I've been considering the judgement that the bible records Israel delivered to the cities of Canaan in the O.T. And since my considerations are along the lines of this thread I thought I'd just throw them at the fan and see what if anything comes of them. This view of those cities I find to be HIGHLY IRONIC considering most of us have TWI pasts....
I think it is likely that these walled cities ended up being some kind of tightly controlled sexually abusive mind control religious cults with a highly rigid command structure; a tyrant on top that was most brutal of all to all his little mini-tyrants in order to keep his underlings/co-conspirators in control.
I am so glad to chat with you SS. . . . but, please take note . . . I may be VERY wrong about things. I was in a nasty cult, and although I have had the chance to spend a little time with some very educated Christians. . . . I am still trying to work these things out as well. I change my mind when I am wrong. . . . believe it or not. :)
If you are asking me why God didn't intervene in the holocaust. . . . or prevent it. . . . the simple answer is . . . . I have no idea. The Final Solution was to be the extermination of all Jews in Europe. That clearly did not happen. What did happen was that there was a much smaller population for Israel when she became a nation in 1948. That is so heartbreaking to consider, but that was a direct result of the death camps.
You have mentioned two specific events. . . . the holocaust. . . and the fighting between SOME Palestinians and Israel. BTW, the Palestinians are a warm, loving, and generous people. God loves them too.
Maybe we are asking the wrong questions? Maybe we should ask ourselves. . . . . WHY the Jewish people? Why was there a Jewish question which required a solution and did Hitler just pull this out of thin air? What is their history and does it really reflect anything spoken about in the OT. . . . . You are probably familiar with the term Diaspora.? The scattering of the Jews throughout history.
Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other.
Did you know that they were often exiled from the places they settled ? Often horribly persecuted? Centuries of persecution. It seemed to culminate with the Final Solution. . . . and then the return to Israel, which became a nation again in 1948 . . . . May 14th. (I think)The Jewish people make up a very tiny tiny percentage of the worlds population, yet they have had a tremendous presence and influence. In some places so much so . . . .when they were exiled, the nation who exiled them would suffer real hardship because they had made up a large part of their gild. . . their bankers. . . Landlords. . . . legal minds. . . and so on.
I think if you are really interested in understanding the OT. . . . it might help to understand some history of the Jewish people.
God's plan is evident in the history of mankind. . .. not obvious. . . . but I think evident. God's dealing with Israel is evident too. Just familiarize yourself with their history and work backward. Look at the Law of Return for Jews. . . look at the demographics and how they are returning. God has not finished with Israel. . . . God chose them for a purpose. . I do believe they are still God's chosen people. . . . and that purpose will be fulfilled.
Deut 7. For you are a people holy to the Lordyour God The Lord has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. 7 The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. . . . . 16 You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you.
Deut 26:18 And the LORD has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands.
Isaiah 62: 1-12
God chose them to be light to other people. It doesn't say they were better. . . . it says they were fewest, but God loved them. He is faithful to the promises He made to the Patriarchs. They were set apart for God's purpose. He actually calls them a stubborn people. I have no idea why He chose one nation to bring Himself to the others? They were to be a people for renown, praise and for glory. . . but they would not listen.
The prophets were there to warn Israel to turn back. . . I can give you a few examples. . . . but, it is basically the whole OT. 1 Kings 9 . . . Ezekiel 33:7-20 (God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked) Your fellow citizens will say the way of the Lord is not right, when it is their own way that is not right. Jer 12:17, Zeph 3:20. . . Zach 10: 1-12. . . . .
You ask if God forgot about them. No. . . but, it would help if you looked at what He said was going to happen if they turned away from Him. . . . and they did. . . time and again. . . until the final rejection of the Messiah.
It does have a happy ending. But, it has not yet happened. That is our hope too. It is still an unfolding story.
I've been considering the judgement that the bible records Israel delivered to the cities of Canaan in the O.T. And since my considerations are along the lines of this thread I thought I'd just throw them at the fan and see what if anything comes of them. This view of those cities I find to be HIGHLY IRONIC considering most of us have TWI pasts....
I think it is likely that these walled cities ended up being some kind of tightly controlled sexually abusive mind control religious cults with a highly rigid command structure; a tyrant on top that was most brutal of all to all his little mini-tyrants in order to keep his underlings/co-conspirators in control.
(Edited for the sake of clarification)
Jeff,
Lot was tainted by being in Sodom. . . .I think that is why Abraham stopped bargaining with God over Sodom . . . Here we have Lot, willing to offer up his two daughters instead of the angels. . . the daughters would have been raped and killed! He offered his own children to appease a mob. That wasn't just hospitality. . . it was desperation . . . . but, these guys could have taken care of themselves. Then we have the wife. . . who turned back to look because she couldn't go ten feet without doing the very thing she was told more than once NOT to do. . . . . . and turns out the daughters were not really all that honest either. THAT was the cream of the crop in Sodom.
When Lot and Abraham separated it doesn't really say Lot was a loser. . . . Abraham was greater in status and yielded to Lot which just revealed Abraham's character. But, Lot, seemed to have gone downhill in Sodom. . . . he was suppose to be a judge in that city. He was not very effective there. . . . yet, it still says he was righteous or right.
When God chose Israel. . . . . he told them they were not to have pity on the people that God gave over to them. He said. . . . they will be a snare for you. Sodom was a snare for Lot. He lived with these people every day.
I really think that many people who got involved in TWI. . . . especially in the early years. . . . were genuine loving Christians. . . . Jesus freaks. Yet, they were tainted by the group, influenced and ensnared by VP et al. and they were pulled away from their first love. . . Christ. Influenced. . . sometimes heavily to other gods.
In the OT it was God enacting judgment through Israel on groups like you have described. What is the difference between that and what Paul says in Corinthians about their ends being what they deserve? Everyone will be judged. . . . face their maker. . . . it is kind of the exercise of this life isn't it? Choices?
We are warned to about groups like TWI. We just don't go around watching sulfur and fire raining down on their heads. . . . yet. We don't take any joy out of any of it it either. . . .
The comparisons between the so-called New Testament and the Old Testament seem potentially very fruitful yet fraught with possible error, and the later observation unfortunately is just a simple matter of recollection for me and not simple speculation.
It is generally true I believe that the dispensationalism that Wierwille took fron Bullinger for the most part screwed up or ability to get the correct lessons from the OT. I remember that when it suited Wierwille he took upon himself to destroy the lives of men, women, and their children if he chose to. And he didn't do it with actual swords as recorded in the OT, but by controlling peoples' loyalties and manipulating their situations which were totally within the control of his iron grip. As such he presented a fearful and impressive counterfeit of how God works, and unfortunately many people still seem captivated by the man and others like him such as the folks who are a part of my former splinter group, "River Road Fellowship.
When I was in the middle of that struggle I often responded with scripture such as, "As you judge, so shall ye be judged" or other scriptures in order to try to help Barnard turn from the high minded insanity he learned from Wierwille. Now that I am out of RRF and see things more clearly than when I was in the middle of them all I see that not only do Barnard and unfortunately many of his lapdogs deserve that fate that our Lord warned them of, but Barnard's sin and insanity was far worse than I knew at the time. Now I believe that the things they did in order to break me will be returned upon their own heads with change to spare, except for (maybe) those that did not know they were doing evil may recieve fewer stripes as our Lord has promised some mercy on the ignorant evil doers.
While I find many of the OT laws to be harsh and unnecessary, I also am certain that in the prophets there is talk of and acknowledgement saying that God was fully well aware of the truth that he gave them harsh commandments that the children of Israel were not able to keep and even were plainly called "Not Good" in some respects. But IMO even these excessively harsh commandments have enough truth in them that I can usually relate them to myself in a figurative and/or spiritual sense.
As far as the future judgments promised to those who are of faith there is still plenty of direct warnings IMO that should give us pause to fear doing evil.
The people that wrote about God were scary. The cultures of the day were scary.
If God does exist, I think that IT (God) doesn't change. I would imagine that IT is a constant. So if someone tells you something scary about God, I think that it's probably wise to consider the source.
And yes, i believe in God tremendously and I do believe he exists!!!
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JeffSjo
I've been considering the judgement that the bible records Israel delivered to the cities of Canaan in the O.T. And since my considerations are along the lines of this thread I thought I'd just throw them at the fan and see what if anything comes of them. This view of those cities I find to be HIGHLY IRONIC considering most of us have TWI pasts....
I think it is likely that these walled cities ended up being some kind of tightly controlled sexually abusive mind control religious cults with a highly rigid command structure; a tyrant on top that was most brutal of all to all his little mini-tyrants in order to keep his underlings/co-conspirators in control.
(Edited for the sake of clarification)
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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geisha779
I am so glad to chat with you SS. . . . but, please take note . . . I may be VERY wrong about things. I was in a nasty cult, and although I have had the chance to spend a little time with some very educated Christians. . . . I am still trying to work these things out as well. I change my mind when I am wrong. . . . believe it or not. :)
If you are asking me why God didn't intervene in the holocaust. . . . or prevent it. . . . the simple answer is . . . . I have no idea. The Final Solution was to be the extermination of all Jews in Europe. That clearly did not happen. What did happen was that there was a much smaller population for Israel when she became a nation in 1948. That is so heartbreaking to consider, but that was a direct result of the death camps.
You have mentioned two specific events. . . . the holocaust. . . and the fighting between SOME Palestinians and Israel. BTW, the Palestinians are a warm, loving, and generous people. God loves them too.
Maybe we are asking the wrong questions? Maybe we should ask ourselves. . . . . WHY the Jewish people? Why was there a Jewish question which required a solution and did Hitler just pull this out of thin air? What is their history and does it really reflect anything spoken about in the OT. . . . . You are probably familiar with the term Diaspora.? The scattering of the Jews throughout history.
Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other.
Did you know that they were often exiled from the places they settled ? Often horribly persecuted? Centuries of persecution. It seemed to culminate with the Final Solution. . . . and then the return to Israel, which became a nation again in 1948 . . . . May 14th. (I think)The Jewish people make up a very tiny tiny percentage of the worlds population, yet they have had a tremendous presence and influence. In some places so much so . . . .when they were exiled, the nation who exiled them would suffer real hardship because they had made up a large part of their gild. . . their bankers. . . Landlords. . . . legal minds. . . and so on.
I think if you are really interested in understanding the OT. . . . it might help to understand some history of the Jewish people.
God's plan is evident in the history of mankind. . .. not obvious. . . . but I think evident. God's dealing with Israel is evident too. Just familiarize yourself with their history and work backward. Look at the Law of Return for Jews. . . look at the demographics and how they are returning. God has not finished with Israel. . . . God chose them for a purpose. . I do believe they are still God's chosen people. . . . and that purpose will be fulfilled.
Deut 7. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God The Lord has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. 7 The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. . . . . 16 You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you.
Deut 26:18 And the LORD has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands.
Isaiah 62: 1-12
God chose them to be light to other people. It doesn't say they were better. . . . it says they were fewest, but God loved them. He is faithful to the promises He made to the Patriarchs. They were set apart for God's purpose. He actually calls them a stubborn people. I have no idea why He chose one nation to bring Himself to the others? They were to be a people for renown, praise and for glory. . . but they would not listen.
The prophets were there to warn Israel to turn back. . . I can give you a few examples. . . . but, it is basically the whole OT. 1 Kings 9 . . . Ezekiel 33:7-20 (God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked) Your fellow citizens will say the way of the Lord is not right, when it is their own way that is not right. Jer 12:17, Zeph 3:20. . . Zach 10: 1-12. . . . .
You ask if God forgot about them. No. . . but, it would help if you looked at what He said was going to happen if they turned away from Him. . . . and they did. . . time and again. . . until the final rejection of the Messiah.
It does have a happy ending. But, it has not yet happened. That is our hope too. It is still an unfolding story.
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geisha779
Jeff,
Lot was tainted by being in Sodom. . . .I think that is why Abraham stopped bargaining with God over Sodom . . . Here we have Lot, willing to offer up his two daughters instead of the angels. . . the daughters would have been raped and killed! He offered his own children to appease a mob. That wasn't just hospitality. . . it was desperation . . . . but, these guys could have taken care of themselves. Then we have the wife. . . who turned back to look because she couldn't go ten feet without doing the very thing she was told more than once NOT to do. . . . . . and turns out the daughters were not really all that honest either. THAT was the cream of the crop in Sodom.
When Lot and Abraham separated it doesn't really say Lot was a loser. . . . Abraham was greater in status and yielded to Lot which just revealed Abraham's character. But, Lot, seemed to have gone downhill in Sodom. . . . he was suppose to be a judge in that city. He was not very effective there. . . . yet, it still says he was righteous or right.
When God chose Israel. . . . . he told them they were not to have pity on the people that God gave over to them. He said. . . . they will be a snare for you. Sodom was a snare for Lot. He lived with these people every day.
I really think that many people who got involved in TWI. . . . especially in the early years. . . . were genuine loving Christians. . . . Jesus freaks. Yet, they were tainted by the group, influenced and ensnared by VP et al. and they were pulled away from their first love. . . Christ. Influenced. . . sometimes heavily to other gods.
In the OT it was God enacting judgment through Israel on groups like you have described. What is the difference between that and what Paul says in Corinthians about their ends being what they deserve? Everyone will be judged. . . . face their maker. . . . it is kind of the exercise of this life isn't it? Choices?
We are warned to about groups like TWI. We just don't go around watching sulfur and fire raining down on their heads. . . . yet. We don't take any joy out of any of it it either. . . .
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JeffSjo
Hi Geisha,
The comparisons between the so-called New Testament and the Old Testament seem potentially very fruitful yet fraught with possible error, and the later observation unfortunately is just a simple matter of recollection for me and not simple speculation.
It is generally true I believe that the dispensationalism that Wierwille took fron Bullinger for the most part screwed up or ability to get the correct lessons from the OT. I remember that when it suited Wierwille he took upon himself to destroy the lives of men, women, and their children if he chose to. And he didn't do it with actual swords as recorded in the OT, but by controlling peoples' loyalties and manipulating their situations which were totally within the control of his iron grip. As such he presented a fearful and impressive counterfeit of how God works, and unfortunately many people still seem captivated by the man and others like him such as the folks who are a part of my former splinter group, "River Road Fellowship.
When I was in the middle of that struggle I often responded with scripture such as, "As you judge, so shall ye be judged" or other scriptures in order to try to help Barnard turn from the high minded insanity he learned from Wierwille. Now that I am out of RRF and see things more clearly than when I was in the middle of them all I see that not only do Barnard and unfortunately many of his lapdogs deserve that fate that our Lord warned them of, but Barnard's sin and insanity was far worse than I knew at the time. Now I believe that the things they did in order to break me will be returned upon their own heads with change to spare, except for (maybe) those that did not know they were doing evil may recieve fewer stripes as our Lord has promised some mercy on the ignorant evil doers.
While I find many of the OT laws to be harsh and unnecessary, I also am certain that in the prophets there is talk of and acknowledgement saying that God was fully well aware of the truth that he gave them harsh commandments that the children of Israel were not able to keep and even were plainly called "Not Good" in some respects. But IMO even these excessively harsh commandments have enough truth in them that I can usually relate them to myself in a figurative and/or spiritual sense.
As far as the future judgments promised to those who are of faith there is still plenty of direct warnings IMO that should give us pause to fear doing evil.
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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nandon
The people that wrote about God were scary. The cultures of the day were scary.
If God does exist, I think that IT (God) doesn't change. I would imagine that IT is a constant. So if someone tells you something scary about God, I think that it's probably wise to consider the source.
And yes, i believe in God tremendously and I do believe he exists!!!
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