The Great Principle appears in the class syllabus of Interpretation of Tongues and Prophesy (1971), which is a forerunner of the Intermediate Class. This was actually part of the original PFAL class and was known informally as "The Thirteenth Session". It is only conjecture on my part that this originated with B.G.Leonard. I base that guess on the fact that we now know VPW based PFAL very closely on Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class.
The principle is introduced, though not by name, on page 3. This page starts by quoting Philippians 4:13. ("I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." (We touched briefly on this scripture in the "Thus Saith Paul." thread.) The implication being held forth on this particular page is that the "I" is you, as a believer, and that it is referring to you, the believer, operating "all nine" of the manifestations.
On page 9, the principle is stated and a visual depiction of the concept appears. I don't have a scanner so I will describe the depiction for anyone who cares to draw it out. First, there is an inverted triangle on the left. (base up, apex down) Upon close examination, it becomes apparent that this triangle is actually three separate, close bordered, concentric triangles. (One inside another) In this triangle appears the text:
GOD
who is
SPIRIT
Then, there is an arrow drawn from the word SPIRIT to a reciprocating word SPIRIT in a large circle directly to the right and slightly below the triangle. The text appearing in this circle is:
SPIRIT
(arrow pointing down)
SOUL (mind)
(arrow pointing down)
BODY
Next, an arrow points outside the circle (just as the first arrow pointed outside the triangle, into the circle.) to the words:
You
speak out
Something that intrigues me about this visual is that GOD appears inside the triangle portion (a three-sided figure) and that the triangle is actually composed of three closely concentric but separate triangles. This leads me to believe that Wierwille probably "borrowed" this visual depiction from someone who was Trinity oriented. However, I think Wierwille failed to recognize this triangle analogy that the original author had cleverly embedded.
Thanks Waysider and Boshie. That gives me something to go on. To answer your question about who VP got the RHST stuff, much of it was from someone named J.E. Stiles I believe. That's the guy God had him meet when he was trapped by a (ahem) "snowstorm" in Tulsa. VP liked him, he said, because of the way he treated his wife which was bossy and inconsiderate.
The Great Principle appears in the class syllabus of Interpretation of Tongues and Prophesy (1971), which is a forerunner of the Intermediate Class. This was actually part of the original PFAL class and was known informally as "The Thirteenth Session". It is only conjecture on my part that this originated with B.G.Leonard. I base that guess on the fact that we now know VPW based PFAL very closely on Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class.
Thanks Waysider for the great verbal description of "The Great Principle" chart. However, I DO have a scanner! :) I trust this will help others to visualize it better. ("One picture is worth...")
The following was from the Intermediate Class on The Way of Abundance and Power - Section 6, pg 38. (1996 - LCM):
(For best results, right-click on thumbnail and choose "Open Link in New Window".)
Just below the chart is the following:
"God Who is Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the spiritual realm as you act or as your speak out."
Of course this was used to "encourage" people to speak in tongues for the first time, and again and again throughout the rest of the PFAL and WAP series for instruction in "operating the other 8 manifestations".
I believe you guys are on the right track about just where this idea may have come from. It makes sense to me that the “triangle” is trinity-based - and VPW (being an expert “borrower of other people’s works”) would definitely have snapped up such a great idea if it helped him to “peddle more classes” !
On a related note, I do remember one of VP’s quotes:
“Reason holds the same relation to the spirit, as the body does to reason.” (And I wonder just where he got this one from!)
This wording seemed to confuse a lot of the students, but it is basically “The Great Principle” again. I put it this way: “The spirit will give direction to the mind just as the mind gives direction to the body.” (This sort of reminds me of one of TWI's commonly used phrases: “body, soul & spirit”, which they have always had reversed. It should be ordered as written in 1Th 5:23 - "spirit and soul and body".)
And on another note, LCM did his best to emulate the MOG by giving “his take” on this as well in the Advanced Class, where he explained the “flip side” of this principle concerning the devil, who “counterfeited” the idea from God. (And now we know where those two MOG got the notion of "plagiarizing" from!)
The following is from the 1998 Advanced Class by LCM:
Trying to be cute, he called it The Great Prince’s Pull. (Personally, I thought that joke was rather lame !) :o
(For best results, right-click on thumbnail and choose "Open Link in New Window".)
According to his chart, the devil's "manifestations" are what are commonly referred to as "the 7 deadly sins". Speaking of those, he did seem to be rather adept at one of them, namely, "sowing discord among the brethren". Can anyone everyone agree with that?
(Did anyone also notice how the dancing woman is dressed? She is the spitting image of "the devil" in TWI's production of Athletes of the Spirit, in which LCM showed off his newly-acquired ballet skills !)
I do hope this post has helped shed more light on a great topic !
SPEC
:)
PS: If anyone can explain to me how to insert larger pictures in these posts instead of thumbnails, please send me a PM. Thanks!
What strikes me about this is the differentiation between "the spirit (small s)" and the person themselves. Even though TWI was/is not a gnostic religion, this is a type of gnostic belief if I understand things correctly. That is, a person can do whatever they wish with the body and it doesn't matter because the spirit is not affected. I believe this type of thinking opens the door for all types of illicit behavior in "the name of God". I would be interested in hearing others' ideas about this.
Maybe this will assist you Erkjohn…
Certainly you are correct that this type of thinking can lead to rampant misbehavior. But on the reverse side, suppose that the spirit could become tainted by illicit deeds in the flesh. Over time, it could deteriorate into nothing!
Then, what would be so eternal about this gift? What would become of the promise of living forever? What would remain any more as an incentive to act good in order to obtain rewards? These, and many other things would all fall by the wayside – and it would eventually negate all that Christ accomplished for those who would later believe.
The very concept of grace would become a “byword”, and all the good that God intended for His children would be cancelled out ! :(
It almost seems a shame that God had to set things up the way He did in order for His children to enjoy life. But in His eyes it is the best way. Truly the spirit remains intact - perfectly suited for each individual and eternally pure, while the flesh part remains the same as well. This gives people a choice whether to act in either a godly manner or as they always had before.
God knew this potential for evil would still remain, and encourages believers in many places to “renew their minds”, to “avoid evil”, to “do those things which make for peace”, and many others. Whether they will do this or not is up to them – and there are rewards awaiting those who do so.
Understanding this “temptation”, He inspired the following to be written:
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid…
In other words, “If grace (this allowance to still choose evil) is so wonderful, then why not allow it to become as large as possible by continuing to act in a sinful manner?” And then He gives the answer: “ I forbid it.” Grace was not meant to be abused.
By the way, the Greek word for "abound" is pleonazo, meaning to “superabound” or to become “out of bounds”. Knowing sin would yet continue in the believers’ lives, God desires each individual to keep it “reasonable” – because nobody is going to act perfectly all of the time! He then goes on to explain some logic behind it, with the “bottom line” being to “walk in newness of life”:
…How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
As I mentioned before, doing good to obtain rewards should be incentive enough to continue avoiding this temptation to fall into the trap of eventually doing “all types of illicit behavior”, as you had put it.
The first step is laying the foundation – that is, becoming born again and receiving this “incorruptible” spirit:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
After that, a person can do right or wrong by his free will choice and his spirit is still intact, regardless of his actions in the flesh. The following shows what will happen in the future concerning all the “deeds” by those who are born again:
I Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Basically, all of the believers’ works will enter some type of “fire”. The illicit behavior will burn, and the good works will survive the fire and be rewarded.
And again, your logic is entirely correct, Erkjohn. It is possible for one to become born again and then do nothing but evil the rest of his natural life! The following shows no rewards for that person at all – yet even in that event, “he himself shall be saved”. He still has his eternal life because the seed of that life cannot become corrupted.
I Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is God’s wish that people not only become saved, but also to continue living right so they may have rewards in this life, and eternally as well.
It is my guess that these rewards will include positions of honor, special privileges and responsibility in future times to come – things beyond the book of Revelation.
I believe that eventually more will be written, but what little is written about it now is sufficient enough for enjoying life upon this Earth the way it was designed to be.
Remember "The Great Principle" from the Advanced Class? The Great Principle says,
"God's Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifest in the senses realm as you act."
What strikes me about this is the differentiation between "the spirit (small s)" and the person themselves. Even though TWI was/is not a gnostic religion, this is a type of gnostic belief if I understand things correctly. That is, a person can do whatever they wish with the body and it doesn't matter because the spirit is not affected. I believe this type of thinking opens the door for all types of illicit behavior in "the name of God". I would be interested in hearing others' ideas about this.
Also, does anyone know where Wierwille might of come up with this so-called "Great Principle"?
Sounds like a whole bunch of gobbledy-gook. . . .I don't even know what it means. I don't remember if I ever did. . . . but, I am pretty sure I probably nodded in awe of such insight.
I think it all boils down to "Who says that God can't speak directly to a human mind?"
Okay, serious blond moment. . . . I still don't get it? Is it saying God CAN speak directly to the mind or cannot speak directly to the mind? Totally lost. . . no joke. . . . I really don't get it.
Okay, serious blond moment. . . . I still don't get it? Is it saying God CAN speak directly to the mind or cannot speak directly to the mind? Totally lost. . . no joke. . . . I really don't get it.
VP makes an assumptive statement in PFAL that "God can only speak to that which He is which is spirit...." Therefore God only speaks to those in whom the spirit (small s) of God dwells. The Great Principle, which is not taught in PFAL, but was taught in the Advanced Class, says God, who is Spirit (Capital S) teaches (or speaks to) His creation in you which is now your spirit (small s). So no, God cannot speak directly to the human mind. At least that's my take on it.
So, I think another way of looking at it is that God has placed within you a divine receptionist who is holy spirit. When he wants to say something He dials the receptionist who takes copious notes and then calls you. Hopefully you answer and will act accordingly. Now, if you want to talk to God, you tell your divine receptionist who then dials God and if God feels like answereing, He does. Unfortunately God cannot understand English, or any human language for that matter even though He is all-knowing and all powerful. Understand? It's all very simple and fits like a foot in a mouth. If that isn't intimacy with the Father, I don't know what is.
Okay, serious blond moment. . . . I still don't get it? Is it saying God CAN speak directly to the mind or cannot speak directly to the mind? Totally lost. . . no joke. . . . I really don't get it.
"God, being spirit, can only speak to that which He is----spirit."
"God's spirit speaks to your spirit which speaks to your mind."
-----VPW (The Great Principle)
Or, as VPW stated elsewhere:
God cannot speak to you directly (via your spirit, not your mind) unless:
1. You are "born-again"
2. Speak in tongues MUCH on a daily basis.
EXCEPTION:
God may speak to you in a dream or vision if you are so far out of fellowship that you can't receive revelation.
At the AC in 1973, during one of our afternoon twig meetings, I questioned the contradictory nature of this very topic. You know what I was told? "If you would speak in tongues more on a daily basis, stay in fellowship and operate the other two utterance manifestations with greater frequency, God could talk to you and answer that question."
Certainly you are correct that this type of thinking can lead to rampant misbehavior. But on the reverse side, suppose that the spirit could become tainted by illicit deeds in the flesh. Over time, it could deteriorate into nothing!
SPEC
:)
Hi Spec, I enjoyed reading your post. You bring up some good points. I agree with most of what you say namely that Christians are born again with incorruptible seed that will not be stolen away. Certainly there is sin in this world and that affects those who are children of God and that sin will not take away our eternal standing before the Father. I am not coming against the idea of eternal life. What I am bringing into serious question is so-called Great Priniciple and the implications thereof. I personally believe that this teaching of the Great Principle is one of the most damaging doctrines the Way International purported. It relegates God to a principle, and it totally strips intimate relating to the Father. I personally think it makes a rather silly game between God and the believer.
Another implication of the Great Principle is this separation between the spirit and flesh. I believe this is where you have some, shall we say issues, with what I posted.
Without going into too much detail, I would like to say a dangerous teaching of TWI and other "name it and claim it" ministries is it's concept of sin. Does sin sound a little to "archaic", or "silly"? Then let's use the definition of "sin" which is "missing the mark". I believe a Christian is in serious derision if they believe a just God will not hold them accountable for their actions to their fellow man. There are warnings in the Gospels about abusing children. Jesus said it's better that a millstone be hung around someone's neck and have them thrown into a lake than to bring any harm to the little ones. There are warnings in the Epistles about leaders bringing harm and abusing their flock. There are scriptures all over the Bible about the poor oppressing the weak. I could go on and on but I don't want to derail this thread. Especially since I started it.
What's this all going to look like? Darned if I know. I believe that seed is incorruptible, eternal, holy and probably a lot more. But I no longer believe that deeds done with the body are irrelevant in the God's eyes. I'm not talking about hitting your thumb with a hammer and yelling "poopie!" I'm also not saying that anyone is sinless and there isn't Grace. In fact, for a person that wants to discontinue a life of hurting others and themselves, the Kingdome will spend itself unreservedly for them. Again, I don't know all the answers. I just believe God is just, and that God will even the playing field someday. I don't believe we have some free pass given to us by Jesus that allows us to take advantage of our fellow man.
At the AC in 1973, during one of our afternoon twig meetings, I questioned the contradictory nature of this very topic. You know what I was told? "If you would speak in tongues more on a daily basis, stay in fellowship and operate the other two utterance manifestations with greater frequency, God could talk to you and answer that question."
:blink:
In other words, "Don't confuse me with the facts" with a religious twist.
I once asked if man is body, soul, and spirit, and at death the body returns to dust, the soul dies, and the gift (small g) of holy spirit (small h, small s) goes back to God, and if the soul is not eternal, what gets up when you're resurrected? I didn't get an answer. I didn't have the guts to say that to anyone in authority. I sort of intrinsically knew that I would probably get in trouble, especially since I was in the Way Corps at the time. You're not supposed to have questions like that if you're in The Corps. You're supposed to be "fully persuaded".
Notice the contradiction in "the great principle"?
If you are severely "out of fellowship", God can then talk to your mind by virtue of dreams.
Seems like you would have a better chance of hearing from God if you were out of fellowship.
At least that way, He could bypass your spirit and talk directly to your mind.
EXCEPT, "God, being spirit, can only speak to that which He is---spirit."
I thinked they backed up from that a little by the time I took the AC. It's probably because of you!
Anyway, do you remember come about 75 or so a teaching started kind of drifting among the believers that there wasn't even any use in praying to God with your understanding because He couldn't hear you? The only thing he could understand was speaking in tongues. Remember that? That teaching didn't stick around very long and I never heard anyone like Wierwille or Cummins teach it. I think maybe that was one of LCM's teachings when he was Corps Director.
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waysider
The Great Principle appears in the class syllabus of Interpretation of Tongues and Prophesy (1971), which is a forerunner of the Intermediate Class. This was actually part of the original PFAL class and was known informally as "The Thirteenth Session". It is only conjecture on my part that this originated with B.G.Leonard. I base that guess on the fact that we now know VPW based PFAL very closely on Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class.
The principle is introduced, though not by name, on page 3. This page starts by quoting Philippians 4:13. ("I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." (We touched briefly on this scripture in the "Thus Saith Paul." thread.) The implication being held forth on this particular page is that the "I" is you, as a believer, and that it is referring to you, the believer, operating "all nine" of the manifestations.
On page 9, the principle is stated and a visual depiction of the concept appears. I don't have a scanner so I will describe the depiction for anyone who cares to draw it out. First, there is an inverted triangle on the left. (base up, apex down) Upon close examination, it becomes apparent that this triangle is actually three separate, close bordered, concentric triangles. (One inside another) In this triangle appears the text:
GOD
who is
SPIRIT
Then, there is an arrow drawn from the word SPIRIT to a reciprocating word SPIRIT in a large circle directly to the right and slightly below the triangle. The text appearing in this circle is:
SPIRIT
(arrow pointing down)
SOUL (mind)
(arrow pointing down)
BODY
Next, an arrow points outside the circle (just as the first arrow pointed outside the triangle, into the circle.) to the words:
You
speak out
Something that intrigues me about this visual is that GOD appears inside the triangle portion (a three-sided figure) and that the triangle is actually composed of three closely concentric but separate triangles. This leads me to believe that Wierwille probably "borrowed" this visual depiction from someone who was Trinity oriented. However, I think Wierwille failed to recognize this triangle analogy that the original author had cleverly embedded.
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Bolshevik
Thought I saw it somewhere when googling E.w. Kenyon, mary baker eddy, phineas quimby. Maybe not.
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waysider
Well, you could be right. I was just making an educated guess when I said it may have been Leonard
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Bolshevik
you might be right, i dunno
who was it he plaigerized for Rec the HS? Maybe he heard it from more than one source
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Broken Arrow
Thanks Waysider and Boshie. That gives me something to go on. To answer your question about who VP got the RHST stuff, much of it was from someone named J.E. Stiles I believe. That's the guy God had him meet when he was trapped by a (ahem) "snowstorm" in Tulsa. VP liked him, he said, because of the way he treated his wife which was bossy and inconsiderate.
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spectrum49
Thanks Waysider for the great verbal description of "The Great Principle" chart. However, I DO have a scanner! :) I trust this will help others to visualize it better. ("One picture is worth...")
The following was from the Intermediate Class on The Way of Abundance and Power - Section 6, pg 38. (1996 - LCM):
(For best results, right-click on thumbnail and choose "Open Link in New Window".)
Just below the chart is the following:
"God Who is Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the spiritual realm as you act or as your speak out."
Of course this was used to "encourage" people to speak in tongues for the first time, and again and again throughout the rest of the PFAL and WAP series for instruction in "operating the other 8 manifestations".
I believe you guys are on the right track about just where this idea may have come from. It makes sense to me that the “triangle” is trinity-based - and VPW (being an expert “borrower of other people’s works”) would definitely have snapped up such a great idea if it helped him to “peddle more classes” !
On a related note, I do remember one of VP’s quotes:
“Reason holds the same relation to the spirit, as the body does to reason.” (And I wonder just where he got this one from!)
This wording seemed to confuse a lot of the students, but it is basically “The Great Principle” again. I put it this way: “The spirit will give direction to the mind just as the mind gives direction to the body.” (This sort of reminds me of one of TWI's commonly used phrases: “body, soul & spirit”, which they have always had reversed. It should be ordered as written in 1Th 5:23 - "spirit and soul and body".)
And on another note, LCM did his best to emulate the MOG by giving “his take” on this as well in the Advanced Class, where he explained the “flip side” of this principle concerning the devil, who “counterfeited” the idea from God. (And now we know where those two MOG got the notion of "plagiarizing" from!)
The following is from the 1998 Advanced Class by LCM:
Trying to be cute, he called it The Great Prince’s Pull. (Personally, I thought that joke was rather lame !) :o
(For best results, right-click on thumbnail and choose "Open Link in New Window".)
According to his chart, the devil's "manifestations" are what are commonly referred to as "the 7 deadly sins". Speaking of those, he did seem to be rather adept at one of them, namely, "sowing discord among the brethren". Can anyone everyone agree with that?
(Did anyone also notice how the dancing woman is dressed? She is the spitting image of "the devil" in TWI's production of Athletes of the Spirit, in which LCM showed off his newly-acquired ballet skills !)
I do hope this post has helped shed more light on a great topic !
SPEC
:)
PS: If anyone can explain to me how to insert larger pictures in these posts instead of thumbnails, please send me a PM. Thanks!
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Twinky
Does anyone believe this fine Biblical principle (cough) any more?
Did you believe it then?
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
what makes everything great?
because Wierwille said so.
what is a Principle?
what makes something a Principle?
what is the body?
what is the soul?
what is the spirit?
the love that the body has or the love that the soul has or the love that the spirit has
what?
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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spectrum49
Maybe this will assist you Erkjohn…
Certainly you are correct that this type of thinking can lead to rampant misbehavior. But on the reverse side, suppose that the spirit could become tainted by illicit deeds in the flesh. Over time, it could deteriorate into nothing!
Then, what would be so eternal about this gift? What would become of the promise of living forever? What would remain any more as an incentive to act good in order to obtain rewards? These, and many other things would all fall by the wayside – and it would eventually negate all that Christ accomplished for those who would later believe.
The very concept of grace would become a “byword”, and all the good that God intended for His children would be cancelled out ! :(
It almost seems a shame that God had to set things up the way He did in order for His children to enjoy life. But in His eyes it is the best way. Truly the spirit remains intact - perfectly suited for each individual and eternally pure, while the flesh part remains the same as well. This gives people a choice whether to act in either a godly manner or as they always had before.
God knew this potential for evil would still remain, and encourages believers in many places to “renew their minds”, to “avoid evil”, to “do those things which make for peace”, and many others. Whether they will do this or not is up to them – and there are rewards awaiting those who do so.
Understanding this “temptation”, He inspired the following to be written:
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid…
In other words, “If grace (this allowance to still choose evil) is so wonderful, then why not allow it to become as large as possible by continuing to act in a sinful manner?” And then He gives the answer: “ I forbid it.” Grace was not meant to be abused.
By the way, the Greek word for "abound" is pleonazo, meaning to “superabound” or to become “out of bounds”. Knowing sin would yet continue in the believers’ lives, God desires each individual to keep it “reasonable” – because nobody is going to act perfectly all of the time! He then goes on to explain some logic behind it, with the “bottom line” being to “walk in newness of life”:
…How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
As I mentioned before, doing good to obtain rewards should be incentive enough to continue avoiding this temptation to fall into the trap of eventually doing “all types of illicit behavior”, as you had put it.
The first step is laying the foundation – that is, becoming born again and receiving this “incorruptible” spirit:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
After that, a person can do right or wrong by his free will choice and his spirit is still intact, regardless of his actions in the flesh. The following shows what will happen in the future concerning all the “deeds” by those who are born again:
I Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Basically, all of the believers’ works will enter some type of “fire”. The illicit behavior will burn, and the good works will survive the fire and be rewarded.
And again, your logic is entirely correct, Erkjohn. It is possible for one to become born again and then do nothing but evil the rest of his natural life! The following shows no rewards for that person at all – yet even in that event, “he himself shall be saved”. He still has his eternal life because the seed of that life cannot become corrupted.
I Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is God’s wish that people not only become saved, but also to continue living right so they may have rewards in this life, and eternally as well.
It is my guess that these rewards will include positions of honor, special privileges and responsibility in future times to come – things beyond the book of Revelation.
I believe that eventually more will be written, but what little is written about it now is sufficient enough for enjoying life upon this Earth the way it was designed to be.
SPEC
:)
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year2027
God first
thanks SPEC
what is grace?
where it get bigger than hope?
I ask you again what is a Principle?
a Principle of the body, soul, or the spirit.
is it what the bible or God's word?
is there a different?
is a small s getter than a big S?
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
as an artist...the charts and diagrams of principles and dynamics and such
were certainly a big part of what drew me to pfal
…probably most all of us have some of that in common
world history seems full of them...christianity and ancient jewish history, too
pre- and post-twi...but especially post, ive been able to handle and compare any of them
and i can no longer help but assume
that the overwhelming majority of the "word of God" is/was also pictoral
and the modern Bible cannon includes no pictures
...yet refers to them and same things the pictures refer to throughout the texts
this suggests to me that they were created to be understood in light of each other
as with the rest of pfal texts
the charts of pfal seem as “ungrounded” from the start
for the same reasons the textual interpretations are “ungrounded”
as if one cannot avoid/ignore the overwhelming majority of over 2 millenia of christian and jewish art and history
…as well as the overwhelming majority of the rest of world art and history
…and actually resurrect some ultimate historic Way of life and Bible interpretation
that is so far superior to all of the stuff we avoid/ignore combined
that we are justified knocking on doors in nations all over the world and asking people to copy it.
yet this "trumping by dumping" pattern seems quite common
…and not just with the Bible.
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sirguessalot
seems to me vpw may have appropriated it from some christian he read
or from something he included in the advanced class junk table
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geisha779
Sounds like a whole bunch of gobbledy-gook. . . .I don't even know what it means. I don't remember if I ever did. . . . but, I am pretty sure I probably nodded in awe of such insight.
I remember they served kool-aid that night.
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Oakspear
I think it all boils down to "Who says that God can't speak directly to a human mind?"
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geisha779
Okay, serious blond moment. . . . I still don't get it? Is it saying God CAN speak directly to the mind or cannot speak directly to the mind? Totally lost. . . no joke. . . . I really don't get it.
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Broken Arrow
VP makes an assumptive statement in PFAL that "God can only speak to that which He is which is spirit...." Therefore God only speaks to those in whom the spirit (small s) of God dwells. The Great Principle, which is not taught in PFAL, but was taught in the Advanced Class, says God, who is Spirit (Capital S) teaches (or speaks to) His creation in you which is now your spirit (small s). So no, God cannot speak directly to the human mind. At least that's my take on it.
So, I think another way of looking at it is that God has placed within you a divine receptionist who is holy spirit. When he wants to say something He dials the receptionist who takes copious notes and then calls you. Hopefully you answer and will act accordingly. Now, if you want to talk to God, you tell your divine receptionist who then dials God and if God feels like answereing, He does. Unfortunately God cannot understand English, or any human language for that matter even though He is all-knowing and all powerful. Understand? It's all very simple and fits like a foot in a mouth. If that isn't intimacy with the Father, I don't know what is.
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waysider
"God, being spirit, can only speak to that which He is----spirit."
"God's spirit speaks to your spirit which speaks to your mind."
-----VPW (The Great Principle)
Or, as VPW stated elsewhere:
God cannot speak to you directly (via your spirit, not your mind) unless:
1. You are "born-again"
2. Speak in tongues MUCH on a daily basis.
EXCEPTION:
God may speak to you in a dream or vision if you are so far out of fellowship that you can't receive revelation.
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cman
so to talk to god you gotta talk to your spirit
then your spirit talks to god
freakin insane
what if your mind is spirit, as the scriptures point out
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waysider
Also
Notice the contradiction in "the great principle"?
If you are severely "out of fellowship", God can then talk to your mind by virtue of dreams.
Seems like you would have a better chance of hearing from God if you were out of fellowship.
At least that way, He could bypass your spirit and talk directly to your mind.
EXCEPT, "God, being spirit, can only speak to that which He is---spirit."
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
what drug are these people VPW did come this trash own by self
VPW copy it so he did know how to explain it
God has talk me no matter how much i been out fellowship and he talks my Atheism no matter how much they do not believe
cman is right the Great Principle is nothing but VPW fairly tale
open your minds and trow those VPW books
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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waysider
Well said, Roy.
At the AC in 1973, during one of our afternoon twig meetings, I questioned the contradictory nature of this very topic. You know what I was told? "If you would speak in tongues more on a daily basis, stay in fellowship and operate the other two utterance manifestations with greater frequency, God could talk to you and answer that question."
:blink:
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Broken Arrow
Hi Spec, I enjoyed reading your post. You bring up some good points. I agree with most of what you say namely that Christians are born again with incorruptible seed that will not be stolen away. Certainly there is sin in this world and that affects those who are children of God and that sin will not take away our eternal standing before the Father. I am not coming against the idea of eternal life. What I am bringing into serious question is so-called Great Priniciple and the implications thereof. I personally believe that this teaching of the Great Principle is one of the most damaging doctrines the Way International purported. It relegates God to a principle, and it totally strips intimate relating to the Father. I personally think it makes a rather silly game between God and the believer.
Another implication of the Great Principle is this separation between the spirit and flesh. I believe this is where you have some, shall we say issues, with what I posted.
Without going into too much detail, I would like to say a dangerous teaching of TWI and other "name it and claim it" ministries is it's concept of sin. Does sin sound a little to "archaic", or "silly"? Then let's use the definition of "sin" which is "missing the mark". I believe a Christian is in serious derision if they believe a just God will not hold them accountable for their actions to their fellow man. There are warnings in the Gospels about abusing children. Jesus said it's better that a millstone be hung around someone's neck and have them thrown into a lake than to bring any harm to the little ones. There are warnings in the Epistles about leaders bringing harm and abusing their flock. There are scriptures all over the Bible about the poor oppressing the weak. I could go on and on but I don't want to derail this thread. Especially since I started it.
What's this all going to look like? Darned if I know. I believe that seed is incorruptible, eternal, holy and probably a lot more. But I no longer believe that deeds done with the body are irrelevant in the God's eyes. I'm not talking about hitting your thumb with a hammer and yelling "poopie!" I'm also not saying that anyone is sinless and there isn't Grace. In fact, for a person that wants to discontinue a life of hurting others and themselves, the Kingdome will spend itself unreservedly for them. Again, I don't know all the answers. I just believe God is just, and that God will even the playing field someday. I don't believe we have some free pass given to us by Jesus that allows us to take advantage of our fellow man.
Anyway, I hope that's clear.
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Broken Arrow
In other words, "Don't confuse me with the facts" with a religious twist.
I once asked if man is body, soul, and spirit, and at death the body returns to dust, the soul dies, and the gift (small g) of holy spirit (small h, small s) goes back to God, and if the soul is not eternal, what gets up when you're resurrected? I didn't get an answer. I didn't have the guts to say that to anyone in authority. I sort of intrinsically knew that I would probably get in trouble, especially since I was in the Way Corps at the time. You're not supposed to have questions like that if you're in The Corps. You're supposed to be "fully persuaded".
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Broken Arrow
I thinked they backed up from that a little by the time I took the AC. It's probably because of you!
Anyway, do you remember come about 75 or so a teaching started kind of drifting among the believers that there wasn't even any use in praying to God with your understanding because He couldn't hear you? The only thing he could understand was speaking in tongues. Remember that? That teaching didn't stick around very long and I never heard anyone like Wierwille or Cummins teach it. I think maybe that was one of LCM's teachings when he was Corps Director.
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