This was the point to the Way's Advanced Class - more or less, or so I have imagined, yet there was never a big crowd out following a man doing copious signs miracles & wonders, that I can recall hearing about, running loose in public, in our day and time. And no, I don't mean supposed healings that happen in back rooms - (compare with accounts in Acts or Jesus in the Gospels).
I think it was on closing night of Rock of Ages. 1973.
Wierwille announced during the main teaching there would be a healing service for all who needed healing in front of the main stage. He instructed all who sought healing to come forth. Hundreds came up to the stage. He told all Advanced Class grads in the audience to come forth and pick out a healing partner so they could "minister" to them. Then, since the AC grads were outnumbered, he told them to keep finding healing partners until everyone was ministered to. I did not go down to the stage. It didn't seem right. If God wanted me to minister healing, why didn't He tell me Himself? Later, I started to question my decision. Do you have any idea what it's like to carry the guilt of thinking you denied someone healing? Were there any genuine miracles or healing? Not that I saw. And I was an observer, on the outside looking in.
I think it was on closing night of Rock of Ages. 1973.
Wierwille announced during the main teaching there would be a healing service for all who needed healing in front of the main stage. He instructed all who sought healing to come forth. Hundreds came up to the stage. He told all Advanced Class grads in the audience to come forth and pick out a healing partner so they could "minister" to them. Then, since the AC grads were outnumbered, he told them to keep finding healing partners until everyone was ministered to. I did not go down to the stage. It didn't seem right. If God wanted me to minister healing, why didn't He tell me Himself? Later, I started to question my decision. Do you have any idea what it's like to carry the guilt of thinking you denied someone healing? Were there any genuine miracles or healing? Not that I saw. And I was an observer, on the outside looking in.
Guilt can be a terrible thing. However, learning from it, can be a terribly motivating thing as well.
My dad Taught me a verse that had a huge impact on me:
"Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it." With the 'good' being God's Word or something good, from God, to them.
I'm not being flippant here either. I was a Marine. One time when I (we) got shot at , I got scared and froze. Someone died as a result[?]. Would he be alive now if I had returned fire immediately? I don't know....... But - I do know I have blamed myself for it ever since.
It's not an exact parallel Waysider, I know, but it came to mind immediately. It's the kind of thing you'd like to think you'd learn from.
I Have a goal to do all I can to operate all nine manifestations, as openly as possible. Might sound dumb, but it's my goal.
I still want any of you to kick-in here!
Linder has them. Needs them to fight spurtd.
Linder,... I suspec this in reference to another thread I read in General about some ex TWI staff person? and not really related to my opening post.
Linder,... I suspec this in reference to another thread I read in General about some ex TWI staff person? and not really related to my opening post
? But I don't know.
. . .
You were talking about the other six manifestations. You need them to cast out devil spirits. L1nder is some guy who claims to be able to teach the "other six".
My opinion is that for most people - certainly for me. the Way and splinter groups fall on their sword on this issue.
I've never seen anyone able to teach anyone else "How To" operate the Revelation or Power Manifestations - to the point where they could do those with the same confidence or apparent result that they seemed to have with Speaking in Tongues. Interpretation and Prophecy.
This was the point to the Way's Advanced Class - more or less, or so I have imagined, yet there was never a big crowd out following a man doing copious signs miracles & wonders, that I can recall hearing about, running loose in public, in our day and time. And no, I don't mean supposed healings that happen in back rooms - (compare with accounts in Acts or Jesus in the Gospels).
I never took "classes",... so I don't know what you all here know, were taught. Is there something I should go sign up for somewhere? Or is that just a rather pointless proposition. Are we to do the same works & greater than, or was that idea and the verse it sprang from simply a delusion?
Where did they go, the other six manifestations? Did the classes concerning them only talk a good game about them, supplying info on them? or did they actually teach anyone "how-to-do- them" ?
This is a question I've had for a long time. I thought about it somet5imes when I was a Marine in Afghanistan & Iraq, when people were shooting at me. I have a Bunch of dead friends that could have used a miracle. Sure I'm a bit Jaded at God and the people that got me started on believing in Him and a ministry that started my Parents off to believe in that and teach it to me.
Anyone?
Opinions,... answers,... laughter?
I'll listen
As you figured out, you missed a lot.
Some of it you missed because you weren't in the room when the recorders were turned off-
a LOT of things were said by vpw and staff and were never committed to paper.
(Among the things you missed were risking life-and-limb in the LEAD program by hitchhiking
and then going up sides of mountains with undereducated guides. Most people survived without
injury, but that doesn't account for hitchhikers raped, or those suffering permanent
injury during the wilderness section.)
Some of it you missed, however, because they were never even spoken.
vpw's "material" was all plagiarized from other Christians.
(Occasionally he mentioned a source, usually he did not.)
I have no problem with a Christian being an "eclecticist", and borrowing from the styles of
others. In fact, I RECOMMEND it. (Everyone has their strengths and can teach you something.)
However, vpw hid his sources and claimed it was the results of his skills and receiving
revelation from God Almighty entirely.
In case you're wondering about the names, most of what we've been able to find were:
EW Bullinger:
the administrations/dispensations, the systematic study of Scripture, number in Scripture,
Witness of the Stars, all the usages of "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament,
all the content in the book "How to Enjoy the Bible" (4 sessions of pfal's 12 right there.)
Bullinger was unique in that his name was not hidden for much of his work- but it was
NEVER mentioned in conjunction with many other works. 2 of his books were basically put
together without attribution and called "vpw's" book "Are the Dead Alive Now?"
BG Leonard:
the Holy Spirit field in general, and the format of a class. vpw took Leonard's
CTC class on Gifts of the Spirit. Later the same year, he asked Leonard permission
to teach Leonard's class once locally. Leonard permitted it. vpw sent him a photo of the
students for Leonard's scrapbook then stopped communicating with him.
Meanwhile, vpw told "his" students that this was "his" class on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." It was a photocopy of Leonard's class in every way,
and was modified over time into the pfal class most people took.
Leonard is the one who taught on "the other 6 manifestations". vpw's lack of understanding
on them while continuing to teach on them is why twi's understanding on the subjects were
pretty shallow.
JE Stiles:
the book "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" was Stiles' book on "the Gift of the Holy Spirit",
with additions from Bullinger and Leonard. Stiles was the man who led vpw into speaking in
tongues the first time.
EW Kenyon:
the Word-Faith subject- which other Christians have plagiarized from Kenyon as well.
It's why you're personally blamed by some Christians when bad things happen to you.
(They're comforters as miserable as those Job faced.)
A handful of other Christians were used- vpw copied THIS man's style, and THAT man's
radio show, and so on. He even went outside Christian circles. He had a phone hotline
to "the Liberty Lobby" we never heard about. vpw would listen to their ultraconservative,
fictionalized fears of the current state of the Union, and then speak of their claims,
freely making "predictions" of doom and making sure other people all claimed vpw was
getting those from God by revelation, not man by technology.
(vpw often lied by omission more than lying by direct statement, then led people to
believe he'd said ONE thing when he said another-but MEANT them to think he said
another. An example: he said he was on the basketball team in high school,
played basketball all through college, and was involved with the NBL team the
Sheboygan Redskins. He phrased that very carefully.
What it means in plain English:
He was on the basketball team in high school, but was on no other team
at any other time. He PLAYED basketball in college, but not on any TEAM.
He had some connection with the Sheboygan Redskins, but that is an incredibly vague
term that can mean he tried to drum up attendance at their games, advertised for them,
or any of dozens of other teams.
What did he get people to believe?
They thought he said he played on the basketball teams in high school and college,
and played on the Sheboygan Redskins.
The only source one can find that claims he ever DID play for them- and someone
managed to get the entire team roster of the entire history of the Sheboygan Redskins
and posted it (he's not there),
is a paper someone wrote. Their source? twi's book where vpw claimed he was
"connected with" the Sheboygan Redskins. In other words, all sources say vpw never
played for them- except in the intentional misunderstanding of people who read vpw
make his vague claim. All as he wanted. And his claim outlasted his lifetime.
If not for the internet, it might still be unexposed.
If you're interested in this-and I recommend at least one read-through-
we had a thread called "The Way: Living in Wonderland" were we discussed vpw's and twi's
claims in their book "The Way: Living in Love", and the related history.
In the last pages, I assembled the documentable twi history and wrote out a short
biography of vpw himself- as documented all through the thread, with sources listed.
Thanks WordWolf I will read it, and I appreciate the time you took to answer.
You were talking about the other six manifestations. You need them to cast out devil spirits. L1nder is some guy who claims to be able to teach the "other six".
just a joke
Thanks for the Clarification Bolshevik, I didn't know about the Linder guy's claims. I won't take the info as a reccomendation then.
The definitions for "the other six manifestations", as Wierwille presented them in his Advanced Class, were plagiarized almost word for word from someone he never bothered to credit.
The definitions for "the other six manifestations", as Wierwille presented them in his Advanced Class, were plagiarized almost word for word from someone he never bothered to credit.
I have a list of definitions for them. They are written in the notebook paper pages of my dad's Bible, in the back It says they are from the - Advanced Class '79. After that he has written 16 numbered things called Keys to Walking in the Spirit. But it would appear he had some reservations, because after those it says: "#17. ...and if none of that crap WORKS,... Love people. That's more important anyways."
I don't doubt that a lot of stuff was palgarized and tweaked. Weirwille found the perfect profession for that, preaching. Ministers quote God for a living without giving him credit, so why not do the same with other people? Yeah - I know screwy logic, but there you have it.
I'm going to think about all this and post something more specific in here soon ( Day or so).
I have a list of definitions for them. They are written in the notebook paper pages of my dad's Bible, in the back It says they are from the - Advanced Class '79. After that he has written 16 numbered things called Keys to Walking in the Spirit. But it would appear he had some reservations, because after those it says: "#17. ...and if none of that crap WORKS,... Love people. That's more important anyways."
I don't doubt that a lot of stuff was palgarized and tweaked. Weirwille found the perfect profession for that, preaching. Ministers quote God for a living without giving him credit, so why not do the same with other people? Yeah - I know screwy logic, but there you have it.
I'm going to think about all this and post something more specific in here soon ( Day or so).
Thanks for replying Waysider
Hey there, Gen-2
Someplace on GSC there is a line by line comparison of the definitions.
I think it was BG Leonard who authored these definitions. Not sure on that.
Anyhow----Keys To Walking In The Spirit
That's a whole subject of controversy all by its lonesome.
For example:
3. Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation. II Corinthians 4:16.
It's my opinion that what we called "speaking in tongues" in The Way was really what is commonly referred to as "glossolalia". I don't know how much you know about glossolalia. There have been scientific studies that show that when a person is engaging in "speaking in tongues", there are actual changes that take place in the brain. The person's capacity to use critical thinking skills and reasoning becomes compromised. This was demonstrated with physical imaging of brain waves. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a bad thing. (Think in terms of meditation and relaxation techniques.) But, in the hands of someone like a controlling cult leader, the dangers are very real. So, here is this cult guru, VPW, insisting that, in order to reach a point of personal, spiritual connection with God, we would have to suspend our ability to question what was going on in The Way and lull ourselves into a state of submissive compliance.
11. Do not be deceived by the five senses. (string of scripture references)
Here again, you are being told to NOT trust common sense and intuition. If you put this together with Wierwille's so-called "law of believing" (magical thinking) and the idea of never acknowledging a "negative", etc, you could be setting yourself up for outside control and potentially tragic results.
12. Do not argue with God (another string of scripture references)
There was always an underlying understanding in The Way that when the "leader" in charge spoke, it was quite possible they were speaking by revelation, which is the same thing as having God speak to you. Here is an actual phrase that was often repeated in The Way, so much so that it became a virtual tenet. "A suggestion from a leader is tantamount to a commandment." Therefore, blind obedience to the leadership is an absolute requirement for anyone desiring to "walk in the spirit".
13. Revelation once given may change. (God changes the revelation after the circunstances change.)----more scripture references.
So, not only do you need to practice self delusion, you have to blindly do as you are told and they can change the rules whenever it pleases them.
Thanks for the Clarification Bolshevik, I didn't know about the Linder guy's claims. I won't take the info as a reccomendation then.
well, I think if you went to work for him errr. apprentice or something, . . . you'd see how "the other six" really work up close. but I think you already know.
well, I think if you went to work for him errr. apprentice or something, . . . you'd see how "the other six" really work up close. but I think you already know.
<grin>
It's actually a grand idea - sort of - to think of going out with someone that knows how, and to learn how by "hanging out" with them. Unfortunately I know no such people. You have a very sharp sense of humor Bolshevik, quite the smart alek. Forgive me for not seeing that right off the bat
WordWolf, I read those old posts. I read a LOT of posts. I can't identify with you guys that got all angry about the Way. I wasn't in it. I can understand what I can read though, and I'm glad I wasn't hurt as they were, as you were. It's not to poke any fun at you guys, but maybe to lighten my mood a bit when I say that a phrase comes to mind.
"Well, that's going to leave a mark."
But I can see it has.
I'm ....ed that this all happened, Stupid remark but that's it there, how I feel. My dad died last Sept, and he was like this too, like a lot of what I read. He never talked about a lot of this stuff to me. He encouraged me to learn though. to push beyond the derision I get personally form people that hear me speak and say I am retarded (if you heard me speak - you'd understand that remark)
So I'm going to keep looking for my answers, I'm also going to keep "doing" IRL maybe I'll get it right
Personally, I really think this whole deal of "manifestations" is a crock of hooey. If there really is a God, and He wants or needs to "say" something to you, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the scope of His abilities to do so. As to learning how to "operate" them: Thousands of us Wayfers graduated from the Advanced Class. I don't think any of us really knew any more going out than we did going in.
Personally, I really think this whole deal of "manifestations" is a crock of hooey. If there really is a God, and He wants or needs to "say" something to you, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the scope of His abilities to do so. As to learning how to "operate" them: Thousands of us Wayfers graduated from the Advanced Class. I don't think any of us really knew any more going out than we did going in.
Yeah. I gathered some of this from the way you answered earlier. I don't think the answer is in those teachings either. If it were, people would be commonly doing those things after learning what they needed to know to believe.
Yet I don't discount that God would want a reliable cell Phone to talk to His kids or that he would want to give them the power they needed if it was necessarry. He could do something phenominally unique each and every time, but He tends to do the stuff He does in a more ordered way. I see this in Physics and Math a lot. If you give up on the idea that God cares, well then there probably wouldn't be any gift(s) and Manifestations wouldn't be an issue.
I don't have the answer, just questions. It's possible there's an answer. It seems that if there is, the teaching given on the "Other 6" in that class was probably wrong, because it doesn't reliably work.
One of the things I'm having to learn in Quantum Physics is the you really can't discard Possibilities, and that many things we thought were scientifically impossible, are actually possible, oh say,... if you had enough power. But we're talking impossible amounts that no one has...
I think that class was like the Emperor's New Clothes. People came out of it with a "WTF?" look on their faces but didn't dare reveal their true evaluation with each other for fear they would be thought of as "spiritual lacking".
I think that class was like the Emperor's New Clothes. People came out of it with a "WTF?" look on their faces but didn't dare reveal their true evaluation with each other for fear they would be thought of as "spiritual lacking".
did you know that love of the spirit is part all ten or more
lets name the so call manifestations when you operate diversities of gifts
word of wisdom; word of knowledge, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, divers kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues by love
truth is consider love of wisdom of God and knowledge comes by loving more perfect because of truth and truth of healing comes from love all and miracles come by true love and prophesy comes from true love and discerning of spirits of love from hate knowing where each ideal come from true, in tongues of the body comes from truth love that no man can tell and interpretation of tongues is the meaning of true love whether spoken, dream, seen a vision, or feel in their heart of truth with love
My opinion is that for most people - certainly for me. the Way and splinter groups fall on their sword on this issue.
I've never seen anyone able to teach anyone else "How To" operate the Revelation or Power Manifestations - to the point where they could do those with the same confidence or apparent result that they seemed to have with Speaking in Tongues. Interpretation and Prophecy.
This was the point to the Way's Advanced Class - more or less, or so I have imagined, yet there was never a big crowd out following a man doing copious signs miracles & wonders, that I can recall hearing about, running loose in public, in our day and time. And no, I don't mean supposed healings that happen in back rooms - (compare with accounts in Acts or Jesus in the Gospels).
I never took "classes",... so I don't know what you all here know, were taught. Is there something I should go sign up for somewhere? Or is that just a rather pointless proposition. Are we to do the same works & greater than, or was that idea and the verse it sprang from simply a delusion?
Where did they go, the other six manifestations? Did the classes concerning them only talk a good game about them, supplying info on them? or did they actually teach anyone "how-to-do- them" ?
This is a question I've had for a long time. I thought about it somet5imes when I was a Marine in Afghanistan & Iraq, when people were shooting at me. I have a Bunch of dead friends that could have used a miracle. Sure I'm a bit Jaded at God and the people that got me started on believing in Him and a ministry that started my Parents off to believe in that and teach it to me.
Anyone?
Opinions,... answers,... laughter?
I'll listen
God energizes these operations in people who believe he will. The other 6? The first 3? Whether one group is harder than the other is a human consideration that just serves to allow God to energize one group and not the other. Is one thing harder for God than another? Some people find it easier to discern spirits than to speak in tongues - others the other way. "Groups," denominational teachings, classes, just serve to confuse people sometimes - those times when what's presented is removed from the Word & its practice. People are still being healed. To give a damn whether it happens in the back room or the public street corner is to miss the point - &, so, the reality.
Guilt sucks. God meets us in the place of his provision of mercy. He forgives all our iniquities, & he heals all our deseases - not the other way around.
We're supposed to be able to walk like Jesus Christ, but in the spiritual realm, we all, at times, don't know how to use our weapons, hesitate to shoot, or don't shoot at all. People hurt as a result, some die, or die sooner. Sucks. Resultant guilt sucks on.
My dad is a Marine. He taught me that I haven't lost until I stop shooting back.
Classes can be one or two or more steps removed from the reality, but people still know & do, & they can teach you. Ask. God will hook you up. Fxxk the politics.
... Classes can be one or two or more steps removed from the reality, but people still know & do, & they can teach you. Ask. God will hook you up. Fxxk the politics.
Tom
I did ask, I guess I'm just waiting on God now.
I've heard people saying yes and no,... it can or it can't happen. Lots of people have different ideas on this, but I've never done a miracle or been with someone that actually has...
...and you'd know I am guessing - a Miracle in Manifestation would be, uhm, well,... manifest - right?
If you know any of these people by name, let me know.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
26
16
18
24
Popular Days
Feb 11
26
Feb 9
22
Feb 15
12
Feb 10
11
Top Posters In This Topic
year2027 26 posts
waysider 16 posts
Bolshevik 18 posts
Gen-2 24 posts
Popular Days
Feb 11 2010
26 posts
Feb 9 2010
22 posts
Feb 15 2010
12 posts
Feb 10 2010
11 posts
Popular Posts
spectrum49
And now, a post concerning the manifestations. Please remember though, this is "my take" on them... A word to begin with: As Gen-2 has indicated so many times, the physical and spiritual realms are
geisha779
Some of the accounts in the OT make me laugh. You have God in Exodus 20 telling Moses I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Seems God is taking credit here
year2027
God first thanks Gen-2 yes my friend we can understand tongues by dreams but can we understand the serpent by understanding God Eve was tempted by serpent but was she really tempted or was a l
Bolshevik
Linder has them. Needs them to fight spurtd.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Oops, wrong thread.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I think it was on closing night of Rock of Ages. 1973.
Wierwille announced during the main teaching there would be a healing service for all who needed healing in front of the main stage. He instructed all who sought healing to come forth. Hundreds came up to the stage. He told all Advanced Class grads in the audience to come forth and pick out a healing partner so they could "minister" to them. Then, since the AC grads were outnumbered, he told them to keep finding healing partners until everyone was ministered to. I did not go down to the stage. It didn't seem right. If God wanted me to minister healing, why didn't He tell me Himself? Later, I started to question my decision. Do you have any idea what it's like to carry the guilt of thinking you denied someone healing? Were there any genuine miracles or healing? Not that I saw. And I was an observer, on the outside looking in.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Guilt can be a terrible thing. However, learning from it, can be a terribly motivating thing as well.
My dad Taught me a verse that had a huge impact on me:
"Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it." With the 'good' being God's Word or something good, from God, to them.
I'm not being flippant here either. I was a Marine. One time when I (we) got shot at , I got scared and froze. Someone died as a result[?]. Would he be alive now if I had returned fire immediately? I don't know....... But - I do know I have blamed myself for it ever since.
It's not an exact parallel Waysider, I know, but it came to mind immediately. It's the kind of thing you'd like to think you'd learn from.
I Have a goal to do all I can to operate all nine manifestations, as openly as possible. Might sound dumb, but it's my goal.
I still want any of you to kick-in here!
Linder,... I suspec this in reference to another thread I read in General about some ex TWI staff person? and not really related to my opening post.
? But I don't know.
haha,.... okay
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
thanks Gen-2
nine is just where we can begin
I sure there more than anyone can measure
lets begin with speaking in tongues
can it done with only the mouth?
can it be done with skin also? yes it can
or with love, joy or any fruit of spirit
when you see that there more than a interpretation with words it with love also
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Edited by year2027Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
You were talking about the other six manifestations. You need them to cast out devil spirits. L1nder is some guy who claims to be able to teach the "other six".
just a joke
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
As you figured out, you missed a lot.
Some of it you missed because you weren't in the room when the recorders were turned off-
a LOT of things were said by vpw and staff and were never committed to paper.
(Among the things you missed were risking life-and-limb in the LEAD program by hitchhiking
and then going up sides of mountains with undereducated guides. Most people survived without
injury, but that doesn't account for hitchhikers raped, or those suffering permanent
injury during the wilderness section.)
Some of it you missed, however, because they were never even spoken.
vpw's "material" was all plagiarized from other Christians.
(Occasionally he mentioned a source, usually he did not.)
I have no problem with a Christian being an "eclecticist", and borrowing from the styles of
others. In fact, I RECOMMEND it. (Everyone has their strengths and can teach you something.)
However, vpw hid his sources and claimed it was the results of his skills and receiving
revelation from God Almighty entirely.
In case you're wondering about the names, most of what we've been able to find were:
EW Bullinger:
the administrations/dispensations, the systematic study of Scripture, number in Scripture,
Witness of the Stars, all the usages of "Holy Spirit" in the New Testament,
all the content in the book "How to Enjoy the Bible" (4 sessions of pfal's 12 right there.)
Bullinger was unique in that his name was not hidden for much of his work- but it was
NEVER mentioned in conjunction with many other works. 2 of his books were basically put
together without attribution and called "vpw's" book "Are the Dead Alive Now?"
BG Leonard:
the Holy Spirit field in general, and the format of a class. vpw took Leonard's
CTC class on Gifts of the Spirit. Later the same year, he asked Leonard permission
to teach Leonard's class once locally. Leonard permitted it. vpw sent him a photo of the
students for Leonard's scrapbook then stopped communicating with him.
Meanwhile, vpw told "his" students that this was "his" class on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." It was a photocopy of Leonard's class in every way,
and was modified over time into the pfal class most people took.
Leonard is the one who taught on "the other 6 manifestations". vpw's lack of understanding
on them while continuing to teach on them is why twi's understanding on the subjects were
pretty shallow.
JE Stiles:
the book "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" was Stiles' book on "the Gift of the Holy Spirit",
with additions from Bullinger and Leonard. Stiles was the man who led vpw into speaking in
tongues the first time.
EW Kenyon:
the Word-Faith subject- which other Christians have plagiarized from Kenyon as well.
It's why you're personally blamed by some Christians when bad things happen to you.
(They're comforters as miserable as those Job faced.)
A handful of other Christians were used- vpw copied THIS man's style, and THAT man's
radio show, and so on. He even went outside Christian circles. He had a phone hotline
to "the Liberty Lobby" we never heard about. vpw would listen to their ultraconservative,
fictionalized fears of the current state of the Union, and then speak of their claims,
freely making "predictions" of doom and making sure other people all claimed vpw was
getting those from God by revelation, not man by technology.
(vpw often lied by omission more than lying by direct statement, then led people to
believe he'd said ONE thing when he said another-but MEANT them to think he said
another. An example: he said he was on the basketball team in high school,
played basketball all through college, and was involved with the NBL team the
Sheboygan Redskins. He phrased that very carefully.
What it means in plain English:
He was on the basketball team in high school, but was on no other team
at any other time. He PLAYED basketball in college, but not on any TEAM.
He had some connection with the Sheboygan Redskins, but that is an incredibly vague
term that can mean he tried to drum up attendance at their games, advertised for them,
or any of dozens of other teams.
What did he get people to believe?
They thought he said he played on the basketball teams in high school and college,
and played on the Sheboygan Redskins.
The only source one can find that claims he ever DID play for them- and someone
managed to get the entire team roster of the entire history of the Sheboygan Redskins
and posted it (he's not there),
is a paper someone wrote. Their source? twi's book where vpw claimed he was
"connected with" the Sheboygan Redskins. In other words, all sources say vpw never
played for them- except in the intentional misunderstanding of people who read vpw
make his vague claim. All as he wanted. And his claim outlasted his lifetime.
If not for the internet, it might still be unexposed.
If you're interested in this-and I recommend at least one read-through-
we had a thread called "The Way: Living in Wonderland" were we discussed vpw's and twi's
claims in their book "The Way: Living in Love", and the related history.
In the last pages, I assembled the documentable twi history and wrote out a short
biography of vpw himself- as documented all through the thread, with sources listed.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Thanks WordWolf I will read it, and I appreciate the time you took to answer.
Thanks for the Clarification Bolshevik, I didn't know about the Linder guy's claims. I won't take the info as a reccomendation then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Thanks Roy, maybe if I get just those nine to the point where I can reliably do them, I'll look into more of what might be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
The definitions for "the other six manifestations", as Wierwille presented them in his Advanced Class, were plagiarized almost word for word from someone he never bothered to credit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
I have a list of definitions for them. They are written in the notebook paper pages of my dad's Bible, in the back It says they are from the - Advanced Class '79. After that he has written 16 numbered things called Keys to Walking in the Spirit. But it would appear he had some reservations, because after those it says: "#17. ...and if none of that crap WORKS,... Love people. That's more important anyways."
I don't doubt that a lot of stuff was palgarized and tweaked. Weirwille found the perfect profession for that, preaching. Ministers quote God for a living without giving him credit, so why not do the same with other people? Yeah - I know screwy logic, but there you have it.
I'm going to think about all this and post something more specific in here soon ( Day or so).
Thanks for replying Waysider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hey there, Gen-2
Someplace on GSC there is a line by line comparison of the definitions.
I think it was BG Leonard who authored these definitions. Not sure on that.
Anyhow----Keys To Walking In The Spirit
That's a whole subject of controversy all by its lonesome.
For example:
3. Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation. II Corinthians 4:16.
It's my opinion that what we called "speaking in tongues" in The Way was really what is commonly referred to as "glossolalia". I don't know how much you know about glossolalia. There have been scientific studies that show that when a person is engaging in "speaking in tongues", there are actual changes that take place in the brain. The person's capacity to use critical thinking skills and reasoning becomes compromised. This was demonstrated with physical imaging of brain waves. In and of itself, this is not necessarily a bad thing. (Think in terms of meditation and relaxation techniques.) But, in the hands of someone like a controlling cult leader, the dangers are very real. So, here is this cult guru, VPW, insisting that, in order to reach a point of personal, spiritual connection with God, we would have to suspend our ability to question what was going on in The Way and lull ourselves into a state of submissive compliance.
11. Do not be deceived by the five senses. (string of scripture references)
Here again, you are being told to NOT trust common sense and intuition. If you put this together with Wierwille's so-called "law of believing" (magical thinking) and the idea of never acknowledging a "negative", etc, you could be setting yourself up for outside control and potentially tragic results.
12. Do not argue with God (another string of scripture references)
There was always an underlying understanding in The Way that when the "leader" in charge spoke, it was quite possible they were speaking by revelation, which is the same thing as having God speak to you. Here is an actual phrase that was often repeated in The Way, so much so that it became a virtual tenet. "A suggestion from a leader is tantamount to a commandment." Therefore, blind obedience to the leadership is an absolute requirement for anyone desiring to "walk in the spirit".
13. Revelation once given may change. (God changes the revelation after the circunstances change.)----more scripture references.
So, not only do you need to practice self delusion, you have to blindly do as you are told and they can change the rules whenever it pleases them.
Dangerous stuff!
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Have you ever wondered how deaf people speak in tongues?
No, I'm not trying to be funny.
But, stop and think about key #3 to walking in the spirit.
How does that one work for deaf people?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
well, I think if you went to work for him errr. apprentice or something, . . . you'd see how "the other six" really work up close. but I think you already know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
<grin>
It's actually a grand idea - sort of - to think of going out with someone that knows how, and to learn how by "hanging out" with them. Unfortunately I know no such people. You have a very sharp sense of humor Bolshevik, quite the smart alek. Forgive me for not seeing that right off the bat
WordWolf, I read those old posts. I read a LOT of posts. I can't identify with you guys that got all angry about the Way. I wasn't in it. I can understand what I can read though, and I'm glad I wasn't hurt as they were, as you were. It's not to poke any fun at you guys, but maybe to lighten my mood a bit when I say that a phrase comes to mind.
"Well, that's going to leave a mark."
But I can see it has.
I'm ....ed that this all happened, Stupid remark but that's it there, how I feel. My dad died last Sept, and he was like this too, like a lot of what I read. He never talked about a lot of this stuff to me. He encouraged me to learn though. to push beyond the derision I get personally form people that hear me speak and say I am retarded (if you heard me speak - you'd understand that remark)
So I'm going to keep looking for my answers, I'm also going to keep "doing" IRL maybe I'll get it right
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Personally, I really think this whole deal of "manifestations" is a crock of hooey. If there really is a God, and He wants or needs to "say" something to you, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the scope of His abilities to do so. As to learning how to "operate" them: Thousands of us Wayfers graduated from the Advanced Class. I don't think any of us really knew any more going out than we did going in.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Yeah. I gathered some of this from the way you answered earlier. I don't think the answer is in those teachings either. If it were, people would be commonly doing those things after learning what they needed to know to believe.
Yet I don't discount that God would want a reliable cell Phone to talk to His kids or that he would want to give them the power they needed if it was necessarry. He could do something phenominally unique each and every time, but He tends to do the stuff He does in a more ordered way. I see this in Physics and Math a lot. If you give up on the idea that God cares, well then there probably wouldn't be any gift(s) and Manifestations wouldn't be an issue.
I don't have the answer, just questions. It's possible there's an answer. It seems that if there is, the teaching given on the "Other 6" in that class was probably wrong, because it doesn't reliably work.
One of the things I'm having to learn in Quantum Physics is the you really can't discard Possibilities, and that many things we thought were scientifically impossible, are actually possible, oh say,... if you had enough power. But we're talking impossible amounts that no one has...
Just sayin'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I think that class was like the Emperor's New Clothes. People came out of it with a "WTF?" look on their faces but didn't dare reveal their true evaluation with each other for fear they would be thought of as "spiritual lacking".
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I was really blessed and I learned a lot.
So was everyone else, they said so.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Just cause 9 are listed doesn't mean they are numbered.
Nor do they act independently or not act for that matter...
The manifestation is singular though plural and certainly can not be numbered.
I mean what about all the other spiritual things manifested.
Are we to classify them, I hope not.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
thanks everybody
did you know that love of the spirit is part all ten or more
lets name the so call manifestations when you operate diversities of gifts
word of wisdom; word of knowledge, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, divers kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues by love
truth is consider love of wisdom of God and knowledge comes by loving more perfect because of truth and truth of healing comes from love all and miracles come by true love and prophesy comes from true love and discerning of spirits of love from hate knowing where each ideal come from true, in tongues of the body comes from truth love that no man can tell and interpretation of tongues is the meaning of true love whether spoken, dream, seen a vision, or feel in their heart of truth with love
the tenth manifestation is above the other nine
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Edited by year2027Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
God energizes these operations in people who believe he will. The other 6? The first 3? Whether one group is harder than the other is a human consideration that just serves to allow God to energize one group and not the other. Is one thing harder for God than another? Some people find it easier to discern spirits than to speak in tongues - others the other way. "Groups," denominational teachings, classes, just serve to confuse people sometimes - those times when what's presented is removed from the Word & its practice. People are still being healed. To give a damn whether it happens in the back room or the public street corner is to miss the point - &, so, the reality.
Guilt sucks. God meets us in the place of his provision of mercy. He forgives all our iniquities, & he heals all our deseases - not the other way around.
We're supposed to be able to walk like Jesus Christ, but in the spiritual realm, we all, at times, don't know how to use our weapons, hesitate to shoot, or don't shoot at all. People hurt as a result, some die, or die sooner. Sucks. Resultant guilt sucks on.
My dad is a Marine. He taught me that I haven't lost until I stop shooting back.
Classes can be one or two or more steps removed from the reality, but people still know & do, & they can teach you. Ask. God will hook you up. Fxxk the politics.
Tom
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
I did ask, I guess I'm just waiting on God now.
I've heard people saying yes and no,... it can or it can't happen. Lots of people have different ideas on this, but I've never done a miracle or been with someone that actually has...
...and you'd know I am guessing - a Miracle in Manifestation would be, uhm, well,... manifest - right?
If you know any of these people by name, let me know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
This reply has me completely lost,
The fact that I agree with your points isn't of any help to me.
Whatever, It doesnt answer anything I asked.
Interesting additional information
What it doesn't mean
Nor/not act
can not be
Are we to,... I hope not
But not one thing on How to, what to, is, can do, does mean - or we can/hope so
This pretty much doesn't help me to move ahead with anything
I must be missing something
or you are just being mean to me and commenting that my question is stupid
and you are pointing out that I am doing everything wrong, that you know better,
and have decided to be smug and not share
Clarify this?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.