JL came to Rush City, Mn. to visit with Victor Barnard back before V. Barnard moved River Road Fellowship to Finlayson, Mn. Acording to Barnard, JL offered him a check for $100,000 and told him to build a new church with the money. Barnard reportedly turned this money down.
On one hand, I can't credit myself with too much sense as I was just getting more and more involved with Barnard at the time in a situation where my clear conscience cost me my wife, child, and most everything concrete in my life that I worked toward for years.
But on the other hand, looking back on it I can't credit JL with too much good sense as he reportedly gave Victor Barnard a $100,000 check to build a church with. If Barnard had built a church building in Rush City, Mn. it is all too easy to imagine how many more victims Barnard might have had. And even though JL did a bit in order to expose Wierwille's true personal habits I am tremendously unsatisfied with his overall response as concerning Way Ministry victims.
(added in editing)
Since Barnard turned down JL's offer of $100,000 I can't help but wonder what other toilets he flushed "God's" money down afterwards.
JL came to Rush City, Mn. to visit with Victor Barnard back before V. Barnard moved River Road Fellowship to Finlayson, Mn. Acording to Barnard, JL offered him a check for $100,000 and told him to build a new church with the money. Barnard reportedly turned this money down.
On one hand, I can't credit myself with too much sense as I was just getting more and more involved with Barnard at the time in a situation where my clear conscience cost me my wife, child, and most everything concrete in my life that I worked toward for years.
But on the other hand, looking back on it I can't credit JL with too much good sense as he reportedly gave Victor Barnard a $100,000 check to build a church with. If Barnard had built a church building in Rush City, Mn. it is all too easy to imagine how many more victims Barnard might have had. And even though JL did a bit in order to expose Wierwille's true personal habits I am tremendously unsatisfied with his overall response as concerning Way Ministry victims.
(added in editing)
Since Barnard turned down JL's offer of $100,000 I can't help but wonder what other toilets he flushed "God's" money down afterwards.
Jeff - - - That is (imo) B as in B and S as in S. I was there at the Rush City meeting when JAL was there along with Greg Pharis (the promoter of personal prophecy) meeting there in vic (barnYard) jr's house. If I recollect correct, JAL was on a "recruiting mission" to gain both new folks for CES (ordinary joe's) as well as checking out "new theology" (as evidenced by the presence of Greg Pharis and his personal prophecy teachings).
I'm glad you use the word "reportedly" when you mentioned that check because (at that time) JAL was still soliciting "air travel funds" to get from point A to point B to spread "the Word" across the country according to CES. I doubt seriously that he would have $100,00 dollars expendable cash to just give to some guy in northern Minnesota to start up a new church that had some HUGELY fundamental differences with what he (JAL and CES) held.
I remember Vic Jr. teaching at that same meeting how the Church was actually the bride of Christ (rather than the Jews), and hearing him say he would never back down from that belief. JAL didn't look too pleased when that was being taught, but he didn't contradict or say anything to the detriment of the "teaching". Likewise - - - Greg did a teaching that same weekend on how it was "perfectly acceptable" for any number of folks to be shouting praises/ speaking in tongues/ etc., etc., during a church service all at once (decent and in order?), and JAL seemed to ignore that as well.
Everything I gleaned from that weekend (as pertains to JAL and his presence there) was that he was there to promote CES. He ended up rejecting both vic and greg due to "doctrinal differences" even though he (seemed) to be interested in what was being taught by them at the time. Perhaps that was a smoke screen, eh? Although I will have to say the Personal Prophecy thing took root, even if Greg's idea of the Trinity didn't.
I could be wrong about all this, but I doubt it. If there's proof to the contrary, let's hear it.
If vic jr. told you that (about the check), take that statement to the bank - - - along with all your 3 and 7 dollar bills.
BarYard is a liar/ cheat/ and manipulator. I trust him and his words as far as I can throw him.
I think the thing that saddens me most about this is that I do not trust Victor Barnard or John Lynn to tell the entire truth of this matter any more. My lasting impression of Way Ministry leadership is such that I am no longer surprised if their own fellowship resembles a base example of first and foremost being only concerned about establishing a pecking order. Shortly to be followed by coming up with stories that show themselves in a good light where the TRUTH is amoung the first casualties.
Yeah Dave, that was Barnard's story and it was a topic of discussion for quite some time amoung those of us in River Road Fellowship. And unfortunately as my thread in "My Story" confirms for me there is no shortage of folks in River Road Fellowship who choose to either lie about or remain silent concerning Victor Barnard's actions. I'm betting John Lynn in true Way International fashion recoils from the light of honesty like some kind of B-movie vampire creature too! However John Lynn really is, my impression is based on considerable personal observation of Way International leadership norms, IMO.
Back in those Rush City days there was much more going on than you were privy too Dave. I've come to consider Pharis a false prophet for prophecying of Barnard's apostolic ministry. And Pharis had a big movement in mind and in his prophecies centering around a great work where several of us were pumped up to join in with in colorful terms such as "run to the battle" along with many other encouragements.
I've come to consider the Momentus sessions we went through as their cash cow also. Considering all the dollars Momentus was bring in for them I'm still not at the place where I dismiss Barnard's claims of holding a $100,000 in his hands outright. But then again I've come to recognize Barnard as lieing only when his lips are moving. :o
Either way, to try to bring this back on track....
I give no credibility to John Lynn in his track record of picking out legitimately helpful ministries, friends, or his handling of ministry money. He could change my opinion I suppose, but transparancy, humility, and honesty aren't exactly his long suits IMO.
Jeff - JAL lived by "the can" for most of the time he was involved with CES. While I wouldn't call him poor, I can't imagine that he ever had that kind of money, and I know CES would not hand out that kind of money to anyone, much less to build a church when CES was being operated out of JAL's family room - sun room at the time. Later, CES bought a house converted into an office around 1999-2000 and there was barely enough money to do that.
I don't know how many people ended up taking momentus, but I don't recall seeing a cash flow coming from momentus into CES. I had intimate contact with those records. I did ask JAL one time what was in it for him, because I assumed that someone was receiving some sort of commission, because while momentus was technically "free," there was a great push at the end to donate with a suggested amount starting at $450 (if I'm not mistaken). I never got an answer on that, which was one of the many reasons why I never did momentus. I wouldn't put it past JAL to push momentus because it was an income opportunity for him, but I also know that he really believes that he benefited from it.
I think your Vic told that story to increase his credibility. How many of you actually followed up by asking JAL? Probably no one. I just think it was really convenient that Vic turned down $100,000. Don't you?
Anyway, I don't know your Vic guy, but I do know JAL. He's not a scheming liar kind of guy. He's more the kind of guy who gets sucked into stuff and then uses his influence to suck others into whatever he's involved with.
Jeff - JAL lived by "the can" for most of the time he was involved with CES. While I wouldn't call him poor, I can't imagine that he ever had that kind of money, and I know CES would not hand out that kind of money to anyone, much less to build a church when CES was being operated out of JAL's family room - sun room at the time. Later, CES bought a house converted into an office around 1999-2000 and there was barely enough money to do that.
Now this seems to be solid and specific information, just the kind of discussion and specifics that I enjoy reading here at GSC. I do like hearing how things really were back then because the flow of information in River Road Fellowship concerning The Way International and the rest of the splinters was brutally curtailed to "the spiritual" among us. Which looking back at it seems to actually be those who were most in Barnard's control.
I don't know how many people ended up taking momentus, but I don't recall seeing a cash flow coming from momentus into CES. I had intimate contact with those records. I did ask JAL one time what was in it for him, because I assumed that someone was receiving some sort of commission, because while momentus was technically "free," there was a great push at the end to donate with a suggested amount starting at $450 (if I'm not mistaken). I never got an answer on that, which was one of the many reasons why I never did momentus. I wouldn't put it past JAL to push momentus because it was an income opportunity for him, but I also know that he really believes that he benefited from it.
I do feel it to be unfortunate that the specific information about the amount of cash flow was kept confidential, but that fact is no surprise to me. If nothing else it brings the issue of Barnard's claim of holding a $100,000 check in his hands to a point where absolutely nobody has already established a clear pattern of transparency. In other words, if JL said he didn't hand Victor Barnard the check how would we know who was telling the truth?
I think your Vic told that story to increase his credibility. How many of you actually followed up by asking JAL? Probably no one. I just think it was really convenient that Vic turned down $100,000. Don't you?
Too convenient I guess. It galls me that it seems that one more thing that I took to be the truth is not only unlikely, but may even be just a previously unseen example of just how much of a liar Barnard was.
Anyway, I don't know your Vic guy, but I do know JAL. He's not a scheming liar kind of guy. He's more the kind of guy who gets sucked into stuff and then uses his influence to suck others into whatever he's involved with.
So, let me ask it this way.....
Is John Lynn's new ministry already exhibiting a "sucking sound" when we read his request for donations and supporters?
I doubt if CES made much, if anything from momentus. And whatever they did make ended up costing them in terms of active supporters with open wallets.
JAL has no reason to lie either way. Either he offered the money or he didn't. If he did offer it - no big deal. If he didn't offer it - no big deal. However Barnyard's taking it or not taking it was a big deal. Obviously the guy was trying to make a point.
What Dave is telling you is that JAL wouldn't have offered the money because he didn't go along with Barnyard's theology. I'm saying that even if he did, the likelihood that he had $100k just laying around when he was working out of his family room is almost non-existent. And even if he did like the theology and had $100,000, he wouldn't have offered it to barnyard. JAL doesn't do stuff like that. He's more of a receiving end kind of guy.
He has no qualms asking for money, or letting people do things for him.
This is an interesting topic, but I remember John Lynn and therefore want to add my advice/2 cents
Dear John Lynn, I read your letter and see that you are eager to begin a NEW ministry, a clone if you will, of TWI
I honestly feel this is because you are still addicted to the fan/worship of all the followers, beiong high as on a drug of their adulation and obedience.
I WARN you that to continue the way of TWI is to continue in sin. I am referring specifially to 1) Lording it over Gods Heritage 2) Demanding perfect obedience from others while practicing sin in their own lives 3) Victimizing followers thru financial and sexual exploitation, and more things but I think you get the idea
I ADVISE you to stop trying to be a leader, and be a humble FOLLOWER of Jesus, repay the financial exploitation you perpetrated on your former followers, stop trying to regurgitate the Ways doctrine and spend some humble time correcting all the flawed beliefs/teachings of the Way, much can be learned/corrected via these Forums.
I luv ya John Lynn and am giving the best advice I can for those who have escaped the Way, and their pernicious ways
I scanned as many of the posts here as possible and I though I would add my two cents worth. I knew of John Lynn back in 1974. I was a WOW ambassador in Nashville, TN. So, Robin Gli@@k leaves the WOW field like the second week, one of my two "sisters". She goes back to Indiana where John Lynn was the Limb Leader.
Some of you know some of the details of my walk with The Way International. It's not like I have done a book on it, I just really wasn't where some of you were or even last as long as some of you did. My only real growth, as painful as it was, was in the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program..under Howard Yere@@@n and James Mil@@. My whole thing, really while in The Way was that I loved the family, the household, but I just did not develop a real relationship or understanding of who and what Jesus Christ was/is, really anything. Where I am going with this is this, The Way International, growing as large as it did, really had some holes in it. I have read many stories about sexual abuse, believers messing up other believers marriages, a whole lot of bad, bad things. To me, the fact is that there were/are a lot of Christians around then and now, how many I do not know...what I do feel is that there were/are still these holes going on in the Body of Christ..that Body requires all the parts to stand in order to close up those holes, these gaps that allow more damage than Carter has little liver pills to occur, needs not being met, the real joy that Christianity is supposed to be, the great stuff that God really wants for us, prosperity, health, meaning...
John Lynn is a teacher. That is his job. From my personal experience, Christianity is skilled labor, we each have our specialty and yes we individually can sort of bridge the gap, help people reasonably well outside of our specialty......but its a stretch. John Lynn is no different in the things he can do. John has really helped me. He has never failed to write me back when I send him a letter. I haven't always been all that loving of a dude, have thrown some real sh@@ John's way at times. And yet, he has handled it.
John really loves the Lord Jesus Christ. To me, that was one of those things the Way just did not develop...and there were consequences, dramatic consequences. Personally, right now, I am having the time of my life, I am loving life, being "influenced" by John. John does not lord over my life, my decisions... Yes, John has made some real mistakes in his life, there are some mistakes clearly discussed on here, a divorce from Elizabeth, a marriage, a short marriage to another believer (don't remember her name) and a remarriage to Elizabeth....but so what, big deal...Each of us is alive and kicking, some of us have been around since the seventies, the eighties, the nineties...well folks we are here, we are there, we are in, we are out...what really stays the same, ya, the Word of God. Think about it sometime. I personally challenge anyone to write me and tell me how flipped out they have ever been in their lives (cause I can do them one better) or have not been flipped out, but waning, slowing down in their walk, dis-illusionment, boredom, whatever...geez life goes on for a while and none of us is perfect.
I am learning about walking with God and the Lord Jesus Christ every day. John has only influenced me, it is still my walk. I haven't even contributed to the Living Truth Fellowship and I have been corresponding with John off and on now for six years. So, honestly John is getting rich off of the what 10 -12 - 14 fellowships right now? Sh@@, he works a job, some basic honest labor.
I don't know, I am hearing just a lot of picking at nothing with regard to John Lynn. I will tell you from my experience that my association with John hasn't had the complexity of walking with the Way International...like the tithe crap, the angry, insane ramblings of LCM, VPW getting pedicures, grace includes men of God sleeping with unmarried or married women.
Tell me whats on your mind...maybe I can simplify it for you. The only thing I cannot do is argue the Word of God, discuss sure, but the book says what it says, regardless of what John teaches, what I think, what you think...and that boys and girls is the crux of the whole matter..a spiritual battle.
...I don't know, I am hearing just a lot of picking at nothing with regard to John Lynn. I will tell you from my experience that my association with John hasn't had the complexity of walking with the Way International...like the tithe crap, the angry, insane ramblings of LCM, VPW getting pedicures, grace includes men of God sleeping with unmarried or married women.
Tell me whats on your mind...maybe I can simplify it for you. The only thing I cannot do is argue the Word of God, discuss sure, but the book says what it says, regardless of what John teaches, what I think, what you think...and that boys and girls is the crux of the whole matter..a spiritual battle.
Bless,
michael chudzinski
I love John. I attended his post-TWI home fellowship in Indianapolis for years. He allowed me to teach his fellowship when he was on the road. I was on the editorial staff of Dialogue. John performed our wedding.
I no longer trust John. He teaches demonstrable error, regarding what is actually written in the Word, and refuses to respond to valid criticism. That's what "irresponsible" means. His leadership during the Momentus debacle destroyed marriages, sent people to hospital psych wards and resulted in suicides. He still blames those things on the weakness of the people who suffered, and not on his own foolishness ("foolishness" as in Galatians 3:1, "thoughtlessness").
Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things, because everything that comes out of a person's own heart seems right and clean to that person, whether it really is or not. Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The thing that moves a person to submit the thoughts and intents of his or her heart to the criticism of the Word of God is the fear of the Lord. Wierwille was not afraid of being wrong before God. He just didn't care whether or not he was actually wrong. Wierwille taught us, including John Lynn, that we should not fear the Lord. Wierwille trained us that we do not accept the criticism of the Word. That is the major TWI error that John has not yet addressed.
John Lynn has allowed himself to be deceived by his own heart. I love him as my brother in Christ, but I cannot trust his leadership, or the Biblical accuracy of the things he teaches.
I love John. I attended his post-TWI home fellowship in Indianapolis for years. He allowed me to teach his fellowship when he was on the road. I was on the editorial staff of Dialogue. John performed our wedding.
I no longer trust John. He teaches demonstrable error, regarding what is actually written in the Word, and refuses to respond to valid criticism. That's what "irresponsible" means. His leadership during the Momentus debacle destroyed marriages, sent people to hospital psych wards and resulted in suicides. He still blames those things on the weakness of the people who suffered, and not on his own foolishness ("foolishness" as in Galatians 3:1, "thoughtlessness").
Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things, because everything that comes out of a person's own heart seems right and clean to that person, whether it really is or not. Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The thing that moves a person to submit the thoughts and intents of his or her heart to the criticism of the Word of God is the fear of the Lord. Wierwille was not afraid of being wrong before God. He just didn't care whether or not he was actually wrong. Wierwille taught us, including John Lynn, that we should not fear the Lord. Wierwille trained us that we do not accept the criticism of the Word. That is the major TWI error that John has not yet addressed.
John Lynn has allowed himself to be deceived by his own heart. I love him as my brother in Christ, but I cannot trust his leadership, or the Biblical accuracy of the things he teaches.
Love,
Steve
Steve;
I do admit that that I have very little knowledge about the Momentus..what is it a movement or theology/ I will look it up and reply later. i have no knowledge of the fear the Lord part of your posting. Am I correct in saying that "fear" equals "respect"? that is the definition and usage I remember from VPW. Thanks for the reply, give me a bit to look up Momentus...michael
As for fear, it is NOT believing in reverse, it is NOT sand in the machinery of life, it DOES NOT always encase, enslave and bind. Fear is an emotional response God designed into our hormonal systems. Emotions are chemical signals that move us to do things. Different emotions move us to do different things. Joy moves us to offer praise. Compassion moves us to offer favor. Fear moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking distance. The right relation with the IRS is top have our filings accurate and on time, and our taxes paid up.
The right relation with God is to humbly recognize that He is God and I am not. What He says is right is right, whether the thoughts and intents of my heart agree or not. The opposite of the fear of the Lord is arrogance. That's what Romans 11:20b means when it says, "Be not highminded but fear."
Wierwille dedicated a great portion of PFAL to proving that Romans 11:20b could not possibly be directed to us, because Wierwille revelled in his arrogance, and he taight us to be arrogant also. John Lynn still does not realize how arrogant he is.
I have never been through Momentus. As far as I can gather, though, it had to be similar to that INSANE weekend in FellowLaborers where we were "confined" to the BRC for most of the weekend, psychologically battered and verbally ripped to shreds in front of the whole group. One of the women literally snapped (mentally) and experienced a complete, seemingly permanent personality/identity change. Scary stuff. Maybe you weren't there. I don't know. Sometimes I forget that I was there an extra year and some of this stuff may have happened during that year. That year was very strange, to say the least. Having already graduated from the program, it was like I was looking though some kind of window, observing the "goings on" but not being a part of it. Like the invisible man or something. It was like watching a puppet show from behind the stage. That's the only way I can describe it at this moment.
The things Tocchini subjected us to were not mistakes, as some claim. They were carefully orchestrated, even though we participants were led to believe that it was all spontaneous.
Just for starters, the trainers get together before the training begins and review the information about the people who have signed up, to figure out who is most likely to express vocal resistance to the training techniques. Then, when the training begins, and that person starts to raise objections, the trainers browbeat and harass and humiliate and bullyrag that person without mercy, until he's psychologically beaten into submission. This is all a show, to intimidate everyone else, so that nobody dares raise a voice against the training practices. The exercises were deliberately designed to confuse you. The whole experience was deliberately designed to wipe you out.
BINGO!!
(With us FLO, though, attendance was not voluntary and quitting the sessions was not an option.)
I have never been through Momentus. As far as I can gather, though, it had to be similar to that INSANE weekend in FellowLaborers where we were "confined" to the BRC for most of the weekend, psychologically battered and verbally ripped to shreds in front of the whole group. One of the women literally snapped (mentally) and experienced a complete, seemingly permanent personality/identity change. Scary stuff. Maybe you weren't there. I don't know. Sometimes I forget that I was there an extra year and some of this stuff may have happened during that year. That year was very strange, to say the least. Having already graduated from the program, it was like I was looking though some kind of window, observing the "goings on" but not being a part of it. Like the invisible man or something. It was like watching a puppet show from behind the stage. That's the only way I can describe it at this moment.
Yes Waysider I do. It was a two hour presentation by one of Howie's old sales buddy's, I can get his name, if it would help. I wrote to Howie, oh, like two weeks about it. Back then, I remember another FLO'er saying that he heard Howie say that he never would do that again. Anyway, I wrote to Howie about it, told him everything I remembered, the bad and the good. He agreed with me on every point that I wrote to him about. He also reported that a few of our FLO'er brothers have, for the most part, said there was some benefit to it. The negative point I would point out was that Rick Watk@@@ was confronted and it startled him. The purpose of confronting someone in the audience really wasn't the point of like this exercise, the purpose of it was to influence everybody else, like "I am glad I am not that guy right now"...to like build attention, common experience in the here and now. Anyway it was wrong and Momentus may contain similar exercise, I am still looking. The exercise also was VITALLY wrong in that who would have the balls to just walk away, pack up, go home, and pack a bowl, watch some porn, and live in the basement of their mother's place...So, wrong in the first place, wrong in that we trusted Howie and didn't confront him on that score, right then and there. For me, yes,I got some bit of stuff about attention to detail, however that is about all, I have thought more about Rick turning white and pale, you know, Rick, albeit on the religious side, his behavior, didn't ask, expect, or deserve it, he really wasn't giving up a year of his life, like with no sex, a break in his career, serving the Lord Jesus Christ to have someone question why he was in the FLO program..
Yes, my rant, I did a couple of bong hits an hour ago...
Bless,
Michael Chudzinski
Oh, Steve, give me a few days to write back to you here, I am in the middle of helping someone move.
Most of all, what bugs me about that part of the weekend is not so much how I, personally, was shredded, but, how I had to sit there and watch the people I cared about being shredded. I'll tell you, I wanted to get out of my chair, walk out the door and keep on going. But, it was like I was glued to the chair or something. None of the FLO knew where the whole thing was going or if it was really right or wrong at the moment it was happening. (Retrospect is a byotch, ya know?) Plus, where was I gonna go? Out there in the middle of Podunk, U.S.A., a car with "Maypop" tires, 1/2 tank of gas and about a buck and a quarter to my name. Couldn't really go back home. It's a real feeling of helplessness. So, what were the options, besides trying to ride it out?
And here's the thing. This was all BEFORE Momentus. So, it's not like nobody knew how volatile this sort of thing could be. They went into Momentus, KNOWING what this kind of thing could produce. I can't understand that.
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doojable
It sounds like JAL is making a commercial: "Help! I'm talking and I can't shut up!"
Shellon
oh yeah, and...... I, too, know John and this is still a fantastic statement
Ham
I dunno. Maybe a motorcoach that would need to be pushed to go down the highway..
On the other hand, maybe even that wouldn't be a good idea. The core group of his *supporters* would probably be the ones doing the pushing..
<_<
And a few questions.
Have they released a "what we believe" statement yet? Or merely copied one off of stiffi?
What about personal *prophecy(?)*.. momentus.. will jl fill top positions in da new organization with momentus casualties?
Will he still promote the throw you off the lifeboat experience to the *mature* (cough) christian who can "handle it"?
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JeffSjo
JL came to Rush City, Mn. to visit with Victor Barnard back before V. Barnard moved River Road Fellowship to Finlayson, Mn. Acording to Barnard, JL offered him a check for $100,000 and told him to build a new church with the money. Barnard reportedly turned this money down.
On one hand, I can't credit myself with too much sense as I was just getting more and more involved with Barnard at the time in a situation where my clear conscience cost me my wife, child, and most everything concrete in my life that I worked toward for years.
But on the other hand, looking back on it I can't credit JL with too much good sense as he reportedly gave Victor Barnard a $100,000 check to build a church with. If Barnard had built a church building in Rush City, Mn. it is all too easy to imagine how many more victims Barnard might have had. And even though JL did a bit in order to expose Wierwille's true personal habits I am tremendously unsatisfied with his overall response as concerning Way Ministry victims.
(added in editing)
Since Barnard turned down JL's offer of $100,000 I can't help but wonder what other toilets he flushed "God's" money down afterwards.
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dmiller
Jeff - - - That is (imo) B as in B and S as in S. I was there at the Rush City meeting when JAL was there along with Greg Pharis (the promoter of personal prophecy) meeting there in vic (barnYard) jr's house. If I recollect correct, JAL was on a "recruiting mission" to gain both new folks for CES (ordinary joe's) as well as checking out "new theology" (as evidenced by the presence of Greg Pharis and his personal prophecy teachings).
I'm glad you use the word "reportedly" when you mentioned that check because (at that time) JAL was still soliciting "air travel funds" to get from point A to point B to spread "the Word" across the country according to CES. I doubt seriously that he would have $100,00 dollars expendable cash to just give to some guy in northern Minnesota to start up a new church that had some HUGELY fundamental differences with what he (JAL and CES) held.
I remember Vic Jr. teaching at that same meeting how the Church was actually the bride of Christ (rather than the Jews), and hearing him say he would never back down from that belief. JAL didn't look too pleased when that was being taught, but he didn't contradict or say anything to the detriment of the "teaching". Likewise - - - Greg did a teaching that same weekend on how it was "perfectly acceptable" for any number of folks to be shouting praises/ speaking in tongues/ etc., etc., during a church service all at once (decent and in order?), and JAL seemed to ignore that as well.
Everything I gleaned from that weekend (as pertains to JAL and his presence there) was that he was there to promote CES. He ended up rejecting both vic and greg due to "doctrinal differences" even though he (seemed) to be interested in what was being taught by them at the time. Perhaps that was a smoke screen, eh? Although I will have to say the Personal Prophecy thing took root, even if Greg's idea of the Trinity didn't.
I could be wrong about all this, but I doubt it. If there's proof to the contrary, let's hear it.
If vic jr. told you that (about the check), take that statement to the bank - - - along with all your 3 and 7 dollar bills.
BarYard is a liar/ cheat/ and manipulator. I trust him and his words as far as I can throw him.
And yes - - - You can quote me on that.
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JeffSjo
I think the thing that saddens me most about this is that I do not trust Victor Barnard or John Lynn to tell the entire truth of this matter any more. My lasting impression of Way Ministry leadership is such that I am no longer surprised if their own fellowship resembles a base example of first and foremost being only concerned about establishing a pecking order. Shortly to be followed by coming up with stories that show themselves in a good light where the TRUTH is amoung the first casualties.
Yeah Dave, that was Barnard's story and it was a topic of discussion for quite some time amoung those of us in River Road Fellowship. And unfortunately as my thread in "My Story" confirms for me there is no shortage of folks in River Road Fellowship who choose to either lie about or remain silent concerning Victor Barnard's actions. I'm betting John Lynn in true Way International fashion recoils from the light of honesty like some kind of B-movie vampire creature too! However John Lynn really is, my impression is based on considerable personal observation of Way International leadership norms, IMO.
Back in those Rush City days there was much more going on than you were privy too Dave. I've come to consider Pharis a false prophet for prophecying of Barnard's apostolic ministry. And Pharis had a big movement in mind and in his prophecies centering around a great work where several of us were pumped up to join in with in colorful terms such as "run to the battle" along with many other encouragements.
I've come to consider the Momentus sessions we went through as their cash cow also. Considering all the dollars Momentus was bring in for them I'm still not at the place where I dismiss Barnard's claims of holding a $100,000 in his hands outright. But then again I've come to recognize Barnard as lieing only when his lips are moving. :o
Either way, to try to bring this back on track....
I give no credibility to John Lynn in his track record of picking out legitimately helpful ministries, friends, or his handling of ministry money. He could change my opinion I suppose, but transparancy, humility, and honesty aren't exactly his long suits IMO.
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Tzaia
Jeff - JAL lived by "the can" for most of the time he was involved with CES. While I wouldn't call him poor, I can't imagine that he ever had that kind of money, and I know CES would not hand out that kind of money to anyone, much less to build a church when CES was being operated out of JAL's family room - sun room at the time. Later, CES bought a house converted into an office around 1999-2000 and there was barely enough money to do that.
I don't know how many people ended up taking momentus, but I don't recall seeing a cash flow coming from momentus into CES. I had intimate contact with those records. I did ask JAL one time what was in it for him, because I assumed that someone was receiving some sort of commission, because while momentus was technically "free," there was a great push at the end to donate with a suggested amount starting at $450 (if I'm not mistaken). I never got an answer on that, which was one of the many reasons why I never did momentus. I wouldn't put it past JAL to push momentus because it was an income opportunity for him, but I also know that he really believes that he benefited from it.
I think your Vic told that story to increase his credibility. How many of you actually followed up by asking JAL? Probably no one. I just think it was really convenient that Vic turned down $100,000. Don't you?
Anyway, I don't know your Vic guy, but I do know JAL. He's not a scheming liar kind of guy. He's more the kind of guy who gets sucked into stuff and then uses his influence to suck others into whatever he's involved with.
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JeffSjo
Now this seems to be solid and specific information, just the kind of discussion and specifics that I enjoy reading here at GSC. I do like hearing how things really were back then because the flow of information in River Road Fellowship concerning The Way International and the rest of the splinters was brutally curtailed to "the spiritual" among us. Which looking back at it seems to actually be those who were most in Barnard's control.
I do feel it to be unfortunate that the specific information about the amount of cash flow was kept confidential, but that fact is no surprise to me. If nothing else it brings the issue of Barnard's claim of holding a $100,000 check in his hands to a point where absolutely nobody has already established a clear pattern of transparency. In other words, if JL said he didn't hand Victor Barnard the check how would we know who was telling the truth?
Too convenient I guess. It galls me that it seems that one more thing that I took to be the truth is not only unlikely, but may even be just a previously unseen example of just how much of a liar Barnard was.
So, let me ask it this way.....
Is John Lynn's new ministry already exhibiting a "sucking sound" when we read his request for donations and supporters?
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Tzaia
I doubt if CES made much, if anything from momentus. And whatever they did make ended up costing them in terms of active supporters with open wallets.
JAL has no reason to lie either way. Either he offered the money or he didn't. If he did offer it - no big deal. If he didn't offer it - no big deal. However Barnyard's taking it or not taking it was a big deal. Obviously the guy was trying to make a point.
What Dave is telling you is that JAL wouldn't have offered the money because he didn't go along with Barnyard's theology. I'm saying that even if he did, the likelihood that he had $100k just laying around when he was working out of his family room is almost non-existent. And even if he did like the theology and had $100,000, he wouldn't have offered it to barnyard. JAL doesn't do stuff like that. He's more of a receiving end kind of guy.
He has no qualms asking for money, or letting people do things for him.
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mstar1
What a concept----but I wont be holding my breath anytime soon
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year2027
God first
thanks mstar1
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Ham
So.. does anyone know- did jl ever end up with the donation of the motorcoach of his dreams?
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TrustAndObey
No, instead he's been reduced to bumming plane tickets until that motorcoach with red drapes falls from the sky.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
proably driving a tricycle or skateboarding
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Ham
Why can't he just "believe gawd" and hitch-hike to "lead" like the rest of the plebs?
Just a thought..
donate ten bucks so he won't get busted for vagrancy anywhere along the way..
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Steveo
This is an interesting topic, but I remember John Lynn and therefore want to add my advice/2 cents
Dear John Lynn, I read your letter and see that you are eager to begin a NEW ministry, a clone if you will, of TWI
I honestly feel this is because you are still addicted to the fan/worship of all the followers, beiong high as on a drug of their adulation and obedience.
I WARN you that to continue the way of TWI is to continue in sin. I am referring specifially to 1) Lording it over Gods Heritage 2) Demanding perfect obedience from others while practicing sin in their own lives 3) Victimizing followers thru financial and sexual exploitation, and more things but I think you get the idea
I ADVISE you to stop trying to be a leader, and be a humble FOLLOWER of Jesus, repay the financial exploitation you perpetrated on your former followers, stop trying to regurgitate the Ways doctrine and spend some humble time correcting all the flawed beliefs/teachings of the Way, much can be learned/corrected via these Forums.
I luv ya John Lynn and am giving the best advice I can for those who have escaped the Way, and their pernicious ways
Steveo
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Goey
Moved to correct thread
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mchud11
hey guys and girls;
I scanned as many of the posts here as possible and I though I would add my two cents worth. I knew of John Lynn back in 1974. I was a WOW ambassador in Nashville, TN. So, Robin Gli@@k leaves the WOW field like the second week, one of my two "sisters". She goes back to Indiana where John Lynn was the Limb Leader.
Some of you know some of the details of my walk with The Way International. It's not like I have done a book on it, I just really wasn't where some of you were or even last as long as some of you did. My only real growth, as painful as it was, was in the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program..under Howard Yere@@@n and James Mil@@. My whole thing, really while in The Way was that I loved the family, the household, but I just did not develop a real relationship or understanding of who and what Jesus Christ was/is, really anything. Where I am going with this is this, The Way International, growing as large as it did, really had some holes in it. I have read many stories about sexual abuse, believers messing up other believers marriages, a whole lot of bad, bad things. To me, the fact is that there were/are a lot of Christians around then and now, how many I do not know...what I do feel is that there were/are still these holes going on in the Body of Christ..that Body requires all the parts to stand in order to close up those holes, these gaps that allow more damage than Carter has little liver pills to occur, needs not being met, the real joy that Christianity is supposed to be, the great stuff that God really wants for us, prosperity, health, meaning...
John Lynn is a teacher. That is his job. From my personal experience, Christianity is skilled labor, we each have our specialty and yes we individually can sort of bridge the gap, help people reasonably well outside of our specialty......but its a stretch. John Lynn is no different in the things he can do. John has really helped me. He has never failed to write me back when I send him a letter. I haven't always been all that loving of a dude, have thrown some real sh@@ John's way at times. And yet, he has handled it.
John really loves the Lord Jesus Christ. To me, that was one of those things the Way just did not develop...and there were consequences, dramatic consequences. Personally, right now, I am having the time of my life, I am loving life, being "influenced" by John. John does not lord over my life, my decisions... Yes, John has made some real mistakes in his life, there are some mistakes clearly discussed on here, a divorce from Elizabeth, a marriage, a short marriage to another believer (don't remember her name) and a remarriage to Elizabeth....but so what, big deal...Each of us is alive and kicking, some of us have been around since the seventies, the eighties, the nineties...well folks we are here, we are there, we are in, we are out...what really stays the same, ya, the Word of God. Think about it sometime. I personally challenge anyone to write me and tell me how flipped out they have ever been in their lives (cause I can do them one better) or have not been flipped out, but waning, slowing down in their walk, dis-illusionment, boredom, whatever...geez life goes on for a while and none of us is perfect.
I am learning about walking with God and the Lord Jesus Christ every day. John has only influenced me, it is still my walk. I haven't even contributed to the Living Truth Fellowship and I have been corresponding with John off and on now for six years. So, honestly John is getting rich off of the what 10 -12 - 14 fellowships right now? Sh@@, he works a job, some basic honest labor.
I don't know, I am hearing just a lot of picking at nothing with regard to John Lynn. I will tell you from my experience that my association with John hasn't had the complexity of walking with the Way International...like the tithe crap, the angry, insane ramblings of LCM, VPW getting pedicures, grace includes men of God sleeping with unmarried or married women.
Tell me whats on your mind...maybe I can simplify it for you. The only thing I cannot do is argue the Word of God, discuss sure, but the book says what it says, regardless of what John teaches, what I think, what you think...and that boys and girls is the crux of the whole matter..a spiritual battle.
Bless,
michael chudzinski
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Steve Lortz
I love John. I attended his post-TWI home fellowship in Indianapolis for years. He allowed me to teach his fellowship when he was on the road. I was on the editorial staff of Dialogue. John performed our wedding.
I no longer trust John. He teaches demonstrable error, regarding what is actually written in the Word, and refuses to respond to valid criticism. That's what "irresponsible" means. His leadership during the Momentus debacle destroyed marriages, sent people to hospital psych wards and resulted in suicides. He still blames those things on the weakness of the people who suffered, and not on his own foolishness ("foolishness" as in Galatians 3:1, "thoughtlessness").
Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things, because everything that comes out of a person's own heart seems right and clean to that person, whether it really is or not. Hebrews 4:12 says that the Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The thing that moves a person to submit the thoughts and intents of his or her heart to the criticism of the Word of God is the fear of the Lord. Wierwille was not afraid of being wrong before God. He just didn't care whether or not he was actually wrong. Wierwille taught us, including John Lynn, that we should not fear the Lord. Wierwille trained us that we do not accept the criticism of the Word. That is the major TWI error that John has not yet addressed.
John Lynn has allowed himself to be deceived by his own heart. I love him as my brother in Christ, but I cannot trust his leadership, or the Biblical accuracy of the things he teaches.
Love,
Steve
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mchud11
Steve;
I do admit that that I have very little knowledge about the Momentus..what is it a movement or theology/ I will look it up and reply later. i have no knowledge of the fear the Lord part of your posting. Am I correct in saying that "fear" equals "respect"? that is the definition and usage I remember from VPW. Thanks for the reply, give me a bit to look up Momentus...michael
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Steve Lortz
Here's some info about Momentus:
http://ex-ces.faithweb.com/lortzmom.htm
As for fear, it is NOT believing in reverse, it is NOT sand in the machinery of life, it DOES NOT always encase, enslave and bind. Fear is an emotional response God designed into our hormonal systems. Emotions are chemical signals that move us to do things. Different emotions move us to do different things. Joy moves us to offer praise. Compassion moves us to offer favor. Fear moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking distance. The right relation with the IRS is top have our filings accurate and on time, and our taxes paid up.
The right relation with God is to humbly recognize that He is God and I am not. What He says is right is right, whether the thoughts and intents of my heart agree or not. The opposite of the fear of the Lord is arrogance. That's what Romans 11:20b means when it says, "Be not highminded but fear."
Wierwille dedicated a great portion of PFAL to proving that Romans 11:20b could not possibly be directed to us, because Wierwille revelled in his arrogance, and he taight us to be arrogant also. John Lynn still does not realize how arrogant he is.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
Michael
I have never been through Momentus. As far as I can gather, though, it had to be similar to that INSANE weekend in FellowLaborers where we were "confined" to the BRC for most of the weekend, psychologically battered and verbally ripped to shreds in front of the whole group. One of the women literally snapped (mentally) and experienced a complete, seemingly permanent personality/identity change. Scary stuff. Maybe you weren't there. I don't know. Sometimes I forget that I was there an extra year and some of this stuff may have happened during that year. That year was very strange, to say the least. Having already graduated from the program, it was like I was looking though some kind of window, observing the "goings on" but not being a part of it. Like the invisible man or something. It was like watching a puppet show from behind the stage. That's the only way I can describe it at this moment.
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Steve Lortz
You picked the right word, waysider... INSANE! (which, btw, means "unclean")
Love,
Steve
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waysider
Steve said:
The things Tocchini subjected us to were not mistakes, as some claim. They were carefully orchestrated, even though we participants were led to believe that it was all spontaneous.
Just for starters, the trainers get together before the training begins and review the information about the people who have signed up, to figure out who is most likely to express vocal resistance to the training techniques. Then, when the training begins, and that person starts to raise objections, the trainers browbeat and harass and humiliate and bullyrag that person without mercy, until he's psychologically beaten into submission. This is all a show, to intimidate everyone else, so that nobody dares raise a voice against the training practices. The exercises were deliberately designed to confuse you. The whole experience was deliberately designed to wipe you out.
BINGO!!
(With us FLO, though, attendance was not voluntary and quitting the sessions was not an option.)
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mchud11
Yes Waysider I do. It was a two hour presentation by one of Howie's old sales buddy's, I can get his name, if it would help. I wrote to Howie, oh, like two weeks about it. Back then, I remember another FLO'er saying that he heard Howie say that he never would do that again. Anyway, I wrote to Howie about it, told him everything I remembered, the bad and the good. He agreed with me on every point that I wrote to him about. He also reported that a few of our FLO'er brothers have, for the most part, said there was some benefit to it. The negative point I would point out was that Rick Watk@@@ was confronted and it startled him. The purpose of confronting someone in the audience really wasn't the point of like this exercise, the purpose of it was to influence everybody else, like "I am glad I am not that guy right now"...to like build attention, common experience in the here and now. Anyway it was wrong and Momentus may contain similar exercise, I am still looking. The exercise also was VITALLY wrong in that who would have the balls to just walk away, pack up, go home, and pack a bowl, watch some porn, and live in the basement of their mother's place...So, wrong in the first place, wrong in that we trusted Howie and didn't confront him on that score, right then and there. For me, yes,I got some bit of stuff about attention to detail, however that is about all, I have thought more about Rick turning white and pale, you know, Rick, albeit on the religious side, his behavior, didn't ask, expect, or deserve it, he really wasn't giving up a year of his life, like with no sex, a break in his career, serving the Lord Jesus Christ to have someone question why he was in the FLO program..
Yes, my rant, I did a couple of bong hits an hour ago...
Bless,
Michael Chudzinski
Oh, Steve, give me a few days to write back to you here, I am in the middle of helping someone move.
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waysider
Most of all, what bugs me about that part of the weekend is not so much how I, personally, was shredded, but, how I had to sit there and watch the people I cared about being shredded. I'll tell you, I wanted to get out of my chair, walk out the door and keep on going. But, it was like I was glued to the chair or something. None of the FLO knew where the whole thing was going or if it was really right or wrong at the moment it was happening. (Retrospect is a byotch, ya know?) Plus, where was I gonna go? Out there in the middle of Podunk, U.S.A., a car with "Maypop" tires, 1/2 tank of gas and about a buck and a quarter to my name. Couldn't really go back home. It's a real feeling of helplessness. So, what were the options, besides trying to ride it out?
And here's the thing. This was all BEFORE Momentus. So, it's not like nobody knew how volatile this sort of thing could be. They went into Momentus, KNOWING what this kind of thing could produce. I can't understand that.
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