this has been in my mind for a few days now and is kind of because of the discussions about the thinking processes of the way international, but something was bothering me and it just came clear to me today and it is the idea that the only truth is in the bible. really? that's a pretty stupid way of thinking once i look at it in the light of day. and how'd i get to thinking like that? i think it started with the idea that "all things that pertain unto life and godliness are contained herein" or whatever the way international said about the bible. again, really? i remember my brother used to play this "game" with people and say, "hey, want to play a game with me? ask me any question, i mean any question you can think of and i can find the answer to it right here in the bible!" at first i was impressed with it all but then i saw that he really didn't come up with any "answers" but it was more like reading the horoscopes in the newspaper every day and he was just finding verses that might work if he twisted them just so and just there and around this way a little bit. eventually the only people he "impressed" were the people that were looking to be impressed. but there's also the whole "center reference for truth" doctrine of the way international that plays in here too. i mean, come on, really? if the bible is my "center reference for truth" then i'm in a big pile of doo doo because i'm of mixed heritage and have no tribe and even though the "old testament" is not "written to me" but "for my learning" it still "teaches me" that there's a whole lot of things i should be doing on a daily basis that i'm not doing and if i did do i couldn't even keep a job! and heII if i did even just what the "new testament" demands of me then i still wouldn't be able to keep a full time job or even be able to have a place of my own or more than one pair of shoes or more than one of anything. and if my "center reference for truth" was the bible, then what about even being on the internet? the bible didn't prophecy about the internet, so what am i doing using it because it isn't "real" because it was not "written"? and this all brewed inside of my head because some yay who said to me the other day, "if people would follow the one true god and learned of his truth there wouldn't be all this crime in our city," and went on to spout off with some very way international thinking patterns and it just made me wonder how and why i ever got to thinking that the only truth was in the bible.
And so it begins. . . . each person picking their corner and staying there. I could have written most of these posts myself. . . . even people here who claim to be opposed to some kind of dogma . . . religiously and blindly cling to one in varying forms. . . . . perhaps not TWI dogma . . . but, some ideology they have adopted. We have, atheists, skeptics, New Agers, cynics, crusaders, nihilists, Pagans . . . Christians(a very few :) ) and more. . . . all enlightened and bent on enlightening the rest. . . . me included. Although in "truth" the point I try to get across here more than not is that TWI was not Christian. It had a form of Christianity, the lingo, the book. . . . but it was a perversion.
Most people here are just as extreme as they ever were in TWI. . . . even if it is in apathy. . . . .it doesn't seem many who regularly post have really moved all that far. . . . and most are reactionary positions IMO. . . . . . . TWI still holding some kind of sway over our spiritual journey. Even if it is a journey to prove a former belief system wrong. . . . I hate TWI with a true passion.
Pawtucket said something fairly profound on another thread. .. . "The Way has managed to turn many away from God. Many of these people will never even attempt a relationship with God again."
I would add the bible too . . . and that many will still try and apply the standard learned in TWI to the bible only to turn away as well. . . . it is not great feat to to find that faulty. . . it was an impossible standard and we worshiped a book. All this talk of critical thinking on here fairly bemuses me. . . . as I have really yet to really see it. . . . I see reaction. Not a slam. . . just an opinion.
I believe the bible to be true brainy. . . . but, it is just a book. . . a collection of ancient writings. . . not some mystical or magic potion. . . . an unfolding story about life, meaning, and purpose, in relationship to a fairly hidden God. Why He is hidden would probably end us up in the doctrinal. . .
To me, truth is found in the creation . . . . within relationships. . . . and also in the realities of suffering and pain in this life. . . . they are all part of the package too.
The truth about what it means to be human. That is why I look at the person the bible talks about. He shows me what it means to be human. I want to be like Him. . . . boy, do I fail.
He doesn't tell me how to "find myself" He tells me who I really am. . . . He nails it too. .. then He offers a better way.
Look around you. . . . there is good and there is evil or bad. . . . and most of the time we all just try to dwell right down the middle.
I love the bible. . . . not as an object of worship or something that must be held above all else. . . I hold it in esteem because it offers me healing in the knowledge of Jesus and what He shows us about being human and what life can be. It offers me hope. . . .
love the bible. . . . not as an object of worship or something that must be held above all else. . . I hold it in esteem because it offers me healing in the knowledge of Jesus and what He shows us about being human and what life can be. It offers me hope. . . .
To me that seems like a more wholesome attitude and honest approach to what the bible has to offer. I can respect that over the "I have no friends when it comes to the word, I'm right, your wrong, I have the bumpersticker and the WWJD wrist bracelet....and the t-shirt..and the nametag--so your opinions are crap" outlook.
There is no doubt that the bible is filled with marvelous stories, life lessons, poetry etc that could be ascribed as some of the best written down by humans. It can be inspirational and uplifting in its best moments --but I really dont give a flying f**k where the commas are supposed to go, or endless battles over minor points which to me seem like ego games to elevate one person above another--which to me misses the whole point of anything it may have to offer.
To me, and I realize that its just me, once it gets labeled as the one and only truth, excluding everything else, youve lost me and I'll go dancing on my merry way as it then becomes seperated out from the human experience and may as well be a museum piece or a dusty dead relic in a glass display case--the exclusive refuge of the few in the know or who claim to be in the know.
Life is symphonic and near boundless in its scope and (doesnt the bible say somewhere) wisdom speaks from the rooftops?
I cant see shutting off the valve of inflow that constantly comes from all directions to have one exclusive source to the detriment of all others.
I spent alot of time with the Bible in the past, not all of it was bad-some of it I really loved. Most of it is still in there percolating somewhere--sorting the wheat from the chaff so to speak. I was so cocksure of myself when I was dead wrong that I am very hesitant to go down anything resembling that route again.
I can see the possibility of how it could bring healing and hope if someone were willing to make the leap of faith necessary but having leaped and crashed like Wile E. Coyote one too many times Im just not going to jump off that cliff again.
It can be hopeful at times even without the leap, if only to read what is possible for average and subaverage humans like myself.
Whether or not it is truth, contains some truth, or is just amixture of great literature I really dont know--so I leave it at that for now.
all enlightened and bent on enlightening the rest.
I hope I dont come across like that..The older I get the less I really know about anything at all..
which in another manner of speaking is the real truth---Im not ashamed to admit Im utterly clueless on a cosmic scale but I am doing the best I can. I dont think that there is anyway that anyone can know for sure at least I sure can't
At this point I have far more questions than answers, and believe it or not I have learned to like life much more that way
how many times have we seen a person pick up a bible say take a verse and say here is what your doing that is wrong here is your problem here is the reason why you suffer.
well
I know some very serious christians who suffer and commint sin. and just yesterday they had the bible in their hand.
I do not want to take a book and hurt people.
if the truth is your boyfriend left you and your hurt about it.
does it help anyone to say geez the bible says sex outside of marriage is sin and....you deserve this says so god almighty,
or I do not do it and I have no problems. Im better than you attitude.
I worked with a guy and Im silent about my life at work.. but he would grill me about my marriage and life personal stuff and I finaly in a very tired moment told him I was never arried (Im divorced) to get rid of him.
so he knows I have children So one day he blurts out well something is wrong with me concerning sex, meaning about the bible standard with the fact I had sex without being married.
I couldnt believe it his entire position as a christian was to find an area the person had sinned in life and beat the person about.
he carried a bible . His wife left him for cheating on him. alot of probems he told to have another tell their issues and he could bring out the bible and say this and that.
Im a sinner so are you line of crap. Why? misery and gossip I guess I really dk.
/I do no think that is why God wrote the book. I think people can use it as a weapon to hurt others and that is far removed from gods will for His precious children.
I hope I dont come across like that..The older I get the less I really know about anything at all..
which in another manner of speaking is the real truth---Im not ashamed to admit Im utterly clueless on a cosmic scale but I am doing the best I can. I dont think that there is anyway that anyone can know for sure at least I sure can't
At this point I have far more questions than answers, and believe it or not I have learned to like life much more that way
You? No way. . . . I am thrilled whenever you share any insight into yourself and how you think. . . . but, then again, I have a tiny advantage of knowing just a bit about the way you live as a person. I am actually a big fan.
I love your attitude. . . . and I highly doubt you would turn away even a rabid dog from your door if they turned up looking for help!
Yesterday I talked to another ex-way person who has a different reaction to the bible than me. . . . she is one of the most grounded and sensible people. . . . Christian or not. . . I have chatted with in a long time. She and her significant other are just so darn likable. So together.
I have consigned no one to outer darkness lately, it was an observation. . . and it struck me as funny on here. . . all the usual suspects. . . all the usual worldview responses. :) Me too though, I include myself.
Some I think are really crusading to enlighten others here to their worldview. . . . but, I do it too. Just seems some are so easily swayed to embrace one thing to the next to the next. . . without some critical thinking. My opinion anyway.
I really empathize with ex-way. It was a pretty ugly thing to belong to or try to overcome. . . . . and this is about the only place I can go to talk about it. . . . I don't tell anyone in "Polite" society I was ever in a cult. . . .. the few times I did. . . . It became the topic and everything I said. . . . I could see being weighed against that freakish bit of info.
I have consigned no one to outer darkness lately...
I believe the bible to be true brainy. . . . but, it is just a book. . . a collection of ancient writings. . . not some mystical or magic potion. . . . an unfolding story about life, meaning, and purpose, in relationship to a fairly hidden God. Why He is hidden would probably end us up in the doctrinal. . .
To me, truth is found in the creation . . . . within relationships. . . . and also in the realities of suffering and pain in this life. . . . they are all part of the package too.
The truth about what it means to be human. That is why I look at the person the bible talks about. He shows me what it means to be human. I want to be like Him. . . . boy, do I fail.
Im glad to see Im not cast into the outer darkness (again). I just hate that when that happens.
Interesting observation about the exway folks that you met. I may be wrong but there is something to me at least that seems very balanced about things that are supposedly called true.Maybe its a yinyangy type thing or something....
I'll give anyone their say but I have to admit I am always a little wary of anyone that gets too extreme on any end--no matter how well intended or sincere they seem to be. Some (not all but some) of the time people do fine then given an opportunity rocket off into the stratosphere of bizarreness and lose me, which to me usually is more likely to indicate some personal imbalance rather than some special corner on "truth".
To be fair its not just the religious and spiritual who can be weird or out there at times to me but just about anyone. There is alot of chaos out there.A lot.
Im sure most of the time Im just as weird as the next person. I find my balance I lose it I find it again, I lose it -lather-rinse and repeat just like sisyphus
-most of time life is like being on a rolling river in a jerking boat with a few fleeting tranquil glimpsing moments if Im honest
Another facet of this to consider is the idea that everything IN the Bible must be true. (once you understand the figures of speech, cultural idioms, yada, yada and more yada.) It's this idea that "everything fits like a hand in a glove; if even one thing doesn't fit, the whole thing falls to pieces." That doesn't leave much room for personal exploration and adventure, does it?
The truth about what it means to be human. That is why I look at the person the bible talks about. He shows me what it means to be human. I want to be like Him. . . . boy, do I fail.
Everyone fails -- some more miserably than others.
Jesus told us,
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
(Luke 6:27-29, NIV)
Who practices this? Who even tries? Survival is a basic instinct, even among Christians.
What about this from Joshua 10 on the battle against Gibeon?
As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.
(Joshua 10:11, NIV)
The Lord helped avenge the Israelites time and again. And he didn't fool around -- most of the time He made sure that everyone (including women and children) was killed, even those that got away.
So...
Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek? According to Jesus or according to the LORD?
I know this is off-topic but your comment about emulating Jesus caught my attention.
Is there a thread that discusses the God of the OT? Because I have lots of questions.
To me, truth is found in the creation . . . . within relationships. . . . and also in the realities of suffering and pain in this life. . . . they are all part of the package too.
It won't take much more of these kinds of posts until this thread ends up in the Doctrinal Forum because this is not per se a Christian site. However your statement quoted above begins to find (the) truth for every individual. Signs which point to the truth are where you find them...but you can pretty much tell what or who is Christian by the way they live their lives. We're all different...abilities....personalities....etc. but we were given two essential laws: love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength - - and your neighbor as yourself. As long as that's what you're doing you're right on target. It doesn't matter if you write or perform music, practice medicine, research science run a vegetarian restaurant or tailor suits "for a living" and ride motorcycles for fun!
Truth is such a big category; and so small at the same time, that none of us as an individual can define it altogether. It is what it is and if we're trucking along with it, it will be made plain (twi called it "manifest") according to how we are displaying it as individuals.
Is there a thread that discusses the God of the OT? Because I have lots of questions.
If there is, it's probably in the doctrinal forum.
If not, you are welcome to start one.
Now, as to the TWI explanation of the discrepancy between God of the OT and God of the NT.
Several aspects of TWI theology come into play. First, in the PFAL class we were taught that the OT was not written to us but was beneficial for our learning. The example VPW used was a letter written directly to you as opposed to one that was written to someone else. The idea here is that the letter written to someone else may still hold valuable information even though it is not directed at you personally. In order to understand this concept, you need to understand that Wierwille was a "dispensationalist" His particular version of dispensationalism subdivided time into seven distinct dispensations, or "administrations" as he called them. (Original Paradise, Patriarchal, Law, Christ, Grace, Revelation, Final Paradise.) He maintained that we are currently in the dispensation of Grace.
The second concept is that of the OT being divided into three distinct sections., The Law, The Prophets and Psalms.
The third concept is that Wierwille maintained there are only three kinds of people in God's eyes, The Jews, The Gentiles and The Church of God.
And finally, Wierwille taught that people in the OT could not understand "spiritual matters" because they were only body and soul. Once the new birth became available, he said, Man could now access God directly via the "Christ in him". ("the threefold man of body/soul/spirit") Thus, according to this concept, God had no choice but to speak to OT people in ways that could be understood by their non-spiritual, carnal minds.
This, supposedly, explains the contradictions between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
"Truth" is a word that I seldom use, either in my thoughts or conversation. And I tend to back away slowly anytime anyone claims to know The Truth or wants to tell me where I can find it.
Now, as to the TWI explanation of the discrepancy between God of the OT and God of the NT.
Several aspects of TWI theology come into play. First, in the PFAL class we were taught that the OT was not written to us but was beneficial for our learning. The example VPW used was a letter written directly to you as opposed to one that was written to someone else. The idea here is that the letter written to someone else may still hold valuable information even though it is not directed at you personally. In order to understand this concept, you need to understand that Wierwille was a "dispensationalist" His particular version of dispensationalism subdivided time into seven distinct dispensations, or "administrations" as he called them. (Original Paradise, Patriarchal, Law, Christ, Grace, Revelation, Final Paradise.) He maintained that we are currently in the dispensation of Grace.
The second concept is that of the OT being divided into three distinct sections., The Law, The Prophets and Psalms.
The third concept is that Wierwille maintained there are only three kinds of people in God's eyes, The Jews, The Gentiles and The Church of God.
And finally, Wierwille taught that people in the OT could not understand "spiritual matters" because they were only body and soul. Once the new birth became available, he said, Man could now access God directly via the "Christ in him". ("the threefold man of body/soul/spirit") Thus, according to this concept, God had no choice but to speak to OT people in ways that could be understood by their non-spiritual, carnal minds.
Hoops, hoops hoops and more hoops ----when your done jumping make sure you have a brass ring in one hand and your fingers crossed on the other-- while your at it add a healthy(???) dose of blind faith too .... Mix well in a bowl and it yields a lifetime of confusion subservience and endless more hoop jumpimg
I'll requote my own self
really dont give a flying f**k where the commas are supposed to go, or endless battles over minor points which to me seem like ego games to elevate one person above another--which to me misses the whole point of anything it may have to offer.
I was enjoying this thread but if it goes "doctrinal" I'll be seeing you.
Jesus told us,
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
(Luke 6:27-29, NIV)
Who practices this? Who even tries? Survival is a basic instinct, even among Christians.
?? Just because its not in full view at the moment doesnt mean that there arent and havent been many christians that have and do take this verse seriously. Now and through history many groups and individuals have been non militant and have if necessary put themselves in harms way. Christian history is full of martyrs that have died rather than taking up arms or cared for thier oppressors and turned them. There are many selfless people in this world.
I dont find that hard to believe, what I don't get from the bible believers standpoint is the opposite--Those that will shoot or threaten anyone on sight for minor infractions yet profess to follow the so called prince of peace....that makes absolutely no sense to me at all
Oops. Didn't mean to make this doctrinal. I just wanted to answer soul searchers question. Some of this stuff seems pretty basic to most of us but I can see where a "newbie" might be very confused.
I understand---Its just me (or maybe not) I have been spending years trying to push all the extraneous stuff out of my brain and to NOT see the bible through Wierwillian hoops, filters and lenses and try to enjoy it if I can for what it is.
Whenever I hear that stuff its a trigger for me to 'run like the wind'----its like jumping down a rabbit hole to who the heck knows where--I know (beyond a shadow of a doubt ....ha...with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision even )its not good for me ---at all--I'd just as soon lick rusty razor blades than attempt to analyze the bible again as if it were some sort of science experiment to dissect...but thats just me
mstar I think we all feel the same way. Certain terms and phrases still make me feel like I'm hearing fingernails on a chalk board. I burned every item I owned that even reminded me of twi.
I didn't get into twi until I was nearly 40. I'd been raised in a very conservative church and much of my life, all my life, was structured around it. I do not know why or how I was suckered in....but I do know that there was some truth there....plenty of truth.
When we finally saw the evil there, and left it.....most of us tended to leave everything "biblical" behind with it and I believe that was a mistake. It surely was a natural and human reaction, but we tossed the truth out with the Drambuie and the motor-coach and the 15% giving level.
I was even afraid to pick up a bible since so much of their droning was drilled into my thinking. After a while thoughts from my early training and those from twi's crapola began popping into my mind and I finally had to go back and review what I knew or thought I knew. One of the areas in scripture which twi sort of ignored was the gospels so I figured that would be a good bet. I enjoyed them.....it was more or less easy reading.
One time as I was riveted in John I came across Jesus prayer for us just before his betrayal. (end of ch 16 through 17.) He asked his Father to keep us from evil (the idea of protection) and that we would be with him where he is after the upcoming events (of course this is paraphrased), Doesn't that sound like "sanctification" and "seated in the heavenlies" and "at the right hand of God"...which were twi's terms for them. That was a big aha moment for me.
Others who've gone back to try to get to the truth perhaps have had their own "aha moments" but the general principle is the same.
TWI preached "bible worship" and "leadership worship" of a sort with an absent Christ. They had to keep him absent or we would have seen their lies and their gig would have been up.
Now, as to the TWI explanation of the discrepancy between God of the OT and God of the NT.
Several aspects of TWI theology come into play. First, in the PFAL class we were taught that the OT was not written to us but was beneficial for our learning. The example VPW used was a letter written directly to you as opposed to one that was written to someone else. The idea here is that the letter written to someone else may still hold valuable information even though it is not directed at you personally. In order to understand this concept, you need to understand that Wierwille was a "dispensationalist" His particular version of dispensationalism subdivided time into seven distinct dispensations, or "administrations" as he called them. (Original Paradise, Patriarchal, Law, Christ, Grace, Revelation, Final Paradise.) He maintained that we are currently in the dispensation of Grace.
The second concept is that of the OT being divided into three distinct sections., The Law, The Prophets and Psalms.
The third concept is that Wierwille maintained there are only three kinds of people in God's eyes, The Jews, The Gentiles and The Church of God.
And finally, Wierwille taught that people in the OT could not understand "spiritual matters" because they were only body and soul. Once the new birth became available, he said, Man could now access God directly via the "Christ in him". ("the threefold man of body/soul/spirit") Thus, according to this concept, God had no choice but to speak to OT people in ways that could be understood by their non-spiritual, carnal minds.
This, supposedly, explains the contradictions between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
I was recently introduced to those "teachings" on classes from CES/STF and CFFM and I have to tell you: it doesn't do it for me as far as explaining the difference between God's behavior in the OT vesus the NT.
And I wonder how much of what you just described is original WAY doctrine and how much of it came from other places? The dispensationalism, for example (along with four crucified and six denials) comes from Bullinger, no?
For me the turn to a non-theist mindset was not so much a reaction to Wierwillism, but simply a return to what made the most sense to me. I'd pretty much determined The Bible - and religion in general - to be wishful thinking run amok long before I ever got involved with WayWorld. If it hadn't been for the girl with the nice butt (and a green card), I could've lived out my apathetic agnostic lifestyle with impunity.
The only attraction I had to WayWorld dogma (other than the urge to fornicate with the young lady who was pitching their line to me) was the idea that they had a unique take on The Bible, some special knowledge that nobody else had, and they had PROOF that it was indeed God's Word and was the final authority on any farking thing. Once it FINALLY dawned on me that they were as full of B.S. as any other religion, well, the course was obvious.
And a rhetorical question: If you were to give up on the notion that The Bible were indeed GOD'S PERFECT WORD, and view it simply as the collection of really diverse writings that it most surely is, don't all those perplexing questions of "why doesn't that agree with this, or that with that, or Old with New, etc., etc." just vanish? Why do the simple, obvious answers have to be wrong?
I was recently introduced to those "teachings" on classes from CES/STF and CFFM and I have to tell you: it doesn't do it for me as far as explaining the difference between God's behavior in the OT vesus the NT.
And I wonder how much of what you just described is original WAY doctrine and how much of it came from other places? The dispensationalism, for example (along with four crucified and six denials) comes from Bullinger, no?
LOL Soul Searcher none of it is original way doctrine ... IT all comes from somewhere else but it was all mixed together in an evil weirwille stew and presented as Original TWI stuff and became the Dogma of TWI .. Most of us were young and had no Idea these came from somewhere else.
I started a topic in the doctrinal so that maybe someone can help you with your questions. Don't think I am too qualified, but I gave it a go. . . . that way brainy's topic doesn't get sent below. :)
how many times have we seen a person pick up a bible say take a verse and say here is what your doing that is wrong here is your problem here is the reason why you suffer.
I remember a great conversation I had with a devout chan buddhist about suffering. He was expounding on the reason for suffering, which he said they believe is attachment to things, to unrealistic expectations, ideas, emotions. Their path to overcoming suffering is to recognize and live higher than these types of attachments.
He had great respect for my Christianity. He said buddhism didn't teach you about God or Jesus, but about yourself. I can see value in his teachings and belifs
For me. . . . truth is a person . . . I learn about Him in the scriptures. . . what I see blows me away more than anything I have ever heard before. How He interacted with people, loved them, understood them, and reached out to heal them. . . moves me to worship and praise.
That is my truth. . . .and I have looked around. . .I am now one of those sold out committed Jesus freaks. . . who are rare to emerge from the Way.
Oh sarcasm. . . . . how unique around here. . . . great way to contribute to the topic! As to your question . . . sure you can polish my halo. . . come on over. . . my silver is looking dull too.
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waysider
PFAL It wasn't just a class. It was an indoctrination to fundamentalism.
mstar1
Im not one of those people that claims the bible is my only source for truth anymore. I happened across THIS ARTICLE that not only gives me something to think about but an abundance of pretty good qu
penworks
Original question of this thread:...”but something was bothering me and it just came clear to me today and it is the idea that the only truth is in the bible. really? that's a pretty stupid way of thi
geisha779
And so it begins. . . . each person picking their corner and staying there. I could have written most of these posts myself. . . . even people here who claim to be opposed to some kind of dogma . . . religiously and blindly cling to one in varying forms. . . . . perhaps not TWI dogma . . . but, some ideology they have adopted. We have, atheists, skeptics, New Agers, cynics, crusaders, nihilists, Pagans . . . Christians(a very few :) ) and more. . . . all enlightened and bent on enlightening the rest. . . . me included. Although in "truth" the point I try to get across here more than not is that TWI was not Christian. It had a form of Christianity, the lingo, the book. . . . but it was a perversion.
Most people here are just as extreme as they ever were in TWI. . . . even if it is in apathy. . . . .it doesn't seem many who regularly post have really moved all that far. . . . and most are reactionary positions IMO. . . . . . . TWI still holding some kind of sway over our spiritual journey. Even if it is a journey to prove a former belief system wrong. . . . I hate TWI with a true passion.
Pawtucket said something fairly profound on another thread. .. . "The Way has managed to turn many away from God. Many of these people will never even attempt a relationship with God again."
I would add the bible too . . . and that many will still try and apply the standard learned in TWI to the bible only to turn away as well. . . . it is not great feat to to find that faulty. . . it was an impossible standard and we worshiped a book. All this talk of critical thinking on here fairly bemuses me. . . . as I have really yet to really see it. . . . I see reaction. Not a slam. . . just an opinion.
I believe the bible to be true brainy. . . . but, it is just a book. . . a collection of ancient writings. . . not some mystical or magic potion. . . . an unfolding story about life, meaning, and purpose, in relationship to a fairly hidden God. Why He is hidden would probably end us up in the doctrinal. . .
To me, truth is found in the creation . . . . within relationships. . . . and also in the realities of suffering and pain in this life. . . . they are all part of the package too.
The truth about what it means to be human. That is why I look at the person the bible talks about. He shows me what it means to be human. I want to be like Him. . . . boy, do I fail.
He doesn't tell me how to "find myself" He tells me who I really am. . . . He nails it too. .. then He offers a better way.
Look around you. . . . there is good and there is evil or bad. . . . and most of the time we all just try to dwell right down the middle.
I love the bible. . . . not as an object of worship or something that must be held above all else. . . I hold it in esteem because it offers me healing in the knowledge of Jesus and what He shows us about being human and what life can be. It offers me hope. . . .
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mstar1
To me that seems like a more wholesome attitude and honest approach to what the bible has to offer. I can respect that over the "I have no friends when it comes to the word, I'm right, your wrong, I have the bumpersticker and the WWJD wrist bracelet....and the t-shirt..and the nametag--so your opinions are crap" outlook.
There is no doubt that the bible is filled with marvelous stories, life lessons, poetry etc that could be ascribed as some of the best written down by humans. It can be inspirational and uplifting in its best moments --but I really dont give a flying f**k where the commas are supposed to go, or endless battles over minor points which to me seem like ego games to elevate one person above another--which to me misses the whole point of anything it may have to offer.
To me, and I realize that its just me, once it gets labeled as the one and only truth, excluding everything else, youve lost me and I'll go dancing on my merry way as it then becomes seperated out from the human experience and may as well be a museum piece or a dusty dead relic in a glass display case--the exclusive refuge of the few in the know or who claim to be in the know.
Life is symphonic and near boundless in its scope and (doesnt the bible say somewhere) wisdom speaks from the rooftops?
I cant see shutting off the valve of inflow that constantly comes from all directions to have one exclusive source to the detriment of all others.
I spent alot of time with the Bible in the past, not all of it was bad-some of it I really loved. Most of it is still in there percolating somewhere--sorting the wheat from the chaff so to speak. I was so cocksure of myself when I was dead wrong that I am very hesitant to go down anything resembling that route again.
I can see the possibility of how it could bring healing and hope if someone were willing to make the leap of faith necessary but having leaped and crashed like Wile E. Coyote one too many times Im just not going to jump off that cliff again.
It can be hopeful at times even without the leap, if only to read what is possible for average and subaverage humans like myself.
Whether or not it is truth, contains some truth, or is just amixture of great literature I really dont know--so I leave it at that for now.
I hope I dont come across like that..The older I get the less I really know about anything at all..
which in another manner of speaking is the real truth---Im not ashamed to admit Im utterly clueless on a cosmic scale but I am doing the best I can. I dont think that there is anyway that anyone can know for sure at least I sure can't
At this point I have far more questions than answers, and believe it or not I have learned to like life much more that way
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pond
how many times have we seen a person pick up a bible say take a verse and say here is what your doing that is wrong here is your problem here is the reason why you suffer.
well
I know some very serious christians who suffer and commint sin. and just yesterday they had the bible in their hand.
I do not want to take a book and hurt people.
if the truth is your boyfriend left you and your hurt about it.
does it help anyone to say geez the bible says sex outside of marriage is sin and....you deserve this says so god almighty,
or I do not do it and I have no problems. Im better than you attitude.
I worked with a guy and Im silent about my life at work.. but he would grill me about my marriage and life personal stuff and I finaly in a very tired moment told him I was never arried (Im divorced) to get rid of him.
so he knows I have children So one day he blurts out well something is wrong with me concerning sex, meaning about the bible standard with the fact I had sex without being married.
I couldnt believe it his entire position as a christian was to find an area the person had sinned in life and beat the person about.
he carried a bible . His wife left him for cheating on him. alot of probems he told to have another tell their issues and he could bring out the bible and say this and that.
Im a sinner so are you line of crap. Why? misery and gossip I guess I really dk.
/I do no think that is why God wrote the book. I think people can use it as a weapon to hurt others and that is far removed from gods will for His precious children.
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geisha779
You? No way. . . . I am thrilled whenever you share any insight into yourself and how you think. . . . but, then again, I have a tiny advantage of knowing just a bit about the way you live as a person. I am actually a big fan.
I love your attitude. . . . and I highly doubt you would turn away even a rabid dog from your door if they turned up looking for help!
Yesterday I talked to another ex-way person who has a different reaction to the bible than me. . . . she is one of the most grounded and sensible people. . . . Christian or not. . . I have chatted with in a long time. She and her significant other are just so darn likable. So together.
I have consigned no one to outer darkness lately, it was an observation. . . and it struck me as funny on here. . . all the usual suspects. . . all the usual worldview responses. :) Me too though, I include myself.
Some I think are really crusading to enlighten others here to their worldview. . . . but, I do it too. Just seems some are so easily swayed to embrace one thing to the next to the next. . . without some critical thinking. My opinion anyway.
I really empathize with ex-way. It was a pretty ugly thing to belong to or try to overcome. . . . . and this is about the only place I can go to talk about it. . . . I don't tell anyone in "Polite" society I was ever in a cult. . . .. the few times I did. . . . It became the topic and everything I said. . . . I could see being weighed against that freakish bit of info.
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Oakspear
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mstar1
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Im glad to see Im not cast into the outer darkness (again).
I just hate that when that happens.
Interesting observation about the exway folks that you met. I may be wrong but there is something to me at least that seems very balanced about things that are supposedly called true.Maybe its a yinyangy type thing or something....
I'll give anyone their say but I have to admit I am always a little wary of anyone that gets too extreme on any end--no matter how well intended or sincere they seem to be. Some (not all but some) of the time people do fine then given an opportunity rocket off into the stratosphere of bizarreness and lose me, which to me usually is more likely to indicate some personal imbalance rather than some special corner on "truth".
To be fair its not just the religious and spiritual who can be weird or out there at times to me but just about anyone. There is alot of chaos out there.A lot.
Im sure most of the time Im just as weird as the next person. I find my balance I lose it I find it again, I lose it -lather-rinse and repeat just like sisyphus
-most of time life is like being on a rolling river in a jerking boat with a few fleeting tranquil glimpsing moments if Im honest
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waysider
Another facet of this to consider is the idea that everything IN the Bible must be true. (once you understand the figures of speech, cultural idioms, yada, yada and more yada.) It's this idea that "everything fits like a hand in a glove; if even one thing doesn't fit, the whole thing falls to pieces." That doesn't leave much room for personal exploration and adventure, does it?
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soul searcher
Everyone fails -- some more miserably than others.
Jesus told us,
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
(Luke 6:27-29, NIV)
Who practices this? Who even tries? Survival is a basic instinct, even among Christians.
What about this from Joshua 10 on the battle against Gibeon?
As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the LORD hurled large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.
(Joshua 10:11, NIV)
The Lord helped avenge the Israelites time and again. And he didn't fool around -- most of the time He made sure that everyone (including women and children) was killed, even those that got away.
So...
Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek? According to Jesus or according to the LORD?
I know this is off-topic but your comment about emulating Jesus caught my attention.
Is there a thread that discusses the God of the OT? Because I have lots of questions.
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krys
It won't take much more of these kinds of posts until this thread ends up in the Doctrinal Forum because this is not per se a Christian site. However your statement quoted above begins to find (the) truth for every individual. Signs which point to the truth are where you find them...but you can pretty much tell what or who is Christian by the way they live their lives. We're all different...abilities....personalities....etc. but we were given two essential laws: love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength - - and your neighbor as yourself. As long as that's what you're doing you're right on target. It doesn't matter if you write or perform music, practice medicine, research science run a vegetarian restaurant or tailor suits "for a living" and ride motorcycles for fun!
Truth is such a big category; and so small at the same time, that none of us as an individual can define it altogether. It is what it is and if we're trucking along with it, it will be made plain (twi called it "manifest") according to how we are displaying it as individuals.
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waysider
If there is, it's probably in the doctrinal forum.
If not, you are welcome to start one.
Now, as to the TWI explanation of the discrepancy between God of the OT and God of the NT.
Several aspects of TWI theology come into play. First, in the PFAL class we were taught that the OT was not written to us but was beneficial for our learning. The example VPW used was a letter written directly to you as opposed to one that was written to someone else. The idea here is that the letter written to someone else may still hold valuable information even though it is not directed at you personally. In order to understand this concept, you need to understand that Wierwille was a "dispensationalist" His particular version of dispensationalism subdivided time into seven distinct dispensations, or "administrations" as he called them. (Original Paradise, Patriarchal, Law, Christ, Grace, Revelation, Final Paradise.) He maintained that we are currently in the dispensation of Grace.
The second concept is that of the OT being divided into three distinct sections., The Law, The Prophets and Psalms.
The third concept is that Wierwille maintained there are only three kinds of people in God's eyes, The Jews, The Gentiles and The Church of God.
And finally, Wierwille taught that people in the OT could not understand "spiritual matters" because they were only body and soul. Once the new birth became available, he said, Man could now access God directly via the "Christ in him". ("the threefold man of body/soul/spirit") Thus, according to this concept, God had no choice but to speak to OT people in ways that could be understood by their non-spiritual, carnal minds.
This, supposedly, explains the contradictions between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
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Jim
"Truth" is a word that I seldom use, either in my thoughts or conversation. And I tend to back away slowly anytime anyone claims to know The Truth or wants to tell me where I can find it.
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mstar1
Hoops, hoops hoops and more hoops ----when your done jumping make sure you have a brass ring in one hand and your fingers crossed on the other-- while your at it add a healthy(???) dose of blind faith too .... Mix well in a bowl and it yields a lifetime of confusion subservience and endless more hoop jumpimg
I'll requote my own self
I was enjoying this thread but if it goes "doctrinal" I'll be seeing you.
?? Just because its not in full view at the moment doesnt mean that there arent and havent been many christians that have and do take this verse seriously. Now and through history many groups and individuals have been non militant and have if necessary put themselves in harms way. Christian history is full of martyrs that have died rather than taking up arms or cared for thier oppressors and turned them. There are many selfless people in this world.
I dont find that hard to believe, what I don't get from the bible believers standpoint is the opposite--Those that will shoot or threaten anyone on sight for minor infractions yet profess to follow the so called prince of peace....that makes absolutely no sense to me at all
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waysider
Oops. Didn't mean to make this doctrinal. I just wanted to answer soul searchers question. Some of this stuff seems pretty basic to most of us but I can see where a "newbie" might be very confused.
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year2027
God first
hi brainfixed
we are fools when we find Truth in bible only but we also fools when we do not find any truth in the written of the bible
how can we not be fools by face the real truth of things
wisdom comes with time
and you are a wise friend
but your also a fool like me
thanks
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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mstar1
I understand---Its just me (or maybe not) I have been spending years trying to push all the extraneous stuff out of my brain and to NOT see the bible through Wierwillian hoops, filters and lenses and try to enjoy it if I can for what it is.
Whenever I hear that stuff its a trigger for me to 'run like the wind'----its like jumping down a rabbit hole to who the heck knows where--I know (beyond a shadow of a doubt ....ha...with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision even
)its not good for me ---at all--I'd just as soon lick rusty razor blades than attempt to analyze the bible again as if it were some sort of science experiment to dissect...but thats just me
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krys
mstar I think we all feel the same way. Certain terms and phrases still make me feel like I'm hearing fingernails on a chalk board. I burned every item I owned that even reminded me of twi.
I didn't get into twi until I was nearly 40. I'd been raised in a very conservative church and much of my life, all my life, was structured around it. I do not know why or how I was suckered in....but I do know that there was some truth there....plenty of truth.
When we finally saw the evil there, and left it.....most of us tended to leave everything "biblical" behind with it and I believe that was a mistake. It surely was a natural and human reaction, but we tossed the truth out with the Drambuie and the motor-coach and the 15% giving level.
I was even afraid to pick up a bible since so much of their droning was drilled into my thinking. After a while thoughts from my early training and those from twi's crapola began popping into my mind and I finally had to go back and review what I knew or thought I knew. One of the areas in scripture which twi sort of ignored was the gospels so I figured that would be a good bet. I enjoyed them.....it was more or less easy reading.
One time as I was riveted in John I came across Jesus prayer for us just before his betrayal. (end of ch 16 through 17.) He asked his Father to keep us from evil (the idea of protection) and that we would be with him where he is after the upcoming events (of course this is paraphrased), Doesn't that sound like "sanctification" and "seated in the heavenlies" and "at the right hand of God"...which were twi's terms for them. That was a big aha moment for me.
Others who've gone back to try to get to the truth perhaps have had their own "aha moments" but the general principle is the same.
TWI preached "bible worship" and "leadership worship" of a sort with an absent Christ. They had to keep him absent or we would have seen their lies and their gig would have been up.
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soul searcher
I was recently introduced to those "teachings" on classes from CES/STF and CFFM and I have to tell you: it doesn't do it for me as far as explaining the difference between God's behavior in the OT vesus the NT.
And I wonder how much of what you just described is original WAY doctrine and how much of it came from other places? The dispensationalism, for example (along with four crucified and six denials) comes from Bullinger, no?
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George Aar
For me the turn to a non-theist mindset was not so much a reaction to Wierwillism, but simply a return to what made the most sense to me. I'd pretty much determined The Bible - and religion in general - to be wishful thinking run amok long before I ever got involved with WayWorld. If it hadn't been for the girl with the nice butt (and a green card), I could've lived out my apathetic agnostic lifestyle with impunity.
The only attraction I had to WayWorld dogma (other than the urge to fornicate with the young lady who was pitching their line to me) was the idea that they had a unique take on The Bible, some special knowledge that nobody else had, and they had PROOF that it was indeed God's Word and was the final authority on any farking thing. Once it FINALLY dawned on me that they were as full of B.S. as any other religion, well, the course was obvious.
And a rhetorical question: If you were to give up on the notion that The Bible were indeed GOD'S PERFECT WORD, and view it simply as the collection of really diverse writings that it most surely is, don't all those perplexing questions of "why doesn't that agree with this, or that with that, or Old with New, etc., etc." just vanish? Why do the simple, obvious answers have to be wrong?
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krys
Actually, George, usually it is the simplest or least complex answer which turns out to be the truth.
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leafytwiglet
LOL Soul Searcher none of it is original way doctrine ... IT all comes from somewhere else but it was all mixed together in an evil weirwille stew and presented as Original TWI stuff and became the Dogma of TWI .. Most of us were young and had no Idea these came from somewhere else.
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geisha779
Soul Searcher,
I started a topic in the doctrinal so that maybe someone can help you with your questions. Don't think I am too qualified, but I gave it a go. . . . that way brainy's topic doesn't get sent below. :)
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chockfull
I remember a great conversation I had with a devout chan buddhist about suffering. He was expounding on the reason for suffering, which he said they believe is attachment to things, to unrealistic expectations, ideas, emotions. Their path to overcoming suffering is to recognize and live higher than these types of attachments.
He had great respect for my Christianity. He said buddhism didn't teach you about God or Jesus, but about yourself. I can see value in his teachings and belifs
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oenophile
May I polish your halo?
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geisha779
Oh sarcasm. . . . . how unique around here. . . . great way to contribute to the topic! As to your question . . . sure you can polish my halo. . . come on over. . . my silver is looking dull too.
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