The Living Truth Fellowship

[mchud11]

Here's some info about Momentus:

http://ex-ces.faithweb.com/lortzmom.htm

As for fear, it is NOT believing in reverse, it is NOT sand in the machinery of life, it DOES NOT always encase, enslave and bind. Fear is an emotional response God designed into our hormonal systems. Emotions are chemical signals that move us to do things. Different emotions move us to do different things. Joy moves us to offer praise. Compassion moves us to offer favor. Fear moves us to get into right relation with the object of the fear. The right relation with a rattlesnake is outside of striking distance. The right relation with the IRS is top have our filings accurate and on time, and our taxes paid up.

The right relation with God is to humbly recognize that He is God and I am not. What He says is right is right, whether the thoughts and intents of my heart agree or not. The opposite of the fear of the Lord is arrogance. That's what Romans 11:20b means when it says, "Be not highminded but fear."

Wierwille dedicated a great portion of PFAL to proving that Romans 11:20b could not possibly be directed to us, because Wierwille revelled in his arrogance, and he taight us to be arrogant also. John Lynn still does not realize how arrogant he is.

Love,

Steve

Steve;

Ok, dude, or Mr. Dude - LOL...I read over the link, not every word..enough to get the sum and substance of it. First, thanks for speaking your mind. Waysider is a great guy, honest..and I also appreciate him putting in his thoughts. Momentus does appear to be quite a few things, but I do have my time constraints, so I will just discuss one thing.

Artificial counseling.

Real, genuine counseling, like the kind I am reading about now (from Henry Cloud/John Townsend's "How People Grow)...involves techniques Jesus Christ used, like the spectrum of "active listening to confrontation", but when say a trainer (I am merely picking a word that feels to me to be descriptive of the Momentus thing) gets out of someone, for example, that they feel their commitment is weak or could be improved upon..and then the Trainer confronts the trainee on commitment, Yes I would say that is dead wrong. I mean the only benefit I see to that is that the Trainee has the opportunity to react in a way that might even involve grabbing his own chair and going to town on the Trainer's head with it. After all, fair is fair. So, Momentus does sound like a no-brainer to me.

Had Waysider not posted , I might not have understood in my gut what was being talked about. I did look on the web link that the sponsoring ministry of Momentus has, as well. So, bottom line, I feel better educated than when the subject first came up.

I haven't ever talked to anyone about Momentus, so now it appears I have something to work with, if and when it ever comes up again. Personally, I am like you, Steve, I think we both like to take a stand on things we believe in out heart.

Back to your posting..this whole emotion, thoughts, actions discussion is a very large subject matter. So, I will just feed back to you about what you have written above. I am of the belief that the Word says we have freedom of will (another big subject). And I belief that emotions CAN result from events, but self-control can minimize what our emotions bring to the table. Actions do follow our thoughts, like the big picture being "what we think about all day". We are like minded on the opposite of fear (respect) is arrogance..that is IF you are talking about a "mental event", IF you are talking about fear as purely an emotional thing, well I am not so sure...I would have to agree to disagree at the moment, as in I have never really thought about that, read anything in the Word yet that supports or negates that. The right relation to God, humbly recognizing that He is who He is and I am who I am, Oh, absolutely. Last, yes, I agree that fear, compassion, the emotions do motivate us, I would add one more thing..our 5 senses motivate us and our past experiences motivate us...Yet here is the thing..all of those are hit or miss, without knowledge of the Word, be it the written Word or revelation, applied in practice..less than good results can and do come about.

This whole discussion is very interesting, real man to man stuff. I read this book, oh, some time ago about the "Sin Of Adam". The author asserts that the sin of Adam was complacency, sitting right there with Eve and not acting, not speaking...like submissive. That ain't cool in my book. Us men were formed to take control, speak truth, bring chaos into orderliness. In short, a lot of authority on this ol' green earth.

bless,

michael

[Ham]

It doesn't look like Dr. John Townsend was the same character in way history..

much younger, different color of hair..

momentus is a little "nothing" seminar. Try going to grad school..

[mchud11]

It doesn't look like Dr. John Townsend was the same character in way history..

much younger, different color of hair..

momentus is a little "nothing" seminar. Try going to grad school..

thanks Ham,

I am still researching. One Way leader has said "broke Drs. heart", one says "wonderful", one says "experiential model"...so I am still researching, a book "Us" is on the way. I call em like I see em.

michael

[Steve Lortz]

God designed TWO... COUNT 'EM... TWO... communication systems into the body. One is the nervous system which sends signals by means of electrical discharges, the other is the hormonal system which sends signals by means of chemical messengers. Nervous system... thoughts. Hormonal system... feelings. They are NOT contrary. They depend on each other. Just mess around with your seratonin and you'll find out what I mean.

The debate between Spock and McCoy is bogus. Logic (which should actually be "reason" since logic by itself can be very, very wrong if not based on sound judgment) is like the steering wheel, and feelings are like the gas pedal. If you stomp on the gas pedal without steering, you're gonna wind up in trouble, but you can turn that steering wheel all day long, if you don't touch the gas pedal, you ain't gonna go nowhere.

The boys at CES seemed to attach great importance to the "logic" of their positions, but it was RATIONALIZATION that Wierwille taught them, and they never did figure out the difference.

The Bible never tells us to be logical. It DOES exhort us to exercise juggment as a matter of habit (Philippians 1:9, Hebrews 5:11-14). Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser got their judgment whacked (Psalm 36:1-4) because they believed that "the fear of the Lord" is like the respect we pay to an aged uncle, whom we are no longer expected to obey.

Love,

Steve

Edited July 28, 2011 by Steve Lortz

[mchud11]

God designed TWO... COUNT 'EM... TWO... communication systems into the body. One is the nervous system which sends signals by means of electrical discharges, the other is the hormonal system which sends signals by means of chemical messengers. Nervous system... thoughts. Hormonal system... feelings. They are NOT contrary. They depend on each other. Just mess around with your seratonin and you'll find out what I mean.

The debate between Spock and McCoy is bogus. Logic (which should actually be "reason" since logic by itself can be very, very wrong if not based on sound judgment) is like the steering wheel, and feelings are like the gas pedal. If you stomp on the gas pedal without steering, you're gonna wind up in trouble, but you can turn that steering wheel all day long, if you don't touch the gas pedal, you ain't gonna go nowhere.

The boys at CES seemed to attach great importance to the "logic" of their positions, but it was RATIONALIZATION that Wierwille taught them, and they never did figure out the difference.

The Bible never tells us to be logical. It DOES exhort us to exercise juggment as a matter of habit (Philippians 1:9, Hebrews 5:11-14). Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser got their judgment whacked (Psalm 36:1-4) because they believed that "the fear of the Lord" is like the respect we pay to an aged uncle, whom we are no longer expected to obey.

Love,

Steve

I read it Steve. I will keep it in mind, but not hide it in my heart...cause I got balls.

michael

[socks]

Dan Tochini's "Momentus" and other hot air propositions are a load of badly packed sputum delivered by a smiley faced lung whose mental interior is coated with the black tar of years of smoke.

He's reinvented his spiel over and over, now into corporate-speak-personal-trainer-success blather. His intellectual visage moderately resembles a an undernourished possum's private parts wrapped in a condom sheet cake frosted with you-don't-wanna-know.

If he would stop using the word "Christian" I wouldn't mind, but since day 1 in Sonoma County and then fanning out across the land, where now-L.A. I think - he's been on this mission to help others by bastardizing the message of Jesus Christ - where'd it come from and what qualifies his iluminations of grandeur to be worth cash money - is a good question.

He, Loynn, Greaser - they deserve each other. Sales, baby. Sell it and they will buy.

Back to a kinder gentler thread...........I just don't like to miss a chance to pack the search engines with a reference to Dan Tochini.

[mchud11]

Dan Tochini's "Momentus" and other hot air propositions are a load of badly packed sputum delivered by a smiley faced lung whose mental interior is coated with the black tar of years of smoke.

He's reinvented his spiel over and over, now into corporate-speak-personal-trainer-success blather. His intellectual visage moderately resembles a an undernourished possum's private parts wrapped in a condom sheet cake frosted with you-don't-wanna-know.

If he would stop using the word "Christian" I wouldn't mind, but since day 1 in Sonoma County and then fanning out across the land, where now-L.A. I think - he's been on this mission to help others by bastardizing the message of Jesus Christ - where'd it come from and what qualifies his iluminations of grandeur to be worth cash money - is a good question.

He, Loynn, Greaser - they deserve each other. Sales, baby. Sell it and they will buy.

Back to a kinder gentler thread...........I just don't like to miss a chance to pack the search engines with a reference to Dan Tochini.

So, Socks, you are 'Pro' or 'Agin'? I am hearing a Rush Limbaugh "on crack" rant. Are you like me Socks, can't wait to read Larry Flynt's new tell all on sex in America in politics over the last two hundred years or do you fall asleep with the latest Joyce Meyers work, all safe and secure on your "Kindle"? Just messin with ya Socks, no need to hack my Forex account.

love,

michael

[socks]

Limbaugh on crack reads like Rick Warren on meth by comparison to anything that I, socks, write. I haven't even gotten started on what I REALLY think of the oozey anal drip of Momentus and it's afterbirths but needless to say - I'm agin it. Why? Because it runs counter to all known and unknown principles of productive human engagement and would probably benefit going back to prototype stage and testing for an intended use within colonies of angry mutant squid who could use enhanced tools and methods for tearing open the carcasses of dead whales prior to feasting on the putrified blubber. That's just one suggestion, I have more.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Hey Socks!

EST "training" ring a bell for "dan-the-man sushimi"??????...........Same ole anal drip, with similar value to human deconstruction imho! Another cult, yearning to be "free" except for the fact they charge you for your own deconstruction with no reconstruction assistance! another bunch of non-original, composted hooey.

Hi to the Mrs., and.......................of course.......................PEACE..................

[Ham]

If it is the "living truth" fellowship, why does it seem to be in dire need of resuscitation? I mean, it wants a *donation* of a motorcoach, money, more support..

[waysider]

If it is the "living truth" fellowship, why does it seem to be in dire need of resuscitation? I mean, it wants a *donation* of a motorcoach, money, more support..

Hey, squirrel!

Lighten up!

Life don't come cheap.

'specially the kinda life that includes lots of perks and bennies.

Give now!

Give lots!

Give 'til it hurts!

Amen

edit: Brudder

Edited July 30, 2011 by waysider

[waysider]

Wrong thread, again....I really gotta quit that.... maybe for Lent....Heh

Edited July 30, 2011 by waysider

[Ham]

I might be persuaded to chip in on a defibrillator.

Nurse. Doc, there is no pulse..

Doc. (applying conductive grease to patient). Nurse give me the paddles.

***.. waiting...*

Nurse. Clear.

kazzzzzort

Doc, listens with stethoscope. There is no pulse. The patient is turning deep shades of blue.

Nurse. Clear!

kazzzzort.

[waysider]

Nurse, I think I might need a sponge bath.

WHAT? You don't KNOW that you know that you know if you need a sponge bath?

What sort of spineless, indecisive, piece of dung are you anyway?

Sorry, nurse. I must have gotten lost in the moment-us.

Edited July 30, 2011 by waysider

[mchud11]

Nurse, I think I might need a sponge bath.

WHAT? You don't KNOW that you know that you know if you need a sponge bath?

What sort of spineless, indecisive, piece of dung are you anyway?

Sorry, nurse. I must have gotten lost in the moment-us.

Stop it Waysider, my ribs are cracking from laughter...BTW, I got banned from Christian Dating For Free for putting up an open discussion on masturbation, not, mind you practices, techniques, or supplemental reading material requirements. I wrote to Pe@er J@y about it and his response was "Well, Michael, I suppose if you were on a masturbation site and discussed Christianity the same thing would probably happen". Ya, I felt compelled to share that with you.

michael

Edited July 30, 2011 by mchud11

[socks]

Hey peace to you too DWBH!

EST - yeah, EST. http://www.rickross....andmark269.html

"EST".

EEEEEEST.

EST.

I read about "Landmark" recently, a real milestone gem, that one, by the sounds of it.

John Juedes has a very succinct writ upon the wonder that is Momentus, or Breakthough or Brokeyourback or whatever it's called now. http://www.equip.org...hrough-momentus

Momental is basically reboiled bulls--t, although John J puts that in better language than the baser sort of rank swill laden phrases I'm thinking. It's a good read.

The many sides of the man, the myth, the mothra: http://dantocchini.com/my-websites/

He might want to drop flyers over Hiway 29 and Weirwille Road with this one - http://www.accd.org/ the foot ociation for Christian development. They deserve each other's efforts.

These Slick Willies all find each other, sooner or later, I've noticed. Guess it's like gravity and possibly the way that greatest of modern inventions - literally one of the all time Top 10 Great Ideas of Modern Man - works and that's of course The Toilet. Now there's an idea that's worth a weekend and 500 bucks. That'll be one hecka toilet but hey - do we deserve any less? But yes, the toilet, the way water inevitably, inexorably and without the slightest bit of additional effort, swirls and flows and draws together the gook and well, flushes it out. That my friend is a metaphor worth giving at least 30 seconds to. Like a great spinning swirl of universal inevitability it all comes together and joins the clean with the filthy and sends it on it's way to become recycled, over and over and over and over.Different form, different name, cleaned up and spiffy sparkling and new but still pretty much recycled hmmm....stuff.

[waysider]

I'm not so sure "recycle" is the appropriate term. Typically, when you "recycle" something, you render it down to its more basic form, remove the impurities and start over. But, this stuff---well, it's really just "re-dressed" not "recycled", in my opinion.

[socks]

Redressed - yes! A better word for a better understood process.

Sort of a smarmy mix of excreta and paste, formed to insure the original ingredients maintain texture and integrity.

I like it.

That's the living freaking truth.

[socks]

Read it for yourself - from the Tochster's brain to your eyes.....

Transformation is what occurs when people alter the way the world appears to them by making specific decisions to tap into the power of interpretation.

******************************************

(read that first line again - several times, hold your breath, light a candle, count to 100 and exhale slowly. Repeat until understanding wafts across your consciousness like the gentle odor of a butterflie's breath, then do it again and soon you will understand how some neanderthal's from his past known as "Christians" might take issue with the essence of his concept(s)... )

So, why is it that producing transformations in how teams, organizations and families work together is so elusive despite well intentioned, very smart people? I believe the number one challenge is that our culture is entrained to listen for simple answers, sound bites, steps, tips and techniques to very complex challenges. We want answers to questions that demand more than what can be achieved through a sound byte or even an audio book.

(yes....even an audio book - hard to believe but even that. )

---------------------------------------------------

Now I may already be in trouble because I neglected to get permission to copy paste that from one of those websites and in fact did not negotiate a price to do so and that's mmmmmmm probably one of the first and worst Sins in this Slick's Keys to Success, not paying for the priceless........and sure, don't kick an income stream outta your bed just because it's underwear's brown, money's money - there can be gold in them cottons.

But - there it is, like a duck, sitting.

The first sentence really - it's so incredibly beautiful I will need a weekend or two to ponder it's fullness. But for those who haven't eaten of this bowl, again - duck. There. It's sitting.

So - for all you hungering for your daily plate of spiritual foie gras, there it is. The good news......there's more.

[excathedra]

damn it socks you're just mad you had to sign an agreement to release him/them if the fellas in the white coats carried you out of there

[mchud11]

Read it for yourself - from the Tochster's brain to your eyes.....

Transformation is what occurs when people alter the way the world appears to them by making specific decisions to tap into the power of interpretation.

******************************************

(read that first line again - several times, hold your breath, light a candle, count to 100 and exhale slowly. Repeat until understanding wafts across your consciousness like the gentle odor of a butterflie's breath, then do it again and soon you will understand how some neanderthal's from his past known as "Christians" might take issue with the essence of his concept(s)... )

So, why is it that producing transformations in how teams, organizations and families work together is so elusive despite well intentioned, very smart people? I believe the number one challenge is that our culture is entrained to listen for simple answers, sound bites, steps, tips and techniques to very complex challenges. We want answers to questions that demand more than what can be achieved through a sound byte or even an audio book.

Ya, socks...what that is talking about..is that we all have perceptions and assumptions...a lot of the time those perceptions are inaccurate. Unless they are dealt with, put to the side, they can and often color our behavior...as in to our disadvantage. If you think that is baloney..well it is baloney...That's called freedom of will..

michael

(yes....even an audio book - hard to believe but even that. )

---------------------------------------------------

Now I may already be in trouble because I neglected to get permission to copy paste that from one of those websites and in fact did not negotiate a price to do so and that's mmmmmmm probably one of the first and worst Sins in this Slick's Keys to Success, not paying for the priceless........and sure, don't kick an income stream outta your bed just because it's underwear's brown, money's money - there can be gold in them cottons.

But - there it is, like a duck, sitting.

The first sentence really - it's so incredibly beautiful I will need a weekend or two to ponder it's fullness. But for those who haven't eaten of this bowl, again - duck. There. It's sitting.

So - for all you hungering for your daily plate of spiritual foie gras, there it is. The good news......there's more.

[Ham]

Sort of a smarmy mix of excreta and paste, formed to insure the original ingredients maintain texture and integrity.

Kesey claims corn starch is the cure to this kind of nonsense..

applied to "swarmy" what is the word..

in a hot courtroom.. so.. whatever it is does not anymore stick together..

I'm sorry friend. It was the word "swarmy" that prompted this nonsense..

[mchud11]

Kesey claims corn starch is the cure to this kind of nonsense..

applied to "swarmy" what is the word..

in a hot courtroom.. so.. whatever it is does not anymore stick together..

I'm sorry friend. It was the word "swarmy" that prompted this nonsense..

Thanks, Ham

I had to look it up. I had been thinking it was a kind of Greek sandwich wrapped lovingly in a Pita with "the juice".

2.Swarmy

Swarmy is a conflation of the words "swarthy" and "smarmy". Originally intended to be an insulting term referring to an unsavoury person with a shallow personality and a less-than-appealing set of grooming and dress habits.

So, Richard Dawson might fit in all this, eh? "The bad suit says?"

[socks]

"damn it socks you're just mad you had to sign an agreement to release him/them if the fellas in the white coats carried you out of there"

Y'know, you just reminded me of a statement my wif' made a year of so after we left the Wee Willy Winkee Way and started hearing about their wholesale brutality and what they were dishing out at the time and being thankful I'd taken the high road out instead of going in alphabetical order through the Way's leaderz and unloading a tank load of UMF on them one by one -

she said "I guess we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us".

I thought about that for a moment and realized that this would be one of those rare moments when she in all her sweetness and loving intelligence was in fact, wrong about her assessment of that situation. See, her assumptions about her own reality had been formed by a somewhat limited and small slice of the actual larger reality in which she'd existed but not been fully aware of - and therefore was only a partially formed vision. I knew right then and there that this was an opportunity to expand her personal horizons to places that well, like, new places. So I did.

I responded "No, actually we left the Way before I had a chance to get really mean to them".

And that again is the living freaking truth.

There's still always time of course, but it wouldn't be fun anymore so, yeah.

Blends Ham. It's all about blends.

This just in! A note to socks - "why do you hate D. T. so much? What did he ever do to you?"

Cool! A perfect opportunity for me, socks, to expound on that greatest of topics - why socks thinks the way he does.

I don't hate him. I saw a rat under the kitchen counter last winter, little squinty guy. I didn't hate him, didn't even put out a trap. That's why we have a cat, a cat who won't move a leg except to eat, poop and switch sleeping positions but will sit like the Sphinx for hours and hours once it knows there's a rat on the move somewhere in her domain and then - well, I never see the rat again.....what goes around comes around, cycle of life stuff and life has a way of taking care of it's own detritus which is what MoMental looks like to me, if smarmy corn starch and excreta can be classified as such and I'll admit up front I might be stretching it there a tad.

I also consider it a personal achievement that he's never done anything to me or anyone related to me, good or bad, although I will admit it's not a great achievement and probably goes on the same shelf as all the times I've remembered to watch where I'm stepping while walking in the park and avoided getting dog poop on my sneak's. It's those little wins that are kinda cool and idle their time in those parts of my consciousness not being used for higher value work, like avoiding spraying Ant Spray in my eyes instead of at the ants.

[waysider]

"like avoiding spraying Ant Spray in my eyes instead of at the ants."

I hate when that happens.