As make a demand on my spirit to hear the “other” because I understand about things but not all things. Can I even ask myself these are more than I have any right to know? I get nothing and something that image but more illusions than ecumenical or a hermeneutic personal belief.
My short coming come because my lack of understanding in the words they play on like how they play on nine. But God never said there has to be nine or their less than any number at all.
Understand me we have one God and many Gods and we have one spirit and many. We are part of God and we lay aside of God because are not in spirit form yet.
We have many manifestations and one as we operate one we operate many. The spirit light shines from one light or many? You see the one you operate causes the others to shine because you can have one without the others.
Nine no 18 and 27 and so on but it goes both directions. But I am not going talk that unless asked. I will end with many and lest thank you very must with love and a holy kiss Roy.
My opinion is that for most people - certainly for me. the Way and splinter groups fall on their sword on this issue.
I've never seen anyone able to teach anyone else "How To" operate the Revelation or Power Manifestations - to the point where they could do those with the same confidence or apparent result that they seemed to have with Speaking in Tongues. Interpretation and Prophecy.
This was the point to the Way's Advanced Class - more or less, or so I have imagined, yet there was never a big crowd out following a man doing copious signs miracles & wonders, that I can recall hearing about, running loose in public, in our day and time. And no, I don't mean supposed healings that happen in back rooms - (compare with accounts in Acts or Jesus in the Gospels).
I never took "classes",... so I don't know what you all here know, were taught. Is there something I should go sign up for somewhere? Or is that just a rather pointless proposition. Are we to do the same works & greater than, or was that idea and the verse it sprang from simply a delusion?
Where did they go, the other six manifestations? Did the classes concerning them only talk a good game about them, supplying info on them? or did they actually teach anyone "how-to-do- them" ?
This is a question I've had for a long time. I thought about it somet5imes when I was a Marine in Afghanistan & Iraq, when people were shooting at me. I have a Bunch of dead friends that could have used a miracle. Sure I'm a bit Jaded at God and the people that got me started on believing in Him and a ministry that started my Parents off to believe in that and teach it to me.
Anyone?
Opinions,... answers,... laughter?
I'll listen
They are fake.
Just like speaking in tounges. It's fake, it's not real, it's made up in our minds.
It doesn't mean that these things can't happen, but we do not have the ability to control these super powers, or manifestations.
Imagine a group of people who start to take the TV show heros seriously, and start reading into the script and trying to unlock the super powers these people have.
That is how the manifestations were taught in TWI.
But like you said, there has never been anyone who has done any of these miracles on a consistent basis.
I believe that teaching super powers to people is a very manipulative practice.
Only God can dictate when these events are going to happen.
As for speaking in SIT's, I think its fake, because I can't prove that it's real. And i do believe that is a valid reason to not believe something, I don't think God wants us to be blind idiot followers of an idiotic religion.
TONGUES, GIFT OF (Also referred to as speaking in tongues)
The Spirit-given ability to speak in languages not known to the speaker or in an ecstatic language that could not normally be understood by the speaker or the hearers.
Apparently the only possibly direct reference in the Old Testament to speaking in another tongue or language is found in Isa 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people." This seems to be a reference to an invasion of the Assyrians. They apparently would speak in another language, one probably unknown to the people of Israel. The apostle Paul later applied this verse to speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:21). The apostle Peter considered the phenomenon of speaking in tongues that occurred on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Joel 2:28-32).
In an appearance to His disciples after His resurrection, Jesus declared, "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:17).
On the Day of Pentecost, the followers of Christ "were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). The people assembled in Jerusalem for this feast came from various Roman provinces representing a variety of languages. They were astonished to hear the disciples speaking of God's works in their own languages. Some have suggested that the miracle was in the hearing rather than in the speaking. This explanation, however, would transfer the miraculous from the believing disciples to the multitude who may not have been believers.
Tongues as a gift of the Spirit is especially prominent in 1 Cor 12 and 14. In 1 Cor 12 the phenomenon of tongues is listed with other gifts of the Spirit under the term gifts. As one of the several gifts given to believers as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, tongues is intended, with the other gifts, to be exercised for the building up of the church and the mutual profit of its members. In 1 Cor 13 the apostle Paul puts the gift of tongues in perspective by affirming that though we "speak with the tongues of men and of angels" (v. 1), if we do not have love, the gift of tongues has no value.
In 1 Cor 14 Paul deals more specifically with the gift of tongues and its exercise in the church. In this chapter the tongue is not an intelligible language, for it cannot be understood by the listeners. Therefore, a parallel to the gift of tongues is the gift of interpretation. The gift of tongues was used as a means of worship, thanksgiving, and prayer. While exercising this gift, the individual addresses God not man; and the result is to edify himself and not the church (1 Cor 14:2,4). This gift is never intended for self-exaltation but for the praise and glorification of God. Paul does not prohibit speaking in tongues in a public service (14:39). But he seems to assign it to a lesser place than the gift of prophecy. Paul claims for himself the gift of tongues-speaking, but apparently he exercised this gift in private and not in public (14:18-19).
The gift of tongues is to be exercised with restraint and in an orderly way. The regulations for its public use are simple and straightforward. The person who speaks in an unknown tongue is to pray that he may interpret (1 Cor 14:13). Or, someone else is to interpret what he says. Only two or three persons are to speak, with each having an interpretation of what he says. Each is also to speak in turn. If these criteria are not met, they are to remain silent (1 Cor 14:27-28). The gifts of speaking in tongues and their interpretation are to be Spiritinspired. Paul also points out that tongues are a sign to unbelievers. If these guidelines are not observed, unbelievers who are present will conclude that the people of the church are out of their minds.
The phenomenon of speaking in tongues described in the New Testament is not some psychological arousal of human emotions that results in strange sounds. This is a genuine work of the Holy Spirit
Gen-2, Wierwille proably took info from Lee Vale, Jock Edwin Stiles, and Brian George(I think or else Gregory) Leonard, Smith Wigglesworth, Lester Sumrall(most likely), Sam Storms, David Ireland, Oral Roberts, and Dennis Bennett on defintions of the 9 spiritual gifts. Most of these books are from Whitaker House Publishing. I haven't found any writings from Rufus Mosley. Other books on "Holy Spirit" in part or full are by Billy Graham, Watchman Nee, John wimber, Nicky Gumbel, Kay Warren and Thomas Holiday(Saddleback Church), Richard Bewes/Paul Blackman/Rico Tice, Rob Weber, Michael Green, Neil Anderson, Charles and Frances Hunter(healing). btw, Episcopal Book of Common Prayer/Book of Occasional Services, Lutheran Book of Worship Occassional Services, Evagelical Lutheran Worship Leaders Desk Edition, Presbyterian Book of Common Worship, and United Methodist Book of Worship= all have Healing Services.
Gal 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
and this has a lot about emotions
ON THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF THE EMOTIONS
Most writers on the emotions and on human conduct seem to be treating rather of matters outside nature than of natural phenomena following nature's general laws. They appear to conceive man to be situated in nature as a kingdom within a kingdom: for they believe that he disturbs rather than follows nature's order, that he has absolute control over his actions, and that he is determined solely by himself. They attribute human infirmities and fickleness, not to the power of nature in general, but to some mysterious flaw in the nature of man, which accordingly they bemoan, deride, despise, or, as usually happens, abuse: he, who succeeds in hitting off the weakness of the human mind more eloquently or more acutely than his fellows, is looked upon as a seer. Still there has been no lack of very excellent men (to whose toil and industry I confess myself much indebted), who have written many noteworthy things concerning the right way of life, and have given much sage advice to mankind. But no one, so far as I know, has defined the nature and strength of the emotions, and the power of the mind against them for their restraint.
I do not forget, that the illustrious Descartes, though he believed, that the mind has absolute power over its actions, strove to explain human emotions by their primary causes, and, at the same time, to point out a way, by which the mind might attain to absolute dominion over them. However, in my opinion, he accomplishes nothing beyond a display of the acuteness of his own great intellect, as I will show in the proper place. For the present I wish to revert to those, who would rather abuse or deride human emotions than understand them. Such persons will, doubtless think it strange that I should attempt to treat of human vice and folly geometrically, and should wish to set forth with rigid reasoning those matters which they cry out against as repugnant to reason, frivolous, absurd, and dreadful. However, such is my plan. Nothing comes to pass in nature, which can be set down to a flaw therein; for nature is always the same, and everywhere one and the same in her efficacy and power of action; that is, nature's laws and ordinances, whereby all things come to pass and change from one form to another, are everywhere and always the same; so that there should be one and the same method of understanding the nature of all things whatsoever, namely, through nature's universal laws and rules. Thus the passions of hatred, anger, envy, and so on, considered in themselves, follow from this same necessity and efficacy of nature; they answer to certain definite causes, through which they are understood, and possess certain properties as worthy of being known as the properties of anything else, whereof the contemplation in itself affords us delight. I shall, therefore, treat of the nature and strength of the emotions according to the same method, as I employed heretofore in my investigations concerning God and the mind. I shall consider human actions and desires in exactly the same manner, as though I were concerned with lines, planes, and solids.
i been reading "Spinoza" on A Theologico-Political Treatise, by Benedict de Spinoza, [1883], at sacred-texts.com
CHAPTER I.—OF PROPHECY
(121) Thus we have a clue to the fact that the prophets perceived nearly everything in parables and allegories, and clothed spiritual truths in bodily forms, for such is the usual method of imagination. (122) We need no longer wonder that Scripture and the prophets speak so strangely and obscurely of God's Spirit or Mind (cf. Numbers xi:17, 1 Kings xxii:21, &c.), that the Lord was seen by Micah as sitting, by Daniel as an old man clothed in white, by Ezekiel as a fire, that the Holy Spirit appeared to those with Christ as a descending dove, to the apostles as fiery tongues, to Paul on his conversion as a great light. (123) All these expressions are plainly in harmony with the current ideas of God and spirits.
Just like speaking in tounges. It's fake, it's not real, it's made up in our minds.
It doesn't mean that these things can't happen, but we do not have the ability to control these super powers, or manifestations.
Imagine a group of people who start to take the TV show heros seriously, and start reading into the script and trying to unlock the super powers these people have.
That is how the manifestations were taught in TWI.
But like you said, there has never been anyone who has done any of these miracles on a consistent basis.
I believe that teaching super powers to people is a very manipulative practice.
Only God can dictate when these events are going to happen.
As for speaking in SIT's, I think its fake, because I can't prove that it's real. And i do believe that is a valid reason to not believe something, I don't think God wants us to be blind idiot followers of an idiotic religion.
But i am probably wrong.....
Of course the main dilemma in this line of reasoning, is that the Bible says that believing is necessarry - and this line of reasoning slams the door entirely on shut on any further thought. I do know that if you simply do not believe it, you have made yourself correct, in that you have made all the manifestation of spirit impossible for you.
And whoever told me that God will work with you on this stuff if you try it was right.
The Tongue of the Spirit is what is being talked about I hope.
Being recognized either during or after it's spoken or heard is how to see it.
Not what twi taught, but real words and verse that communicate.
Not sure I understand you correctly cman, but I can explain myself a bit better perhaps. there are certain situations which arise where I basically know/feel as though There is something there that I should pay attention to do, and if/when/as i do i know more, so that the doing and the knowing-what-to-do seem to work together, all at once. Thyere's more to it than that but that part goes beyond what you said here as I see it, and begins to take the shape of things happening rather than things being said.
and no - no clear-cut "voice" and yet it's all very clear. I had the thought that it was like riding a bike in a tornado with no hands and once of being protected from my stupidity. well that probably doesn't make sense too much. but my initial objective was to go and DO, and I've been doing so. I'm not at all of the belief that there are nine seperate "manifestations" anymore. and it just seems to be that it all goes almost at once as it's needed. But you really are jumping into the deep-end of the pool.
Not sure I understand you correctly cman, but I can explain myself a bit better perhaps. there are certain situations which arise where I basically know/feel as though There is something there that I should pay attention to do, and if/when/as i do i know more, so that the doing and the knowing-what-to-do seem to work together, all at once. Thyere's more to it than that but that part goes beyond what you said here as I see it, and begins to take the shape of things happening rather than things being said.
and no - no clear-cut "voice" and yet it's all very clear.
Beyond speaking and hearing, knowing and feeling is certainly spiritual.
Of course the main dilemma in this line of reasoning, is that the Bible says that believing is necessarry - and this line of reasoning slams the door entirely on shut on any further thought. I do know that if you simply do not believe it, you have made yourself correct, in that you have made all the manifestation of spirit impossible for you.
And whoever told me that God will work with you on this stuff if you try it was right.
Hi Gen, that was me who said God will work with you if you try it. He is, after all, the Teacher. As much as we might want to learn, or not want to learn, he wants to teach us more than we want to learn.
One can teach another how to walk in what is being referred to here as "The Other 6 Manifestations." We have a fundamental problem here in this discussion because of the terms we're using - not our fault, it was the way we were taught. That is to say, there are no other 6 manifestations; there is only THE manifestation of the Spirit, & it is given to every man according to his believing. There are 9 ways this manifestation of the Spirit is energized - all at God's option - but, as we have discussed, God is more willing to energize than we are ready to receive the energizing. Wierwille pointed this out, but continued to use the 9 manifestations terminology, a practice (using unbiblical terminology) that was patently against his own professed principles of working the Word, yet he did so - with the usually suspected horrible results. To discuss the usual suspects is vital, but off topic - shucks. Maybe later.
Anyway, it IS possible to teach another how to walk via the Spirit without there being any manipulation involved. I did this with a young woman/girl, what the freak, we were kids, back in NY. It was supposedly a NoNo to do so, but I thought that was a crock because that was basically how all of us learned back in NY.
Anyway, this young woman was - well, let's put it this way - when she walked into a place, all the guys noticed her entrance, all the gals noiticed her entrance, & any spirits in the place noticed her entrance. She was beautiful, bold, & a believer, so all kinds of action started - & she really didn't know what the hell was going on. So, I taught her. We would do stuff like go to Greenwich Village (didn't I already share this?), hang out for a while getting comfortable with the place, tell God to drop the veil, & watch and engage in the spiritual "life of the place." Spirits are pompous and prideful and generally can't resist strutting their stuff. It was all rather fun and fascinating, & we learned a lot. Besides the particulars (it's just amazing walking this way), we learned the basic ground rules - then we didn't feel like idiots with power who didn't know how to use it. When we got tired of dealing, we'd ask God to put the veil back down, He would, & we'd talk about what happened.
Like I said, God is more willing to teach us than we want to learn. It's different for sure, but it is not like rocket science figuring it out. I mean you either engage because you want to & God says you can, or you argue about whether it is possible to do so.
VP came to NY in 1972 to do an Advanced Class. It wasn't scheduled. He did so because we were all generally already experiencing all the various (9) ways God can energize the Spirit.
Did he want to teach us more perfectly how to walk with the Teacher (God) teaching us? Or did he want to control what was happening & strenthen his role as the teacher? Some combination of both? I don't know. Really, I don't care. Point is God can teach us, & we can work with him & each other in learning how to walk behind the veil - where we already are spiritially.
Gen-2, Wierwille proably took info from Lee Vale, Jock Edwin Stiles, and Brian George(I think or else Gregory) Leonard, Smith Wigglesworth, Lester Sumrall(most likely), Sam Storms, David Ireland, Oral Roberts, and Dennis Bennett on defintions of the 9 spiritual gifts. Most of these books are from Whitaker House Publishing. I haven't found any writings from Rufus Mosley. Other books on "Holy Spirit" in part or full are by Billy Graham, Watchman Nee, John wimber, Nicky Gumbel, Kay Warren and Thomas Holiday(Saddleback Church), Richard Bewes/Paul Blackman/Rico Tice, Rob Weber, Michael Green, Neil Anderson, Charles and Frances Hunter(healing). btw, Episcopal Book of Common Prayer/Book of Occasional Services, Lutheran Book of Worship Occassional Services, Evagelical Lutheran Worship Leaders Desk Edition, Presbyterian Book of Common Worship, and United Methodist Book of Worship= all have Healing Services.
Although I have no idea who many of those people are Thomas, I get the general idea there. I think the cinch for me was chasing some links left by Waysider that led me to nearly identical versions of "How to become a Christian" So the question after that point for me wasn't about whether or not VPW plagarized others (he did), but whether the information was correct in spite of the fact that he didn't originate the thoughts.
Anyways, I realized the reason I had stalled out was because I was holding the wrong ideas. I had been viewing each manifestation as some sort of individual personal accomplishment of believing. nothing could have been further from the truth.
So I just started making some rather kid-like demands of God. this led to me going out and playing test-pilot with some of this. and yeah, God really is the one doing the driving (sort of. that's a prespective thing) but I'm the one agreeing to go on the flight. I'm learning that I'm not the one who gets to call out the course though, and that it's not all about me doing this, or me doing that, but almost more about me having to decide how long I can hang on to the bar. I can also say that it can get sort of scary sometimes and that God is something I never imagined before - enthusiastic.
Anyways I had a thought of a Dad teaching his kid to ride a bike. And it struck me that the training wheels are on. Even so I seem to be falling over pretty easy. A lot. I wanna learn how to ride this Bike better though. Now I already feel dumb and open to people's sniping at me about this as it is here. So I don't think I'll be revisiting this thread for a while. because I don't want to have to try to defend what I'm saying here, I'm not sure I'd know how. It seems like this is more of a doing thing than an intellectual thing anyways.
Gen-2, meant no disrepect to you. I was simply pointing out that Wierwille obviously was familar with other authors' writings on the subject of the various gifts/manifestations/operations of the Holy Spirit and falsely claimed that he received such information by revelation. I gave the full names of Stiles and Leonard which is usually not mentioned.
Gen-2, meant no disrepect to you. I was simply pointing out that Wierwille obviously was familar with other authors' writings on the subject of the various gifts/manifestations/operations of the Holy Spirit and falsely claimed that he received such information by revelation. I gave the full names of Stiles and Leonard which is usually not mentioned.
Yes Thomas, I know. I'm sorry if I didn't make my brief reply clearer. I went back and read it and realised it could have been taken that way. I may have done something similar with another person over in politics. Anyways I'm not dissing you either. I just concede the point on Weirwille not originating the stuff. Some people when they turn on a light switch don't care about all the Physics and Theory behind electrical power and how that light is operated, but they just know that when you hit the switch the light comes on and that's enough for them about that for that day.
I'm probably not going to ever collect the works of those men. The men from whom VPW plagarised. There are sufficient voices on the net who have stated that VPW plagarised this, and they also offer proof.
My dad left Way Stuff in the Attic of his place that made it through a few of the Hurricanes that took off parts of the roof back in 2004. One of those things A "Green Book" has inside of it a Pamphlet titled "How to become a Christian" - the copyright of it predates Weirwille's "The New Dynamic Church" buy several decades and is nearly ripped off - word for word - in an enclosed Chapter.
I didn't mean to come off as dismissive of you Thomas and I apologise.
You have a saddle, a chain, handlebars, pedals, wheels, tires, brakes, gears and gear levers without which the bike is useless; and parts that you don't use so often but which are still necessary: a bell, lights, perhaps a basket or panniers...
Sure you could learn how each one worked correctly. You still wouldn't be learning to ride a bike until you used all the parts correctly, all together, working properly to make one powerful and useful item.
If you want to ride your spiritual bike, you need all the parts, too.
One can teach another how to walk in what is being referred to here as "The Other 6 Manifestations." We have a fundamental problem here in this discussion because of the terms we're using - not our fault, it was the way we were taught. That is to say, there are no other 6 manifestations; there is only THE manifestation of the Spirit, & it is given to every man according to his believing. There are 9 ways this manifestation of the Spirit is energized - all at God's option - but, as we have discussed, God is more willing to energize than we are ready to receive the energizing. Wierwille pointed this out, but continued to use the 9 manifestations terminology, a practice (using unbiblical terminology) that was patently against his own professed principles of working the Word...
But hey, Tom, what a great idea - break it down, and teach it as separate classes - hook 'em in with SIT then another cute little class called TIP (ha ha, interesting name) which was "fun" with practice sessions. By now they're well and truly hooked and you can smack 'em for a big payout on the Advanced Class. All part of the MLM strategy.
You have a saddle, a chain, handlebars, pedals, wheels, tires, brakes, gears and gear levers without which the bike is useless; and parts that you don't use so often but which are still necessary: a bell, lights, perhaps a basket or panniers...
Sure you could learn how each one worked correctly. You still wouldn't be learning to ride a bike until you used all the parts correctly, all together, working properly to make one powerful and useful item.
If you want to ride your spiritual bike, you need all the parts, too.
Oh I can't resist ,.... Twinky hand me the Pokémon cards, I need to clothespin them into the spokes!
And if you want a W of Wisdom class, and you abbreviate it as WIZ, please keep it away dfrom the TIP >SNICKER<
But hey, Tom, what a great idea - break it down, and teach it as separate classes - hook 'em in with SIT then another cute little class called TIP (ha ha, interesting name) which was "fun" with practice sessions. By now they're well and truly hooked and you can smack 'em for a big payout on the Advanced Class. All part of the MLM strategy.
Nah, you think it is a good idea - you put a class together warning people. It would probably sell better. I never thought people should be charged for the truth.
My opinion is that for most people - certainly for me. the Way and splinter groups fall on their sword on this issue.
I've never seen anyone able to teach anyone else "How To" operate the Revelation or Power Manifestations - to the point where they could do those with the same confidence or apparent result that they seemed to have with Speaking in Tongues. Interpretation and Prophecy.
I've asked the same question. "where's the beef?" Even to the most maniacal ex-follower.. It looks nice, it sounds nice.. what does it actually DO? Asides from a lot of talk- and isn't that all tongues with interpretation and prophecy were?
This was the point to the Way's Advanced Class - more or less, or so I have imagined, yet there was never a big crowd out following a man doing copious signs miracles & wonders, that I can recall hearing about, running loose in public, in our day and time. And no, I don't mean supposed healings that happen in back rooms - (compare with accounts in Acts or Jesus in the Gospels).
I've seen "miracles" happen right in the light of day.. and they did NOT advertise herr vicster, or da word like they think it hasn't been known since dinosaurs roamed the earth..
I never took "classes",... so I don't know what you all here know, were taught. Is there something I should go sign up for somewhere? Or is that just a rather pointless proposition. Are we to do the same works & greater than, or was that idea and the verse it sprang from simply a delusion?
My vote is on the last proposition..
Where did they go, the other six manifestations? Did the classes concerning them only talk a good game about them, supplying info on them? or did they actually teach anyone "how-to-do- them" ?
if anything, for me, the classes and how to did more to stifle any real spirituality rather than develop it.. just put it in a small box, where the creator has to obey the right kind of rules to get any attention..
This is a question I've had for a long time. I thought about it somet5imes when I was a Marine in Afghanistan & Iraq, when people were shooting at me. I have a Bunch of dead friends that could have used a miracle. Sure I'm a bit Jaded at God and the people that got me started on believing in Him and a ministry that started my Parents off to believe in that and teach it to me.
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spectrum49
And now, a post concerning the manifestations. Please remember though, this is "my take" on them... A word to begin with: As Gen-2 has indicated so many times, the physical and spiritual realms are
geisha779
Some of the accounts in the OT make me laugh. You have God in Exodus 20 telling Moses I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Seems God is taking credit here
year2027
God first thanks Gen-2 yes my friend we can understand tongues by dreams but can we understand the serpent by understanding God Eve was tempted by serpent but was she really tempted or was a l
year2027
God last and first
Other nine what other means!
02-21-2010
As make a demand on my spirit to hear the “other” because I understand about things but not all things. Can I even ask myself these are more than I have any right to know? I get nothing and something that image but more illusions than ecumenical or a hermeneutic personal belief.
My short coming come because my lack of understanding in the words they play on like how they play on nine. But God never said there has to be nine or their less than any number at all.
Understand me we have one God and many Gods and we have one spirit and many. We are part of God and we lay aside of God because are not in spirit form yet.
We have many manifestations and one as we operate one we operate many. The spirit light shines from one light or many? You see the one you operate causes the others to shine because you can have one without the others.
Nine no 18 and 27 and so on but it goes both directions. But I am not going talk that unless asked. I will end with many and lest thank you very must with love and a holy kiss Roy.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
What did I kill a tread by adding to get?
what is life but a dream?
what other but the other?
what are nine but eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, ten, -o, -1, and the other numbers?
what is a dream?
what is real?
we ask these questing because we want to learn
everybody has different answer.
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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nandon
They are fake.
Just like speaking in tounges. It's fake, it's not real, it's made up in our minds.
It doesn't mean that these things can't happen, but we do not have the ability to control these super powers, or manifestations.
Imagine a group of people who start to take the TV show heros seriously, and start reading into the script and trying to unlock the super powers these people have.
That is how the manifestations were taught in TWI.
But like you said, there has never been anyone who has done any of these miracles on a consistent basis.
I believe that teaching super powers to people is a very manipulative practice.
Only God can dictate when these events are going to happen.
As for speaking in SIT's, I think its fake, because I can't prove that it's real. And i do believe that is a valid reason to not believe something, I don't think God wants us to be blind idiot followers of an idiotic religion.
But i am probably wrong.....
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Mark Sanguinetti
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Gen-2, Wierwille proably took info from Lee Vale, Jock Edwin Stiles, and Brian George(I think or else Gregory) Leonard, Smith Wigglesworth, Lester Sumrall(most likely), Sam Storms, David Ireland, Oral Roberts, and Dennis Bennett on defintions of the 9 spiritual gifts. Most of these books are from Whitaker House Publishing. I haven't found any writings from Rufus Mosley. Other books on "Holy Spirit" in part or full are by Billy Graham, Watchman Nee, John wimber, Nicky Gumbel, Kay Warren and Thomas Holiday(Saddleback Church), Richard Bewes/Paul Blackman/Rico Tice, Rob Weber, Michael Green, Neil Anderson, Charles and Frances Hunter(healing). btw, Episcopal Book of Common Prayer/Book of Occasional Services, Lutheran Book of Worship Occassional Services, Evagelical Lutheran Worship Leaders Desk Edition, Presbyterian Book of Common Worship, and United Methodist Book of Worship= all have Healing Services.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
this fruit should talk about with gifts
Gal 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
and this has a lot about emotions
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
i been reading "Spinoza" on A Theologico-Political Treatise, by Benedict de Spinoza, [1883], at sacred-texts.com
CHAPTER I.—OF PROPHECY
you might look great light
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Gen-2
Of course the main dilemma in this line of reasoning, is that the Bible says that believing is necessarry - and this line of reasoning slams the door entirely on shut on any further thought. I do know that if you simply do not believe it, you have made yourself correct, in that you have made all the manifestation of spirit impossible for you.
And whoever told me that God will work with you on this stuff if you try it was right.
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cman
The Tongue of the Spirit is what is being talked about I hope.
Being recognized either during or after it's spoken or heard is how to see it.
Not what twi taught, but real words and verse that communicate.
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Gen-2
Not sure I understand you correctly cman, but I can explain myself a bit better perhaps. there are certain situations which arise where I basically know/feel as though There is something there that I should pay attention to do, and if/when/as i do i know more, so that the doing and the knowing-what-to-do seem to work together, all at once. Thyere's more to it than that but that part goes beyond what you said here as I see it, and begins to take the shape of things happening rather than things being said.
and no - no clear-cut "voice" and yet it's all very clear. I had the thought that it was like riding a bike in a tornado with no hands and once of being protected from my stupidity. well that probably doesn't make sense too much. but my initial objective was to go and DO, and I've been doing so. I'm not at all of the belief that there are nine seperate "manifestations" anymore. and it just seems to be that it all goes almost at once as it's needed. But you really are jumping into the deep-end of the pool.
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cman
That is a good way to put it Gen-2.
Beyond speaking and hearing, knowing and feeling is certainly spiritual.
Even more then these are active or can be.....
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Tom
Hi Gen, that was me who said God will work with you if you try it. He is, after all, the Teacher. As much as we might want to learn, or not want to learn, he wants to teach us more than we want to learn.
One can teach another how to walk in what is being referred to here as "The Other 6 Manifestations." We have a fundamental problem here in this discussion because of the terms we're using - not our fault, it was the way we were taught. That is to say, there are no other 6 manifestations; there is only THE manifestation of the Spirit, & it is given to every man according to his believing. There are 9 ways this manifestation of the Spirit is energized - all at God's option - but, as we have discussed, God is more willing to energize than we are ready to receive the energizing. Wierwille pointed this out, but continued to use the 9 manifestations terminology, a practice (using unbiblical terminology) that was patently against his own professed principles of working the Word, yet he did so - with the usually suspected horrible results. To discuss the usual suspects is vital, but off topic - shucks. Maybe later.
Anyway, it IS possible to teach another how to walk via the Spirit without there being any manipulation involved. I did this with a young woman/girl, what the freak, we were kids, back in NY. It was supposedly a NoNo to do so, but I thought that was a crock because that was basically how all of us learned back in NY.
Anyway, this young woman was - well, let's put it this way - when she walked into a place, all the guys noticed her entrance, all the gals noiticed her entrance, & any spirits in the place noticed her entrance. She was beautiful, bold, & a believer, so all kinds of action started - & she really didn't know what the hell was going on. So, I taught her. We would do stuff like go to Greenwich Village (didn't I already share this?), hang out for a while getting comfortable with the place, tell God to drop the veil, & watch and engage in the spiritual "life of the place." Spirits are pompous and prideful and generally can't resist strutting their stuff. It was all rather fun and fascinating, & we learned a lot. Besides the particulars (it's just amazing walking this way), we learned the basic ground rules - then we didn't feel like idiots with power who didn't know how to use it. When we got tired of dealing, we'd ask God to put the veil back down, He would, & we'd talk about what happened.
Like I said, God is more willing to teach us than we want to learn. It's different for sure, but it is not like rocket science figuring it out. I mean you either engage because you want to & God says you can, or you argue about whether it is possible to do so.
VP came to NY in 1972 to do an Advanced Class. It wasn't scheduled. He did so because we were all generally already experiencing all the various (9) ways God can energize the Spirit.
Did he want to teach us more perfectly how to walk with the Teacher (God) teaching us? Or did he want to control what was happening & strenthen his role as the teacher? Some combination of both? I don't know. Really, I don't care. Point is God can teach us, & we can work with him & each other in learning how to walk behind the veil - where we already are spiritially.
Tom
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Gen-2
Although I have no idea who many of those people are Thomas, I get the general idea there. I think the cinch for me was chasing some links left by Waysider that led me to nearly identical versions of "How to become a Christian" So the question after that point for me wasn't about whether or not VPW plagarized others (he did), but whether the information was correct in spite of the fact that he didn't originate the thoughts.
Anyways, I realized the reason I had stalled out was because I was holding the wrong ideas. I had been viewing each manifestation as some sort of individual personal accomplishment of believing. nothing could have been further from the truth.
So I just started making some rather kid-like demands of God. this led to me going out and playing test-pilot with some of this. and yeah, God really is the one doing the driving (sort of. that's a prespective thing) but I'm the one agreeing to go on the flight. I'm learning that I'm not the one who gets to call out the course though, and that it's not all about me doing this, or me doing that, but almost more about me having to decide how long I can hang on to the bar. I can also say that it can get sort of scary sometimes and that God is something I never imagined before - enthusiastic.
Anyways I had a thought of a Dad teaching his kid to ride a bike. And it struck me that the training wheels are on. Even so I seem to be falling over pretty easy. A lot. I wanna learn how to ride this Bike better though. Now I already feel dumb and open to people's sniping at me about this as it is here. So I don't think I'll be revisiting this thread for a while. because I don't want to have to try to defend what I'm saying here, I'm not sure I'd know how. It seems like this is more of a doing thing than an intellectual thing anyways.
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waysider
If something requires "believing" to operate, it might be a good idea to, first, examine the validity of "believing".
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cman
And you are doing, Gen-2.
I appreciate it.
The intellectuals will may help,
but mostly there is a stop sign it seems.
Cause we are beyond intellect by direct, clear, knowing,
that we could not have come up with ourselves.
Even that will grow and change, both now, and more, is truth.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Gen-2, meant no disrepect to you. I was simply pointing out that Wierwille obviously was familar with other authors' writings on the subject of the various gifts/manifestations/operations of the Holy Spirit and falsely claimed that he received such information by revelation. I gave the full names of Stiles and Leonard which is usually not mentioned.
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Gen-2
Yes Thomas, I know. I'm sorry if I didn't make my brief reply clearer. I went back and read it and realised it could have been taken that way. I may have done something similar with another person over in politics. Anyways I'm not dissing you either. I just concede the point on Weirwille not originating the stuff. Some people when they turn on a light switch don't care about all the Physics and Theory behind electrical power and how that light is operated, but they just know that when you hit the switch the light comes on and that's enough for them about that for that day.
I'm probably not going to ever collect the works of those men. The men from whom VPW plagarised. There are sufficient voices on the net who have stated that VPW plagarised this, and they also offer proof.
My dad left Way Stuff in the Attic of his place that made it through a few of the Hurricanes that took off parts of the roof back in 2004. One of those things A "Green Book" has inside of it a Pamphlet titled "How to become a Christian" - the copyright of it predates Weirwille's "The New Dynamic Church" buy several decades and is nearly ripped off - word for word - in an enclosed Chapter.
I didn't mean to come off as dismissive of you Thomas and I apologise.
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Twinky
Gen-2, you talk about learning to ride a bike.
You have a saddle, a chain, handlebars, pedals, wheels, tires, brakes, gears and gear levers without which the bike is useless; and parts that you don't use so often but which are still necessary: a bell, lights, perhaps a basket or panniers...
Sure you could learn how each one worked correctly. You still wouldn't be learning to ride a bike until you used all the parts correctly, all together, working properly to make one powerful and useful item.
If you want to ride your spiritual bike, you need all the parts, too.
But hey, Tom, what a great idea - break it down, and teach it as separate classes - hook 'em in with SIT then another cute little class called TIP (ha ha, interesting name) which was "fun" with practice sessions. By now they're well and truly hooked and you can smack 'em for a big payout on the Advanced Class. All part of the MLM strategy.
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Gen-2
Oh I can't resist ,.... Twinky hand me the Pokémon cards, I need to clothespin them into the spokes!
And if you want a W of Wisdom class, and you abbreviate it as WIZ, please keep it away dfrom the TIP >SNICKER<
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Twinky
That would be PFAL sign-up cards, wouldn't it?
Hey word of knowledge and word of wisdom go hand in hand... like a WIZ with a WOK...to cook up some new enchantments, no doubt.
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Tom
Nah, you think it is a good idea - you put a class together warning people. It would probably sell better. I never thought people should be charged for the truth.
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Ham
I've asked the same question. "where's the beef?" Even to the most maniacal ex-follower.. It looks nice, it sounds nice.. what does it actually DO? Asides from a lot of talk- and isn't that all tongues with interpretation and prophecy were?
I've seen "miracles" happen right in the light of day.. and they did NOT advertise herr vicster, or da word like they think it hasn't been known since dinosaurs roamed the earth..
My vote is on the last proposition..if anything, for me, the classes and how to did more to stifle any real spirituality rather than develop it.. just put it in a small box, where the creator has to obey the right kind of rules to get any attention..
I'm sorry for your friends.. and for your loss.
I have a few different beliefs regarding this..
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waysider
"The other six"---assuming there are nine total.
Let's do the math, shall we?
Manifestation of Believing
I vote for bogus----That's 11.1% of the nine.
Discerning of spirits
Ditto----That's 22.2%
Speaking in tongues
Ditto---That's 33.3%
Tongues with interpretation
Ditto---That's 44.4%
Prophesy
Ditto---That's 55.5%
It ain't lookin' too good.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
the box is your problem
you must think outside the scripture while thinking above it to
you must move outside, within, and more ways one can write on paper
and then you see all twelve working together
and i know VPW thinks there only nine
pain and love is the key to all
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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