I understand and remember TWI's other lecture of "not only did you let the adversary in, you locked the door on God". Black/White/The End.
Never heard that joyful snippet.
Yeah, anyway, it's really walking in the steps of Jesus Christ, ennit? He always beat on people who had problems and told them it was all their fault. He never offered to help anyone in need. He never stretched out a hand to help when he could have done. No, he condemned at every opportunity. He even threw the first stone at the woman caught in adultery. And he really got in the faces of Lazarus, Mary and Martha for their lack of believing such that L died.
By the time the 90's rolled around, the answer to the question "where did you let the adversary in?" was just a setup for leadership to brand you as spiritually weak, a contaminant in the household, a doorstop letting evil in.
There were many times that I would think about that question, honestly trying to dtermine where I had screwed up only to have my response accusedly thrown back in my face.
lol no, that's my youngest daughter; she's 14 now.
Yeah, she used to say "this is America, I have rights" when I was scolding her about something.......hahaha, I'd forgotten about that.
----------------------------------------
I've spend much time lately thinking about the standards of The Way International and their one liners that were coined for whatever reason, no reason at all or using The Bible as their excuse and the sheer DAMAGE caused and still rippling in lives.
My daughters and my grand daughter teach me so much more than I ever might them, actually, as I but listen and really hear what they say. My grandpa said "listen to old people and kids, they'll both tell you the truth". So true huh?
I'm blessed, I'm thankful, I'm learning and understanding more and more daily as I deal with this stuff and take it on; painful and no. I'm at a really fantastic place of gleaning from those who truly seek to enrich my life, add to it's emotional well being and consider my value.
Sometimes I wonder if I didn't check my brain at the doorstep along with my "negatives" which weren't allowed to come in to twig and find relief. Meany Poopheads indeed!
Sometimes I wonder if I didn't check my brain at the doorstep along with my "negatives" which weren't allowed to come in to twig and find relief. Meany Poopheads indeed!
WG
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, is what I would like to say. This surely wasn't just a 90's thing. When I went WOW in the 70's I lost custody of my baby girl because of it. VPW's response? You didn't listen to God! WTF??? Where? When? By going WOW was the answer, it just took me years to see it. Ha. So, I kidnapped my kid and actually got away with it and thought I had done something wonderful for God. And, honestly, God made good where I had made a wrong decision. Doesn't He do that for us, His kids?
Along those lines, if someone falls off a 10 story building is it the adversary who kills him or is it God's law of gravity? A broken heart can kill someone just as easily as a diseased one.
I guess that's my point. If someone falls off a 10 story building, The Way would offer that if s/he was paying attention to God, s/he would have seen the dumb edge of the building. Never mind that they have eyeballs in their heads, right?
The illogic is so much the point too, isn't it?
My argument today is that if someone falls off the building, I have to wonder what Way Leadership told them it was ok to stand so close to that edge.
God never told me to go WoW, or take the advanced class, or go to corps, or have way people move in with me. Apparently he told a bunch of other people (all of them in the way) all those things, but I never heard from God. In fact, every time I even considered it, a bunch of reasons why none of those things would really work for me, bubbled to the surface even as I was being told to ignore those reasons by people in the way.
Ironically, I was told by several people (in the way) that it wasn't a good idea for me to marry my (now) husband. However, he was delivered to my doorstep just like I asked God to do. That was "our" secret handshake that would let me know that God had sent the person and not just wishful thinking on my part. I figured it wasn't a coincidence, since it happened exactly like that.
People in the way continually questioned my ability to hear from God in my own life, yet never questioned their own ability to hear from God on my behalf.
I guess that's my point. If someone falls off a 10 story building, The Way would offer that if s/he was paying attention to God, s/he would have seen the dumb edge of the building. Never mind that they have eyeballs in their heads, right?
The illogic is so much the point too, isn't it?
My argument today is that if someone falls off the building, I have to wonder what Way Leadership told them it was ok to stand so close to that edge.
There's thislittle book (64 pp) called "The Will of God" by Lesie D. Weatherhead that speaks of the THREE wills of God: The intentional, circumstantial and ultimate will of God. It's so worth finding, something that makes so friggin much sense, you want to hit yourself over the head when you read it.
Think about this (if you haven't already): "The laws of the universe which are themselves an expression of God's will, were not set aside for Jesus, the beloved son. The laws which govern the hammering in of nails held on the day of crucifixion in just the same way as they do when you nail up a wooden box."
God never told me to go WoW, or take the advanced class, or go to corps, or have way people move in with me. Apparently he told a bunch of other people (all of them in the way) all those things, but I never heard from God. In fact, every time I even considered it, a bunch of reasons why none of those things would really work for me, bubbled to the surface even as I was being told to ignore those reasons by people in the way.
Ironically, I was told by several people (in the way) that it wasn't a good idea for me to marry my (now) husband. However, he was delivered to my doorstep just like I asked God to do. That was "our" secret handshake that would let me know that God had sent the person and not just wishful thinking on my part. I figured it wasn't a coincidence, since it happened exactly like that.
People in the way continually questioned my ability to hear from God in my own life, yet never questioned their own ability to hear from God on my behalf.
How refreshing to actually hear someone say what I thought for so long! To this day I cringe when people say God told them this or that. For all my years in that damned ministry I was horrified that I never got revelation. I even got to the point of wondering if I was even saved. So, just what is it anyway? A smack upside the head or that still small voice? I'm not seriously looking for an answer. I don't doubt it could happen, I just don't think it's an everyday, common occurrence.
Does anyone ever wonder why der Victoid needed "all 9 all the time" just to sit on his motorcoach and drink Drambuie?
SIT - drambuie, drambuie, ball, balloon, ball-O, jello drambuie shots
Interpretation - My little children the Lord Gawdawlmighty wants you to make Drambuie jello shots and give them all to me so that he can bless me and keep me all the days of your life.
Prophecy - Thou shalt give me Drambuie in a porcelain cup.
WOK - I know there's Drambuie under your sink.
WOW - The Lawd wants you to give me that Drambuie
Disc of Spirits - If you touch my Drambuie you'll be possessed and born of the wrong seed.
I doubt if they would accept this answer but mine would have been. "I didn't let him, Adam did." Because that is really the only place the real blame lies. we might do something once in a while to make it worse, but that is never the point. The point is that we help each other when we fall. Not by putting the blame on them, but helping them, as Christ would have, to rise above the problem. To feed them when they are hungry, clothe them when they are naked. To comfort them when they are sad and on and on. All of us fail. I've had God sometimes tell me where I messed up for information in the future, but I've almost never had someone else tell me where I've messed up and had them been correct about it.
Does anyone ever wonder why der Victoid needed "all 9 all the time" just to sit on his motorcoach and drink Drambuie?
SIT - drambuie, drambuie, ball, balloon, ball-O, jello drambuie shots
Interpretation - My little children the Lord Gawdawlmighty wants you to make Drambuie jello shots and give them all to me so that he can bless me and keep me all the days of your life.
Prophecy - Thou shalt give me Drambuie in a porcelain cup.
WOK - I know there's Drambuie under your sink.
WOW - The Lawd wants you to give me that Drambuie
Disc of Spirits - If you touch my Drambuie you'll be possessed and born of the wrong seed.
Faith - I BELIEVE in Drambuie
Miracles - Five bottles of Drambuie!
Healing - Ahhhh.... that's the stuff
Clever, girl! Check on my house once in awhile, okay?
all my life i wondered why things happened to me and what i did to let them or make them happened to me because of course it had to be because of my believing or because i "left the door open" or "dropped my guard" or wasn't "dealing with the adversary" right or something. but then about a couple of weeks ago i watched that oprah episode where she was interviewing those convicted pedophiles and getting into their heads. i watched it because i have this masochistic need to know why perpetrators do what they do. but anyway, there was a man on there that had messed with his own twelve year old daughter and oprah asked him what he said to his wife to get out of trouble with her when his daughter told on him. he said that he told his wife his daughter was lying to get what she wanted. oprah asked him how that made hiim feel to say his own daughter was a liar. he said, "i wasn't thinking about her or what i was doing to her. i was just trying to cover my own butt." that's when it hit me and hit me hard that all abusers are the same and that all abusers want just one thing and that one thing is they want what they want. that's it. they're not thinking of anything else but what they want. it doesn't matter if the abuser is "just" a verbal abuser or if the abuser is a pedophile or if the abuser is a cult leader or if the abuser is a wife beater or if the abuser is a murderer or if the abuser is a rapist or if the abuser is an arsonist or if the abuser is a burglar or whatever. the bottom line is they are thinking ONLY of themselves and what THEY want. so it has NOTHING to do with who/what they choose to perpetrate against. and sickness and misfortune are the same way. $h1t happens because that is what $h1t does.
all my life i wondered why things happened to me and what i did to let them or make them happened to me because of course it had to be because of my believing or because i "left the door open" or "dropped my guard" or wasn't "dealing with the adversary" right or something. but then about a couple of weeks ago i watched that oprah episode where she was interviewing those convicted pedophiles and getting into their heads. i watched it because i have this masochistic need to know why perpetrators do what they do. but anyway, there was a man on there that had messed with his own twelve year old daughter and oprah asked him what he said to his wife to get out of trouble with her when his daughter told on him. he said that he told his wife his daughter was lying to get what she wanted. oprah asked him how that made hiim feel to say his own daughter was a liar. he said, "i wasn't thinking about her or what i was doing to her. i was just trying to cover my own butt." that's when it hit me and hit me hard that all abusers are the same and that all abusers want just one thing and that one thing is they want what they want. that's it. they're not thinking of anything else but what they want. it doesn't matter if the abuser is "just" a verbal abuser or if the abuser is a pedophile or if the abuser is a cult leader or if the abuser is a wife beater or if the abuser is a murderer or if the abuser is a rapist or if the abuser is an arsonist or if the abuser is a burglar or whatever. the bottom line is they are thinking ONLY of themselves and what THEY want. so it has NOTHING to do with who/what they choose to perpetrate against. and sickness and misfortune are the same way. $h1t happens because that is what $h1t does.
Probably most of us have had abusers in our lives or even been one (Maybe still are?). For me drug abuse surrounded me. Lost two brothers and nearly a son. My take? Yes, I believe there's an adversary, but I think he has this society so tied up that he really has nothing much left to do but sit back and laugh at us. I think there's a couple of accounts where the person needing healing was told to "look at me." Jesus said it and Peter, I think, also. I think the reason for that was so the person could concentrate and not let outside influences well, influence them. I find the word "balance" disturbing. I wish there was a definition I could live with for it. But, as for all you said, all we can worry about is our own selves and not try and figure out why stuff happens the way it does and just try to not be the cause of it happening.
............ it doesn't matter if the abuser is "just" a verbal abuser or if the abuser is a pedophile or if the abuser is a cult leader or if the abuser is a wife beater or if the abuser is a murderer or if the abuser is a rapist or if the abuser is an arsonist or if the abuser is a burglar or whatever. the bottom line is they are thinking ONLY of themselves and what THEY want. so it has NOTHING to do with who/what they choose to perpetrate against. and sickness and misfortune are the same way. $h1t happens because that is what $h1t does.
Yes, Brainfixed, I'd agree; they don't care. And in an organization like The Way International, they had/have every manner of pedophile, rapist, batterer, abuser, arsonist, burgler and whatever, allegedly. (gotta add the allegedly, ick).
And indeed the victimizer will often take any victim s/he can get so long as they get their fix of whatever it is they fixate on or need. For anyone victimized by them, I hope it offeres some solace or comfort that they were NOT at fault, they didn't do anything to attract the attack or the abuse.
Stinks of the rape victim that is raped again in court cuz they were wearing something "wrong" doesn't it?
.... all we can worry about is our own selves and not try and figure out why stuff happens the way it does and just try to not be the cause of it happening.
For me in my life, my personality, I have to figure it out; it's who I am. That way I can, I hope, understand why, where, when I found myself there to be available to their rape, abuse, control, emotional battering and hopefully, as I said in the first post "learn something".
And God forbid if I'm ever the cause of it happening to anyone else. But yeah, first myself.
I have to understand things, I just do. It's not always pretty, it's often reliving the shi+, but once I do, it's better and the chances of do overs are rare, if ever.
The Way International certainly messed this topic up for darn near everybody IMO.
Some who warned of circumstantial victims opening the door to the adversary probably did so and effectively warned people away from some sort of mistake if perchance the one speaking had only good intentions. But others doubtlessly were sooo far into Way Ministry abusive practices that they only caused the very suffering they were seeking to cause to be avoided by the one ministered to (so-to-speak).
From my perspective allowing the adversary in from a biblical perspective is doing something that allows self or others to be stolen from, killed, or destroyed. And whether or not one is a believer of the biblical definitions and personas set forth in biblical scripture it seems that all could possibly agree to handle the issue in a matter where ones belief in or disbelief of a "devil" is secondary as to the content and real effect of the conversation.
Whether or not anyone believes in the "devil" all must agree that sometimes bad and destructive things happen to us and they are completely outside of our control. Frankly, when folks who believe in a "devil" persona ignorantly lay the blame at the feet of the victims of these tragedies they go directly to the place of being a destructive false prophet according to their own biblical definitions IMO.
But a secularist may fall into the same folly if perchance they lay the blame of getting raped on the rape victim ignorantly. But at least the hateful secularist may have their views confronted without having their entire worldview challenged.
For the mistaken view of the "believer" of a "devil" who is mistakenly cruel; they may also need to be proven wrong on their opinion of the spiritual realm, which realm by definition is beyong our sense knowledge analysis, and that is no easy thing to be corrected on IMO. Their mistaken belief as concerning the spiritual realm only serves to make their mistaken blame of the victim a much harder thing to correct.
Whether or not anyone believes in a "devil" it is easy to lay the blame at the feet of Wierwille if he drugged and raped women, or if he abused women in his rv, or their homes, or if he abused successive generations of women in one family. Such things are the actions of a monster. If one believes in a devil, how is it possible to trust a man or his ministry when it tells folks of where to see the "devil" and which direction the devil is attacking them from. A secularist would rightly say Wierwille was a monster. A believer in spiritual and biblical beings must according to any sanity left in them (IMO) say Wierwille stole from and destroyed peoples' lives, hence brought the "devil's" devices into their lives.
Martindale lost the presidency of The Way International because of moving the same devilish devices into people's lives. Rosie has lied about and covered up her own knowledge of these devilish devices according to many, many sound reports IMO. The one I'm currently thinking of concerns the report that Rosie went around and made sure to quite Martindale's other victims by a combination of carrot and stick methods.
The carrot was something like, "If you remain quite you will be untouchable here at The Way International."
The stick was something like, "If you speak out we will do everything in our power to destroy your life and reputation." IMO at The Way International such a warning of consequences can be given subtly by example, outrightly with verbal warnings, or summary judgment on people in order to make an example of them, and many GSCers seem to recall many warnings being given of all three of these types.
Most of the former top Way Ministry has lied about and/or remained silent as to the extent of their own involvement in these "devilish" practices". How can they now purport to start splinter groups without a full and public airing of Way Ministry devilishness?
A believer in a "devil" may rightly see them as totally unqualified to teach about the "devil's" methods and attacks.
An unbeliever may rightly conclude they are no better than any other pervert or criminal who refuses to come to terms with their own perverse and/or damaging actions.
Either believer or unbeliever may fairly conclude that to some extent each and every one of them is hypocritical and unaccountable for their own nasty/devilish actions, and they have not resisted or exposed the actions of the ones who did the nasty/devilish deeds.
As a believer in these "spiritual personas" I claim them to be ineffective and even still guilty in not resisting the devil and allowing the "devil's" work to be unhindered and still hidden.
But I completely agree with any secularist who rightly sees Way Ministry leadership is worthy of blame in strictly secular terms.
(edited for the sake of clarity and typos too.)
(added in editing)
If you have a ministry that builds on John 10:10 you'd better be ready to own up to your own st!t.
And as concerning the whole concept of building on the "good" in The Way International. Have you folks even read what God reportedly does to those who do evil in his name? Wouldn't getting the "F" away before the whole thing gets burnt to a crisp make more sense, sheesh, if you claim God's grace according to the scriptures at least try to claim it according to something ACTUALLY RECORDED in the scriptures about how God rewards devilishness that is wrongly committed in HIS name.
And for those that don't believe in God's judgment, how easy is it to see that looking for good things from The Way International is at best ill-advised wishful thinking?
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cheranne
Your granddaughter is right!
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JeffSjo
Yep, gotta know when to iggynore the poopheads
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Twinky
Never heard that joyful snippet.
Yeah, anyway, it's really walking in the steps of Jesus Christ, ennit? He always beat on people who had problems and told them it was all their fault. He never offered to help anyone in need. He never stretched out a hand to help when he could have done. No, he condemned at every opportunity. He even threw the first stone at the woman caught in adultery. And he really got in the faces of Lazarus, Mary and Martha for their lack of believing such that L died.
I wish you could read it in the original.
bleeeaghhh
I think NOT.
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Oakspear
By the time the 90's rolled around, the answer to the question "where did you let the adversary in?" was just a setup for leadership to brand you as spiritually weak, a contaminant in the household, a doorstop letting evil in.
There were many times that I would think about that question, honestly trying to dtermine where I had screwed up only to have my response accusedly thrown back in my face.
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act2
Girl, I don't miss those days at all. Cringing just thinking about that crap.
Sure do appreciate all u do here & other places!!!
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Broken Arrow
Ah! A new retemory!
Is this the same child that when she is being scolded she shakes her fist and says, "This is America!"?
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Shellon
lol no, that's my youngest daughter; she's 14 now.
Yeah, she used to say "this is America, I have rights" when I was scolding her about something.......hahaha, I'd forgotten about that.
----------------------------------------
I've spend much time lately thinking about the standards of The Way International and their one liners that were coined for whatever reason, no reason at all or using The Bible as their excuse and the sheer DAMAGE caused and still rippling in lives.
My daughters and my grand daughter teach me so much more than I ever might them, actually, as I but listen and really hear what they say. My grandpa said "listen to old people and kids, they'll both tell you the truth". So true huh?
I'm blessed, I'm thankful, I'm learning and understanding more and more daily as I deal with this stuff and take it on; painful and no. I'm at a really fantastic place of gleaning from those who truly seek to enrich my life, add to it's emotional well being and consider my value.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mBL8vop4Cb0
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Watered Garden
Deja vue all over again!
Sometimes I wonder if I didn't check my brain at the doorstep along with my "negatives" which weren't allowed to come in to twig and find relief. Meany Poopheads indeed!
WG
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irisheyes
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, is what I would like to say. This surely wasn't just a 90's thing. When I went WOW in the 70's I lost custody of my baby girl because of it. VPW's response? You didn't listen to God! WTF??? Where? When? By going WOW was the answer, it just took me years to see it. Ha. So, I kidnapped my kid and actually got away with it and thought I had done something wonderful for God. And, honestly, God made good where I had made a wrong decision. Doesn't He do that for us, His kids?
Along those lines, if someone falls off a 10 story building is it the adversary who kills him or is it God's law of gravity? A broken heart can kill someone just as easily as a diseased one.
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Shellon
I guess that's my point. If someone falls off a 10 story building, The Way would offer that if s/he was paying attention to God, s/he would have seen the dumb edge of the building. Never mind that they have eyeballs in their heads, right?
The illogic is so much the point too, isn't it?
My argument today is that if someone falls off the building, I have to wonder what Way Leadership told them it was ok to stand so close to that edge.
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Tzaia
God never told me to go WoW, or take the advanced class, or go to corps, or have way people move in with me. Apparently he told a bunch of other people (all of them in the way) all those things, but I never heard from God. In fact, every time I even considered it, a bunch of reasons why none of those things would really work for me, bubbled to the surface even as I was being told to ignore those reasons by people in the way.
Ironically, I was told by several people (in the way) that it wasn't a good idea for me to marry my (now) husband. However, he was delivered to my doorstep just like I asked God to do. That was "our" secret handshake that would let me know that God had sent the person and not just wishful thinking on my part. I figured it wasn't a coincidence, since it happened exactly like that.
People in the way continually questioned my ability to hear from God in my own life, yet never questioned their own ability to hear from God on my behalf.
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irisheyes
There's this little book (64 pp) called "The Will of God" by Lesie D. Weatherhead that speaks of the THREE wills of God: The intentional, circumstantial and ultimate will of God. It's so worth finding, something that makes so friggin much sense, you want to hit yourself over the head when you read it.
Think about this (if you haven't already): "The laws of the universe which are themselves an expression of God's will, were not set aside for Jesus, the beloved son. The laws which govern the hammering in of nails held on the day of crucifixion in just the same way as they do when you nail up a wooden box."
Awesome read.
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irisheyes
How refreshing to actually hear someone say what I thought for so long! To this day I cringe when people say God told them this or that. For all my years in that damned ministry I was horrified that I never got revelation. I even got to the point of wondering if I was even saved. So, just what is it anyway? A smack upside the head or that still small voice? I'm not seriously looking for an answer. I don't doubt it could happen, I just don't think it's an everyday, common occurrence.
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doojable
Does anyone ever wonder why der Victoid needed "all 9 all the time" just to sit on his motorcoach and drink Drambuie?
SIT - drambuie, drambuie, ball, balloon, ball-O, jello drambuie shots
Interpretation - My little children the Lord Gawdawlmighty wants you to make Drambuie jello shots and give them all to me so that he can bless me and keep me all the days of your life.
Prophecy - Thou shalt give me Drambuie in a porcelain cup.
WOK - I know there's Drambuie under your sink.
WOW - The Lawd wants you to give me that Drambuie
Disc of Spirits - If you touch my Drambuie you'll be possessed and born of the wrong seed.
Faith - I BELIEVE in Drambuie
Miracles - Five bottles of Drambuie!
Healing - Ahhhh.... that's the stuff
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Keith
I doubt if they would accept this answer but mine would have been. "I didn't let him, Adam did." Because that is really the only place the real blame lies. we might do something once in a while to make it worse, but that is never the point. The point is that we help each other when we fall. Not by putting the blame on them, but helping them, as Christ would have, to rise above the problem. To feed them when they are hungry, clothe them when they are naked. To comfort them when they are sad and on and on. All of us fail. I've had God sometimes tell me where I messed up for information in the future, but I've almost never had someone else tell me where I've messed up and had them been correct about it.
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JeffSjo
I messed up today.
I thought I was wrong, but that was messed up. :B)
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irisheyes
Clever, girl! Check on my house once in awhile, okay?
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doojable
Sho' 'nuff!
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brainfixed
all my life i wondered why things happened to me and what i did to let them or make them happened to me because of course it had to be because of my believing or because i "left the door open" or "dropped my guard" or wasn't "dealing with the adversary" right or something. but then about a couple of weeks ago i watched that oprah episode where she was interviewing those convicted pedophiles and getting into their heads. i watched it because i have this masochistic need to know why perpetrators do what they do. but anyway, there was a man on there that had messed with his own twelve year old daughter and oprah asked him what he said to his wife to get out of trouble with her when his daughter told on him. he said that he told his wife his daughter was lying to get what she wanted. oprah asked him how that made hiim feel to say his own daughter was a liar. he said, "i wasn't thinking about her or what i was doing to her. i was just trying to cover my own butt." that's when it hit me and hit me hard that all abusers are the same and that all abusers want just one thing and that one thing is they want what they want. that's it. they're not thinking of anything else but what they want. it doesn't matter if the abuser is "just" a verbal abuser or if the abuser is a pedophile or if the abuser is a cult leader or if the abuser is a wife beater or if the abuser is a murderer or if the abuser is a rapist or if the abuser is an arsonist or if the abuser is a burglar or whatever. the bottom line is they are thinking ONLY of themselves and what THEY want. so it has NOTHING to do with who/what they choose to perpetrate against. and sickness and misfortune are the same way. $h1t happens because that is what $h1t does.
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irisheyes
Probably most of us have had abusers in our lives or even been one (Maybe still are?). For me drug abuse surrounded me. Lost two brothers and nearly a son. My take? Yes, I believe there's an adversary, but I think he has this society so tied up that he really has nothing much left to do but sit back and laugh at us. I think there's a couple of accounts where the person needing healing was told to "look at me." Jesus said it and Peter, I think, also. I think the reason for that was so the person could concentrate and not let outside influences well, influence them. I find the word "balance" disturbing. I wish there was a definition I could live with for it. But, as for all you said, all we can worry about is our own selves and not try and figure out why stuff happens the way it does and just try to not be the cause of it happening.
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Shellon
Yes, Brainfixed, I'd agree; they don't care. And in an organization like The Way International, they had/have every manner of pedophile, rapist, batterer, abuser, arsonist, burgler and whatever, allegedly. (gotta add the allegedly, ick).
And indeed the victimizer will often take any victim s/he can get so long as they get their fix of whatever it is they fixate on or need. For anyone victimized by them, I hope it offeres some solace or comfort that they were NOT at fault, they didn't do anything to attract the attack or the abuse.
Stinks of the rape victim that is raped again in court cuz they were wearing something "wrong" doesn't it?
We do not have to own that which is not ours.
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Shellon
For me in my life, my personality, I have to figure it out; it's who I am. That way I can, I hope, understand why, where, when I found myself there to be available to their rape, abuse, control, emotional battering and hopefully, as I said in the first post "learn something".
And God forbid if I'm ever the cause of it happening to anyone else. But yeah, first myself.
I have to understand things, I just do. It's not always pretty, it's often reliving the shi+, but once I do, it's better and the chances of do overs are rare, if ever.
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JeffSjo
The Way International certainly messed this topic up for darn near everybody IMO.
Some who warned of circumstantial victims opening the door to the adversary probably did so and effectively warned people away from some sort of mistake if perchance the one speaking had only good intentions. But others doubtlessly were sooo far into Way Ministry abusive practices that they only caused the very suffering they were seeking to cause to be avoided by the one ministered to (so-to-speak).
From my perspective allowing the adversary in from a biblical perspective is doing something that allows self or others to be stolen from, killed, or destroyed. And whether or not one is a believer of the biblical definitions and personas set forth in biblical scripture it seems that all could possibly agree to handle the issue in a matter where ones belief in or disbelief of a "devil" is secondary as to the content and real effect of the conversation.
Whether or not anyone believes in the "devil" all must agree that sometimes bad and destructive things happen to us and they are completely outside of our control. Frankly, when folks who believe in a "devil" persona ignorantly lay the blame at the feet of the victims of these tragedies they go directly to the place of being a destructive false prophet according to their own biblical definitions IMO.
But a secularist may fall into the same folly if perchance they lay the blame of getting raped on the rape victim ignorantly. But at least the hateful secularist may have their views confronted without having their entire worldview challenged.
For the mistaken view of the "believer" of a "devil" who is mistakenly cruel; they may also need to be proven wrong on their opinion of the spiritual realm, which realm by definition is beyong our sense knowledge analysis, and that is no easy thing to be corrected on IMO. Their mistaken belief as concerning the spiritual realm only serves to make their mistaken blame of the victim a much harder thing to correct.
Whether or not anyone believes in a "devil" it is easy to lay the blame at the feet of Wierwille if he drugged and raped women, or if he abused women in his rv, or their homes, or if he abused successive generations of women in one family. Such things are the actions of a monster. If one believes in a devil, how is it possible to trust a man or his ministry when it tells folks of where to see the "devil" and which direction the devil is attacking them from. A secularist would rightly say Wierwille was a monster. A believer in spiritual and biblical beings must according to any sanity left in them (IMO) say Wierwille stole from and destroyed peoples' lives, hence brought the "devil's" devices into their lives.
Martindale lost the presidency of The Way International because of moving the same devilish devices into people's lives. Rosie has lied about and covered up her own knowledge of these devilish devices according to many, many sound reports IMO. The one I'm currently thinking of concerns the report that Rosie went around and made sure to quite Martindale's other victims by a combination of carrot and stick methods.
The carrot was something like, "If you remain quite you will be untouchable here at The Way International."
The stick was something like, "If you speak out we will do everything in our power to destroy your life and reputation." IMO at The Way International such a warning of consequences can be given subtly by example, outrightly with verbal warnings, or summary judgment on people in order to make an example of them, and many GSCers seem to recall many warnings being given of all three of these types.
Most of the former top Way Ministry has lied about and/or remained silent as to the extent of their own involvement in these "devilish" practices". How can they now purport to start splinter groups without a full and public airing of Way Ministry devilishness?
A believer in a "devil" may rightly see them as totally unqualified to teach about the "devil's" methods and attacks.
An unbeliever may rightly conclude they are no better than any other pervert or criminal who refuses to come to terms with their own perverse and/or damaging actions.
Either believer or unbeliever may fairly conclude that to some extent each and every one of them is hypocritical and unaccountable for their own nasty/devilish actions, and they have not resisted or exposed the actions of the ones who did the nasty/devilish deeds.
As a believer in these "spiritual personas" I claim them to be ineffective and even still guilty in not resisting the devil and allowing the "devil's" work to be unhindered and still hidden.
But I completely agree with any secularist who rightly sees Way Ministry leadership is worthy of blame in strictly secular terms.
(edited for the sake of clarity and typos too.)
(added in editing)
If you have a ministry that builds on John 10:10 you'd better be ready to own up to your own st!t.
And as concerning the whole concept of building on the "good" in The Way International. Have you folks even read what God reportedly does to those who do evil in his name? Wouldn't getting the "F" away before the whole thing gets burnt to a crisp make more sense, sheesh, if you claim God's grace according to the scriptures at least try to claim it according to something ACTUALLY RECORDED in the scriptures about how God rewards devilishness that is wrongly committed in HIS name.
And for those that don't believe in God's judgment, how easy is it to see that looking for good things from The Way International is at best ill-advised wishful thinking?
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