Now that might be a legitimate reason to make a call.
It seems though.. wouldn't it TROUBLING to a parent to have a telemarketer target their underage child? Seems he would have to recruit in a non-threatening and minimally obnoxious manner..
but to recruit to build a church? target kids?
whats with that?
Unless he considers "kids" to be under forty..
Not exactly sure how it works - just know you're not on the right track. He has an SAT business and ongoing relationships with schools.
Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease (Wikipedia) 68.60 A higher score indicates easier readability (scores go from 0 to 100).
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level * (Wikipedia) 9.20
Gunning-Fog Score * (Wikipedia) 11.90
Coleman-Liau Index * (Wikipedia) 8.10
SMOG Index * (Wikipedia) 8.30
Automated Readability Index * (Wikipedia) 8.70
Average Grade Level * 9.24 Excludes Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease score.
* These scores return a "grade level", based on the USA education system. A grade level is equivalent to the number of years of education a person has had. Scores over 22 should generally be taken to mean graduate level text.
The tool reported that this text contained 95 sentences, with 2096 words (22.06 per sentence) made up of 2869 syllables (1.37 per word).
The ninth through eleventh grade comprehension llevels seem to be a step lower than his last epistle..
The red flags for me were, "Elizabeth and I have identified a growing nucleus of brethren who have earned OUR trust.....love US. Emphasis on our and us mine.
That said to me the same ole ego, ego, ego. It is all about them. We now know the criteria to be on his staff. Just loving the Lord and having an "accurate knowledge of the Word" is not enough. You gotta earn it sucker and looove them.
The red flags for me were, "Elizabeth and I have identified a growing nucleus of brethren who have earned OUR trust.....love US. Emphasis on our and us mine.
That said to me the same ole ego, ego, ego. It is all about them. We now know the criteria to be on his staff. Just loving the Lord and having an "accurate knowledge of the Word" is not enough. You gotta earn it sucker and looove them.
Creepy, very creepy.
To add my 2 cents worth here - - - I found it very clear (from the "git-go") that the the "recruiting of kids" mentioned earlier dealt exclusively with the SAT thing rather than any "ministry" JAL might be currently involved in. It was "as plain as the nose on my face", and I got a big chuckle out of those (who have a LOT more "smarts" than I) that either couldn't/ wouldn't/ or refused to see it.
That being said - - - Kimberly raises a very poignant issue about "earning trust". Not to derail (too much) here, a friend of mine in a small town in Florida (his name is Randy) does "ministry" work to inmates at the local prison. He lost a leg due to a drunk driver in a car when he was on a motorcycle (at age 16), and though now in his 50's, he's learned to live with both his disability as well as what he considers his "ministry". He goes and preaches/ counsels/ etc., at the prison in his town on a weekly basis and considers it time well spent.
He asks for no money, he asks for no "trust", and he isn't looking to build a "following". He's there to serve those less fortunate than he is, although in my book he would qualify as one of the "less fortunate" himself given what has happened to him in his life at such a young age. I think that someone who can "preach and counsel" like that in a local area to inmates in a prison with NO aspirations of greatness for himself because he is truly putting others first and not seeking a "global market", is the better person.
For what it's worth - - - I've attended many churches since my daze in twi and ces/stfi. I have YET to have a minister in ANY of those congregations welcome me because THEY EARNED MY TRUST!!!, and I've gone to everything from Baptist to Messianic Jewish congregations, with Jehovah Witnesses thrown in the midst. WTF is "EARNING YOUR TRUST" all about????????. Aren't you there to minister to them, or are they there to minister to you? To repeat a venerable old phrase from the docvic era - - - "Take a check-up from the neck up". Who sang that in Joyful Noise? Dean? Skip? Brian? I forget now, but it's applicable in this situation.
As you know, most of our beloved brethren in the Body of Christ are hampered by a lack of knowledge of the truth, for which there is no substitute, and without which, truth cannot precisely be lived.
Brethren? Oh so who exactly are these brethren? Is this your code word for der Victoid's phrase, "Unbelieving believers"?
In the course of events these past few years, Elizabeth and I have identified a growing nucleus of brethren who have earned our trust, and who want to be involved in TLTF.
A few years? Hmmmm, let me see now.... hasn't it been a few years since you dumped Elizabeth because someone saw spiders coming out of her nose in a vision?
So what happened here John? Did you and Elizabeth get back together and start to craft your revenge? I have seen this before... you pretend to be fully committed to a cause while you slowly take it apart from the inside so that you can have a following to carry away with you. (Isn't there a verse somewhere asking, "Who did carry you away?" Now folks can say, "Elizabeth and John did!) How dishonest this is! You've spent your time "identifying" folks??? I'm sorry but that sounds much more like you've singled out those who will follow you when you leave. It seems you learned your lessons from der Victoid eerily well. This is a pattern that I've seen ex-twi leaders follow over and over.
JAL's heart has always been with TWI. Most of his time, effort, and energy went into calling and writing people (mostly corp - mainly because that's who he knew) who were in or who had recently left. There were a fair number of people who stopped involvement once R@lph left. The next biggest wave left because of Momentus. I have no idea what the effect of personal prophecy had on the numbers as I had pretty much ignored that whole thing, but it was the reason for my exit from doing work.
JAL has pretty much defined his ministry as being for those that he deems worthy of his trust. I think he's gotten it backwards, but then again there's been this whole loyalty thing going on all along and now nobody really knows who to believe.
The irony in all this is that DG was being brought on to fix things. I can't imagine that a one of these people (the Johns & Mark) ever thought that "fixing" CES/STF would involve firing two of the major players. That was the plan all along. I just didn't think they would be able to pull it off.
2.) Our observations and derision help him assemble a list of "You may hear some say....." objections that John can use to obviate when speaking.
Maybe - I don't know. He doesn't like forums - never has.
It used to be that all one had to deal with were the die-hard trinitarians. Now the field is open wide to people who *might* have been theologically and perhaps even philosophically on the same page at one time, yet are no longer. He really doesn't get why people are upset or have turned away from what he believes is true.
I can play batle ship bible verses as well as JAL can.
but I will not because God loves the bible but LOVES his people more .
jal says it isnt about the knowledge yet that is exactly how he manipulates people and dismisses people.
If I spent 60 looking at a rather small book and "researching" what it must really mean than i would be a master player as well .
Is that all that a faith person can do?
I think if we can do what Jesus Christ said we should do even a little bit it is pleasing to God.
they still hae the heirarchy from twi days the levels of knowing God, as the standard is bible verses and knowing how to throw them at folks who desire to know a Loving Father.
I would not slap my 3 year old for not knowing how to drive the car, nor would I say God loves him less because he is unable to to drive a car.
thw manifestations and how "good" people are at them is the other standard. pp was thrown in to give something to do for those who think they could be at least as good as them in sit and etc...
just give me a break , seriously is not worship a private affair ? we can rejoice publicly with others but true worship is the relationship each child has with the father of all.
Maybe - I don't know. He doesn't like forums - never has.
Oh but he does like forums for some things if they serve his purposes... else he wouldn't find a way for his long drawn out letters to find their way here. He uses people and things to his advantage, then he whines and cries that forums are nameless and faceless when his feet are held to the fire.
If he were honest he would continue in his regular job until such a time arose that it was necessary for him to travel. But noooooooo... he wants the big shot position right from the beginning.
Now I wonder if maybe the spider crawling out of Eliz's nose looked like JAL.
Watching the beginning stages of JAL's new ministry......makes me wonder if this was the same mindset as veepee had? I need this, I need that......I need an RV.
Heck, even when vic moved his operation to the wierwille homestead wasn't he looking for a "quick fix" to get him up and running? And, surely he knew that his brother Harry would throw some cash and support his way. Just like vic's self-promotion and huge ego, JAL is a ditto dud.
Tazia said DG was brought in to clean up STF. and no one thought firing two out of the three original founders would be the solution.
At my job the powers that be bring in in term directors to clean house every few years or so.
People grow in unity and purpose which can be a good thing Until it becomes a lower standard than is acceptable and the decline in productivity is noticeable to "outsiders".
or the standard must be raised.
Jesus Christ is the same as always His "standard" has not changed. DG will say well now division is normal and from the bible many of them parted ways.
Myself I have no problem with change in the work place I am quite accustomed to it actually enjoy the chance to do it differently even if it doesn't work as well I feel I can learn.
BUT I know others who can not tolerate change and completely shut down when a different approach is used.
valuable skilled people who can not and will not shift thinking patterns.. and for a reason because it may not work as well and then we are stuck with a mess.
that takes time money and all kinds of resources wasted . At my job unity can hurt us because we get stuck in a rut. Maybe that is what happened to STF.
I reread JAL "wimpy e-mail" on the front page of GS.
Ya know if he could he would still be with stf.
they just do not want him. I see two issues one is stf have felt they have gone far enough with jal and stopped being a loving example or "teacher" clearly for him to heck with unity of purpose etc.
what does that say about how they would tolerate or help others? seriously he is the guy who put the pay check on their plate.
Of course they may say Jesus Christ did pay them then why in heck do they still need the coins from people? see.
the other is how very unstable JAL is with his emotions and words, which again how does that play out in helping others who may not have the decades caring and knowing and working together?
not good.
The idea that we are to look beyond human frailties and just obey God and his word is so stupid.
BECAUSE they claim they teach Gods word in a manner no one else can in a superior race for the super crown of life itself.
so ya can not just obey God and not men, because they have the edge the bigger better paper.
cant ya see it?
it is bible worship. yes now God loves His book but I firmly believe He loves His own creation more.
I wonder if we took away their ability to sit at a desk and read from books if they would still "have the power" to know God as well as they want people to think they do.
be a people who have to work 8-9 hours a day deal with communities that are different and strange to their manners and rituals on a regular bases live among those who live OMG in this world, without skipping out after a prayer and a sermon. Without standing before them and demanding they change because God says too. How about just loving one another regardless of your research and invention.
for my life that is the only way to really grow in faith (trust) with God, to be able to see humanity and evil on a constant level along side of His loving grace.
WE may be "called out" as a chosen people BUT not to the point we no longer need humanity itself. the world reminds of us of God.
constantly without end .
I believe they have made their own worlds, and will not accept change because it may not work, and it may not but isn't that why we need a God ?
it could be idols are not always golden they just need some of it.
I didn't know JAL when he was in TWI. I knew his parents and siblings. Just based on my observation and being around his mom and dad, I think he was groomed from an early age to believe that he was destined for greatness. How he got sucked into the whole TWI thing is beyond me, but I think a lot of it had to do with this need to stand out. He would have never stood out at the church he was raised in because it is such an affluent church filled with very affluent and influential people who are also very low-key and don't do bombastic. TWI provided the vehicle for him to stand out and be his bombastic self, and my understanding is that he didn't have to try very hard for that to happen.
He told me one time that he thought only about 30% of the doctrine taught in TWI was wrong. I told him I thought it was closer to 70% and that was before I really looked at it. He's operated on the premise that at the root of TWI is good. Many here disagree with that. He continues to build on that basic premise - that 70% is worth holding onto. That, and the fact that he has never seriously looked into anything that didn't have a whole lot of crazy behind it - like momentus and personal prophecy. This is what has largely shaped his theological and world view. He's very attracted to stuff that is outside the realm of orthodox because orthodoxy doesn't fuel the fundamentalist flame so much. He's always on the alert for that one thing that will set him apart from the pack, never getting the vibe that perhaps he shouldn't go there. He doesn't seem to have a filter in place that would warn him about people. Dan T (momentus) set off all sorts of red flags for me, as did JB and DG. JAL didn't see it at all - and still doesn't, to a certain extent. What has never happened is for him to take a step back and seriously revisit everything he believes to be true about God and religion. But that's just the way he is.
While he's the one that's out there - for now, I find him far less threatening because he just doesn't do covert. I don't believe he ever saw his demise at CES coming. I don't know who else warned him about what was going on at CES, but it was clear that he was determined to listen to the people who were actually out to get him. Even when I talked to him the last time, it was clear that he really doesn't know who his enemies are. And unfortunately, when JAL thinks he's right, there's no amount of pointing out the facts that will convince him otherwise.
I imagine that JAL will go to his grave with his current thinking intact - as long as he finds sufficient supporters to keep him funded.
Maybe - I don't know. He doesn't like forums - never has.
It used to be that all one had to deal with were the die-hard trinitarians. Now the field is open wide to people who *might* have been theologically and perhaps even philosophically on the same page at one time, yet are no longer. He really doesn't get why people are upset or have turned away from what he believes is true.
I didn't know JAL when he was in TWI. I knew his parents and siblings. Just based on my observation and being around his mom and dad, I think he was groomed from an early age to believe that he was destined for greatness. How he got sucked into the whole TWI thing is beyond me, but I think a lot of it had to do with this need to stand out.
I imagine that JAL will go to his grave with his current thinking intact - as long as he finds sufficient supporters to keep him funded.
Hi Tzaia,
I'm glad you've shared so much here on this thread and "Thus Saith Paul" too, it's given me some things to think about for the last couple of days for sure.
It sounds like your opinions of JL have come from up close observation and I like that.
One of the reasons I like these forums is BECAUSE OF OUR MANY DIFFERENCES. It gives me a chance to either come up with a good answer in the face of disagreement or a chance to tweak or even trash some of the things I may be mistaken about. It doesn't sound like JL is willing to do that in a vigorously individualistic environment like GSC and I believe that is JL's loss.
As a few considerations of my own about TWI leadership patterns going back to VPW....
#1 TWI leadership understand that as long as they sound convinced that some people will follow them.
#2 TWI leadership know full well how to make vigorous debate seem like persecution for the sake of their followers.
#3 Anybody who nicknames himself "JALVIS" as JL has been reported here to do is probably pretty good at point #'s 1 & 2.
#4 If I'm right about these things and JL it is most likely that he would turn viscioussss as soon as he deals with anybody whose private considerations runs counter to the schtick that he uses to fatten his own belly. And by fatten his own belly I include something like stroking his ego. If he visciously puts down those who burst his bubbles it would also be indicative to me of someone who lives for appearances without enough appreciation for substantive truth.
anybody whose private considerations runs counter to the schtick that he uses to fatten his own belly. And by fatten his own belly I include things like, stroking his ego and/or bursting his bubbles.
oh yeah, and......
I, too, know John and this is still a fantastic statement
I'll second Geisha on this one--NO I dont know-I really dont. Who are these people that youve been complaining about over and over nauseatingly as the entire basis of your life for 40 years?
The noncult christians that I know are all doing pretty good in their lives..
Speaking of objective measurements---How many times have you been married again?
Youve blown off your primary relationship what twice now? and you want to lecture people on relationships?
Guess what John --Your life speaks so loudly I dont really care what you think some obscure word means in sanskrit or hebrew, or greek or -especially if this exquisite knowledge leaves you still so completely dense that you'd break up with your wife because someone else had a DREAM about spiders-
are you kiddin me?
You can't really be serious can you?
Now you want to set yourself up yet AGAIN as someone who has the first clue about anything at all?
To me this is hilarious
If you ask me You should drop this whole ministry business and just get yourself a comedy show or a traveling sideshow act. the best part is you would Just have to be yourself --its full of all sorts of unintended humor. Your letters are like watching a really bizarre sideshow act that no one takes seriously but is amusing for how out there it is....
If you did that At least then it would be entertaining and you would be 'living truthfully'
I hear Jeff Dunham is looking for some new "dummies". Gee, you can work with Walter, Achmed, Peanut, and Bubba J. lol!
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doojable
It sounds like JAL is making a commercial: "Help! I'm talking and I can't shut up!"
Shellon
oh yeah, and...... I, too, know John and this is still a fantastic statement
Tzaia
Not exactly sure how it works - just know you're not on the right track. He has an SAT business and ongoing relationships with schools.
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Ham
wouldn't be the first time
still.. who are these kids he seems to be recruiting for hours on end every day on the phone?
just curious..
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Ham
sounds like he has given up on the adults..
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Ham
sowie.. I see the context was recruiting kids for the sat thingy.
Next time jl.. please don't give me such a long epistle.. I mean, reallly..
half way through the thing, I was so bored to tears, I had no idea what I'm reading..
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Ham
The ninth through eleventh grade comprehension llevels seem to be a step lower than his last epistle..
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kimberly
The red flags for me were, "Elizabeth and I have identified a growing nucleus of brethren who have earned OUR trust.....love US. Emphasis on our and us mine.
That said to me the same ole ego, ego, ego. It is all about them. We now know the criteria to be on his staff. Just loving the Lord and having an "accurate knowledge of the Word" is not enough. You gotta earn it sucker and looove them.
Creepy, very creepy.
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dmiller
To add my 2 cents worth here - - - I found it very clear (from the "git-go") that the the "recruiting of kids" mentioned earlier dealt exclusively with the SAT thing rather than any "ministry" JAL might be currently involved in. It was "as plain as the nose on my face", and I got a big chuckle out of those (who have a LOT more "smarts" than I) that either couldn't/ wouldn't/ or refused to see it.
That being said - - - Kimberly raises a very poignant issue about "earning trust". Not to derail (too much) here, a friend of mine in a small town in Florida (his name is Randy) does "ministry" work to inmates at the local prison. He lost a leg due to a drunk driver in a car when he was on a motorcycle (at age 16), and though now in his 50's, he's learned to live with both his disability as well as what he considers his "ministry". He goes and preaches/ counsels/ etc., at the prison in his town on a weekly basis and considers it time well spent.
He asks for no money, he asks for no "trust", and he isn't looking to build a "following". He's there to serve those less fortunate than he is, although in my book he would qualify as one of the "less fortunate" himself given what has happened to him in his life at such a young age. I think that someone who can "preach and counsel" like that in a local area to inmates in a prison with NO aspirations of greatness for himself because he is truly putting others first and not seeking a "global market", is the better person.
For what it's worth - - - I've attended many churches since my daze in twi and ces/stfi. I have YET to have a minister in ANY of those congregations welcome me because THEY EARNED MY TRUST!!!, and I've gone to everything from Baptist to Messianic Jewish congregations, with Jehovah Witnesses thrown in the midst. WTF is "EARNING YOUR TRUST" all about????????. Aren't you there to minister to them, or are they there to minister to you? To repeat a venerable old phrase from the docvic era - - - "Take a check-up from the neck up". Who sang that in Joyful Noise? Dean? Skip? Brian? I forget now, but it's applicable in this situation.
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doojable
Brethren? Oh so who exactly are these brethren? Is this your code word for der Victoid's phrase, "Unbelieving believers"?
A few years? Hmmmm, let me see now.... hasn't it been a few years since you dumped Elizabeth because someone saw spiders coming out of her nose in a vision?
So what happened here John? Did you and Elizabeth get back together and start to craft your revenge? I have seen this before... you pretend to be fully committed to a cause while you slowly take it apart from the inside so that you can have a following to carry away with you. (Isn't there a verse somewhere asking, "Who did carry you away?" Now folks can say, "Elizabeth and John did!) How dishonest this is! You've spent your time "identifying" folks??? I'm sorry but that sounds much more like you've singled out those who will follow you when you leave. It seems you learned your lessons from der Victoid eerily well. This is a pattern that I've seen ex-twi leaders follow over and over.
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Tzaia
JAL's heart has always been with TWI. Most of his time, effort, and energy went into calling and writing people (mostly corp - mainly because that's who he knew) who were in or who had recently left. There were a fair number of people who stopped involvement once R@lph left. The next biggest wave left because of Momentus. I have no idea what the effect of personal prophecy had on the numbers as I had pretty much ignored that whole thing, but it was the reason for my exit from doing work.
JAL has pretty much defined his ministry as being for those that he deems worthy of his trust. I think he's gotten it backwards, but then again there's been this whole loyalty thing going on all along and now nobody really knows who to believe.
The irony in all this is that DG was being brought on to fix things. I can't imagine that a one of these people (the Johns & Mark) ever thought that "fixing" CES/STF would involve firing two of the major players. That was the plan all along. I just didn't think they would be able to pull it off.
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doojable
Sometimes I wonder if the real reason JAL "allows" his letters to get posted here at GSC is so that he can use the forum to his advantage.
1.) Be it good, or bad publicity - at least it's publicity and it's better than not being seen at all.
2.) Our observations and derision help him assemble a list of "You may hear some say....." objections that John can use to obviate when speaking.
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Tzaia
Maybe - I don't know. He doesn't like forums - never has.
It used to be that all one had to deal with were the die-hard trinitarians. Now the field is open wide to people who *might* have been theologically and perhaps even philosophically on the same page at one time, yet are no longer. He really doesn't get why people are upset or have turned away from what he believes is true.
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pond
2 corinthians 1:9 10;7
philippians 3 41 thessalonians 2;4
I can play batle ship bible verses as well as JAL can.
but I will not because God loves the bible but LOVES his people more .
jal says it isnt about the knowledge yet that is exactly how he manipulates people and dismisses people.
If I spent 60 looking at a rather small book and "researching" what it must really mean than i would be a master player as well .
Is that all that a faith person can do?
I think if we can do what Jesus Christ said we should do even a little bit it is pleasing to God.
they still hae the heirarchy from twi days the levels of knowing God, as the standard is bible verses and knowing how to throw them at folks who desire to know a Loving Father.
I would not slap my 3 year old for not knowing how to drive the car, nor would I say God loves him less because he is unable to to drive a car.
thw manifestations and how "good" people are at them is the other standard. pp was thrown in to give something to do for those who think they could be at least as good as them in sit and etc...
just give me a break , seriously is not worship a private affair ? we can rejoice publicly with others but true worship is the relationship each child has with the father of all.
this is a game played by fools.
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doojable
Oh but he does like forums for some things if they serve his purposes... else he wouldn't find a way for his long drawn out letters to find their way here. He uses people and things to his advantage, then he whines and cries that forums are nameless and faceless when his feet are held to the fire.
If he were honest he would continue in his regular job until such a time arose that it was necessary for him to travel. But noooooooo... he wants the big shot position right from the beginning.
Now I wonder if maybe the spider crawling out of Eliz's nose looked like JAL.
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skyrider
Watching the beginning stages of JAL's new ministry......makes me wonder if this was the same mindset as veepee had? I need this, I need that......I need an RV.
Heck, even when vic moved his operation to the wierwille homestead wasn't he looking for a "quick fix" to get him up and running? And, surely he knew that his brother Harry would throw some cash and support his way. Just like vic's self-promotion and huge ego, JAL is a ditto dud.
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pond
Tazia said DG was brought in to clean up STF. and no one thought firing two out of the three original founders would be the solution.
At my job the powers that be bring in in term directors to clean house every few years or so.
People grow in unity and purpose which can be a good thing Until it becomes a lower standard than is acceptable and the decline in productivity is noticeable to "outsiders".
or the standard must be raised.
Jesus Christ is the same as always His "standard" has not changed. DG will say well now division is normal and from the bible many of them parted ways.
Myself I have no problem with change in the work place I am quite accustomed to it actually enjoy the chance to do it differently even if it doesn't work as well I feel I can learn.
BUT I know others who can not tolerate change and completely shut down when a different approach is used.
valuable skilled people who can not and will not shift thinking patterns.. and for a reason because it may not work as well and then we are stuck with a mess.
that takes time money and all kinds of resources wasted . At my job unity can hurt us because we get stuck in a rut. Maybe that is what happened to STF.
I reread JAL "wimpy e-mail" on the front page of GS.
Ya know if he could he would still be with stf.
they just do not want him. I see two issues one is stf have felt they have gone far enough with jal and stopped being a loving example or "teacher" clearly for him to heck with unity of purpose etc.
what does that say about how they would tolerate or help others? seriously he is the guy who put the pay check on their plate.
Of course they may say Jesus Christ did pay them then why in heck do they still need the coins from people? see.
the other is how very unstable JAL is with his emotions and words, which again how does that play out in helping others who may not have the decades caring and knowing and working together?
not good.
The idea that we are to look beyond human frailties and just obey God and his word is so stupid.
BECAUSE they claim they teach Gods word in a manner no one else can in a superior race for the super crown of life itself.
so ya can not just obey God and not men, because they have the edge the bigger better paper.
cant ya see it?
it is bible worship. yes now God loves His book but I firmly believe He loves His own creation more.
I wonder if we took away their ability to sit at a desk and read from books if they would still "have the power" to know God as well as they want people to think they do.
be a people who have to work 8-9 hours a day deal with communities that are different and strange to their manners and rituals on a regular bases live among those who live OMG in this world, without skipping out after a prayer and a sermon. Without standing before them and demanding they change because God says too. How about just loving one another regardless of your research and invention.
for my life that is the only way to really grow in faith (trust) with God, to be able to see humanity and evil on a constant level along side of His loving grace.
WE may be "called out" as a chosen people BUT not to the point we no longer need humanity itself. the world reminds of us of God.
constantly without end .
I believe they have made their own worlds, and will not accept change because it may not work, and it may not but isn't that why we need a God ?
it could be idols are not always golden they just need some of it.
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Tzaia
Dooj - you're giving him far too much credit.
I didn't know JAL when he was in TWI. I knew his parents and siblings. Just based on my observation and being around his mom and dad, I think he was groomed from an early age to believe that he was destined for greatness. How he got sucked into the whole TWI thing is beyond me, but I think a lot of it had to do with this need to stand out. He would have never stood out at the church he was raised in because it is such an affluent church filled with very affluent and influential people who are also very low-key and don't do bombastic. TWI provided the vehicle for him to stand out and be his bombastic self, and my understanding is that he didn't have to try very hard for that to happen.
He told me one time that he thought only about 30% of the doctrine taught in TWI was wrong. I told him I thought it was closer to 70% and that was before I really looked at it. He's operated on the premise that at the root of TWI is good. Many here disagree with that. He continues to build on that basic premise - that 70% is worth holding onto. That, and the fact that he has never seriously looked into anything that didn't have a whole lot of crazy behind it - like momentus and personal prophecy. This is what has largely shaped his theological and world view. He's very attracted to stuff that is outside the realm of orthodox because orthodoxy doesn't fuel the fundamentalist flame so much. He's always on the alert for that one thing that will set him apart from the pack, never getting the vibe that perhaps he shouldn't go there. He doesn't seem to have a filter in place that would warn him about people. Dan T (momentus) set off all sorts of red flags for me, as did JB and DG. JAL didn't see it at all - and still doesn't, to a certain extent. What has never happened is for him to take a step back and seriously revisit everything he believes to be true about God and religion. But that's just the way he is.
While he's the one that's out there - for now, I find him far less threatening because he just doesn't do covert. I don't believe he ever saw his demise at CES coming. I don't know who else warned him about what was going on at CES, but it was clear that he was determined to listen to the people who were actually out to get him. Even when I talked to him the last time, it was clear that he really doesn't know who his enemies are. And unfortunately, when JAL thinks he's right, there's no amount of pointing out the facts that will convince him otherwise.
I imagine that JAL will go to his grave with his current thinking intact - as long as he finds sufficient supporters to keep him funded.
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JeffSjo
Hi Tzaia,
I'm glad you've shared so much here on this thread and "Thus Saith Paul" too, it's given me some things to think about for the last couple of days for sure.
It sounds like your opinions of JL have come from up close observation and I like that.
One of the reasons I like these forums is BECAUSE OF OUR MANY DIFFERENCES. It gives me a chance to either come up with a good answer in the face of disagreement or a chance to tweak or even trash some of the things I may be mistaken about. It doesn't sound like JL is willing to do that in a vigorously individualistic environment like GSC and I believe that is JL's loss.
As a few considerations of my own about TWI leadership patterns going back to VPW....
#1 TWI leadership understand that as long as they sound convinced that some people will follow them.
#2 TWI leadership know full well how to make vigorous debate seem like persecution for the sake of their followers.
#3 Anybody who nicknames himself "JALVIS" as JL has been reported here to do is probably pretty good at point #'s 1 & 2.
#4 If I'm right about these things and JL it is most likely that he would turn viscioussss as soon as he deals with anybody whose private considerations runs counter to the schtick that he uses to fatten his own belly. And by fatten his own belly I include something like stroking his ego. If he visciously puts down those who burst his bubbles it would also be indicative to me of someone who lives for appearances without enough appreciation for substantive truth.
(I added a bit for clarification.)
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year2027
God first
thanks Tzaia
you said
I can see as so high
my and everybody on this board I would say that
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999 Ooops i cannot put enough 9's
doctrine taught anywhere are wrong
I know in part only part
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Shellon
oh yeah, and......
I, too, know John and this is still a fantastic statement
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JeffSjo
I'm glad you like it in even though you quoted me during my last editing session. :)
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Ham
"I need an RV.."
it sounds almost identical to..
"we need a VAN".
another group, but the same arrogance..
I wonder if somebody ever donated one..
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Ham
cmon.. you greasespotters. Surely, there is an unused Van amongst you all..
just send it to: da teacher. New Knoxville, Ohio. *They* (whoever they be) will know where to send it..
If I had a van.. (or RV)
I'd a Van in the morrrrrrning, I'd a van in the evvvvvening.. all over this land....
sowie..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I hear Jeff Dunham is looking for some new "dummies". Gee, you can work with Walter, Achmed, Peanut, and Bubba J. lol!
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geisha779
One motor coach associated with TWI is enough for 10 lifetimes. . ...we don't need the spin-off version too. . . . .let him walk like Jesus did.
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