About 4 months after I got involved in the Word, I remember wondering where the power was. I was standing out in a thunder storm at HQ in Ohio. If you've ever been in a bad thunderstorm in Ohio, you know it is like there are bombs going off all around you. I stood there getting soaking wet yelling at God. Then I went to someone I knew who had been around for longer than I and asked him why we didn't know anyone who had all 9 operating. He said he was & so were quite a few others. We were from NY & it was 1972. Not too many places in the Way had things happening like we did in NY in those days - CA, KS.
Shortly after that I knew what it was to have God energizing all 9. There are many others.
We exchanged experiences. We practiced. It worked.
Miracles? Many. You see them? Many of them - not all. No one saw the man possessed with a legion healed - except the man. But others, yes, you see them.
It's really much easier when you're around people who are doing it. Then it is not perceived as all this or that. Then it happens. Still mighty impressive sometimes. Just not a total surprise - I mean, you're expecting it, right?
Okay thanks Tom, and I mean that. You see, I feel sort like that guy standing there getting soaking wet yelling at God. ~ at this point.
And I think it can happen myself, that's what I think. You said "It's really much easier when you're around people who are doing it." and I don't doubt that, but I haven't had the pleasure either.. I do know that when you're around people who think it's not possible, that it isn't for them. I'm still right where I started this thread out at, but I did take some encouragement from your post Tom.
Cause the manifestation of spirit is not to be taken lightly.
It will take you to places you have not been and never intended or thought of.
To grasp the Double edged sword of flame and gut yourself with it.
The man's will? Not hardly. My will can take me where it wills.
The spirit will do the same.
To the depths of hell inside yourself, to heights of heavens unseen.
Soon to see both are in the spirit to see the unseen.
Few are ready to become dead to themselves to see life.
You said something about the double-egged sword (well you mentioned it...). Swords have handles and if someone wants to gut themselves, I, most likely, can't stop them. I remember when My Dad gave my brother his first Razor. He kept looking like the "Poster Boy" of Nicks and Cuts. Razors have handles too. Sometimes you just have to "gut yourself" a few times to learn how to shave, eh?
I bought a Ladder at Home Depot this weekend. It has 11 safety warning stickers on it (I counted). I managed to change the big long flouescent bulb in my Kitchen without succumbing to any of the terrors those stickers described. Yes it's a lighthearted poke at you cman but since you don't seem to wish me well at all, I just thought I'd make that point.
Yeah, I know the place. I've been there, Sorry if you got scared or hurt. I love people that presume I'm some wallflower.
God knows what I want already,... I don't need to keep asking. Still I'm welcoming the thoughts of others here.
I don't know where you get these ideas about me towards you.
Is it because you do not understand my sayings, that you think it's an attack of a sort.
Far from the truth of the matter.
But if the flaming sword is handled it will consume the holder with it's flame.
Till you let go.
Well cman, I'm asking. I'm knocking. Here in this forum I'm soliciting your opinions to see if I'm missing something.
Your replies have been rather legalistic. What to do - do not, warning away that I could gut myself etc maybe I'm just reading your words. They don't come supplied with *intent* but you definitely imply that I'm wandering into danger by asing to be given what God Promises. ...that the gift is bad.
Luke 11
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
The closest I could find to "gutting oneself" was this, but the guy involved wasn't exactly asking God
Acts 19
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 insomuch that unto the sick were carried away from his body handkerchiefs or aprons, and the evil spirits went out. 13 But certain also of the strolling Jews, exorcists, took upon them to name over them that had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, who did this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said unto them, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and mastered both of them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
So your most recent remark,... This "consume",... you're saying it's a bad thing or a good thing? You tell me.
You make it sound as if you think God gives harmful things.
Re-read your words and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see that this would be the most common view of them.
After all, you're warning me away from what God has to give, saying I can be gutted and consumed...
And then I look at what the Bible says about God giving to his children
Really different approaches there, don't you think?
Gen-2, I will give you my take on where the miracles went, because you are right - they are not in operation anymore.
I know many people will disagree with me, but I will tell you why I believe they are not in operation anymore. For a little background, I believe the Bible, as I've read it over the years, is essentially, a book of prophecy. It concerns a coming Redeemer (Christ), and a coming Kingdom on earth (the Kingdom - which for our purposes here, includes the New City Jerusalem which Abraham looked for - it will be part of this Kingdom). Ok, so:
1. The OT prophesies Messiah will come.
2. Gospels - Messiah arrives. His ministry is to the JEWS ONLY. This is important. He does miracles - which are signs to Israel. They show and prove that he is the prophesised Messiah. Also, here comes another important part:
3. Messiah/Jesus preaches what? He preaches to the Jews: The Kingdom is at hand, all is ready. Believe on me (note: in the OT, for the Kingdom to arrive, all Israel must turn to the Messiah and he will bring in the Kingdom). So - its here!
4. Jesus is rejected and killed by his people.
5. But, he has 12 Apostles who were commissioned to preach Jesus - to the Jew first.
6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel.
If you continue to read Acts, those who believed had the Holy spirit in them. They did signs and miracles.
Why? Because they were signs that the Kingdom was at hand. Signs again to Israel. They were a foretaste of what would be normal, daily life in the Kingdom walking in the power of the Holy Spirit.
The 12 Apostles were like, the last call at a bar, last chance - repent, Christ is standing on the right hand of God - the Kingdom is here. He will still return if you desire it!
So, Israel has had prophets, the Word, the Law, the King arrives, then finally - the Apostles.
After all this they say - NO.
What happens? What is God's plan for if Israel should reject their Messiah and Kingdom?
Acts 28 - Paul now begins his ministry to the Gentiles. The Kingdom is not coming. To emphasize this, the Romans come destroy the Temple, Jews are scattered.
A new administration begins. All of Pauls NT writings: Romans, Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians were written BEFORE Acts 28. The Kingdom and signs were still being done, in fact they were so common, Paul has to tell them in Corinthians - whoa dudes, here's how to handle them! At this point believing Gentiles are also "grafted" into Israel's hope.
What was Israel's Hope? The Messiah and the Kingdom. In Acts 26 Paul still says, I preach nothing but the Hope of Israel. During Acts, Gentiles were, by grace, allowed to partake of this Hope.
So, how did Paul go, from healing people, to leaving Melitius at Trophimas sick, to Timothy being sickly, to a total lack of miracles? What happened, why did they stop and he wasn't healing people anymore?
Different administration - beginning in Acts 28:26, where the prophecy for the third time is cited: hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see, etc... I go to the Gentiles.
It was after the book of Acts, after Israel has rejected the final offer, in the prison Epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, I and II Timothy, Philemon and Titus) that Paul has a revelation from God - the cherry on top.
It is: God has called a people who will people heaven. In Ephesians we are told we have Power. We do not need the "signs" for Israel anymore since the prophetic clock has stopped and Christ is now building a "new man" - a "new creation." Whose home will be in the heavenlies. The believer's hope in this day and age is: Heaven. Our hope is not the earthly Kingdom - that is Israel's.
Once the "days of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, in Revelation God will then deal again with Israel and Gentile - for the final time. This time Israel will all call upon the Lord.
I believe one of the reasons that later "all Asia" turned away from Paul was because they thought this new revelation was nuts. And, because it was new and had been kept secret - Paul could not prove it out of scripture. There is no OT prophecy of God taking a Gentile people to abide with him in Heaven. Boy, that sounded nuts. So, they turned away.
That's a nutshell, but you are right. The manifestations are not here anymore. They will be when Israel finally does repent and they enter into the Kingdom on Earth.
We do have Holy Spirit, Power, which functions differently to us in this age of Grace, of which I could speak more on, but not here. That is an amazing study to do some other time.
Ok, that's my take. I'm quite happy having a personal relationship with my Christ :)
Gen-2 I could be wrong, but I think that cman is not warning you about the spirit being something that is bad or can harm you. I think he's saying the same thing that Elisha warned Elijah about when Elijah wanted double the portion of spirit. I'm not about to look up the quote, but in essence Elisha told his young apprentice that what he was asking was too much for him and not something to be taken lightly.
I may be wrong, but I think the point that cman is trying to give a friendly warning in his typical minimalist fashion.
He's not saying, "The spirit will hurt you," so much as he's saying, "The spirit is one badazz muthafukkah who doesn't do party tricks."
Now - I could be completely wrong here... but I'm fairly certain cman is not being combative.
Perhaps you missed that, but it is descriptive enough, for now.
There is a time for everything.
And these experiences will happen, no doubt.
Is there bad or wrong associated with these terms?
Sure.
What about the good that you pointed out in your recent verses.
Just what is involved in spirit?
Something you handle in your own hands?
By your own doing?
Thank you cman. I wasn't trying to kick you. Well, crap, okay,... that's not entirely honest. What I mean is I wan't trying to kick you personally, But I was trying to kick you into saying something I understood better. I was fairly sure I wasn't getting what you meant - because you tried to explain or clarify the second time and people that are just being mean to you don't really ever bother.
You said ..."Perhaps you missed that,..." Indeed I did. Perhaps I do not know everything you know, eh? It's why I'm asking. I very much appreciate your replies cman. Do not take my frustration for ingratitude please. In my termsI'd say,... I realize God's gift isn't a tinker toy. and that once I decide to use it - it opens a different realm, the spiritual one. The power in that is great and I have no plans to be stupid with it.
Thank you for being patient enough to keep answering me until I began to see!
Gen-2 I could be wrong, but I think that cman is not warning you about the spirit being something that is bad or can harm you. I think he's saying the same thing that Elisha warned Elijah about when Elijah wanted double the portion of spirit. I'm not about to look up the quote, but in essence Elisha told his young apprentice that what he was asking was too much for him and not something to be taken lightly.
I may be wrong, but I think the point that cman is trying to give a friendly warning in his typical minimalist fashion.
He's not saying, "The spirit will hurt you," so much as he's saying, "The spirit is one badazz muthafukkah who doesn't do party tricks."
Now - I could be completely wrong here... but I'm fairly certain cman is not being combative.
Thanks Doojable. I can be a real pest yanno? ...^^^I think you're right^^^...
... 6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel.
Excuse me for “butting in” Sunesis, but if you look more carefully in Acts, Peter does say “repent”, but he DOES NOT use the phrase “the Kingdom is at hand”.
This phrase (actually, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”) is found UNIQUELY in the Gospels (Matt – John), and does not pertain to our Administration of Grace:
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Mt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.…
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Four verses later, we see that John baptized those (who were willing to repent) in the river Jordan:
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…6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
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The following shows that Jesus first began to use that same phrase himself after John was cast into prison – and soon afterwards was beheaded. Jesus merely “picked up where John left off”. (According to OT prophesy, John came to “prepare the way for Jesus”.):
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Mt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
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It is also interesting to note that Jesus did this “beyond Jordan”. This is (of course) true in the geographical sense, but for those who are “listening spiritually” it is also an indication that he went "beyond water baptism”, (Jesus, having been baptized of John, accomplished this for us that we need not repeat it, for it is already “embodied” in what we have inherently within our “spiritual nature”, upon being born again)
Also, technically speaking, we have no King. (As you had also indicated in so many words, “the Kingdom is yet future”.) It was interrupted in the Gospel period when Jesus was crucified, and the sign "mocking him" was posted above his head, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS".
And we are not Jews – we have no King. What we have NOW is the "body of Christ", made up of Jews AND Gentiles. It is neither one in particular, for we are considered as “equal” in the body. Later (in Revelation), Jesus will return to set up his Kingdom.
Near the end, he returns as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" ready to battle. And at the very end, God Himself (as KING OVERALL) judges from His throne.
Therefore, the Kingdom is NOT “at hand” during our time.
Basically what Sunesis and doojable said. . . . In another thread, discussion was about the miracles in the gospel accounts. That they can't be replicated. They defy reason.
Miracles are a sign from God to point to something. They are for that specific time and a specific place . . . in the gospels it was for Jesus ministry. So we would know He was who He said He was, and who sent Him. There were plenty of so-called Messiahs. If you look at the miracles of Jesus they all lead up to the GREATEST miracle. . . . the resurrection. For the Apostles . . . they were to establish and authenticate the church. They were not the only people trying to start a church. Lots of letters . . . lots of visions. . . . lots of theology.
I think. . . and just my rambling here. . . we have to be careful what we seek after. . . . many of us paid money to learn to operate what we were told were the manifestations of the power of the HS. We took a class and it wasn't free. We PAID for this supposed knowledge.
There actually was someone who tried to buy the power of the HS. He became the father of Simony. Simon Magus. There is a fair amount written about him. It is said he did manifest power. He had a following. Denied the Lord similar to how we did in TWI. He was quite the cult leader. As an aside, it is recorded that he died trying to fly.
VP taught that Simon became a Christian. NO NO NO!!!! The church, Peter especially, were opposed to Simon. Similar to how the church opposes TWI. It was not one big happy family. You have to wonder about VP teaching that Simon was saved. IMO that runs deep.
There were many people like him(Simon) but he is included in Acts chapter 8, which shows us the difference between one who says they believe and one who truly does.
We just want to be sure, given what we were tricked into with TWI . .. we are still not dwelling there?
I'm careful in what I ask for. . . . I too am content with the Lord, what He asks of me, and what He supplies me with when I do as He asks. It is enough. That doesn't mean miracles don't happen ( 2004 Red Sox!!). . . . . . . but really, they are always for God's glory.
And now, a post concerning the manifestations. Please remember though, this is "my take" on them...
A word to begin with: As Gen-2 has indicated so many times, the physical and spiritual realms are closely related, as can be seen in nature, science and physics, etc.
I believe (and will show) that the list of manifestations in 1Co 12:8-10 is in this order for a special (and very logical) reason:
1. word of wisdom
2. word of knowledge
3. faith
4. gifts of healing
5. working of miracles
6. prophecy
7. discerning of spirits
“Word of Wisdom” (spiritual) is not unlike “wisdom” (in the natural sense). The same is true concerning “Word of Knowledge” and "knowledge itself". Their definitions may be found in many places in the Bible. For instance:
Pr 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Basically, being wise is to “obey instruction”, or simply “to do what God has said is right” - that which you presently understand. God will not hold you accountable for what you have yet to learn.
And there is a logical reason “wisdom” is listed first:
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Pr 8:20 [in the context, wisdom "says":] I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
A good example of wisdom is how all was fine with Adam until he transgressed. Simply, he disobeyed by doing the only thing God had said not to do. According to Prov 8:33 (above), he acted "foolishly instead of wisely".
Word of Knowledge is bacially “detailed information”, just like knowledge we receive by reading books or studying in school, etc. By this manifestation, God can reveal particular details about something we need to be aware of..
And there is is a reason it is listed second:
Note: For those who were in TWI, we always heard the phrase “Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom….” Then they went on to explain that wisdom is in the “second place” by saying “wisdom is applied knowledge”. In a logical sense this is true, but for our purposes here, it is OUT OF ORDER. You never see their “phrase” in the Bible! When both are mentioned, wisdom is always first and knowledge is after. Here are 3, and there are many more:
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Ec 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge…
2Ch 1:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee…
A good example of this is the account of Noah. He received some very detailed information about what would happen to the world (the flood), and specifically what to do in building the ark. (what kind of wood to use, exact dimensions, how to waterproof it [with "pitch"], what to put into it, etc.) In all, there are 14 entire verses of information!
And why did he get this? Simple! He was the ONLY ONE continuing to OBEY what was right (wisdom is first), while the rest of the world was “screwing up”:
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (except for Noah: Ge 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD".)
When we are obedient, (wisdom) we keep ourselves in the position so as to be able to receive this sort of information (knowledge) from God when we need it - just like Noah did. It's that simple!
Faith (believing) is third. It is basically “taking action” on what we know:
Heb 11:8 By [the manifestation of] faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham did not have any details, except TO LEAVE - and we just read his departing was considered as faith. (As he went, he learned the details.)
So far, in short –
1. We do what we know is right. (wisdom)
2. We therefore get details (knowledge) when we need them.
3. And then we act. (believing, or faith)
This is logical, and in order. Let me dispense with all the verbage and “cut to the chase”:
The result of this “algorithm” is Healing – 4th. God has set up things so they take course naturally when applied, the way He designed things to work normally in life, or even spiritually. We follow the "rules" and get the "results".
However, He can go beyond the “natural” with “supernatural” – Hence, Miracles – 5th.
A broken bone may heal in time (six weeks or so), but God has a way to “speed up the natural process”, so to speak, so it will mend immediately. This is a “miracle”.
Prophecy is 6th. Basically, you can “predict your future”, by simply repeating what you did which worked before, because it will work like that “every time”. It's sort of like using "mass production", once the "prototype" is established.
“Short summary” thus far (1-6): Do right. Get details. Act. Get results – even supernatual results if needed. It will work tomorrow just as it did today.
The 7th one is Discerning of Spirits. Once you have “the ball rolling” (as we have seen), the “last hurdle” is overcoming "the enemy" who will be “pulling out all the stops” to attempt to thwart your efforts – to make you quit. But as you become wise to “his bag of tricks”, you just “keep on keeping on”. When we sucessfully "resist him" - he MUST FLEE - he has no choice, for that is God's law!
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
I know this “analogy” seems oversimplified (and lacks proper documentation), but the truth is: To see all the details about how these work would take the Whole Bible into consideration – and every example of those who experienced these manifestations.
However, I am thankful one does not have to understand EVERY DETAIL just to "begin learning" how these work - recognizing and applying them "as they happen".
We just do what we know thus far - we start by acting wisely. Details do help though – gaining experience is accomplished by an "ever-learning process", so we are continually becoming even more proficient at doing "what is right".
I certainly hope this post will help some people. It seems to work very well for my wife & I, and I trust God would have us stop doing it this way if there was truly something wrong with it. Remember though, it is only "my logical method".
Further details are in a book I am publishing this year. (My first! Please wish me success.)
I'd just like to add that God is not stingy with the energizing of his spirit within. No, they're not just tricks for our amusement - that characterization fits energizings from evil spiritual sources with their own agenda, but God is more willing to energize than we are willing to recieve those energizings. He is "looking" for those who will believe in his willingness to be active in our lives to help us and to help others.
Yes, it is a different realm. There is much learning involved, and silliness brings consequences (you don't strike me as someone into silliness in this realm &, like you said, like the Word says, you ask God for a piece of bread, he is not going to give you a stone), but there is much grace in this realm - especially for the learner. God is into showing the learner the how of these things, just so the learner can learn if for no other immediate reason - much like Samuel with Eli when he was learning to recognize the voice of the Lord.
Back in the day, when we were first learning this stuff, many of us had some witchcrafty backgrounds, &, many of us weren't completely spiritually clean in the beginning. I remember this one fellow was sick (fellow who was very deeply into Eastern spirituality before getting into the Word). He asked this other fellow to minister healing to him, & he did, & the guy got healed. You may remember back then we were taught somewhere along the line not to lay hands on someone unless God told you to. Well, the man ministering layed hands on the man he was ministering to & was immediately blinded. The man who was ministered to turned around and ministered to the man who ministered to him, & he was healed of his blindness. Crazy stuff - didn't know what we were doing, but it all worked out. In the process, we learned how to deal in the spiritual realm & we were healed in the process.
Also, in the beginning, four of us were witnessing on the boardwalk in Long Beach, Long Island. This guy came up to us - as he did, God told me the guy was loaded, & I should be very careful what I did. I thought I was more than a conqueror, & engaged the guy in conversation - sort of forgetting what God had said in the process. Turns out the guy had been into Voodoo all his life, & was more than willing to engage us in all sorts of crazy dangerous magic to show us that his God was more powerful than our God. I'm not stupid intellectually, but pretty soon I realized that he was always a step or two ahead of me in our "conversation." He was minipulating us just exactly where he wanted us. I realized that I wasn't talking to a human, but to a spirit. I was hopelessly outmatched. As soon as you accept the invitation to engage in a proof of power, you have lost. The Adversary knows you've won already - there is no reason to prove it. It is like the Devil telliong Jesus to jump off the mountain. I avoided his manipulations into dangerous magic demonstrations, but, still I was outclassed. At one point, he pulled a hair out of the head of one of the girls who was with us & told her she would be dead in a week. I told God that this was all over my head & he should take over & do something. The guy immediately gave the hair back to the girl, said he was just funning with us, & left.
The next day I told my spiritual elder what had happened. I was sort of ....ed. I told him that I was well aquanted with dealing with all kinds of street confrontations, but felt totally ignorant of this spiritual realm, & that I needed to learn if I was going to engage in this realm. His response was that I had learned & everything had worked out fine. Well, I HAD learned a very valuable and basic lesson about engaging in power plays with the Adversary, & relying on God. Also the girl was never afraid in the least. God is a lot more ballsy than I am. Not all confrontations in those days (& there were lots of them, because we wouldn't keep out mouths shut & the Adversary was trying to scare us out of the benefits of learning to walk spiritually) were quite so dicey. Many were in the beginning, but, pretty soon we learned more about what we were doing. Bottom line, it was kick foot, & people got delivered.
God is your very personal teacher.
Go for it brother. God will open doors. Walk through & learn.
The manifestation of Believing is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may believe to bring to pass the impossible at your command according to what God has revealed to you by Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom and Discerning of Spirits. It also inspires believing in others.
It is special renewed mind believing according to WOK, WOW and DOS.-----
So, if I am to understand this correctly, it's not enough to have word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits. One must also operate this special sort of "turbo charged" believing (that is not synonymous with the "law" of believing.) in order to bring to pass the impossible on command. And, it is a "special" kind of renewed mind.
Tom, I believe the "Jesus Movement" for our generation of the '60s and 70s was a true "revival" of God so to speak. Yes, we did see miracles. I believe, like Geisha pointed out, they were by God's grace and "signs" for us - God revealed himself to us as God. Why was this important? Why did he need to do this? Because our country was in a real doldrums spiritually, churches were losing members and the occult, devil worhip (Son of Sam, Manson, hippie, Leary, drugs, free sex, tune in, turn on, drop out, influx of eastern religions - general psychedelia), and just, not very good things spiritually were on the ascendency (only it was called, the Age of Aquarius) and it was everywhere and kids were following the pied pipers the devil was sending them. God needed at that time to show to us kids that he was greater than he who runs the world. And, it seems these miracles only lasted a very short time. Most of the time, as time went on, we wondered where they were, we had heard tales of things happening, but they kind of only happened to a few. As we grew in the Word, they seemed to subside. That's why VP would have healing services and not many "big" miracles happened, excuses for him were made, and people were disappointed.
Yet, we chalked it up to, there's something wrong with us and our believing if we aren't seeing the same results as those in Acts. There must be something wrong with our walk, we are not spiritual enough. So we tried even harder. No one told us, hey, its not your fault - you're trying to live in a time that is in abayance - the wrong administration. I think that would have taken alot of weight off of our shoulders instead of trying to manifest that which was for Israel. We appropriated the wrong administration to ourselves.
I know we wanted to walk as Acts believers and VP encouraged it, but I think the reason we did not see the amazing amount of everday signs the Jews saw which were confirming the Kingdom, was because this is a different time - we are in the age of Grace, the times of the Gentiles, with a different calling and a different Hope - a Heavenly home(we are the "new man" the "new creation" to spend eternity in the heavens) - not on earth.
Tom, I believe the "Jesus Movement" for our generation of the '60s and 70s was a true "revival" of God so to speak. Yes, we did see miracles. I believe, like Geisha pointed out, they were by God's grace and "signs" for us - God revealed himself to us as God. Why was this important? Why did he need to do this? Because our country was in a real doldrums spiritually, churches were losing members and the occult, devil worhip (Son of Sam, Manson, hippie, Leary, drugs, free sex, tune in, turn on, drop out, influx of eastern religions - general psychedelia), and just, not very good things spiritually were on the ascendency (only it was called, the Age of Aquarius) and it was everywhere and kids were following the pied pipers the devil was sending them. God needed at that time to show to us kids that he was greater than he who runs the world. And, it seems these miracles only lasted a very short time. Most of the time, as time went on, we wondered where they were, we had heard tales of things happening, but they kind of only happened to a few. As we grew in the Word, they seemed to subside. That's why VP would have healing services and not many "big" miracles happened, excuses for him were made, and people were disappointed.
Yet, we chalked it up to, there's something wrong with us and our believing if we aren't seeing the same results as those in Acts. There must be something wrong with our walk, we are not spiritual enough. So we tried even harder. No one told us, hey, its not your fault - you're trying to live in a time that is in abayance - the wrong administration. I think that would have taken alot of weight off of our shoulders instead of trying to manifest that which was for Israel. We appropriated the wrong administration to ourselves.
I know we wanted to walk as Acts believers and VP encouraged it, but I think the reason we did not see the amazing amount of everday signs the Jews saw which were confirming the Kingdom, was because this is a different time - we are in the age of Grace, the times of the Gentiles, with a different calling and a different Hope - a Heavenly home(we are the "new man" the "new creation" to spend eternity in the heavens) - not on earth.
I beg to differ Sunesis, at least to the extent that the reason - always - that God energizes is to heal because we need it, & we need it no less today than we did back in the day.
The reason we stopped seeing the extent of the spiritual action was because the Adversary had made his way into the inside of the movement sufficiently to bide his time waiting for the little bit of leaven to leaven the whole lump. In retrospect, the great volume of the confrontation ceased in a moment - in the moment coinciding with the initiation of the takeover of the revival in CA, NY, &, I suppose, KS. The witness to the Way, the Lord Jesus Christ was, at that time, being supplanted by the witnessing to the Wat International Inc.
Yet, miracles still continued, & still do to this day. Wherever God is, healing happens.
There's only so much I need to or even want to pick out of here, but for the most part all of the answers to what I asked are here now.
Basically if there's te need for a miracle there's going to be someone there to believe for it and God is going to be able to deliver. The idea that God would ever Refuse to help his Kids is just alien to my brain. So I believe it is the anytime you're ready thing, that governs this, because I believe that God is always ready and that that truth doesn't change. It doesn't even really make sense to me that it could.
Believing is always the requirement.
It is funny to think this way, but when you're in a situation where spiritual power is going to be "dipped into" It's often all going to happen very quick, I think those lengthy definitions are nice to look at but matter little in the moment. I think this is what Cman was trying to tell me. It ain't no time to be goin' "Lookie what I can do!" or your gonna F up and end up having your 4$$ handed to you. You really have to believe who you are, and that God's right there with you. This manifestation of spirit is an intermix chamber of any needed aspects at the time and the end result is how they forge the reality of some desired result.
God knows what's needed when you ask and he puts it all in motion, but yeah, you'd better hold on tight and do your part. And then it's over, just like that.
I'm really gonna have to trust God and do this soon. He's just gonna have to do His part But I have to do this like within this week.
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spectrum49
And now, a post concerning the manifestations. Please remember though, this is "my take" on them... A word to begin with: As Gen-2 has indicated so many times, the physical and spiritual realms are
geisha779
Some of the accounts in the OT make me laugh. You have God in Exodus 20 telling Moses I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Seems God is taking credit here
year2027
God first thanks Gen-2 yes my friend we can understand tongues by dreams but can we understand the serpent by understanding God Eve was tempted by serpent but was she really tempted or was a l
Gen-2
Okay thanks Tom, and I mean that. You see, I feel sort like that guy standing there getting soaking wet yelling at God. ~ at this point.
And I think it can happen myself, that's what I think. You said "It's really much easier when you're around people who are doing it." and I don't doubt that, but I haven't had the pleasure either.. I do know that when you're around people who think it's not possible, that it isn't for them. I'm still right where I started this thread out at, but I did take some encouragement from your post Tom.
edited for mistakes in typing some.
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cman
Mean, would not be the word, Gen-2.
A warning, be careful what you wish for.
Cause the manifestation of spirit is not to be taken lightly.
It will take you to places you have not been and never intended or thought of.
To grasp the Double edged sword of flame and gut yourself with it.
The man's will? Not hardly. My will can take me where it wills.
The spirit will do the same.
To the depths of hell inside yourself, to heights of heavens unseen.
Soon to see both are in the spirit to see the unseen.
Few are ready to become dead to themselves to see life.
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Gen-2
You said something about the double-egged sword (well you mentioned it...). Swords have handles and if someone wants to gut themselves, I, most likely, can't stop them. I remember when My Dad gave my brother his first Razor. He kept looking like the "Poster Boy" of Nicks and Cuts. Razors have handles too. Sometimes you just have to "gut yourself" a few times to learn how to shave, eh?
I bought a Ladder at Home Depot this weekend. It has 11 safety warning stickers on it (I counted). I managed to change the big long flouescent bulb in my Kitchen without succumbing to any of the terrors those stickers described. Yes it's a lighthearted poke at you cman but since you don't seem to wish me well at all, I just thought I'd make that point.
Yeah, I know the place. I've been there, Sorry if you got scared or hurt. I love people that presume I'm some wallflower.
God knows what I want already,... I don't need to keep asking. Still I'm welcoming the thoughts of others here.
I'll try not to inhale the milk.
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doojable
Get that tongue out of your cheek, Bolshy One.
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cman
I don't know where you get these ideas about me towards you.
Is it because you do not understand my sayings, that you think it's an attack of a sort.
Far from the truth of the matter.
But if the flaming sword is handled it will consume the holder with it's flame.
Till you let go.
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Gen-2
Well cman, I'm asking. I'm knocking. Here in this forum I'm soliciting your opinions to see if I'm missing something.
Your replies have been rather legalistic. What to do - do not, warning away that I could gut myself etc maybe I'm just reading your words. They don't come supplied with *intent* but you definitely imply that I'm wandering into danger by asing to be given what God Promises. ...that the gift is bad.
Luke 11
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
The closest I could find to "gutting oneself" was this, but the guy involved wasn't exactly asking God
Acts 19
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 insomuch that unto the sick were carried away from his body handkerchiefs or aprons, and the evil spirits went out. 13 But certain also of the strolling Jews, exorcists, took upon them to name over them that had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, who did this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said unto them, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and mastered both of them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
So your most recent remark,... This "consume",... you're saying it's a bad thing or a good thing? You tell me.
You make it sound as if you think God gives harmful things.
Re-read your words and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see that this would be the most common view of them.
After all, you're warning me away from what God has to give, saying I can be gutted and consumed...
And then I look at what the Bible says about God giving to his children
Really different approaches there, don't you think?
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cman
Consume is not bad neither is being gutted.
Figurative for the work of God.
Perhaps you missed that, but it is descriptive enough, for now.
There is a time for everything.
And these experiences will happen, no doubt.
Is there bad or wrong associated with these terms?
Sure.
What about the good that you pointed out in your recent verses.
Just what is involved in spirit?
Something you handle in your own hands?
By your own doing?
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Sunesis
Gen-2, I will give you my take on where the miracles went, because you are right - they are not in operation anymore.
I know many people will disagree with me, but I will tell you why I believe they are not in operation anymore. For a little background, I believe the Bible, as I've read it over the years, is essentially, a book of prophecy. It concerns a coming Redeemer (Christ), and a coming Kingdom on earth (the Kingdom - which for our purposes here, includes the New City Jerusalem which Abraham looked for - it will be part of this Kingdom). Ok, so:
1. The OT prophesies Messiah will come.
2. Gospels - Messiah arrives. His ministry is to the JEWS ONLY. This is important. He does miracles - which are signs to Israel. They show and prove that he is the prophesised Messiah. Also, here comes another important part:
3. Messiah/Jesus preaches what? He preaches to the Jews: The Kingdom is at hand, all is ready. Believe on me (note: in the OT, for the Kingdom to arrive, all Israel must turn to the Messiah and he will bring in the Kingdom). So - its here!
4. Jesus is rejected and killed by his people.
5. But, he has 12 Apostles who were commissioned to preach Jesus - to the Jew first.
6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel.
If you continue to read Acts, those who believed had the Holy spirit in them. They did signs and miracles.
Why? Because they were signs that the Kingdom was at hand. Signs again to Israel. They were a foretaste of what would be normal, daily life in the Kingdom walking in the power of the Holy Spirit.
The 12 Apostles were like, the last call at a bar, last chance - repent, Christ is standing on the right hand of God - the Kingdom is here. He will still return if you desire it!
So, Israel has had prophets, the Word, the Law, the King arrives, then finally - the Apostles.
After all this they say - NO.
What happens? What is God's plan for if Israel should reject their Messiah and Kingdom?
Acts 28 - Paul now begins his ministry to the Gentiles. The Kingdom is not coming. To emphasize this, the Romans come destroy the Temple, Jews are scattered.
A new administration begins. All of Pauls NT writings: Romans, Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians were written BEFORE Acts 28. The Kingdom and signs were still being done, in fact they were so common, Paul has to tell them in Corinthians - whoa dudes, here's how to handle them! At this point believing Gentiles are also "grafted" into Israel's hope.
What was Israel's Hope? The Messiah and the Kingdom. In Acts 26 Paul still says, I preach nothing but the Hope of Israel. During Acts, Gentiles were, by grace, allowed to partake of this Hope.
So, how did Paul go, from healing people, to leaving Melitius at Trophimas sick, to Timothy being sickly, to a total lack of miracles? What happened, why did they stop and he wasn't healing people anymore?
Different administration - beginning in Acts 28:26, where the prophecy for the third time is cited: hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see, etc... I go to the Gentiles.
It was after the book of Acts, after Israel has rejected the final offer, in the prison Epistles (Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, I and II Timothy, Philemon and Titus) that Paul has a revelation from God - the cherry on top.
It is: God has called a people who will people heaven. In Ephesians we are told we have Power. We do not need the "signs" for Israel anymore since the prophetic clock has stopped and Christ is now building a "new man" - a "new creation." Whose home will be in the heavenlies. The believer's hope in this day and age is: Heaven. Our hope is not the earthly Kingdom - that is Israel's.
Once the "days of the Gentiles" are fulfilled, in Revelation God will then deal again with Israel and Gentile - for the final time. This time Israel will all call upon the Lord.
I believe one of the reasons that later "all Asia" turned away from Paul was because they thought this new revelation was nuts. And, because it was new and had been kept secret - Paul could not prove it out of scripture. There is no OT prophecy of God taking a Gentile people to abide with him in Heaven. Boy, that sounded nuts. So, they turned away.
That's a nutshell, but you are right. The manifestations are not here anymore. They will be when Israel finally does repent and they enter into the Kingdom on Earth.
We do have Holy Spirit, Power, which functions differently to us in this age of Grace, of which I could speak more on, but not here. That is an amazing study to do some other time.
Ok, that's my take. I'm quite happy having a personal relationship with my Christ :)
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doojable
Gen-2 I could be wrong, but I think that cman is not warning you about the spirit being something that is bad or can harm you. I think he's saying the same thing that Elisha warned Elijah about when Elijah wanted double the portion of spirit. I'm not about to look up the quote, but in essence Elisha told his young apprentice that what he was asking was too much for him and not something to be taken lightly.
I may be wrong, but I think the point that cman is trying to give a friendly warning in his typical minimalist fashion.
He's not saying, "The spirit will hurt you," so much as he's saying, "The spirit is one badazz muthafukkah who doesn't do party tricks."
Now - I could be completely wrong here... but I'm fairly certain cman is not being combative.
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Gen-2
Thank you cman. I wasn't trying to kick you. Well, crap, okay,... that's not entirely honest. What I mean is I wan't trying to kick you personally, But I was trying to kick you into saying something I understood better. I was fairly sure I wasn't getting what you meant - because you tried to explain or clarify the second time and people that are just being mean to you don't really ever bother.
You said ..."Perhaps you missed that,..." Indeed I did. Perhaps I do not know everything you know, eh? It's why I'm asking. I very much appreciate your replies cman. Do not take my frustration for ingratitude please. In my termsI'd say,... I realize God's gift isn't a tinker toy. and that once I decide to use it - it opens a different realm, the spiritual one. The power in that is great and I have no plans to be stupid with it.
Thank you for being patient enough to keep answering me until I began to see!
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Gen-2
Thanks Doojable. I can be a real pest yanno? ...^^^I think you're right^^^...
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Gen-2
Sunesis I will read this several times today I think
and write some questions this evening, because your answer is
the "horse of another color" and I want to look at what you said again.
Right now I have a lot of calculations to do for work stuff.
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spectrum49
Excuse me for “butting in” Sunesis, but if you look more carefully in Acts, Peter does say “repent”, but he DOES NOT use the phrase “the Kingdom is at hand”.
This phrase (actually, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”) is found UNIQUELY in the Gospels (Matt – John), and does not pertain to our Administration of Grace:
---------------
Mt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.…
---------------
Four verses later, we see that John baptized those (who were willing to repent) in the river Jordan:
---------------
…6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
---------------
The following shows that Jesus first began to use that same phrase himself after John was cast into prison – and soon afterwards was beheaded. Jesus merely “picked up where John left off”. (According to OT prophesy, John came to “prepare the way for Jesus”.):
---------------
Mt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
---------------
It is also interesting to note that Jesus did this “beyond Jordan”. This is (of course) true in the geographical sense, but for those who are “listening spiritually” it is also an indication that he went "beyond water baptism”, (Jesus, having been baptized of John, accomplished this for us that we need not repeat it, for it is already “embodied” in what we have inherently within our “spiritual nature”, upon being born again)
Also, technically speaking, we have no King. (As you had also indicated in so many words, “the Kingdom is yet future”.) It was interrupted in the Gospel period when Jesus was crucified, and the sign "mocking him" was posted above his head, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS".
And we are not Jews – we have no King. What we have NOW is the "body of Christ", made up of Jews AND Gentiles. It is neither one in particular, for we are considered as “equal” in the body. Later (in Revelation), Jesus will return to set up his Kingdom.
Near the end, he returns as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" ready to battle. And at the very end, God Himself (as KING OVERALL) judges from His throne.
Therefore, the Kingdom is NOT “at hand” during our time.
SPEC
:)
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geisha779
Basically what Sunesis and doojable said. . . . In another thread, discussion was about the miracles in the gospel accounts. That they can't be replicated. They defy reason.
Miracles are a sign from God to point to something. They are for that specific time and a specific place . . . in the gospels it was for Jesus ministry. So we would know He was who He said He was, and who sent Him. There were plenty of so-called Messiahs. If you look at the miracles of Jesus they all lead up to the GREATEST miracle. . . . the resurrection. For the Apostles . . . they were to establish and authenticate the church. They were not the only people trying to start a church. Lots of letters . . . lots of visions. . . . lots of theology.
I think. . . and just my rambling here. . . we have to be careful what we seek after. . . . many of us paid money to learn to operate what we were told were the manifestations of the power of the HS. We took a class and it wasn't free. We PAID for this supposed knowledge.
There actually was someone who tried to buy the power of the HS. He became the father of Simony. Simon Magus. There is a fair amount written about him. It is said he did manifest power. He had a following. Denied the Lord similar to how we did in TWI. He was quite the cult leader. As an aside, it is recorded that he died trying to fly.
VP taught that Simon became a Christian. NO NO NO!!!! The church, Peter especially, were opposed to Simon. Similar to how the church opposes TWI. It was not one big happy family. You have to wonder about VP teaching that Simon was saved. IMO that runs deep.
There were many people like him(Simon) but he is included in Acts chapter 8, which shows us the difference between one who says they believe and one who truly does.
We just want to be sure, given what we were tricked into with TWI . .. we are still not dwelling there?
I'm careful in what I ask for. . . . I too am content with the Lord, what He asks of me, and what He supplies me with when I do as He asks. It is enough. That doesn't mean miracles don't happen ( 2004 Red Sox!!). . . . . . . but really, they are always for God's glory.
Just my thoughts.
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year2027
God first
thanks Gen-2
Cman is not being mean he trying to teach you and i think you know this
because he seen promise in you
a person who is reaching for more than the flesh can give you
a word is neither evil or good it just a word until you give it meaning
like The Bible is nothing and its something
the bible is what Prince James wants us to have but it still God's Word
a book does mean its good or bad but it holds the meaning we give it
thanks
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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spectrum49
And now, a post concerning the manifestations. Please remember though, this is "my take" on them...
A word to begin with: As Gen-2 has indicated so many times, the physical and spiritual realms are closely related, as can be seen in nature, science and physics, etc.
I believe (and will show) that the list of manifestations in 1Co 12:8-10 is in this order for a special (and very logical) reason:
1. word of wisdom
2. word of knowledge
3. faith
4. gifts of healing
5. working of miracles
6. prophecy
7. discerning of spirits
“Word of Wisdom” (spiritual) is not unlike “wisdom” (in the natural sense). The same is true concerning “Word of Knowledge” and "knowledge itself". Their definitions may be found in many places in the Bible. For instance:
Pr 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Basically, being wise is to “obey instruction”, or simply “to do what God has said is right” - that which you presently understand. God will not hold you accountable for what you have yet to learn.
And there is a logical reason “wisdom” is listed first:
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Pr 8:20 [in the context, wisdom "says":] I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
A good example of wisdom is how all was fine with Adam until he transgressed. Simply, he disobeyed by doing the only thing God had said not to do. According to Prov 8:33 (above), he acted "foolishly instead of wisely".
Word of Knowledge is bacially “detailed information”, just like knowledge we receive by reading books or studying in school, etc. By this manifestation, God can reveal particular details about something we need to be aware of..
And there is is a reason it is listed second:
Note: For those who were in TWI, we always heard the phrase “Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom….” Then they went on to explain that wisdom is in the “second place” by saying “wisdom is applied knowledge”. In a logical sense this is true, but for our purposes here, it is OUT OF ORDER. You never see their “phrase” in the Bible! When both are mentioned, wisdom is always first and knowledge is after. Here are 3, and there are many more:
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Ec 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge…
2Ch 1:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee…
A good example of this is the account of Noah. He received some very detailed information about what would happen to the world (the flood), and specifically what to do in building the ark. (what kind of wood to use, exact dimensions, how to waterproof it [with "pitch"], what to put into it, etc.) In all, there are 14 entire verses of information!
And why did he get this? Simple! He was the ONLY ONE continuing to OBEY what was right (wisdom is first), while the rest of the world was “screwing up”:
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (except for Noah: Ge 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD".)
When we are obedient, (wisdom) we keep ourselves in the position so as to be able to receive this sort of information (knowledge) from God when we need it - just like Noah did. It's that simple!
Faith (believing) is third. It is basically “taking action” on what we know:
Heb 11:8 By [the manifestation of] faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham did not have any details, except TO LEAVE - and we just read his departing was considered as faith. (As he went, he learned the details.)
So far, in short –
1. We do what we know is right. (wisdom)
2. We therefore get details (knowledge) when we need them.
3. And then we act. (believing, or faith)
This is logical, and in order. Let me dispense with all the verbage and “cut to the chase”:
The result of this “algorithm” is Healing – 4th. God has set up things so they take course naturally when applied, the way He designed things to work normally in life, or even spiritually. We follow the "rules" and get the "results".
However, He can go beyond the “natural” with “supernatural” – Hence, Miracles – 5th.
A broken bone may heal in time (six weeks or so), but God has a way to “speed up the natural process”, so to speak, so it will mend immediately. This is a “miracle”.
Prophecy is 6th. Basically, you can “predict your future”, by simply repeating what you did which worked before, because it will work like that “every time”. It's sort of like using "mass production", once the "prototype" is established.
“Short summary” thus far (1-6): Do right. Get details. Act. Get results – even supernatual results if needed. It will work tomorrow just as it did today.
The 7th one is Discerning of Spirits. Once you have “the ball rolling” (as we have seen), the “last hurdle” is overcoming "the enemy" who will be “pulling out all the stops” to attempt to thwart your efforts – to make you quit. But as you become wise to “his bag of tricks”, you just “keep on keeping on”. When we sucessfully "resist him" - he MUST FLEE - he has no choice, for that is God's law!
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
I know this “analogy” seems oversimplified (and lacks proper documentation), but the truth is: To see all the details about how these work would take the Whole Bible into consideration – and every example of those who experienced these manifestations.
However, I am thankful one does not have to understand EVERY DETAIL just to "begin learning" how these work - recognizing and applying them "as they happen".
We just do what we know thus far - we start by acting wisely. Details do help though – gaining experience is accomplished by an "ever-learning process", so we are continually becoming even more proficient at doing "what is right".
I certainly hope this post will help some people. It seems to work very well for my wife & I, and I trust God would have us stop doing it this way if there was truly something wrong with it. Remember though, it is only "my logical method".
Further details are in a book I am publishing this year. (My first! Please wish me success.)
Love & Hope,
SPEC
:)
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Tom
Wow, much dialogue here.
I'd just like to add that God is not stingy with the energizing of his spirit within. No, they're not just tricks for our amusement - that characterization fits energizings from evil spiritual sources with their own agenda, but God is more willing to energize than we are willing to recieve those energizings. He is "looking" for those who will believe in his willingness to be active in our lives to help us and to help others.
Yes, it is a different realm. There is much learning involved, and silliness brings consequences (you don't strike me as someone into silliness in this realm &, like you said, like the Word says, you ask God for a piece of bread, he is not going to give you a stone), but there is much grace in this realm - especially for the learner. God is into showing the learner the how of these things, just so the learner can learn if for no other immediate reason - much like Samuel with Eli when he was learning to recognize the voice of the Lord.
Back in the day, when we were first learning this stuff, many of us had some witchcrafty backgrounds, &, many of us weren't completely spiritually clean in the beginning. I remember this one fellow was sick (fellow who was very deeply into Eastern spirituality before getting into the Word). He asked this other fellow to minister healing to him, & he did, & the guy got healed. You may remember back then we were taught somewhere along the line not to lay hands on someone unless God told you to. Well, the man ministering layed hands on the man he was ministering to & was immediately blinded. The man who was ministered to turned around and ministered to the man who ministered to him, & he was healed of his blindness. Crazy stuff - didn't know what we were doing, but it all worked out. In the process, we learned how to deal in the spiritual realm & we were healed in the process.
Also, in the beginning, four of us were witnessing on the boardwalk in Long Beach, Long Island. This guy came up to us - as he did, God told me the guy was loaded, & I should be very careful what I did. I thought I was more than a conqueror, & engaged the guy in conversation - sort of forgetting what God had said in the process. Turns out the guy had been into Voodoo all his life, & was more than willing to engage us in all sorts of crazy dangerous magic to show us that his God was more powerful than our God. I'm not stupid intellectually, but pretty soon I realized that he was always a step or two ahead of me in our "conversation." He was minipulating us just exactly where he wanted us. I realized that I wasn't talking to a human, but to a spirit. I was hopelessly outmatched. As soon as you accept the invitation to engage in a proof of power, you have lost. The Adversary knows you've won already - there is no reason to prove it. It is like the Devil telliong Jesus to jump off the mountain. I avoided his manipulations into dangerous magic demonstrations, but, still I was outclassed. At one point, he pulled a hair out of the head of one of the girls who was with us & told her she would be dead in a week. I told God that this was all over my head & he should take over & do something. The guy immediately gave the hair back to the girl, said he was just funning with us, & left.
The next day I told my spiritual elder what had happened. I was sort of ....ed. I told him that I was well aquanted with dealing with all kinds of street confrontations, but felt totally ignorant of this spiritual realm, & that I needed to learn if I was going to engage in this realm. His response was that I had learned & everything had worked out fine. Well, I HAD learned a very valuable and basic lesson about engaging in power plays with the Adversary, & relying on God. Also the girl was never afraid in the least. God is a lot more ballsy than I am. Not all confrontations in those days (& there were lots of them, because we wouldn't keep out mouths shut & the Adversary was trying to scare us out of the benefits of learning to walk spiritually) were quite so dicey. Many were in the beginning, but, pretty soon we learned more about what we were doing. Bottom line, it was kick foot, & people got delivered.
God is your very personal teacher.
Go for it brother. God will open doors. Walk through & learn.
Tom
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waysider
AC Syllabus-----page 26
The manifestation of Believing is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may believe to bring to pass the impossible at your command according to what God has revealed to you by Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom and Discerning of Spirits. It also inspires believing in others.
It is special renewed mind believing according to WOK, WOW and DOS.-----
Is this included in the "other 6"?
Just asking.
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waysider
So, if I am to understand this correctly, it's not enough to have word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits. One must also operate this special sort of "turbo charged" believing (that is not synonymous with the "law" of believing.) in order to bring to pass the impossible on command. And, it is a "special" kind of renewed mind.
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Sunesis
Tom, I believe the "Jesus Movement" for our generation of the '60s and 70s was a true "revival" of God so to speak. Yes, we did see miracles. I believe, like Geisha pointed out, they were by God's grace and "signs" for us - God revealed himself to us as God. Why was this important? Why did he need to do this? Because our country was in a real doldrums spiritually, churches were losing members and the occult, devil worhip (Son of Sam, Manson, hippie, Leary, drugs, free sex, tune in, turn on, drop out, influx of eastern religions - general psychedelia), and just, not very good things spiritually were on the ascendency (only it was called, the Age of Aquarius) and it was everywhere and kids were following the pied pipers the devil was sending them. God needed at that time to show to us kids that he was greater than he who runs the world. And, it seems these miracles only lasted a very short time. Most of the time, as time went on, we wondered where they were, we had heard tales of things happening, but they kind of only happened to a few. As we grew in the Word, they seemed to subside. That's why VP would have healing services and not many "big" miracles happened, excuses for him were made, and people were disappointed.
Yet, we chalked it up to, there's something wrong with us and our believing if we aren't seeing the same results as those in Acts. There must be something wrong with our walk, we are not spiritual enough. So we tried even harder. No one told us, hey, its not your fault - you're trying to live in a time that is in abayance - the wrong administration. I think that would have taken alot of weight off of our shoulders instead of trying to manifest that which was for Israel. We appropriated the wrong administration to ourselves.
I know we wanted to walk as Acts believers and VP encouraged it, but I think the reason we did not see the amazing amount of everday signs the Jews saw which were confirming the Kingdom, was because this is a different time - we are in the age of Grace, the times of the Gentiles, with a different calling and a different Hope - a Heavenly home(we are the "new man" the "new creation" to spend eternity in the heavens) - not on earth.
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Tom
I beg to differ Sunesis, at least to the extent that the reason - always - that God energizes is to heal because we need it, & we need it no less today than we did back in the day.
The reason we stopped seeing the extent of the spiritual action was because the Adversary had made his way into the inside of the movement sufficiently to bide his time waiting for the little bit of leaven to leaven the whole lump. In retrospect, the great volume of the confrontation ceased in a moment - in the moment coinciding with the initiation of the takeover of the revival in CA, NY, &, I suppose, KS. The witness to the Way, the Lord Jesus Christ was, at that time, being supplanted by the witnessing to the Wat International Inc.
Yet, miracles still continued, & still do to this day. Wherever God is, healing happens.
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year2027
God first
thanks SPEC
what is logical or what is enological it depends the subject
logical depends on context
just like order their listed or how their listed
the bible is no rule to truth
with love and a holy kiss Roy
thanks Tom
yes we learn as the spirit teaches
with love and a holy kiss Roy
thanks waysider
we do so without even knowing we have acted
with love and a holy kiss Roy
thanks Sunesis
God has never changed
we can operated all now
nothing has changed from the law to now God is still teaching us
we still are born and die and reborn again life goes on
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Gen-2
There's only so much I need to or even want to pick out of here, but for the most part all of the answers to what I asked are here now.
Basically if there's te need for a miracle there's going to be someone there to believe for it and God is going to be able to deliver. The idea that God would ever Refuse to help his Kids is just alien to my brain. So I believe it is the anytime you're ready thing, that governs this, because I believe that God is always ready and that that truth doesn't change. It doesn't even really make sense to me that it could.
Believing is always the requirement.
It is funny to think this way, but when you're in a situation where spiritual power is going to be "dipped into" It's often all going to happen very quick, I think those lengthy definitions are nice to look at but matter little in the moment. I think this is what Cman was trying to tell me. It ain't no time to be goin' "Lookie what I can do!" or your gonna F up and end up having your 4$$ handed to you. You really have to believe who you are, and that God's right there with you. This manifestation of spirit is an intermix chamber of any needed aspects at the time and the end result is how they forge the reality of some desired result.
God knows what's needed when you ask and he puts it all in motion, but yeah, you'd better hold on tight and do your part. And then it's over, just like that.
I'm really gonna have to trust God and do this soon. He's just gonna have to do His part But I have to do this like within this week.
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cman
I think the real healing takes place in the mind, soul and spirit.
Physical healing is temporary, we will all die, the ultimate healing.
Not to condone killing yourself, but a factor that will not go away.
It's a miracle to see death as life, and life as death.
To be able to face life with clear vision as well as death.
We would need to be shown.
To become dead while we live to see life's death.
What it is and means and what happens can only be shown to us.
In that is peace, healing and a miracle.
Removing the fear and anxiety that causes many physical symptoms.
In the spirit, it is seen and the body is changed, healed, for now, temporary.
A token, a glimpse of our life in Christ.
But for now we can't stay there, soon enough we will.
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