ago by vp in the advanced class. craig's interpretation is dramatically different than his mentor's.
in the a.c. it was taught as sarcasm. the king knew dam well that he never got any good news from the prophet, so when he asks the question, the answer is with the tone of "oh suuuure! absolutely, king. you'll win hands down. go now, have no fear! heh heh...you know i'm always behind you!"
picture sadaam hussein asking cole what he thinks of his chances against a u.s. military action -"you'll do well! you've got a greeeeat army!"
politics aside, craig's assertion that a person speaking on god's behalf and for his people would lie just says what low esteem he holds god in and that his conscience is seared like an over cooked strip of bacon. his morals and ethics speaks for themselves. how anyone can trust these people around their wives, children, family and money, let alone ministry, is beyond me. birds of a feather flock together i guess.
---------------------------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
[This message was edited by socks on December 15, 2002 at 23:18.]
[This message was edited by socks on December 15, 2002 at 23:22.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Thanks for posting that, Socks.
I never saw vpw teach that, but I'm glad he was
honest about that, at least.
From the first time I read those verses, though,
that's the impression I got. It's not that hard
to detect the sarcasm, especially if you read
the whole chapter.
-------
I read something once.
It said a native american was asked if he knew
what a conscience was.
He replied, "It is a 3-cornered thing in here."
*gestures to his chest*
"When I do wrong, it turns, and the corners
stick me & hurt me.
But if I KEEP doing wrong, then the corners wear
out & they don't hurt anymore."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
troubledwine
Part of what they hang the doctrine on is also Moses being put in the river as a baby. It is ok to lie to the king... (that is quite a section to use to teach that). They also have alluded to this when teaching that David feigned that he was crazy. And they may have mentioned in the section where one of the patriarchs says that his wife is his sister - which is somewhat contradictary because they also taught that it wasn't lying in another area because she really was his sister.
One section that I have been thinking over is the one where the king numbered the people before going to war. This was apparently a great sin because it was using sense knowledge to decide on whether to go to war or not.
Although I cannot remember if it is taught I speculate that one of their primary doctrines is that we need to do that because Joshua sent spies into the promised land. Therefore, since we are in the promised land we need to send spies out to see what we are up against. Well if so, I would say that is somewhat of a stretch. The word teaches who goes to war without counting the cost. You cannot plan a battle strategy without knowing the terrain, physical location of your enemy and many other factors. To say we are doing spiritual battle because we know the locations of spin off groups is absurd. By that logic, you would have a list of 100,000's of churches that do not agree with your doctrine.
When threads like this make mention of these details it reminds of that counting the people. Now, JC did ask his disciples whom do men say I am? But that was far from lying.
Lastly, this is suggested or taught when they bring up "protecting the Christ line". Although I do not have the biblical answer as to whether people did recieve revelation from God to lie to protect the Christ line I can say for sure that even if that were true - I cannot fathom how anyone could make the leap to lying while doing the work of the ministry.
This brings me back to the thread I started on 5 senses discerning of spirits and other twistings of the scripture.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
IMO, all they have to do is tell people it wasn't their policy to mark and avoid, or have no debt, or pets, or (fill in the blank)... it was Craig's policy! That way they're off the hook! He's the scapegoat - and he's gone! I guess they can blame him for anything that comes up that innies have questions about.
I know it's been brought up that in order to be in TWI in the last half of the 90's, you had to be fairly adept at lying.
You couldn't tell the truth if you wanted to continue going to their fellowships because you feared being put on "spiritual probation" or M&A'd.
For example: If I didn't feel like going to fellowship, I would usually say I wasn't feeling well that night because, God forbid I tell the truth - that I just plain didn't want to go. That would be one more shovel of dirt on my TWI grave!
When we bought a new vehicle, our business put half down and financed the rest. When asked how we paid for the vehicle, our answer was "the business bought it". It wasn't an out-and-out lie, but we didn't give them all the information either. God forbid we tell them we took out a loan on it (which was none of their business to begin with). We'd be put on "probation" that day.
There was a couple here who bought a house. Their parents gave them a huge chunk of change for the downpayment. It was an offer they couldn't (and shouldn't) refuse! They told the BC that they were renting. When the BC discovered the truth - he immediately kicked them out and let the entire branch know about it. He said their lie was worse than the fact they went into debt. But we all knew they would have been kicked out for either offense.
So to teach that people it's okay to lie doesn't surprise me at all. IMO, it's a common practice.
Hope R. color>size>face>
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Okay, this may come as a shock to some of us BUT, twi has been subliminally teaching THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS!
Now, I know that the official twi doctrine is that this type of thinking (the end justifies the means) is completely off the word and is un-godly (Lifestyle of a Believer anyone?), however that is their teaching in practice if not in doctrine.
This is their method of dealing with everything. What is good for twi is good for twi, screw the rest of the world, screw their own followers, screw THE TRUTH.
ROR
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wow76-78
I had the impression for many years that it was ok to lie to those outside the household. It came under the umbrella of 'all things lawful, all things not expedient' logic.
If the word was gonna move you just did whatever it took. If you needed to lie about refrences in order to get some WOW's into an apartment, so be it.
Embelish your work refrences because 'you are God's best and deserve the best'
Hide some negative aspect of your life because you don't want to 'confess the negative', especially to unbelievers. What kind of witness would that be ?
I don't remember where I picked up this way of thinking but it was deeply engrained in most way 'believers'.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Yanagisawa
Is it always wrong to lie?
Was it wrong for sympathizers to hide Jews and then lie about their whereabouts when Nazis banged on their doors?
When does sleight, or mild deception - which businessmen do every day in sales, negotiation, etc. - become full fledged lying?
Is it wrong to tell your kids that a fat guy in a red suit brought their gifts?...does this lie hold the same weight as the lie told under oath in a court of law?...are all lies the same in God's eyes?
What is the threshold? Is it as rigid as "catagorical imperative"?
Is it as lax as "the end justifies the means"?
Just wondering out loud.
These are the things we "rapped" about 25 yrs ago in Ethics 101 when I thought I knew everything.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simpleton
Craig taught that the midwives lied saying the children were born faster than they could kill them or something like that. He often justified lying. But I think he mentioned that they had revelation to lie.
Has anyone had revelation to lie?
I think knowing what I know now, Craig used these teachings as leverage to get what he wanted from others. He had an ulterior motive for everything he taught and many in the twi were excellent students of his.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
As "leaves on the tree", we were expected to be truthful and "fully share" with our leadership about all aspects of our lives, yet they did not feel the same obligation toward us.
From the examples I see listed here, lying was done when a life was a stake, or something equally serious, revelation or not.
Of course Martindale painted everything as life and death, so he had his excuses lined up and ready.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
...we lied, or prevaricated, to avoid having to deal with the arguments with leadership.
Maybe you knew it was best for your family to get a car loan, but you also knew that nothing you would say could convince "leadership".
Another thing that encouraged deception "in the ranks" was the harsh way that we were dealt with when we did screw up. Who would want to admit that they needed help in an area when to do so would invite invasive scrutiny and condemnation of our "weakness"?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
That's a great piece about the conscience. "Rounding off the corners" so to speak.
Craig has a habit of digging around in the bible for "new light" to defend his actions and set his course. It's like a dog who can't figure out where that bone of his is so he tears up the flower garden and destroys it looking for it. In the end all that dog gets is a dirty face and a lot of dead flowers.
All of this makes me think: at what point does a Christian ministry realize it needs to teach it's leadership how to lie and "when it's okay" to do it?
Moses - A mom hides her baby from those who will murder it, and VOILA! We got a new piece o' light here. Oooooh, heavy! We never saw that before! I think that's the expected response they want, right?
The Way has become a ministry of Lists and Techiniques. Everything in the bible is taken out of it's context and made to fit in to some list to do this, another list for victorious that. It's like a freakin' self help group but without the help. As long as they get up in the morning and start ticking off something on a list of "keys for the effectual walk of power", they know they're on track, in fellowship, aligned, harmonized and on point. Their goal seems to be "Successful Living Through Micro-Management of Every Non-Essential Detail in Life". Meanwhile the important things slip away. If it didn't hurt people, it would be funny.
They can lie all the want to. That sound they hear is the ice under their feet slowly cracking.
-------------------------------------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ok i'm getting old
is one of the 10 commandments "thou shalt not lie"?
i lie quite a bit at times, but never to hurt anyone, if that makes sense
i don't think i've ever gotten revelation to lie, have i ever even gotten revelation
i never lie to God or JC or angels because i know they know
this is interesting, this thread
as far as the ends justifying the means, i don't think that makes sense if the means are bad. did that make sense
white lies, venial / mortal sins etc.
when wierwille tried to get me again that time on the coach, i pretended i was unconscious so he wouldn't come near me. was i lying? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
when he initially got me on the coach to counsel me, was he lying? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Link to comment
Share on other sites
firebee
I did the unconscious thing too.
I was younger then, had hair and even was in decent shape. A gal at a party was hitting on me all night long, and I wasn't interested.
Looking back, perhaps I should have stayed awake*
*we are still pals
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
well i would not compare the two incidents at all
ps. not up to talking about it right now
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i was young too, way too young as a matter of fact
looking back i would do anything to change the hell i lived through that night
unconscious was a survival technique, don't you get it
i think you've read this forum enough, don't kid me
glad you're still "pals" what the hell are you talking about anyway?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
firebee
I was in no way trying to demean you or what you went thru.
Your post brought back a memory of something that happened to me many years ago.
Please accept my appology for offending you, that was NOT my intent
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ginger, you are the smartest person on this forum
and ocd says you are smart as fook
i think he and i are saying the same thing
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If you're going to use the bible as your standard, then how does the bible define lying,and when does it allow it?
It says in Exodus 20:16 - Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor - it doesn't exactly say "don't lie". What's the distinction? Not sure.
Ephesians 4:25 - Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor; for we are members one of another
Now I can imagine twi defining "neighbor" in such a way as to exclude what they call unbelievers.
but...
Romans 12:17 - Recompense no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men
I think it's pretty clear that the standard is honesty and truthfullness. It's also pretty clear that the bible make room for exceptions. Those exceptions always involve protecting yourself or your loved ones from those that would do you harm.
TWI went beyond that to lying to avoid embarassment, lying to keep people in line, lying to maintain access to "sex slaves", lying to make the MOG look like...well, a MOG.
And we can't blame this all on Martindale either. There wasn't any snowstorm in Tulsa that weekend.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lightside
At our last meeting EVER, call it our excommunication-take a vacation meeting with our new area leader, he stated an outright lie. My wife and I, with all the love of God in our hearts, tried, by stating that he had forgotten what he said, then saying he misunderstood what he said, then showing him a copy of the statements he made. (IN WRITING)
The son of a b-tch still denied it.
One and a half years later, we were told by a corps grad, who was at the area leaders excommunication-take a vacation meeting, that the Way ministry fired him for:
"MAKING DEVILISH DECISIONS CONCERNING BELIEVERS LIVES"
In 18 months this guy DESTROYED THE AREA.
AND THE WAY INTERNATIONAL "DID NOTHING" TO CORRECT THIS FIRED EMPLOYEES MISTAKES.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OCD #1
there wasn't!!!???
there was a man in india with a withered hand though, wasn't there??
VP did get the key to the city, didn't he??
"and as the train was pulling out.."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OCD #1
thus, truth = freedom
yes Ginger, i think you're smart as ____!
i did not say fook!! .....it just doesn't sound right for a guy.....Exc was being ladylike
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WyoMan
One must always remember you are dealing with a corporation and as such they will always end up playing it just the way their attornies tell them to.
i.e. never admit past mistakes because of the liability can of worms it opens.
The Christian way to do it....not!!!
Al Hendrickson
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.